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Tshokwane · 02-25-2016, 07:41 PM

Idube Game Reserve:
The four Majingilane males have found the carcass of a female elephant that died recently, they are all full and sleepy, on drive, now

*This image is copyright of its original author

LionKiss · 02-25-2016, 08:47 PM

Everybody makes assumptions even the Rangers have no tangible proof of what actually happened,

more less I make the same assumptions as them,
and the Londolozi reports has some contradictions
they say for HB: (he was moving easily by this point and it seemed that if there were any injuries, they weren’t severe at all).
then they say: we are sure that they are both hiding out in the south, attempting to find each other, licking their wounds

so we can be quite sure that HB was very echausted from the fight, something the rangers have also mentioned as the cause that HB could not stand easily before the two Majings chased him south.

This is what they say about Ginger:
The blonder-maned Matimba male was eventually found in the south east of Londolozi, right on our eastern boundary and certainly not within their established territory. Although he is still carrying the scars of his last fight, it seems he has no new injuries and because he has been able to move that far, it seems his mobility is decent. The wound on his back is leaking quite profusely but these animals are incredibly tough and the fact that he is covering such large distances really is good news for the Matimbas. His current position, knowingly or unknowingly, is relatively close to where the Matshipiri males have been spending a majority of their time and this male would be wise to avoid calling or scent marking in this area.

So Ginger has no new injuries, HB has no injuries at all, Majingilane are in superb condition, so what kind of fight was it then?
Personally I still believe Ginger didn't get involve in the fight at all.

Still the rangers don't know if the fight was 2 vs 1 or 2 vs 2, they make assumptions and I am little surpised that htey didn't rushed to the point of the fight since it is only across the river of their base, for sure they could hear the roaring.

Read also the first paragraph carefully:

On the evening of the 22nd February, the Matimba males were seen quite far west of their territory and roaring with a Mhangeni lioness, in Majingilane territory. This was an incredibly brave (or foolhardy) move, given the fact that one of the males was already injured and had just come out of a fight. The males roared while moving eastwards throughout the evening, and by about 10pm, the Matimba males were calling around the Londolozi camps, in the core of their territory once more. Although the Majingilane give us the impression that they have been prepared to cede their previously held territory around the Londolozi camps, its seems [b]the calls of the Matimba’s in their territory earlier in the evening was just too much to bare. The result: two of the Majingilane coalition came east to seek the newer males out.[/b]

I am sure this is the first time Majigilane face such a big provocation and the first time they didn't manage not even to wound even slightly the new comers. Even when the other two came for help in their traditional 4 vs 1 formation the failed to trace him, instead HB fool them around all the time, exhausted them with his continuously changing routes and eventually they gave up.

from the ethical point of view it is a defeat (ethical defeat) for the Majins, since they committed too much just to send them away instead of killing them both. We are talikng about the Majingilane, right? It is like the No1 football team in the world play a game against a new unknown team and win by 1-0. It is bitter victory all they managed is to send them away, if you take a theoretical approach the danger is still out there, it has not been eliminated.

In the Lion warfare if you don't kill your opponent you can't call it a victory because sooner or later he will be back, that's what is happening all the time for centuries.

I still worry about the beautiful cubs.

Tshokwane · 02-25-2016, 09:41 PM

That's full of selective quoting, ignoring the context of said quoting.

Quote:So Ginger has no new injuries

If he ran when he saw the two Majingilane coming, of course he doesn't.

Quote:HB has no injuries at all

The darker-maned Matimba male, however, was many kilometers away from his brother on the morning of the 23rd. He was found around the south western portion of Londolozi, lying about 300m from the Majingilane and not looking in a good state. Externally he didn’t seem to be carrying any major wounds from what we could see and he only seemed to have a wound on his paw. However, he was struggling to stand. When rangers saw him in the morning, he rocked and struggled before managing to get to his feet, gingerly walked a few paces before lying down once more.

He was moving easily by this point and it seemed that if there were any injuries, they weren’t severe at all.

Pretty clear in the explanation. The fact that he didn't have death causing injuries does not mean he wasn't injured.

Quote:so what kind of fight was it then?

On the morning of the 23rd, ranger Don Heyneke and tracker Lucky Shabangu found tracks just north of the Sand River, opposite the Londolozi camps that suggest that is where the big fight happened. Pieces of mane, blood, deep claw gouges in the ground as well as faeces litter the area.

The kind the leaves this signs.

Quote:I am sure this is the first time Majigilane face such a big provocation and the first time they didn't manage not even to wound even slightly the new comers.

Already proved wrong on this.

Quote: instead HB fool them around all the time, exhausted them with his continuously changing routes

After losing sight of him, the Majingilane patrolled the area, sniffing, roaring and scent marking. After about an hour of zig-zagging, it seemed the Matimba male had finally lost his pursuers and he headed silently and swiftly south. He would stop regularly, turn and listen intently to the north to try to establish the position of the threat before turning and moving south again.

Where does it say the Majingilane were exhausted? Because it is quite clear they were still looking for him, roaring and scent marking.

Quote:from the ethical point of view it is a defeat (ethical defeat) for the Majins, since they committed too much just to send them away instead of killing them both.

So, let me get this straight.

The two Majingilane chased the Matimbas out of their territory and out of Matimba territory, they beat the crap out of Hairy belly who was quite lucky to escape with his life, and the same went for Ginger and you still call that "a defeat" for the Majingilane?....

Come on, now.

I will finish, again, with the words of the article. From the people who actually tracked and saw it happening.

After what is now two battles won for the Majingilane, will the Matimba coalition attempt to face off their opponents again or will they learn from previous mistakes and steer clear?

LionKiss · 02-25-2016, 10:14 PM

You also try selective quoting, you don't quote in you r posts the sentence in red fonts below

The darker-maned Matimba male, however, was many kilometers away from his brother on the morning of the 23rd. He was found around the south western portion of Londolozi, lying about 300m from the Majingilane and not looking in a good state. Externally he didn’t seem to be carrying any major wounds from what we could see and he only seemed to have a wound on his paw. However, he was struggling to stand. When rangers saw him in the morning, he rocked and struggled before managing to get to his feet, gingerly walked a few paces before lying down once more. Whether this was from sheer exhaustion, stiffness from the previous evening’s forays or some internal damage, we can’t be sure but this male had certainly found himself in a precarious position. The two Majingilane males were resting up just to his north and looking strong and fit physically. They didn’t seem to have any injuries and rangers and guests were anxious to see what the evening of the 23rd would bring.

eventually it was proved that it was sheer exhaustion, it is not easy to fight 2 vs 1, and then a 4 vs 1 and still come out untouched.
scent marking does not have a meaning, boarders are there to be violated even between Nations in war.

Why the 2 Majins were resting 300 meters away and didn't attack him, they only started again when the other two were about to join them, again this proves that they are not sufficient even in 2 vs 1 formation that's why they were resting 300 meters away.

since they didn't manage to kill any of them not even trace HB even in a 4 vs 1 formation, it still is a bitter victory, in Lion war fare you win only when you kill your adversary
but what ever it was it was never a 1 vs 1 confrontation and this is the massive difference with MrT who intentionally fought a honorable fight 1 vs 4 (selatis). MrT had every chance to run away but he acted like a Spartan, never surrender, he did not drop his shield.

Pckts · 02-25-2016, 10:34 PM

@LionKiss
"and the most important is that the Rangers should do something and protect the cubs which are the innocent victims of those lion warfare.

sooner or later there will be an other fight, dominant males will die and new will come but the cubs does not deserve to die, "

There is no such thing as "innocent" in the wild. As long as no human interference caused it, natural occurrence needs to happen. No such involvement outside of observation shall ever take place with wild animals, it's not our place to disrupt the balance of nature.

vizions · 02-25-2016, 11:18 PM

(02-25-2016, 05:06 PM)Majingilane Wrote:
Quote:I doubt the two Matimbas were involved in this altercation, and the article points out Ginger wasn't involved in the skirmish/fight.
No, the article doesn't say this. It says that possibly both of them were involved, they just don't know.

And the article doesn't say Ginger was involved also. "[i] We don’t know which of the Matimba males were caught in this fight (possibly both)". [/i]The "which" means that only one Matimba was involved in the fight, and is more important that the "possibly both" in parentheses.

Knowing the Matimbas a little bit, i don't see the two of them fleeing against 2 Majingilanes. They already have shown that they fight and stood together (against 3 Majingilanes last year and just a month ago, the 3 Fourways, the 2 Styx males, and the 5 Birminghams...). And knowing the Majingilanes, I also find hard to believe the Majins would have engaged the 2 biggers Matimbas on their own. Not trying to denigrate them, but they are rather cautious lions and even you can agree on that.

I understand that you "Majingilane" would like the idea of the 2 Majins chasing away 2 Matimbas since there's a lot of people bashing the Majingilanes around for their lack of courage and confidence. And you would love that your favorites do something to prove them wrong. But if you use a little bit of common sense and read the article with a neutral opinion, it make more sense that HB was on his own. I could be wrong, but from what i'm reading, that's the most logic outcome of what happened.

And please, take the Londolozi articles with a step back, they love to accentuate stories since years. They see the bush as a telenovela and love the clicks it brings to their blog. Don't forget that HB who was "was struggling to stand" outrun the 4 Majingilanes just moments later...

LionKiss · 02-26-2016, 01:16 AM

the Matimbas acted a quite immaturely, with Ginger still recovering from his fight with BBoys (or Matshipiris) they undertook a highly provocative campaign against the Majingilane.
If they were totally fit the developments would have been quite different.
HB and ginger appear to be fearless up to a point I hope they will use this high potential thoughtfully, the way the Majingilane have done

There is the impression that Londolozi rangers would like to have the Majigilane in their territory exclusevely and not in Sangita where they spend most of their time, it is a tourist attraction which means immen$e intere$t. So they have a good reason to exaggerate things

Tshokwane · 02-26-2016, 02:10 AM

Quote:You also try selective quoting, you don't quote in you r posts the sentence in red fonts below

Take a look at the posts and it is quoted. Even in the bits when I didn't quote it, it is still taken into consideration, something that you fail to do in your posts.

Quote:Why the 2 Majins were resting 300 meters away and didn't attack him, they only started again when the other two were about to join them

That is wrong. You keep saying they were waiting for the other two, yet the article says otherwise.

Then almost by the book, the Majingilane started to get moving last night once the cover of darkness descended, and they began heading straight in the direction of the unsuspecting dark-maned Matimba male. As the distance between the coalitions lessened, the vehicles switched their lights off, thereby allowing the Matimba male to see the threat coming and so as to not give his position away. The Matimba male saw the two Majingilane brothers first and he leapt up and silently slunk away into the darkness (he was moving easily by this point and it seemed that if there were any injuries, they weren’t severe at all). What happened from here can really only be described as pandemonium. As soon as the two Majingilane smelt him they took off in his direction, the dark-maned Majingilane seeing him first and the male with the scar nose following just behind. The Matimba male disappeared at full speed and from here the Majingilane ran in circles trying to establish where he had gone. The roaring was continuous.

Notice that especifically names the two that were doing the search.
Only after all the roaring when Hairy Belly took off, it says

The noise must have attracted the attention of the other two Majingilane brothers and they came from the west to join the fray.

So, don't change the actual report of it with how you personally want it to be, please.

Quote:since they didn't manage to kill any of them not even trace HB even in a 4 vs 1 formation, it still is a bitter victory, in Lion war fare you win only when you kill your adversary

A bitter victory?
So, you're just going to ignore the whole things just because the two Matimbas weren't killed?.

Quote:but what ever it was it was never a 1 vs 1 confrontation and this is the massive difference with MrT who intentionally fought a honorable fight 1 vs 4 (selatis)

Completely different scenario and irrelevant to the conversation.

Quote:I understand that you "Majingilane" would like the idea of the 2 Majins chasing away 2 Matimbas since there's a lot of people bashing the Majingilanes around for their lack of courage and confidence. And you would love that your favorites do something to prove them wrong.

This isn't about liking, about favoritism or anything like that. If the outcome of it were to be the other way around, I would still post it and use it, just like this one.

Quote:But if you use a little bit of common sense and read the article with a neutral opinion

I always do that. With everything.

Quote:it make more sense that HB was on his own. I could be wrong, but from what i'm reading, that's the most logic outcome of what happened.

Could be, yes.

It isn't "the most logic outcome" because the article says clearly they were together, were charged by the two males and then were found separated by a great margin. Like I said, maybe Ginger ran away when he saw the Majingilane coming and that's why he was far away.

The facts still are the interaction was a 2 vs 2. I don't get why, having read the article, you believe otherwise.

Quote:And please, take the Londolozi articles with a step back, they love to accentuate stories since years. They see the bush as a telenovela and love the clicks it brings to their blog. Don't forget that HB who was "was struggling to stand" outrun the 4 Majingilanes just moments later...

Now, hold on a second here. I learned most things I know about lions and leopards thank to their blog. So I do not share some people's opinion on Londolozi.

As for the description of Hairy Belly, remember that years ago Kinky tail had been bitten and was injured badly, he could barely walk, yet "just moments later" he was charging the Majingilane and that wasn't reported by Londolozi, Nkorho said that...

Quote:There is the impression that Londolozi rangers would like to have the Majigilane in their territory exclusevely and not in Sangita where they spend most of their time, it is a tourist attraction which means immen$e intere$t. So they have a good reason to exaggerate things

As I said, don't insult the people working there or the blog. I learned most of what I know thanks to their blog and not once did it cross my mind they exaggerated things.

vizions · 02-26-2016, 04:21 AM

(02-26-2016, 02:10 AM)Majingilane Wrote:
Quote:it make more sense that HB was on his own. I could be wrong, but from what i'm reading, that's the most logic outcome of what happened.
Could be, yes.

It isn't "the most logic outcome" because the article says clearly they were together, were charged by the two males and then were found separated by a great margin. Like I said, maybe Ginger ran away when he saw the Majingilane coming and that's why he was far away.

The facts still are the interaction was a 2 vs 2. I don't get why, having read the article, you believe otherwise.

Where did you see a 2v2 on the article?

"the article says clearly they were together, were charged by the two males "
Please find me something in the article to back up your claim.

The rangers didn't even see the the first interaction. And on the second interaction, it was HB fleeing 2 Majingilanes, and then 4 Majingilanes.
The only things stated are that the Matimbas were together at 10 P.M and that there was a fight "very late that evening or in the early hours of the morning". That's a lot of time missing in the equation, and the Matimbas could have been split during this time. And recently, they don't seems to stay together. Sorry but the "The facts still are the interaction was a 2 vs 2" is a false affirmation.

Tshokwane · 02-26-2016, 05:03 AM

Quote:"the article says clearly they were together, were charged by the two males "

Please find me something in the article to back up your claim.

My pleasure.

the calls of the Matimba’s in their territory earlier in the evening was just too much to bare. The result: two of the Majingilane coalition came east to seek the newer males out.

Then almost by the book, the Majingilane started to get moving last night once the cover of darkness descended, and they began heading straight in the direction of the unsuspecting dark-maned Matimba male. As the distance between the coalitions lessened, the vehicles switched their lights off, thereby allowing the Matimba male to see the threat coming and so as to not give his position away. The Matimba male saw the two Majingilane brothers first and he leapt up and silently slunk away into the darkness.

As soon as the two Majingilane smelt him they took off in his direction, the dark-maned Majingilane seeing him first and the male with the scar nose following just behind. The Matimba male disappeared at full speed and from here the Majingilane ran in circles trying to establish where he had gone.

Quote:Sorry but the "The facts still are the interaction was a 2 vs 2" is a false affirmation.

Evidently, it isn't.

vizions · 02-26-2016, 05:27 AM

(02-26-2016, 05:03 AM)Majingilane Wrote:
Quote:"the article says clearly they were together, were charged by the two males "

Please find me something in the article to back up your claim.
My pleasure.

the calls of the Matimba’s in their territory earlier in the evening was just too much to bare. The result: two of the Majingilane coalition came east to seek the newer males out.

Then almost by the book, the Majingilane started to get moving last night once the cover of darkness descended, and they began heading straight in the direction of the unsuspecting dark-maned Matimba male. As the distance between the coalitions lessened, the vehicles switched their lights off, thereby allowing the Matimba male to see the threat coming and so as to not give his position away. The Matimba male saw the two Majingilane brothers first and he leapt up and silently slunk away into the darkness.

As soon as the two Majingilane smelt him they took off in his direction, the dark-maned Majingilane seeing him first and the male with the scar nose following just behind. The Matimba male disappeared at full speed and from here the Majingilane ran in circles trying to establish where he had gone.

"the calls of the Matimba’s in their territory earlier in the evening was just too much to bare. The result: two of the Majingilane coalition came east to seek the newer males out."

Where does it show that the 2 Majingilanes charged the 2 Matimbas together? They went to investigate the earlier roars, and nothing more is explained.

"Then almost by the book, the Majingilane started to get moving last night once the cover of darkness descended, and they began heading straight in the direction of the unsuspecting dark-maned Matimba male. As the distance between the coalitions lessened, the vehicles switched their lights off, thereby allowing the Matimba male to see the threat coming and so as to not give his position away. The Matimba male saw the two Majingilane brothers first and he leapt up and silently slunk away into the darkness.

As soon as the two Majingilane smelt him they took off in his direction, the dark-maned Majingilane seeing him first and the male with the scar nose following just behind. The Matimba male disappeared at full speed and from here the Majingilane ran in circles trying to establish where he had gone."

Totally irrelevant.
Your whole quote is about the 2nd interaction on the 23rd evening, when we know the Matimbas were split, so it doesn't back up your claim at all that the Majins charged the 2 Matimbas together. The 2 Majins went out looking for a lonely HB.

Wow. You are clearly wrong, and moreover you are taking an arrogant attitude "My pleasure" when your arguments are totally irrelevant. So again, your "facts" are wrong. You are jumping into the conclusion that it was a 2v2 fight when nothing at the article points out to that.

Tshokwane · 02-26-2016, 05:55 AM

Quote:Where does it show that the 2 Majingilanes charged the 2 Matimbas together?

Where does it show they didn't?

Quote:Totally irrelevant.

That's very convenient.

Quote:Your whole quote is about the 2nd interaction on the 23rd evening

Not the whole quote. Just that part.

Quote:when we know the Matimbas were split, so it doesn't back up your claim at all that the Majins charged the 2 Matimbas together.

How did they split? Why? They were together and then, magically, Ginger was at the opposite side of Londolozi, out of his territory?... So, it's clear this split was in response of the threat of the 2 Majingilane. How it happened, we don't know. It doesn't change the facts that it did happen.

Quote:You are jumping into the conclusion that it was a 2v2 fight when nothing at the article points out to that.

You are jumping into the conclusion that it wasn't a 2 vs 2 fight when nothing at the article points out to that.

Quote:Wow. You are clearly wrong, and moreover you are taking an arrogant attitude "My pleasure" when your arguments are totally irrelevant. So again, your "facts" are wrong.

My "arrogant attitude" as you call it, is backed up by the article written by the people that saw it happening.

Your eager rejection of the facts just because you don't like them is what is totally irrelevant.

vizions · 02-26-2016, 06:51 AM

So let's go back to your first "fact"

Quote:because the article says clearly they were together, were charged by the two males

I asked for quotes to backup your "fact" and you didn't give me anything, despite you saying "the article says clearly".

(02-26-2016, 05:55 AM)Majingilane Wrote:
Quote:Where does it show that the 2 Majingilanes charged the 2 Matimbas together?
Where does it show they didn't?

I asked for quotes to backup your claim that "the Majins charged the 2 Matimbas together". And you quoted "two of the Majingilane coalition came east to seek the newer males out". So this sentence mean that the two Majingilanes males charged at the 2 Matimbas together. Alright, i should go back to English classes then.

(02-26-2016, 05:55 AM)Majingilane Wrote:
Quote:Totally irrelevant.
That's very convenient.

Convenient? I asked for quotes to backup your claim that "the Majins charged the 2 Matimbas together" and your quote is about the 2nd interaction when we already know the Matimbas were split. So yes, it's irrelevant.

(02-26-2016, 05:55 AM)Majingilane Wrote:
Quote:when we know the Matimbas were split, so it doesn't back up your claim at all that the Majins charged the 2 Matimbas together.
How did they split? Why? They were together and then, magically, Ginger was at the opposite side of Londolozi, out of his territory?... So, it's clear this split was in response of the threat of the 2 Majingilane. How it happened, we don't know. It doesn't change the facts that it did happen.

Male lions split a lot. They have stuck together two months ago against 3 Majingilanes, and now you are saying that this time they were afraid of 2 Majingilanes and decided to leave each over? It's doesnt make sense. Even in front of the 5 Birmingham boys, they have stuck together and faced them. KT and T were together that night just before he got killed.. And in the case of the Matimbas, several hours passed before the time the rangers saw them together and the fight.

(02-26-2016, 05:55 AM)Majingilane Wrote:
Quote:You are jumping into the conclusion that it was a 2v2 fight when nothing at the article points out to that.
You are jumping into the conclusion that it wasn't a 2 vs 2 fight when nothing at the article points out to that.

I must incline myself in front of such arguments.

(02-26-2016, 05:55 AM)Majingilane Wrote:
Quote:Wow. You are clearly wrong, and moreover you are taking an arrogant attitude "My pleasure" when your arguments are totally irrelevant. So again, your "facts" are wrong.
My "arrogant attitude" as you call it, is backed up by the article written by the people that saw it happening.

Your eager rejection of the facts just because you don't like them is what is totally irrelevant.

LOL. That's a good one, i laught.

I asked you to quote the article to backup your claim, and you didn't manage it. And then you are telling me you are "backep up by the article". You are joking with me right?

My eager rejection of the facts because i don't like them? Can we talk about your eager rejection of the facts because your are a delusional fanboy?

Tshokwane · 02-26-2016, 07:20 AM

Quote:I asked you to quote the article to backup your claim, and you didn't manage it. And then you are telling me you are "backep up by the article".

I won't waste space here endlessly quoting the article. The answers are right there, I responded several times both inquiries about it. If you won't accept them because they don't suit you, that's not my problem.

Quote:Can we talk about your eager rejection of the facts because your are a delusional fanboy?

Considering that I'm the one that accepts what the article says, it is not me the one rejecting the facts explained by the experts.

About, the unnecessary ad hominem, this is not the forum for such things. I will not allow it.

vizions · 02-26-2016, 08:04 AM

(02-26-2016, 07:20 AM)Majingilane Wrote:
Quote:I asked you to quote the article to backup your claim, and you didn't manage it. And then you are telling me you are "backep up by the article".
I won't waste space here endlessly quoting the article. The answers are right there, I responded several times both inquiries about it. If you won't accept them because they don't suit you, that's not my problem.

We are wasting more space because you are not quoting them actually. That's like the 3rd post where i'm asking for them. I have read the article 3 times, and i still don't see the sentence explaining that the 2 Majingilanes charged the 2 Matimbas.

(02-26-2016, 07:20 AM)Majingilane Wrote:
Quote:Can we talk about your eager rejection of the facts because your are a delusional fanboy?
Considering that I'm the one that accepts what the article says, it is not me the one rejecting the facts explained by the experts.

What did i reject? Oh yeah right, something not written in the article. So i'm rejecting your "facts". Do you call yourself an expert now?
I'm accepting every point stated of this article. I'm just not changing the points to make my favorites lions look "better" like you do. I'm not a fan of either coalitions.

I don't think this discussion is going anywhere. I proved you wrong several times and i don't think you are capable of questioning yourself sadly. You are stating "facts" and yet you are incapable of proving them.

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