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Pleistocene Big Cats
Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines
Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines
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Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines
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@GrizzlyClaws , could you find out what museum the specimen is located in?
 (01-12-2017, 08:56 PM)tigerluver Wrote: @GrizzlyClaws , could you find out what museum the specimen is located in? Ask to @Betty, maybe he will get a clue about the museum, since he is native from China.
@tigerluver
Maybe the Cave lion-like mandible is just a large Pleistocene tiger, since the convergent evolutionary pattern did really exist among the late Pleistocene felines. Maybe the real Cave lions were located further north in the place like Yakutia.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
 (01-12-2017, 08:59 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:(01-12-2017, 08:56 PM)tigerluver Wrote: @GrizzlyClaws , could you find out what museum the specimen is located in? @GrizzlyClaws Upper Cave Unearthed tiger complete skeleton, located in Zhoukoudian Peking Man Site Museum.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
So how would the humerus of Panthera Fossilis compare to that of the giant Ngandong Tiger?
Tigers normally have a thicker radius and thinner humerus than lions at weight parity, but both bones are more robust (shorter) in tigers. The American Lion does have less robust and thinner forelimb bones than Ngandong Tiger, doesn't it? Differences may vary, though.
I guess maybe Panthera fossilis could have an edge.
BTW, the Pleistocene tigers from Java was different from those in China. The later one was proportionally less cursorial and greater robusticity, consider that the Sunda shelf may be mostly consisted with the grassland, so the Ngandong tiger could be also evolved with longer legs for the running purpose.
The Ngandong tiger has 3 long bones on record. The bones from Ngandong are very robust for all Panthera. The humerus, while of the length of an average Bengal/Amur male, is much more robust from top to bottom. The Ngandong femur is similarly very robust from top to bottom. The Wateolang humerus is long (not exceptionally), but is a bit more intriguing. It's distal robusticity is the same as a modern tiger's, but it diaphysis is almost as hefty as that of the humerus from Ngandong. The giant P. fossilis' proportional robusticity will remain unknown as it is a fragment. However, see this chart below:
 *This image is copyright of its original author The thickest distal ratio in the recent cave lion is about 0.277. In vK's distal diameter (so a straight line point to point measurement and not necessarily synonymous with greatest width) of 99 mm the Ngandong humerus has a ratio of about 0.280, pretty the same robusticity as the cave lion. If we take the distal width, which I measured to be about 101 mm, the distal width/bone length ratio is about 0.286. Width and diameter are often interchanged and while the meaning is a bit arbitrary and subjective for the author, here's the usual difference. Here's distal width (DEH):  *This image is copyright of its original author Here's distal diameter (41):  *This image is copyright of its original author The difference is subtle in the humerus as usually the two measurements are very close and as I've said before, often times authors interchange the two words as synonyms. Humerus to humerus, the giant Sabol fragment would obviously outsize the Ngandong humerus. From maximum to maximum, the Ngandong femur is probably around the same dimension as the largest P. fossilis. Unfortunately, the Ngandong sample is too small to make the same analysis I did for the cave lions in terms of body proportion. With numbers, a 450 mm humerus produces about a 470-490 mm femur for P. spelaea and P. leo, so we can assume P. fossilis would be similar. I tend to think the three biggest P. fossilis long specimens, namely an c. 192 mm metatarsal 3 of Argant, the humerus distal fragment of Sabol, and the 465 mm of Reichanau likely produce specimens of similar stature which would be taller than the 480 mm Ngandong tiger at the shoulder. Lengthwise, the Ngandong tiger was reported by vK to have a "proximal AP diameter" of 59 mm. This could indicate a very long animal as a anteroposterior elongation of the proximal joint of the femur could indicate a anteroposterior-wise long pelvis and thus a very long animal. Unfortunately, vK's measurement methods were unconventional and no sagittal photo of the femur exists so I can't with great certainty how this value would compare to other authorities. Nonetheless, I can try. The Ngandong femur has a proximal width of ~110 mm (vK reported a diameter of 94 mm but search through all the data in the world on feliforms and you will never find a cat in history that would have an proximal AP diameter 63% of its proximal latermodial width, that's just not a value cats can have). Let's say vK took the AP measurement from not the head, but the opposite side of the bone. Looking at cat bones, the proximal head of the femur is usually 95% of the depth than the opposite side of the proximal femur, thus it would not be illogical to infer that the Ngandong femur had a proximal head width of at least around 56 mm as well. Thus, at the minimum this Ngandong femur had a proximal head depth to bone length ratio of 0.117, about matching the most robust P. atrox femur from Merriam and Stock (1932) (2907-R-2). Tigers usually don't have this bone width, thus perhaps the Ngandong tiger had a deep hip jint, thus deep hip sockets, thus deep pelvis, and thus relatively longer/deep body for a tiger or any cat in general. Overall, P. fossilis is likely taller, while P. soloensis longer. Mass is very difficult to figure out, as tigers have oddly high masses for their bones. Whether the Ngandong tiger(?) shares this trait is in research. It's late so I've typo'd likely, please do forgive me.
Could the Ngandong tiger also have a proportionally longer skull than the modern tigers? I somewhat got this impression due the coherent characteristic from the modern Javan tiger.
However, the fake counterfeit canine teeth from 2015 was demoralizing and discouraging me to keep digging more online information about the Ngandong tiger.
Earlier on this same thread, I remember you both mentioning that ancient big cat versions had less robust skulls than their modern versions. This could be due to most of the prey being quite large (something like 80% of prey are giants), and a larger prey needs a larger mouth gape thus the elongation of the skull and dentation.
 (01-14-2017, 10:12 AM)Polar Wrote: So how would the humerus of Panthera Fossilis compare to that of the giant Ngandong Tiger? I think tiger subspesies absolutly robust than lion anchestor or not this is me bro..
Upper Cave Unearthed Late Pleistocene tiger complete skeleton，located in Zhoukoudian Peking Man Site Museum.
 *This image is copyright of its original author Upper Cave Unearthed Late Pleistocene Cave bear skeleton.  *This image is copyright of its original author
I think that this thread is appropriate.
Origin of an Assemblage Massively Dominated by Carnivorans from the Miocene of Spain Domingo, Alberdi, Azanza, Silva & Morales, 2013  *This image is copyright of its original author Two sabertooth cats circle a rhinoceros carcass in an underground cave Credit: MAURICIO ANTÓN  *This image is copyright of its original author Figure 4. Bone modifications due to sediment compaction in BAT-1 LLA. A, Bone collapse in femur B-7056 (top) and humerus B-2721 (bottom) of Machairodus aphanistus. Note that a fragment of another bone is encrusted in the distal part of the femur diaphysis (grey arrow). Collapse in that area of the femur was probably caused by the bone-bone contact; B, Deformation of Protictitherium crassum skulls. Left: skull B-2804; center: skull B-2802; right: skull B-2889. Abstract: "Carnivoran-dominated fossil sites provide precious insights into the diversity and ecology of species rarely recovered in the fossil record. The lower level assemblage of Batallones-1 fossil site (Late Miocene; Madrid Basin, Spain) has yielded one of the most abundant and diversified carnivoran assemblage ever known from the Cenozoic record of mammals. A comprehensive taphonomic study is carried out here in order to constrain the concentration mode of this remarkable assemblage. Another distinctive feature of Batallones-1 is that the accumulation of carnivoran remains took place in the context of a geomorphological landform (cavity formation through a piping process) practically unknown in the generation of fossil sites. Two characteristics of the assemblage highly restrict the probable causes for the accumulation of the remains: the overwhelming number of carnivorans individuals; and the mortality profiles estimated for the four most abundant taxa do not correspond to the classic mortality types but rather were the consequence of the behavior of the taxa. This evidence together with other taphonomic data supports the hypothesis that carnivoran individuals actively entered the cavity searching for resources (food or water) and were unable to exit. The scarcity of herbivores implies that the shaft was well visible and avoided by these taxa. Fossil bones exhibit a very good preservation state as a consequence of their deposition in the restricted and protective environment of the chamber. Batallones-1 had another assemblage (upper level assemblage) that was dominated by herbivore remains and that potentially corresponded to the final stages of the cavity filling." Little phrase extracted: ".... The most abundantly represented taxa are the two sabertoothed cats, Promegantereon ogygia and Machairodus aphanistus...." Other articles related: Killer Cave Lured Ancient Carnivores to Their Death
A New Machairodont from the Palmetto Fauna (Early Pliocene) of Florida, with Comments on the Origin of the Smilodontini (Mammalia, Carnivora, Felidae)
Rhizosmilodon fiteae Wallace & Hulbert, 2013  *This image is copyright of its original author Figure 1. Examples of the Palmeto Fauna machairodont. Original described specimen UF 22890 [7] (A–C), proposed holotype UF 124634 (D–F), and paratype UF 135626 (G–I) in lateral, occlusal, and lingual views respectively. Images in D–F reversed to match the other two specimens. Abstract: "South-central Florida’s latest Hemphillian Palmetto Fauna includes two machairodontine felids, the lion-sized Machairodus coloradensis and a smaller, jaguar-sized species, initially referred to Megantereon hesperus based on a single, relatively incomplete mandible. This made the latter the oldest record of Megantereon, suggesting a New World origin of the genus. Subsequent workers variously accepted or rejected this identification and biogeographic scenario. Fortunately, new material, which preserves previously unknown characters, is now known for the smaller taxon. The most parsimonious results of a phylogenetic analysis using 37 cranio-mandibular characters from 13 taxa place it in the Smilodontini, like the original study; however, as the sister-taxon to Megantereon and Smilodon. Accordingly, we formally describe Rhizosmilodon fiteae gen. et sp. nov. Rhizosmilodon, Megantereon, and Smilodon ( = Smilodontini) share synapomorphies relative to their sister-taxon Machairodontini: serrations smaller and restricted to canines; offset of P3 with P4 and p4 with m1; complete verticalization of mandibular symphysis; m1 shortened and robust with widest point anterior to notch; and extreme posterior “lean” to p3/p4. Rhizosmilodon has small anterior and posterior accessory cusps on p4, a relatively large lower canine, and small, non-procumbent lower incisors; all more primitive states than in Megantereon and Smilodon. The former also differs from Megantereon and Smilodon gracilis by having a very small mandibular flange. Rhizosmilodon is the oldest known member of the Smilodontini, suggesting that the tribe originated in North America. Two more derived, similar-sized species evolved in parallel during the Blancan, Megantereon hesperus and Smilodon gracilis. The former is rarer, known only from the north-central and northwestern US, and presumably dispersed into the Old World. The latter is known from the eastern and southern US, and dispersed into South America." Other articles related: 5-Million-Year-Old Saber-Toothed Cat Fossil Discovered Five-million-year-old saber-toothed cat in newly discovered genus discovered in Florida |
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