There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
--- Peter Broekhuijsen ---

  • 2 Vote(s) - 4.5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines

Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
Canine Expert
*****
Moderators

I also notice the shape of the lower canine also fits the archaic features better.

BTW, do you think this fossil has been dated more than 1 million years old?
1 user Likes GrizzlyClaws's post
Reply

United States tigerluver Online
Prehistoric Feline Expert
*****
Moderators
( This post was last modified: Yesterday, 12:16 AM by tigerluver )

Looking at the intermediate features, it could be about 1 mya old. The mandible has the anterior dental shift of P. t. oxygnatha and the curvature and dental ratios of P. t. trinilensis, clearly showing that it is of an intermediate form. Sangiran can go as far back 1.66 mya and Trinil as recent as 500 kya. That would put this new specimen somewhere in the middle.
2 users Like tigerluver's post
Reply

Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
Canine Expert
*****
Moderators

And have you measured the length and width of the lower canine?
Reply

United States tigerluver Online
Prehistoric Feline Expert
*****
Moderators

I'll try to get some photos post later. Measuring at what I think is the root if the mandible wasn't broken at that point, the canine is 65 mm tall, 32 mm long, and 25 mm wide. The entire exposed portion is about 82 mm. 


*This image is copyright of its original author
2 users Like tigerluver's post
Reply

Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
Canine Expert
*****
Moderators
( This post was last modified: Yesterday, 08:16 AM by GrizzlyClaws )

This mandible probably belongs to a skull close to 19 inches, and it got proportionally very long canine teeth, yet the absolute size of its canine teeth still didn't hit the ceiling.

There are even some modern tiger canine teeth which are more impressive than this fossil giant. I wonder if there is modern tiger got proportionally longer canine teeth or simply got even larger skull?
1 user Likes GrizzlyClaws's post
Reply

United States tigerluver Online
Prehistoric Feline Expert
*****
Moderators

To be frank, the relative canine size for the mandible is rather average. Looking at the previous overlay comparisons, the canine is proportionately as big as that of the Trinil and Longdan tigers. It's just that the skull is so big that the canine is in absolute terms huge.

Maybe the drop in body size caused an increase in canine length. It's energetically cheaper to grow larger canines than a larger body. Therefore, today's cats can achieve a quicker kill with longer canines rather than sheer body strength.
2 users Like tigerluver's post
Reply

Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
Canine Expert
*****
Moderators

According to Mr. Stout, this mandible has absolutely huge canine tooth in proportion compared to the Pleistocene lions.

So it is possible for a smaller 700 pounds Amur tiger having larger canine teeth than a 1000 pounds Pleistocene Sunda tiger? Since they need to prey on the similar sized bovids, and with a decreasing body size, they need to offset this disadvantage with the proportionally larger canine teeth.
2 users Like GrizzlyClaws's post
Reply

United States tigerluver Online
Prehistoric Feline Expert
*****
Moderators

That's a logical explanation in my mind. If we note that the modern Javan tigers can have premolars and molars the size of the large mainland tigers but still have smaller skulls, it seems size and dentition do not follow each other necessarily.
1 user Likes tigerluver's post
Reply

Venezuela epaiva Offline
Moderator
*****
Moderators
( This post was last modified: 3 hours ago by epaiva )

It belongs to a big Panthers atrox skull to compare them, the lower fang measures 5,7 cent long
*This image is copyright of its original author
2 users Like epaiva's post
Reply

Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
Canine Expert
*****
Moderators

Maybe tigerluver's mandible's lower canine got 1 cm longer, but the anteroposterior length (width diameter) is similar.
3 users Like GrizzlyClaws's post
Reply

United States tigerluver Online
Prehistoric Feline Expert
*****
Moderators

Good comparison @epaiva . I would use something closer to the exposed canine measurement to compare with @epaiva's measurements as the 65 mm measurement is taken directly level with posterior alveoli, which is higher up. Regarding skull width and dentition width, has anyone noted a correlation between the two? Unfortunately the mandible doesn't have any of its symphysis to determine skull width with angles.
1 user Likes tigerluver's post
Reply

Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
Canine Expert
*****
Moderators

Shouldn't the canine alveoli have more correlation with the rostrum?

BTW, the AP length should be correlated with the length of the rostrum, while the LM width should be correlated with the width of the rostrum.



*This image is copyright of its original author
Reply






Users browsing this thread:
4 Guest(s)

About Us
Go Social  

Welcome to WILDFACT forum, a website that focuses on sharing the joy that wildlife has on offer. We welcome all wildlife lovers to join us in sharing that joy. As a member you can share your research, knowledge and experience on animals with the community.
wildfact.com is intended to serve as an online resource for wildlife lovers of all skill levels from beginners to professionals and from all fields that belong to wildlife anyhow. Our focus area is wild animals from all over world. Content generated here will help showcase the work of wildlife experts and lovers to the world. We believe by the help of your informative article and content we will succeed to educate the world, how these beautiful animals are important to survival of all man kind.
Many thanks for visiting wildfact.com. We hope you will keep visiting wildfact regularly and will refer other members who have passion for wildlife.

Forum software by © MyBB