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Pleistocene Big Cats
Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines
Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines
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Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines
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Black and whited it if it helps.
 *This image is copyright of its original author
Maybe it is the angle illusion.
BTW, since its scientific name is still the old one, so it could be the same one that VK mentioned in his paper. 
The black and white helped a ton, check out where I circled.....
 *This image is copyright of its original author Looks very much the same on both skulls, what do you think?
@Pckts, I think you landed the final blow.
It's the same skull! Now the mandible...  *This image is copyright of its original author vK only found two mandible on Ngandong, but in his image, paired up a Watoealang mandible with this skull for reference, I guess. Not match of mandible from the damage differences I see.
B) Panthera Tigris Trinilensis (VK's specimen) looks to have a more curved mandible, the other 3 sit almost flat where (B) looks like it would rock if placed on even ground.
The only vK mandbile that was missing its canine and had damage like the one in @GrizzyClaws picture is the Watoealang one. But in the new picture, its missing its ramus. Maybe the mandible was broken, and that's why none of us are able to get into contact with these owners when we refer to these bones...
Hello guys.
 Sorry (again) for the looooooooooooooooooong delay. These news and the new tables of @peter bring me back immediately, and I also bring some good news for all. To the point, yes, that is the skull of the Ngandong tiger with out a doubt, and is a pleasant surprise to see it still complete and in good shape. The mandible is definitely the one labeled as (d) in the image of @tigerluver, and sadly it seems broken. Now, the question of the million dollars, how the hell those Russians get that photo? Again, Russians are reaching the moon first, if you know what I mean.  Other thing, is the Ngandong tiger femur still complete, or even more important, it still exist??? If the answer is yes, to both, it will be great. Is good to see, that at least one of the four more important bones of the Ngandong tiger is still complete, safe and ready to be studied again. It seems that is as large as the largest tiger skull measured by Mazák (1983), which is of 383 mm, if not slightly longer, like the normal profile of the Sunda tigers. Thank you for bringing more data to this topic. 
@GuateGojira, the upper half of the ramus of the mandible was weakened by losing the lower half, thus I assume that it likely broken during storage. No scientist has been able to get a hold of the people in ownership, at least from the west. Not even Brongersma could find the skull, and now it pops up on the internet.
The diameter of the upper canine tooth of the skull 2900-3 (the 45.8 cm Panthera atrox skull) is 3.81 cm, while the diameter of the largest Amur tiger upper canine tooth is around 5 cm.
This is a good indication about the size of this monster.  *This image is copyright of its original author
 *This image is copyright of its original author We are talking about this canine, right @GrizzlyClaws? It looks recent too, where did this guy come from, Harbin? (02-28-2016, 07:12 AM)tigerluver Wrote: Yep, most likely a captive giant from the Harbin breeding center. I think his skull is comparable with the largest Panthera atrox/Panthera spelaea, but just in most case tiger's canines are more massive with its skull being comparable with lion's in both greater length and diameter.  *This image is copyright of its original author
My point about the Ngandong tiger have small teeth for its head:
 *This image is copyright of its original author
It is possible, since they were an earlier branch of the tiger species, so the evolutionary morphology per se could be slightly different in comparison to the modern tigers.
Here is the resin cast from boneclone based on the holotype of the Alaskan Cave lion; the skull is 384 mm, and the upper canine measures 127 mm. https://boneclones.com/product/cave-lion-skull-BC-104 https://boneclones.com/product/cave-lion-canine-KO-104 If we apply the 167 mm giant canine from Harbin, then the skull of the Alaskan Cave lion will be scaled up to 505 mm. The canine of the Alaskan Cave lion is proportionally long but thinner in comparison to American lion, but the giant canine from Harbin is way thicker than American lion's. http://donsmaps.com/images23/cavelionskulls.jpg Can you imagine if we fit the 167 mm canine into a normal sized big cat skull? It is going to be way out of proportion.
@tigerluver, I got the feeling that some obscure Amur tiger individuals in the history and the modern captivity could have a chance to take a shot at the title of the largest cat in the history.
Although they rank below Bengal tiger and some other large African lions among the wild populations of today, but their historical glory could still be vindicated. In the past, they were likely the overlord of the big cat world. And prior to their reign, the throne belonged to the American lion and Smilodon populator. |
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