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Fall of Mapogos Lions

Argentina Tshokwane Offline
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#1
( This post was last modified: 11-10-2016, 10:32 AM by sanjay Edit Reason: Head statement is added )

Sanjay: Instead of polluting the Mapogos thread, You guys can discuss and debate about the Mapogos fall in this thread, Is it human or is it natural ?

(11-09-2016, 06:28 PM)fursan syed Wrote: I will post more info about how humans contributed in there fall.

"Info"

Sure thing.

Apart from that unicorn land where you want to put them, in real life two coalitions brought them down from their throne. Humans had nothing to do. Don't misinform people.
‘Like night-watchmen they patrol the dark nights; marching with intent and chasing all those unwanted into the shadows…those that do not run are removed’
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China fursan syed Offline
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(11-09-2016, 09:01 PM)Majingilane Wrote:
(11-09-2016, 06:28 PM)fursan syed Wrote: I will post more info about how humans contributed in there fall.

"Info"

Sure thing.

Apart from that unicorn land where you want to put them, in real life two coalitions brought them down from their throne. Humans had nothing to do. Don't misinform people.

are you blind ? or truely naive ?.  read the info i posted before about dreadlocks poaching. and thats not the fantasies like mapogo vs othawa boys instead of matimbas that you posted in other threads without any evidence . dreadlocks was the most powerful Mapogo in 2010. dreads poaching made mapogos vulnerable the story could be change if he was there when selaties arrived in 2012.  
One day's life of a lion is preferable to hundred years of a jackal "Tipu Sultan"
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(11-09-2016, 09:01 PM)Majingilane Wrote: Don't misinform people.

You really need some info.  . mapogos thread was not a 18 page thread if you really have much info about it. i keeped an eye on this thread from months before joining the forum . dont delete my posts 
One day's life of a lion is preferable to hundred years of a jackal "Tipu Sultan"
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Argentina Tshokwane Offline
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(11-09-2016, 10:49 PM)fursan syed Wrote: dreadlocks was the most powerful Mapogo in 2010. dreads poaching made mapogos vulnerable the story could be change if he was there when selaties arrived in 2012.  

Yes, Dreadlocks was poached. That is true and there's evidence of that. I have never questioned it.

Now, for the rest of the things? 

"People contributed to the Mapogos fall"

Give me a break. They lived very well and quietly for two more years. It's just that they were old lions

Would they have been able to hold on a little bit longer had they been four? Maybe, maybe not. They would still have been old, and younger, fitter rivals like the Selati males would have had eventually challenged and beat them, like it happens to every coalition.

So don't blame people for natural things. Yes, Dreads was poached, but he wasn't singled out for the "unique evil purpose of doing harm to the Mapogos especially", like you want it to make it look like.
‘Like night-watchmen they patrol the dark nights; marching with intent and chasing all those unwanted into the shadows…those that do not run are removed’
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(11-10-2016, 12:58 AM)Majingilane Wrote:
(11-09-2016, 10:49 PM)fursan syed Wrote: dreadlocks was the most powerful Mapogo in 2010. dreads poaching made mapogos vulnerable the story could be change if he was there when selaties arrived in 2012.  

Yes, Dreadlocks was poached. That is true and there's evidence of that. I have never questioned it.

Now, for the rest of the things? 

"People contributed to the Mapogos fall"

Give me a break. They lived very well and quietly for two more years. It's just that they were old lions

Would they have been able to hold on a little bit longer had they been four? Maybe, maybe not. They would still have been old, and younger, fitter rivals like the Selati males would have had eventually challenged and beat them, like it happens to every coalition.

So don't blame people for natural things. Yes, Dreads was poached, but he wasn't singled out for the "unique evil purpose of doing harm to the Mapogos especially", like you want it to make it look like.

My point is proved . If humans not killed dreads may be they stay one or two years more. And no body can deny the dozens of unanswered questions and foggy issues are in mapogos history. Why they silent for 5 whole years..
One day's life of a lion is preferable to hundred years of a jackal "Tipu Sultan"
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Argentina Tshokwane Offline
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(11-10-2016, 01:06 AM)fursan syed Wrote: My point is proved . If humans not killed dreads may be they stay one or two years more.

No, you don't know that. 

It's a guess based on your belief, but anyone can guess the other possibility.

Using the Majingilane as example. They are four strong, right? 

So let's say the four Birminghams go today and try to take over Majingilane land.

Can you state 100% that, just by virtue of having the same numbers, that they will win? 

Because I can't. I'm confident that they can do it, but I can't say they would win for sure, and that is even with the Majingilane being younger than what the Mapogos were in 2012.
Quote:And no body can deny the dozens of unanswered questions and foggy issues are in mapogos history.

Yes, we can. Because they were just animals, not politicians or celebrities. Just animals, like any other animal around them.
‘Like night-watchmen they patrol the dark nights; marching with intent and chasing all those unwanted into the shadows…those that do not run are removed’
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(11-10-2016, 02:02 AM)fursan syed Wrote: Mapogos were unlucky hated by many humans when they were alive.

At first maybe, it happens to all new coalitions. With time, no.

Quote:There 5 sons killed because of the pressure of local population of limpopo.

No, they were killed because they kept going into where people lived in killed the livestock, putting people's life in danger.

Funny how that little detail gets left behind all the time to further a narrative.
‘Like night-watchmen they patrol the dark nights; marching with intent and chasing all those unwanted into the shadows…those that do not run are removed’
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(11-10-2016, 03:34 AM)Majingilane Wrote:
(11-10-2016, 02:02 AM)fursan syed Wrote: Mapogos were unlucky hated by many humans when they were alive.

At first maybe, it happens to all new coalitions. With time, no.

Quote:There 5 sons killed because of the pressure of local population of limpopo.

No, they were killed because they kept going into where people lived in killed the livestock, putting people's life in danger.

Funny how that little detail gets left behind all the time to further a narrative.


Seems like you are trying to justifying the killings. They can be moved to some other reserve killing was not a single option in that case. But there killing orders are made because of a pressure of local population. You needs more info as i said before. And you are not posting anything about mapogos just debating others and irritating them and telling them your thoughts without any evidence all you have is what you think . 
 What i am posting is with evidence . And one more thing no other coalition of sabi sand have that much foggy issues like mapogos have. also if you argue me next time argue me with evidence or stay silent its better because all you say in argue is what you think about the issues. Its a wild fact forum not a wild thought forum. 
One day's life of a lion is preferable to hundred years of a jackal "Tipu Sultan"
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Greece LionKiss Offline
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Only Trophy Hunters and Poachers justify the killing of a lion
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Killing of Mapogo Offsprings the Sand River Males and lionesses


Statement of Willem botha: "everybody blame and critisice te white people in the photo who was involved in the shooting of the lions. the big culprits are the three chiefs of dumphries village who insisted thats the lions should be destroyed after eating their cattle. we attempted to bait and dart the lions and take them back to the sabi sands but members of the local population on instruction of the chiefs chased the lions away from the bait. they also threatened members of the sabi sands and mtpa with violence should we attempt to dart the lions. at one stage we wanted to leave the area the but were blocked by the local population and were told that we could not leave before the lions were destroyed. that was when a group of huntets with their dogs from lydenburg was called to assist the authorities. dreadlocks also left the reserve in the north of the reserve at the kokovelo river where he on various occasions left the reserve to seek easy prey in the community outside the reserve. there he was caught in a snare which was set near a carcass of a cow which he caught the previous night." after he was asked if that means that dreadlocks was killed by the local population here is his answer: "yes. as was many other animals that left the reserve."




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One day's life of a lion is preferable to hundred years of a jackal "Tipu Sultan"
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United States Pckts Offline
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(11-10-2016, 11:51 AM)LionKiss Wrote: Only Trophy Hunters and Poachers justify the killing of a lion

Villagers kill big cats all the time...
Eat their cattle and they poison the cattle which in turn poisons every cat who eats it and every creature who eats it as well. It's an indiscriminate killing that happens anywhere villagers and predators cohabitat.
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Greece LionKiss Offline
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(11-10-2016, 07:26 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-10-2016, 11:51 AM)LionKiss Wrote: Only Trophy Hunters and Poachers justify the killing of a lion

Villagers kill big cats all the time...
Eat their cattle and they poison the cattle which in turn poisons every cat who eats it and every creature who eats it as well. It's an indiscriminate killing that happens anywhere villagers and predators cohabitat.

you are wrong, this does not apply to Sabi Sands.
SS is a fenced area, Lions can't go out to the residential area, it is very strange how those Mapogo sons went out.
Even this is not clear.
Some say the fence collapsed due to heavy raining, some other say the lions opened holes under the fence,
I say that they lured them out of the fenced area in order to kill them.

What you describe above happens in they complete wild where Humans and Lions co-exist. Just for your info.
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( This post was last modified: 11-11-2016, 03:37 AM by Pckts )

@LionKiss
Sabi sand and Kruger share an unfenced boundary and if you think lions don't find their way in and out of "fenced" areas you'd be incorrect.

Also, what do you mean "residential area?"

Villagers and all animals share habitat in those parts. In tanzania, the Maasai walk their cattle to graze in the crater every day.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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Greece LionKiss Offline
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Kruger is fenced too, animals can't go out,

Tanzania and Mara is not the same as SS and Kruger,
you make false comparisons,
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United States Pckts Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-11-2016, 07:41 PM by Pckts )

(11-11-2016, 11:50 AM)LionKiss Wrote: Kruger is fenced too, animals can't go out,

Tanzania and Mara is not the same as SS and Kruger,
you make false comparisons,

SS has an open border with Kruger.

"Eastern and part and southern sides open to Kruger"
https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g4..._Park.html

"Even though there is a 50km unfenced boundary with Kruger"
http://www.sabi-sands.com

Now if you're talking about the entire Greater Kruger national park, that is fenced off but not effectively as I'll post below and the GKNP is massive, 20,000,000 hectares of unfenced land with in it. But you said they can't leave the SS but if comparing it to Tanzania, yes it isn't the same, this is true.


http://www.krugerpark.co.za/krugerpark-t...20761.html



Where exactly did I "make false comparisons?"
I was giving an example of villager animal conflict.
I know the San live in s. Africa and I'm sure other tribes as well.
http://www.krugerpark.co.za/africa_bushmen.html



Villagers kill marauding lions from Kruger for attacking their cattle.
http://allafrica.com/stories/199811150048.html
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
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