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If lion and tiger share same place what would be their surviving strategy?

India sanjay Offline
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#1

If lion and tiger share same place what would be their surviving strategies ?

This thread may seems controversial and do not fit according to WildFact rules, but we suggest read below before reaching on any conclusion. Aim of this thread is not to compare Lion and Tiger on Vs fight base on hypothetical assumptions.

What we are trying to do is to know your thoughts in this hypothetical scenario where if Lions and Tigers would have introduced to share same place in today's world with each other? So considering this, there would be 2 possible scenario


1. Tiger living in Africa's plain land along with Cheetah, Leopard, Spotted hyena, Wild dogs and their main competitor Pride of Lions. If we ignore scientific constraint in this assumption then what is your thought on this. Following Questions arises


*This image is copyright of its original author


a) How do will tiger do against group of lions. Is their any chance of surviving solitary tiger just like leopard? We know that tiger can not run faster than lions, we know they can not climb up tree, we know that the tiger has no chance of surviving against gang of lions if caught alone.

b) If some how they able to survive, what tactics they will adopt?

c) What animal they hunt most out of the available prey in African plains ? Will they compete for same food as the lion ?

d) How they will do against their other competitor like spotted hyena clan?


2. African Lion living in Indian dense forest along with Bengal Tiger or in cold climate of Russia far east with Amur tigers? Along with that they have to face sloth bear, dhole, pack of Indian wolfs in India. In Russia they have other competitor like big brown bear and Pack of wolfs.



*This image is copyright of its original author

a) A pride of African lion is too much in any place for any land animals. Given that tiger is already there and well equipped with that environment they will probably dominant lions at beginning, but with time when lion start adopting the place, they will mostly dominate the region if they manage to live in pride or in gang.

b) What will be the lions tactics in Indian forest along with tiger, leopard, and sloth bear to compete for the same prey and same area ?

c) What will be their most targeted prey in India ?

Note:
This is not Vs debate, and it is for wild Lion and Tiger only. This produce a good opportunity to test put your knowledge of lion and tiger beyond fighting. Basically you need to explain your thoughts by giving proper reasons.
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India Rishi Offline
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( This post was last modified: 07-30-2017, 05:49 PM by Rishi )

(07-30-2017, 03:28 PM)sanjay Wrote: 1. Tiger living in Africa's plain land along with Cheetah, Leopard, Spotted hyena, Wild dogs and their main competitor Pride of Lions. If we ignore scientific constraint in this assumption then what is your thought on this. Following Questions arises


*This image is copyright of its original author


a) How do will tiger do against group of lions. Is their any chance of surviving solitary tiger just like leopard? We know that tiger can not run faster than lions, we know they can not climb up tree, we know that the tiger has no chance of surviving against gang of lions if caught alone.

b) If some how they able to survive, what tactics they will adopt?

c) What animal they hunt most out of the available prey in African plains ? Will they compete for same food as the lion ?

d) How they will do against their other competitor like spotted hyena clan?

(Notwithstanding individual to individual behavioural variations.)

1. Although i've read that tigers, originated in snowy areas won't survive the open savanna unless drastic adaptations take place...
 
a & b. A tiger would behave EXACTLY like a lone lion does in similar conditions...(I'm not indulging into the cases of limited aggression & avoidance, as i think there isn't much to discuss on that topic)

Dominant male tiger against lionesses & young-adults:




Against similar-sized opponents (i personally find lion & tiger 1-on-1 bouts to be exactly same styled, except tigers don't do that running around):





Male coalition against sub-adult tiger:





Male coalition against dominant male tiger:




Male tiger against lion pride:




c. This is where tigers will be thoroughly outcompeted in Ngorongoro-like fully open plains. Unless the gang-up, like John Varty's tigers are said to do, they cant really hunt almost anything.
They are larger than leopards & a wildebeest herd has just too msny eyes...

d. Buffalos & hyenas are going to be the only other threat.

I expect the relationship to be, again, similar to what happens with lone lions.



Tiger would fare better against hyenas though...There is record of tigers taking defensive positions in water bodies (if available) against 40+ strong dhole packs, where the water bogs down the dholes & doesn't let them flank him easily using their numbers...that's pretty ingenious.
I don't know why the lioness above didn't do that.

Anyway in all possible scenarios, the lions seem to elbow out the tigers withdue time & vice versa, based on the vegetation pattern...
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2. I'm not going into unnecessary speculations on this while we're about to find out in a few years. (Have gather ome more info on lion-tiger coexistance & will post it shortly on the Asian lion reintroduction page).
In the wild, expect the unexpected, as we humans haven't really much clue of what to expect.
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India sanjay Offline
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Good try Rishi, I want more scientific information and explanation in your next reply
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Switzerland Spalea Offline
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This question consists of comparing two ways of live , the first one in pride, the second one solitary adopted by two big feline predators, both approximately same size. No need to name them, I think.

First case: tigers surviving in Africa. The solitary male tiger would have to avoid meeting the male lions patrolling together their territory and the tigress the lionesses hunting together. The tigers being naturally a more elusive cat than the lions it would be possible by supposing that they could inhabit the most wooded zones/areas of the savannahs. But I frankly doubt that the tigers content themselves with not being the " first one on top " predator. Somewhat like we can see in Siberia when they have to coexist with the brown bears, each time it would be possible for one male to catch by ambush a lone lion it would try its luck. In my opinion. But of course too, the male lions keeping their territory would not support any rival. Thus they would tend to kill any tiger they could meet. So what can the tigers do ? Running not faster than the lions, climbing not up the trees... Life for them should be very difficult.

Then, as we can see in the videos about " Tigers in Africa ", the preys (buffalos, antilopes, wildebeests...) doesn't seem to know what attitude to adopt in front of a predator they have never seen before. Thus the hunt for these solitary tigers in Africa seems to be easier. On the other hand, when they killed a big prey they have to eat it quickly before a group of lions comes to oust them or before a pride of spotted hyenas comes to report them noisily to every predator in the vicinity. The tigers hate the publicity.

Second case: lions surviving in an indian dense forest. As we can see about lions living in ethopian forests, they are able to be more elusive than usual. The added challenge for them is to avoid too numerous confrontations with the huge predator previously dominating this biotop: the tiger. For that, the life in prides is their main advantage, the tiger staying the most efficient, the most natural predator in this kind of environment.

Like in Africa, the lions tend to live more in "open spaces" while the tigers would prefer to haunt the most wooded areas. To see that, they should share large areas. A thing still possible in Africa (the biggest parks reaching 30.000-50.000 square kilometers), but no more in India where the protected spaces mostly don't exceed 1000-2000 square kilometers in size.
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Austria Brehm Offline
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This thread is as highly interesting as it is speculative, like it!

Tigers in typical Lion habitat: In this scenario tigers would have to adapt to the new environment, which is suited for lions. If they want to compete for the crown of the apex predator, they most likely would have to copy the lions lifestyle here and there. Meaning start to forming coalitions. They are capable to do that as we know, look at the telia sisters and others. Still, a tiger is a tiger with some aspects in his behaviour, which it doesnt wants to change probably. Meaning the love with water and elusiveness. Considering those points, they may look for areas with the thickest vegetation and most water supply. Here they would have to face nile crocodiles and hippos. Both very aggresive species when it comes to defending their territory against intrudors. But i believe tigers would be able to handle this situation. In the mangroves of sundarbans smaller sized tigers are able to coexist with salties, officially the biggest subspecies of crocodiles and not less aggresive than nile crocs. . Considering that, tigers should be able to find a way to handle nile crocs. Hippos could be difficult, but this could really go either way: In hippos chasing tigers away from water holes, or in tigers seeing hippos as potential prey!
Anyway tigers need to find their niche in the savannah ecosystem, but in any possible scenario, i think there is no way to avoid violent clashes with the local mane carrying rulers. Even if lions usually avoid water, they still have to drink like almost every living creature.
Competition from other predators should be managable. Adult males in their prime should do very well most of the time, even against prides of spotted hyenas. Females and sub - adults however should watch out if alone, like in lions.


Lions in typical Tiger habitat: If we flip the cards, lions most likely would face similiar tasks like tigers in savannah: Making compromises and adapting to the new environment! This means adios big prides or large coalitions. The russian far east doesnt supports big prides of apex predators. Even for a single tiger its tough to survive there, let alone a theoretical pride of lions. Even in most indian reserves, it could be hard to find suitable prey which supports the needs of a whole pride. Dense vegetation is the next problem. Even if there is enough cover for a surprise attack, there is no chance that a bigger group of lions goes undetected under the eyes of the jungle (langurs and other monkeys). The only way to succesfully survive would be living a solitary live like tigers or giving up big prides and switch to smaller coalitions like in Gir. Apart from tigers, there should be no other real threat for them from other predators. Sloth and asian black bears could be a challenge for solitary specimens in some situations, but those encounters would be rare i guess. Overall i think, african lions would start to kill cattle at first, when they realize that chital and wild boars arent enough to support the whole pride. Adult sambars however are fairly suitable to feed at least 3-4 lions. The biggest prize would be gaur, which are rare and mostly occur in dense vegetation.

But there are two places where both cats live in similiar conditions (at least to a degree) with mega fauna, enough water and open + dense vegetation: Kaziranga and Okavango delta! If tigers from Kaziranga would be released into Okavango, chances could be very high for a fast adaption and succesfull suvival. Also vice versa with lions from Okavango into Kaziranga. Herds of wild water buffalos, rhinos, sambar and barasingha should be able to satisfy even a big pride of lions. I think in these areas, both cats wouldnt be forced to accept such high levels of compromises.

All in all, this experiments would cause a major imbalance to the ecosystem at first, with unpredictable consequences. Doesnt changes the fact, that its highly exciting. Lol
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India Rishi Offline
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(07-31-2017, 08:24 AM)Brehm Wrote: This thread is as highly interesting as it is speculative, like it!

Tigers in typical Lion habitat: In this scenario tigers would have to adapt to the new environment, which is suited for lions. If they want to compete for the crown of the apex predator, they most likely would have to copy the lions lifestyle here and there. Meaning start to forming coalitions. They are capable to do that as we know, look at the telia sisters and others. Still, a tiger is a tiger with some aspects in his behaviour, which it doesnt wants to change probably. Meaning the love with water and elusiveness. Considering those points, they may look for areas with the thickest vegetation and most water supply. Here they would have to face nile crocodiles and hippos. Both very aggresive species when it comes to defending their territory against intrudors. But i believe tigers would be able to handle this situation. In the mangroves of sundarbans smaller sized tigers are able to coexist with salties, officially the biggest subspecies of crocodiles and not less aggresive than nile crocs. . Considering that, tigers should be able to find a way to handle nile crocs. Hippos could be difficult, but this could really go either way: In hippos chasing tigers away from water holes, or in tigers seeing hippos as potential prey!
Anyway tigers need to find their niche in the savannah ecosystem, but in any possible scenario, i think there is no way to avoid violent clashes with the local mane carrying rulers. Even if lions usually avoid water, they still have to drink like almost every living creature.
Competition from other predators should be managable. Adult males in their prime should do very well most of the time, even against prides of spotted hyenas. Females and sub - adults however should watch out if alone, like in lions.


Lions in typical Tiger habitat: If we flip the cards, lions most likely would face similiar tasks like tigers in savannah: Making compromises and adapting to the new environment! This means adios big prides or large coalitions. The russian far east doesnt supports big prides of apex predators. Even for a single tiger its tough to survive there, let alone a theoretical pride of lions. Even in most indian reserves, it could be hard to find suitable prey which supports the needs of a whole pride. Dense vegetation is the next problem. Even if there is enough cover for a surprise attack, there is no chance that a bigger group of lions goes undetected under the eyes of the jungle (langurs and other monkeys). The only way to succesfully survive would be living a solitary live like tigers or giving up big prides and switch to smaller coalitions like in Gir. Apart from tigers, there should be no other real threat for them from other predators. Sloth and asian black bears could be a challenge for solitary specimens in some situations, but those encounters would be rare i guess. Overall i think, african lions would start to kill cattle at first, when they realize that chital and wild boars arent enough to support the whole pride. Adult sambars however are fairly suitable to feed at least 3-4 lions. The biggest prize would be gaur, which are rare and mostly occur in dense vegetation.

But there are two places where both cats live in similiar conditions (at least to a degree) with mega fauna, enough water and open + dense vegetation: Kaziranga and Okavango delta! If tigers from Kaziranga would be released into Okavango, chances could be very high for a fast adaption and succesfull suvival. Also vice versa with lions from Okavango into Kaziranga. Herds of wild water buffalos, rhinos, sambar and barasingha should be able to satisfy even a big pride of lions. I think in these areas, both cats wouldnt be forced to accept such high levels of compromises.

All in all, this experiments would cause a major imbalance to the ecosystem at first, with unpredictable consequences. Doesnt changes the fact, that its highly exciting. Lol

That's a really good analysis!!.  Like
In the wild, expect the unexpected, as we humans haven't really much clue of what to expect.
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India sanjay Offline
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( This post was last modified: 07-31-2017, 08:55 AM by sanjay )

Wow.. Really nice inputs

@Spalea, Agree on the point of tiger would adopt most wooded land first. But I think they will also come out in open for bigger and slower prey.

@Brehm, Really those are some solid analysis. So you mean that Tiger may start forming coalition to survive against lion ? Though I think this will take time and in between that, they need to avoid group of lions in any case. 

I agree Gaur would be their best bet to fed entire pride of lions if they need to survive in India.

The biggest problem that a lion will face is due to his current social life. A lioness and cubs can easily be killed by male tigers if caught alone or even 2. Tiger are ambush hunter and this will allow them to hunt down lone lioness. Now if number of lioness decrease in a pride, Male lion are in danger becasue they mostly relies on lioness hunt for prey. With huge mane and dense passage, it will be harder for male lion to hunt easily on Indian forest and wooded land.

Though these are pure speculations, I am sure the original result will be lot different for both cat.

So far interesting inputs. Waiting for more inputs.
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India Rishi Offline
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( This post was last modified: 10-10-2017, 08:29 PM by Rishi )

@sanjay @Brehm

(10-09-2017, 10:25 PM)Pckts Wrote: Because Bird is bigger than Sundarban and because Sundarban is low on testosterone, Sundarban is unable to remove Bird from the territory.
The result is Bird and Sundarban have formed a coalition and often spend time in the water playing together.


*This image is copyright of its original author
Quote:Bird mating with Tibo at Tiger Canyons.


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

Sundaban is the dominant territorial male. For 3 days Sundaban mated with Tibo and on the third day Bird is allowed to mate with Tibo, just twice.

Back in the days, the paintings of royal hunts in the western kingdoms of Punjab & Rajputana (which also happened to be ones with significant lion populations) almost always showed a pair of tigers.

All types of hunts...

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

I had brought this up once in "Asiatic lion reintroduction Project" thread, while discussing how tigers might have coexisted in those lion country.

The duos could likely be mating pairs though...
I don't know whether they were real behavioural adaptations or (as per @Jimmy) incorrect depictions. But i know that you don't find such scenes in the East, or South...
In the wild, expect the unexpected, as we humans haven't really much clue of what to expect.
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