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Fall of Mapogos Lions

United States Pckts Offline
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#76

(11-20-2016, 01:10 AM)LionKiss Wrote:
(11-19-2016, 11:30 PM)Pckts Wrote: So? That doesn't mean they have some sort of secret vendetta, it's an adjective used to describe the coalition from whoever wrote the article, id also like to see the whole article so we don't have interpret a single excerpt again.

how do you know that they don't have a secret vendetta? 
You don't know, you just want to deny it on behalf of others without being asked to. 

Usually people with guns use them very easily when they lose money.
You constantly comes to the defense of people who would extremely easy use guns to kill lions.
It is like defending Al Capone, well there were some people who did it, anyway.
Did you read the article?
He absolutely makes no harsh statements towards the Mapogos, in fact, the article isn't really about them. He also compares the new challengers to the Mapogos and talks about their similarities. So in your mind, he hates the Mapogos but loves the other coalition?

Also, using your reasoning...
How do you know they had any vendettas against the Mapogos?
Burden of proof is on you, you're making these claims you should have real evidence to back them.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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United States Pckts Offline
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#77
( This post was last modified: 11-20-2016, 01:30 AM by Pckts )

Lets just leave it at this...
You believe it was a conspiracy that the Mapogos were secretly taken out by a shadow group and I do not.
Time to move on...
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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China fursan syed Offline
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#78

No other coalition of sabi sand called thugs or gangsters by people of sabi sands . Can anyone provide any articles about it.
One day's life of a lion is preferable to hundred years of a jackal "Tipu Sultan"
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United States Pckts Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-20-2016, 02:10 AM by Pckts )

(11-20-2016, 01:44 AM)fursan syed Wrote: No other coalition of sabi sand called thugs or gangsters by people of sabi sands . Can anyone provide any articles about it.
"Up until that time the area belonged to the gang of thugs known as the Mapogo’s. No male lion crosses into another’s domain without running a serious risk of being detected, discovered and possibly loosing your life. It was not long before two of the Mapogo males had discovered these new young up and coming males on their patch, attacking them instantly and severely mauling one of them, paralyzing him, leading to his death later on the same day. Later that afternoon the now four strong, upstarts must have been aware they had the upper hand and during a counter attack killed one of the Mapogo males, and abruptly bringing their infamous rein to a bloody end.
They had punctured his skull, breaking his zygomatic arch and removing a chunk out of the back of his cranium.
The next time we met their eyes held within an added confidence, as they now knew what they are capable of together. What is interesting is these new boys have begun their rule the same way as the Mapogo’s did just over three years ago and that is with the death of one of the old echelon. Where they came from is not important, what genes they carry is. As within in them lies the success or demise of the African Lion. I am sure we will be hearing more from these boys, as will the rest of the Sabi Sands Game Reserve.
Meet the new kings."

Humans use adjectives all the time to describe animals. They are called "Kings, Monsters, Thugs, Warlords, Killers, Lovers" and so on.


Another article from Graham


New Blood roams the Djuma driving area in the form of two new male lions in the area

There is a new wave of lion politics evolving in the greater northern section of the Sabi Sands, with the appearance of two new up and coming male lions, making themselves known to the local prides. They first appeared around a month or so ago inside Djuma's northern territories coming out of Manyaleti, their origins a mystery.
Both are in the early prime of their lives and have already ventured as far south as Djuma's boundary with northern Mala Mala. Mapogo territory and dangerous ground for new up and comming male lions. The string of dead lions left in the Mapogo's wake on just about the enitre reserve, is a worrying reminder of the Mapogo's power and range.
The two new comers have already been ushered back north by the Mapogo's, two have been seen up in the area and have been heard most nights issuing audible warnings to the new comers to steer clear of their land.
The previous two boys who attempted a take over were last seen by myself, at Buffelshoek Dam, on the 19th of June this year.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author


No one really knows what happend to them, one of the draw backs of being limited to the areas accessable to lions but not to us..........
Now with the new boys in the area and being very stand offish of the vehicles, with one of them being what I consider to be a true male lion, is highly aggrressive. A huge bonus to the area and he already has and will hopefully continue to be, a massive wake up call for alot of the guides in the area, as through him will come the lessons of how to treat a lion with the respect they deserve.
Here he is in all his glory we have only met once and I only managed to get a few shots of him, warning an in coming vehicle from another lodge, that he is not a cat to be messed with.
I just wish I could add the sound of his growl which we recieved on our approach to him, but managed to float through his comfort barrier with a tail flick, "I'll kill you in a second" look, and that unmistakle growl which seems to eminate from deeper within him than seems possible. An incredible sound.
*This image is copyright of its original author


The next shot is him about to charge the other car, but got his message across by sitting up and intensifying his growl, which the guide then got. He didn't seem to stay long in the sighting.

*This image is copyright of its original author

With a cat with an attitude like he has and the fact that the Mapogo coallition are not always together, leaves me wondering whether these two may be the slow demise of the reign of the Mapogo's. I think his side kick might be the one to really be careful of, as he slinks off into cover and observes everything. I have no idea of his character, but have learnt to be weary of the one that slink off and watches. If not these two boys there has also been a sighting of a coalition 6 young males in the area recently, which I personlly have not had the privlegde of meeting, yet. They are all around the three and a half to four year old mark, so another couple of months and the lions world could turn on its head once again.
Could be the days of the Mapogo's lounging around in their kingdom, be running out??

*This image is copyright of its original author

http://www.djuma.com/blog/?itemid=30


I once again fail to find any bashing of the mapogos or any lions for that matter, in fact, he specifically talks about it being good to have an aggressive large male which is a "huge bonus for the area"
Tourist love big predators, there is no higher request when going on safari than to see male lions or male tigers.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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United States Pckts Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-20-2016, 02:16 AM by Pckts )

The Mapogo story.


*This image is copyright of its original author
We (Karen in VA and Aquila) were asked to share some bits of information/background on the Mapogo Male Coalition with you. We have been gathering info from various sites (Mala Mala, Londolozi, Djuma, Nkorho, Elephant Plains, Singita, Arathusa, Ulusaba, Wildwatch) and their sightings databases along with a few helpful people answering the questions we sent their way.
Some of this information was first part of a Database that we were compiling for Africam. Graham asked if we would share this with the WE Viewers as well. We hope you find this info as interesting as we have.


*This image is copyright of its original author
Misty morning 03/05/08

Mapogo Coalition - 6 Male Lions also known as the Eyrefield Males, the Sparta Males and in some regions the "Cannibals". They were named Mapogo after a security company that utilizes rather harsh methods in dealing with offenders. We've found several different meanings for Mapogo.
Ulusaba refers to it as meaning "Vigilantes" and Savanna Lodge refers to the Mapogo name being a Zulu word meaning "Rogues". What ever the meaning, they are Bad News!
Pride they Originated From: Eyrefield Pride aka Sparta Pride. This pride still exists and consists of 3 adult females and 9 cubs. Two of the remaining Eyrefield pride lionesses are siblings of the Mapogos and the third and oldest lioness may very well be the Mother to some of them. The dominant male of this Pride today is the one remaining Roller Coaster/Shaw/Castleton Male.
Sired by: A Coalition of 5 Male Lions known as The West Street Males aka The Sparta Males. (Note: There is a twist to this story that we will share
a little later.)

*This image is copyright of its original author

1st day WE saw them on cam 12/27/07
These males took over the Eyrefield/Sparta pride from
the Manyeleti males in 1998. They were approximately 8 yrs of age at the time and successfully raised many cubs to adulthood during their reign.
The last of this coalition died in 2004 at the approximate age of 14 years or even older (some reports indicated the last two were plus/minus 16 yrs in 2003 when two of the original four Marthly/Split Rock/Robson males moved in).


*This image is copyright of its original author
After lioness & cubs were killed 03/13/08
The Oldest Mapogo Male is said to be unrelated to the other 5. The story is that the original pride (Eyrefield/Sparta) lost a male sub adult of 20 to 21 months of age in May/June 2000 and in July 2000 this male of about the same age latched on to the original pride. Though not readily accepted by the lionesses, the West Street Males barely tolerated him though they didn't kill him as he was no threat to their dominance due to his age.
His life was not an easy one as he was considered an outcast, yet this young lion became one of the boldest and most valued hunters by helping to keep the pride fed when the West Street males became too old.
Londolozi refers to the oldest Mapogo male as "Ngalalalekha". Ngala means lion so does lalekha mean "old, older, oldest"? Good question for Rexon.


*This image is copyright of its original author
Mr T After lioness & cubs were killed 03/13/08
This oldest Male is elusive. He is said to be bigger, bolder and darker than the other five. He is believed to be the sire of most of the Mapogo cubs that have been born so far but with more recent reports of matings it seems some of the other males will become fathers too if not already.
Prides that currently have cubs sired by a Mapogo are the Tsalala pride, the Othawa pride and the Sand River pride. More than likely, there are others as well.
One story about this older male that sticks out in our minds is when Londolozi reported a sighting of two hyena clans on a buffalo carcass. A group of approximately 25 adult elephants standing shoulder to shoulder with little ones behind them were staring the hyenas down. A noise was heard behind the vehicle and when the spotlight was shown in that direction an "enormous" male lion burst into their sight roaring louder than any roar they had ever heard before which sent 30 hyenas scattering. It was the leader of the six Mapogos. He stared down the wall of elephants which after about 5 minutes of standing their ground finally gave way to the lone male and moved off.

*This image is copyright of its original author
Giraffe Steal from Nkuhuma 01/12/08
The Other 5 Mapogo Males are said to be sired by the West Street Males but here is where the twist comes in...... the two youngest might have been sired by the Roller Coaster Males aka Shaw Males aka Castleton Males. The Roller Coaster males were believed to have started out as a Coalition of 6. Four of which enticed some of the Eyrefield/Sparta females into mating with them while the aging West Street males were away from the pride. Thus it is unclear who actually fathered the two youngest. And to add another little twist, it is said that the West Street Males who sired the Mapogos also fathered the Roller Coaster/Shaw/Castleton males.
Estimated ages of the Mapogo Coaliton as of May 2008:
Older Unrelated Male - 9 yrs 7 mos
Two Older Related Males - 7 yrs 4 1/2 mos
One a Little Younger Male - 7 yrs 2 mos
Two youngest males (possibly sired by the Roller Coaster Males) - 6 yrs 6 mos


*This image is copyright of its original author

Giraffe Steal from Nkuhuma 01/12/08
As you can see, the Mapogo Coalition is not the first nor will it be the last large coalition. Being the first large coalition the WE viewers have encountered, it is hard to comprehend that the current lion population can survive with all these killings but they will. The survivors of this onslaught will be the "new" beginning, the "next" generation just as the survivors of past large coalitions were. We don't like it and we don't have to like it but sadly it is the nature of things.
How have they impacted the lion population in just the couple of years they have been independent? Here are a few reports:
Londolozi reports five prides that have been adversely affected by the Mapogos. They cited these three: Castleton Pride originally 22 and down to 6; Tsalala Pride originally 10 and down to 5; Ximunvanyane Pride originally 10 down to ZERO. We can say fairly confidently, the number of prides adversely affected has risen since the Londolozi report.
Elephant Plains reported recently of receiving a report from Sabi Sands stating almost 40% of the lion population has been killed by the Mapogo Coalition in just the past year. That relates to approximately 50 lions.
(Our thoughts: Do these numbers also include deaths that occurred from the pressure that the Mapogo coalition has put on other prides and coalitions in the Sabi Sands area?)


*This image is copyright of its original author
Giraffe Steal from Nkuhuma 01/12/08
Quote from Elephant Plains referencing the Mapogos "Killing buffalo, adult giraffes, even young rhinos and hippos. And lions. And they were not just killing the lions..they were eating them"
More on their cannibalistic ways. On February 7th 2007, the Mapogos not only brutally killed "Rocky" aka the Serengeti/Kruger male but they ate him. "Rocky" was the dominant male that sired the 6 cubs of the two younger Tsalala pride lionesses. All those cubs have been killed except for one sub adult female. Currently the Tsalala pride falls under the dominance of the Mapogos. In the same report where Singita tells of "Rocky's" death, they mention the Mapogos being seen eating a dead lioness the previous year.
Hyenas better watch out too! We haven't seen any reports of them eating Hyenas but they do kill them as shown in this sighting from Singita.
http://www.singita.com/site/Wildlife/rangerdetails.asp?rangerid=207
Recently, the Elephant Plains Newsletter had a graphic photo of a Mapogo Male with a Hyena in it's mouth. Though the Hyena was not killed on the spot, it died from the injuries sustained.
Knowing how much we all love the Nkuhuma pride, we will only post the link to the killing of Blondie by the Mapogo Males. Reported by Arathusa, Dec 14, 2007. (Note: This is a PDF file)
http://www.arathusa.co.za/pdf/diaries/Dec0701.pdf
The Mapogo Males not only kill other males' cubs but cubs of their own.
Ulusaba reported in June 2007 that a split in the coalition had occurred (though this split seems to have only been temporary). During this report period the 5 related Mapogos killed the oldest unrelated Mapogo's cubs belonging to the Othawa lionesses.
The Mapogos seem to have banded back together as a coalition after the short term split in 2007, Ulusaba reported in March 2008 that the coalition had joined the Sand River pride on one of their occasional visits to see their offspring. They all shared in two wildebeest kills including the FIVE male cubs (beginning of another large coalition?). One of the cubs thought it would be fun to slap his sleeping Father on the nose. Boy oh boy did he find out that was a mistake. His Father exploded to his feet bearing down on the defenseless cub! Luckily, all the little one got was a good swat to his backside. LOL After some Motherly reassurance, the cub decided his siblings were a better target for that type of play.
Items that may be of Interest:


*This image is copyright of its original author
Mr T patrolling alone 02/03/08
To give you an idea of their strength, here is an awesome video posted by Youtube member mattwood22. Taking down a Buffalo Bull - January 2006. The dark mane one is the "oldest" Mapogo and there is one lioness with them also on this kill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RKBllKd590
It is only fair to show a softer side of the Mapogos. This article from Exeter/Wildwatch is about a sighting of one of the Mapogo Males (probably the oldest) interacting with his cubs. It includes some great pictures.
http://www.wildwatch.com/sightings/ottawa-pride-cubs-found

*This image is copyright of its original author
After lioness & cubs were killed 03/13/08
We hope this information has been helpful and may shed a new light on these bad boys. Are they BAD? Yes! Are they any worse than other large coalitions? Probably not, with the possible exception of their cannibalistic ways.. they tend to take that to an Extreme!
Please remember, this information is not set in stone as it is an evolving story and there are conflicting accounts.
Written by Aquila and Karen in VA

*This image is copyright of its original author



http://blog.wildearth.tv/2008/05/we-kare...ed-to.html
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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Greece LionKiss Offline
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#81

(11-20-2016, 01:20 AM)Pckts Wrote: Did you read the article?
He absolutely makes no harsh statements towards the Mapogos, in fact, the article isn't really about them. He also compares the new challengers to the Mapogos and talks about their similarities. So in your mind, he hates the Mapogos but loves the other coalition?

Also, using your reasoning...
How do you know they had any vendettas against the Mapogos?
Burden of proof is on you, you're making these claims you should have real evidence to back them.

the Mapogos were hated because they have killed over 100 lions and people wanted to split them in 3 and relocate them in different areas.

they were deeply hated and 
there are videos talking about "renew the gene pool"
tourists have said that guides did not want them in their area.

I have nothing to prove 
if you believe it fine,
if not it does not really matter anyway.
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Argentina Mungu Offline
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#82

(11-09-2016, 09:01 PM)Tshokwane Wrote: Sanjay: Instead of polluting the Mapogos thread, You guys can discuss and debate about the Mapogos fall in this thread, Is it human or is it natural ?

(11-09-2016, 06:28 PM)fursan syed Wrote: I will post more info about how humans contributed in there fall.

"Info"

Sure thing.

Apart from that unicorn land where you want to put them, in real life two coalitions brought them down from their throne. Humans had nothing to do. Don't misinform people.

Man has yet to understand that he is a part of the ecosystem aswell . In this sense, when understanding why these type of events happen, it is convenient to use perspective and thus, in the process, unlock oneself from our own personality. Why? Because we use our preferences of choice and our decision is always, by default, linked to our humour and emotions about them; that is, we are attached to our decisions and more fiercely when they are proven mistaken. It has certainly been a folly of man to intervene in nature already long ago by reducing lion population almost to extinction; and, the raw and natural status of Africa, for example, will never be restored. Thus, it is necessary to keep watch for this population to grow and although humans may push for them to re join a wild dynamics, their genes have already been influenced with alien (human in this case) information. This explains the political decision of the rangers to give way to Mapogo demise. This is also a result of man being PART of the ecosystem. This is not to say the decision, as it may very possibly have been, is right; on the contrary, it means that the judgement of the decision responded to a logic of profit to man, on the expense of others foe or sibling; as it`s sadly, the way it always is, un less; man decides dettaching himself of his humor and emotions..in short, quit being fking selfish.

My personal take is that, it is obvious that Mr T would have never stop the chase, let alone, leave a battle that he was clearly leading and seeking with his usual desperate animal trait. It was never even possible, right up to that very specific night, he was late almost 20 min to find the loudest racket within 100 km2....that behaviour, in Mr T, has never been witnessed..unless...he was darted. 
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Argentina Tshokwane Offline
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#83
( This post was last modified: 04-24-2018, 04:51 AM by Tshokwane )

@Mungu 

What is your comment, exactly?
‘Like night-watchmen they patrol the dark nights; marching with intent and chasing all those unwanted into the shadows…those that do not run are removed’
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Argentina Mungu Offline
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#84

(04-24-2018, 04:51 AM)Tshokwane Wrote: @Mungu 

What is your comment, exactly?

Basically, that there is human intervention, always and in each every case. Mr T was darted and Mapogo heritage was also extinguished at will and specifically as it happened with sub-adult male Mapogos, targeted and hunted down after being presumed guilty of cattle attacks. But, in any case, everything that happens is, let`s say, "guided" by park politics (that includes local pressure); nothing here is, strictly, of "natural becoming".

One thing is true though, that the Mapogo "propaganda" has penetrated vigorously after the documentary; factor that plays a heavy emotional role in this case.
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Argentina Tshokwane Offline
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#85

(04-24-2018, 05:13 AM)Mungu Wrote: Basically, that there is human intervention, always and in each every case. Mr T was darted and Mapogo heritage was also extinguished at will and specifically as it happened with sub-adult male Mapogos, targeted and hunted down after being presumed guilty of cattle attacks. But, in any case, everything that happens is, let`s say, "guided" by park politics (that includes local pressure); nothing here is, strictly, of "natural becoming".

Nah, I disagree completely.

Fanatics started that BS just because they don't have anything useful to do and now people has been mislead, and repeat it.

In comparison to other places where there's actual human intervention on the animals like, say, in the desert or in the mara, not even there it's done to "extinguish a certain coalition's heritage", it's just what people do to survive( as it often happens, in conflicts with cattle).

Sacando eso, estamos en algún grupo juntos en Facebook?
‘Like night-watchmen they patrol the dark nights; marching with intent and chasing all those unwanted into the shadows…those that do not run are removed’
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Argentina Mungu Offline
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#86

(04-24-2018, 05:22 AM)Tshokwane Wrote:
(04-24-2018, 05:13 AM)Mungu Wrote: Basically, that there is human intervention, always and in each every case. Mr T was darted and Mapogo heritage was also extinguished at will and specifically as it happened with sub-adult male Mapogos, targeted and hunted down after being presumed guilty of cattle attacks. But, in any case, everything that happens is, let`s say, "guided" by park politics (that includes local pressure); nothing here is, strictly, of "natural becoming".

Nah, I disagree completely.

Fanatics started that BS just because they don't have anything useful to do and now people has been mislead, and repeat it.

In comparison to other places where there's actual human intervention on the animals like, say, in the desert or in the mara, not even there it's done to "extinguish a certain coalition's heritage", it's just what people do to survive( as it often happens, in conflicts with cattle).

Sacando eso, estamos en algún grupo juntos en Facebook?
...I consider that taking down 5 males at once, being from whatever coalition, to be not an event of fortune. It happens that, these 5 were Mapogo lineage.. that is a fact... 


..no que yo sepa..salutti
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