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Giant Short Faced Bear (Arctodus simus)

Australia Verdugo Offline
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#16

(11-04-2019, 09:25 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: In a museum from a Southeast European country, most likely Croatia or Slovenia.



*This image is copyright of its original author
How did you get this? Did you take this with your camera when you went to the museum or did it come from certain websites? (it it was the latter, can you link me to the website?) Do we have more information on this specimen or this is all we have? I'm still a bit cautious with the figures here simply because they are unbelievably high and they are not from peer-reviewed sources.

Yes, i never heard of a skull of this size in literatures. It's larger than the largest Arctodus simus's skull that i know of, both in Skull length and Mastoid width. For example, Figueirido 2010 Supplementary Table 2S. The largest Arctodus skull in the study, FM 30492:
Greatest skull length: 496 mm
Mastoid Width: 242.7 mm

Or Ottawa Naturalist 1911, Arctodus simus specimen 'Actotherium yukonense'. See page 24:
Greatest skull length: 506 mm
Mastoid width: 240 mm

Assuming the measurements of the Cave bear skull are legit, i can't really see a Bear with a skull of that size weighing less than 1 tonne. The Arctodus simus skulls i listed here are already 1 tonne candidates and they are still not quite as large as the Cave bear skull here
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United States GrizzlyClaws Offline
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#17
( This post was last modified: 11-05-2019, 10:33 PM by GrizzlyClaws )

(11-04-2019, 10:12 PM)Verdugo Wrote:
(11-04-2019, 09:25 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: In a museum from a Southeast European country, most likely Croatia or Slovenia.



*This image is copyright of its original author
How did you get this? Did you take this with your camera when you went to the museum or did it come from certain websites? (it it was the latter, can you link me to the website?) Do we have more information on this specimen or this is all we have? I'm still a bit cautious with the figures here simply because they are unbelievably high and they are not from peer-reviewed sources.

Yes, i never heard of a skull of this size in literatures. It's larger than the largest Arctodus simus's skull that i know of, both in Skull length and Mastoid width. For example, Figueirido 2010 Supplementary Table 2S. The largest Arctodus skull in the study, FM 30492:
Greatest skull length: 496 mm
Mastoid Width: 242.7 mm

Or Ottawa Naturalist 1911, Arctodus simus specimen 'Actotherium yukonense'. See page 24:
Greatest skull length: 506 mm
Mastoid width: 240 mm

Assuming the measurements of the Cave bear skull are legit, i can't really see a Bear with a skull of that size weighing less than 1 tonne. The Arctodus simus skulls i listed here are already 1 tonne candidates and they are still not quite as large as the Cave bear skull here


Just correct a typo, the 506 mm figure is the condylobasal length of the Yukon skull, and its greatest length is 521 mm.

BTW, a 50 mm difference is still quite a lot, but also keep in mind that we have only very few samples for the Yukon subspecies so far. And we don't know if the 521 mm skull really represents the absolute max for the entire population.

If that 57 cm skull is legit, then it is just a freak specimen from the absolute max spectrum, and the average weight for the Ursus ingressus was still smaller than the SF from both North and South America.
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Australia Verdugo Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-05-2019, 11:44 AM by Verdugo )

(11-05-2019, 01:41 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Just correct a typo, the 506 mm figure is the condylobasal length of the Yukon skull, and its greatest length is 521 mm.

BTW, a 50 mm difference is still quite a lot, but also keep in mind that we have only very few samples for the Yukon subspecies so far. And we don't know if the 521 mm skull really represents the absolute max for the entire population.

If that 57 cm skull is legit, then it is just a freak specimen from the absolute max spectrum, and the average weight for the Ursus ingressus was still than the SF from both North and South America.
It's not a typo actually, i know there will be some confusion with the way the author described the skull measurements...

Anyway, you can see what different skull measurements actually mean here

*This image is copyright of its original author

Condylobasal length is premaxilla - occipital condyle, which is stated in the source to be 463 mm. So both the the 506 mm and 521 mm are not condylobasal length.

Both 506 and 521 mm figures could be called 'Greatest skull length' because they're both Premaxilla - Inion. However, the exact way they are obtained seems to be a bit different. The 521 mm (judging by the way it was described) appears to be a straight line from Premax to Inion. On the other hand, the 506 mm (judging by how it was described in the source) is the distance between Premax and Inion measured from a line paralleled to the transverse plane. Anyway, to illustrate my point:

*This image is copyright of its original author

The 521 mm would be the Red line number 1 and the 506 mm would be the Red line number 2 (just ignore all the of the little numbers around it, i'm unable to find better illustration).

According to the Skull measurement link i posted above and according to what i have seen in literatures (Figueirido, 2010, Fig. 2), the Second measurement would be the more appropriate measurement of Greatest or Maximum skull length. I rarely see the First measurement being used in more recent literatures (post-2000).

Obviously, i don't know how the Cave bear's skull length was measured. Assuming it was measured using the First method, then the 521 mm figure for SFB would be the more appropriate figures for an apple-apple comparison. Even so, the 50 mm difference is not a small difference like you said.

The thing is i have seen Cave bear skulls as long or longer than those of SFB but none are as wide or as deep. So it's not as much as a surprise for me to see Cave bear's skull being longer than those of SFB. The Cave bear skull that you posted, on the other hand, appears to be not only longer than those of SFB, but also wider as well (due to having larger Mastoid width). This means that Cave bear skull is probably larger than those of the largest SFB in its overall dimensions. Yeah, probably a freak like you said. Regardless, a skull of that size (assuming the figures are legit) would make Cave bear one of the largest Bear in existence.

BTW, why didn't you answer my question? How did you get that pic? Did you take it on your trip to the museum or somewhere else? If you took it from a certain website then a link to that website would be great.
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United States GrizzlyClaws Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-05-2019, 10:33 PM by GrizzlyClaws )

I didn't take the snapshot by myself, but rather an invocation from another website.

BTW, there is a scale bar beside the skull, more likely a 5 cm scale bar.

Maybe you can briefly measure it on the screen to see if the skull does match with the reference in the measurement.
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Venezuela epaiva Offline
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#20

A Short Faced bear steals prey from Dire Wolves
By David March Douglas 

*This image is copyright of its original author
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Spalea Offline
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#21

" The short-faced bears (Arctodus spp.) is a bear genus that inhabited North America during the Pleistocene epoch from about 1.8 Mya until 11,000 years ago. It was the most common early North American bear and was most abundant in California.


There are two recognized species: Arctodus pristinus and Arctodus simus, with the latter considered to be one of the largest known terrestrial mammalian carnivores that has ever existed. It has been hypothesized that their extinction coincides with the Younger Dryas period of global cooling commencing around 10,900 BC.

In a recent study, the mass of six A. simusspecimens was estimated, one-third of them weighed about 900 kg (1 short ton), the largest 957 kg (2,110 lb), suggesting specimens that big were probably more common than previously thought. It stood 8–10 feet (2.4–3.0 m) tall on hind legs, with a large specimen standing up to 11–12 feet (3.4–3.7 m) tall with a 14-foot (4.3 m) vertical arm reach. When walking on all fours, it stood 5–6 feet (1.5–1.8 m) high at the shoulder and would be tall enough to look a human in the eye. "

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Venezuela epaiva Offline
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( This post was last modified: 12-31-2019, 11:33 PM by epaiva )

Giant Short Faced Bear skeketon, it is 10 feet tall and measures 9 feet long and 4,5 feet height on four legs 
Credit to Boneclones

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
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Venezuela epaiva Offline
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#23

Giant Short Faced Bear chasing a young Bison
By Roman Yevseyev

*This image is copyright of its original author
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