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Experience with Wild Cats
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 (06-30-2014, 06:44 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote:'Pckts dateline='' Wrote:'Pantherinae dateline='' Wrote: Yeah I agree, did you see the male lion pictures and videos of them killing bulls, that i posted on lion predation??I did, but they were multiple males, correct? The video states that "it was now 22hrs later and the buffalo bull the lion's attacked yesterday is still alive" "Badly injured front leg the bull just couldn't get up" So this bull was attacked by multiple lions and had a broken front leg and was unable to stand. So not quite lone lion vs lone bull. So think about that though, I'm sure you looked all over to find something since our debate, yet still there is nothing that I have seen on it. Pretty crazy that quite a few accounts of Bull Gaur being killed by tigers exist though. Imagine what a battle like that must look like when its going down. 
Oh I'm sorry I haven't heard that, before again sorry, to be honest I haven't looked that much, but I have done that before. And it's hard to find lone male lions hunting they are usually in a coalition, and so few solitary males! But I'm sure a big male can do it, even tho there is multiply lions, male lions sure makes a difference when coming in.
Yeah can you Imagen what that would look like? A tiger vs gaur bull!! Wow have images all over my head! That is rare for a tiger to take on, but they do happen! And please someone film that! 
Normally in some vdeo hunts you see on lion is normally doing most of the work, some of the others are causing problems and getting in the way.
Its highly likley male lion can singly take down bull if a lioness can singly take down cow.[img]images/smilies/smile.gif[/img] 'TheLioness dateline='' Wrote: Normally in some vdeo hunts you see on lion is normally doing most of the work, some of the others are causing problems and getting in the way. I do also think a male lion can kill a bull, but it's a hard job! You should think so, but there is a bigger difference between a bull and Cow buffalo than there is between a male lion and a lioness. Bull cape buffalos are the most aggressive bovine there is! They are agile, have thick skinn, everything those bulls are beast's I have experience with them, one time I almost got killed by one! I wasn't careful enought when i was unexperienced and the bull almost caught me between the bars cool animals who deserves a massive respect!
Of course there is a huge difference compared from male and female buffalo than male and female lion, silly me, I can see the difference here with domestic cows. I live on a farm and the difference is huge, the angus cows do not compare to the black death of africa but you can understand a little about the size and agility of such animals by viewing these cows! [img]images/smilies/smile.gif[/img]
'TheLioness dateline='' Wrote: Of course there is a huge difference compared from male and female buffalo than male and female lion, silly me, I can see the difference here with domestic cows. I live on a farm and the difference is huge, the angus cows do not compare to the black death of africa but you can understand a little about the size and agility of such animals by viewing these cows! [img]images/smilies/smile.gif[/img] Me to grew up on a farm, [img]images/smilies/smile.gif[/img] And we also had some bulls there they are a thunder, and they can't compare to the cape buffalo, in neither aggression or strength!
Cape buffalo are massive beasts, that is why a bull is such a respected animal. Very few animals could stand up to a bull rhino, albeit, it wasn't a good move for the bull but he still did it.
Have you seen bull gaur? What is the size difference like? 'Pckts dateline='' Wrote: Cape buffalo are massive beasts, that is why a bull is such a respected animal. Very few animals could stand up to a bull rhino, albeit, it wasn't a good move for the bull but he still did it. Yeah against that rhino he had no chance! But still impressive, where i did work he also chased elephants! So an impressive animal for sure! I have seen a bull gaur, not in the wild, but in a Zoo ( they are rare in zoo's), but he looked fit! And the size of the gaur amazed me! The hight was shoocking! Not that much bigger than a cape atleast the neck, of cape buffalos do seem stronger, but the shoulders of the gaur is just out off this world! A bull gaur is bigger than a cape buffalo bull, and females are about the same no noteble difference! :-)
I always thought evolution would of given gaurs a thicker neck especially since you saw raja apply a throat grip so easily, but there must be a evolutionary reason for it.
Indian Water buffalo have massive necks, have you seen them in person? 'Pckts dateline='' Wrote: I always thought evolution would of given gaurs a thicker neck especially since you saw raja apply a throat grip so easily, but there must be a evolutionary reason for it.I have seen water buffalo, but it's such a long time ago that I can't remember the size exactly.... But they do seem to have large and thick neck. Yeah me to, but maybe it has something to do with the massive shoulders, a neck match those shoulders would made foraging hard, to bend down! First thing I did when i saw the gaur was compare him to cape buffalos, and the neck was the only place the buffalo seem'd the have more compact! Also the skinn looks thicker on cape buffalos! But I have only looked at a gaur never tutched one, so hard to say!
Credits to Apollo for this great article on Kaziranga and there Tigers.
I think Kaziranga is your next adventure, Pantherinae. It may be mine, sounds pretty incredible. Here is the article Valmik Thappar has seen it all, so you know he knows wildlife. Here is an article written by Valmik Thappar Kaziranga is the land of the megafauna — the rhino, tiger, elephant and the wild buffalo — and the greatest story of India's wildlife conservation. Nothing can prepare you for the experience of Kaziranga National Park. You have to visit it to believe it and when I went there for the first time I was very lucky — old friend and colleague S Deb Roy, an amazing man who had put his life into saving Assam's incredible wildlife, was with me. This was the early 1990s, when the severe crisis that threatens wildlife in general hadn't set in. Kaziranga was stunning. It is a grassland of immense proportions and dotted around are patches of superb forests with the mighty Brahmaputra river flowing on one side. My first day was a journey from the western range then administered by a remarkable ranger called Pankaj Sarma to the eastern range under another dynamic character called Bodo. Deb Roy and I spent 10 hours from dawn to dusk enveloped in the beauty of this unique wilderness system. I will never forget that day. Nature wove its spell around me like never before. In that one day, we saw 108 rhinos. At a watchtower called Bahubil in the western range, we sipped some hot tea and suddenly a burst of alarm calls on the far side of the tall grass revealed a tiger striding along the edge of a water body. Kaziranga has the highest density of tigers in India and they are enormous in size. We peered out, as the tiger padded across, oblivious of our presence. Later, when we stopped for lunch at an old forest rest house, a herd of elephants was bathing in another water body. Kaziranga is the only place in India that reminds me of Africa —wildlife comes out of everywhere. It is the great land of the giants, the megafauna, be it rhinos, elephants, wild buffalos, and even a few gaur with lots of smaller ungulates and a host of tigers that are huge and generally look well-fed. And it is these large animals that guard the grassland. Unlike many other forests of India, you rarely find locals wandering around Kaziranga since the big animals will charge to kill. Even while driving around in a jeep, at least six rhinos tried to charge us. And it is even more frightening when a tiger charges. As we drove around, I noticed that all the forest staff were well armed, unlike in any other national park. They live on forest posts on stilts and eat a jungle menu of cane and bamboo shoots that are deliciously spiced. The human intruders are poachers armed with automatic rifles who come mainly to kill rhinos for their horn. Big gun battles rage between the forest staff and poachers and every year there are injuries and fatalities. This is a rare example of how wildlife can be saved. Protection at its very best and a lesson for the rest of India. For me, Kaziranga is a veritable Noah's ark and has been India's greatest story in wildlife conservation. Let us never forget that in the early 20th century the population of rhinos was down to 12 and today it is between 1,600 and 1,800, if not more. And it is not just rhinos or other megafauna. The bird life is among the finest to be found anywhere in India, as lesser and greater pied hornbills screech through the air and an endless array of fishing eagles swoops into fish-laden water bodies and red jungle fowl dart in and out of lush green foliage. Thousands of pelicans fish the water in abandon and near the swamps the swamp partridge waddles in its exquisite finery. If you are lucky, you can watch otters scamper across the land into water, with heads bobbing up and down as they start to fish. A grey-headed eagle swoops into the water and comes out with a fish caught firmly in its talons. Pockets of forest within the grasslands are a frenzy of green and so much of what grows is coiled, looped and encircled in an endless embrace. In the hilly forests nearby are troops of hoolock gibbons and capped langurs and there could even be the elusive clouded leopard. Emerald doves and imperial pigeons dive in and out of the forest canopy. The smaller grasslands are dotted with hog deer and swamp deer. Hundreds of thousands of hog deer once roamed the flood plains of India. Now they are only found in places where their habitat has survived the exploitation by man. Small herbivores in these grasslands follow in the steps of the giants. It is interdependency at its best. The elephants and rhinos make inroads into the high grass and create areas for smaller animals to graze. The sambar hide in the evergreen forest glades. What a magical assortment of life it is. The peace is suddenly shattered by the sharp calls of the hog deer. And, lo and behold, from the grass emerges that mesmeric image of a tiger, catching the rays of the setting sun. Will Kaziranga survive the pressures of today? Will there be enough political will to keep this unique paradise alive? I'm not sure, but this is more than a World Heritage Site — it is a true wonder of the world and needs all the support we can give it. Future generations must be able to witness its magic for it is the true jewel in India's wildlife crown. http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/gr...s/710692/0
You know what, Kaziranga do seem like a fantastic place! and it's between Kaziranga, tadoba, and Okavango! But Tadoba looks pretty much the same as Bandavgarh I've been told and it would be fun to see tigers in a different habitat! Aswell as rhinos, water buffalo and elephats, and thats animal I have never seen before in the wild!
Thanks for posting! so Great to read about how well they protect their wildlife there! And thats the most important thing of all! So many beuatiful species there, that even tho you didn't see any tiger the experience would be fantastic! (06-30-2014, 05:41 AM)'TheLioness' Wrote: Raja is a beautiful male tiger, he impresses me so. He is still rather young right? Here are a couple more of the "Raja infront of the Jeep" sequence.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author This picture really shows what I was saying, the shoulder is high but the curvature of the spine with the high back gives the impression of shorter shoulder height. But can tell he is no short tiger.  (06-30-2014, 02:47 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote:'Pckts dateline='' Wrote: Nice info. I definitely would not say "fairytale weight" for the simply fact of Madla being 260kg+ just to use a recent tiger and Kaziranga tigers are definitely larger than madla. 40kg's more is definintely possible IMO. Interesting numbers, Pantherinae. A captive adult male big cat of 400 pounds (181,44 kg.) in good shape is an impressive animal. A 500-pound (226,8 kg.) cat is real big and 600 pounds (272,16 kg.) is immense. There are no pure Indian tigers in European zoo's as far as I know, but there are plenty of Amur tigers and they top the list for averages. Prime males average 480-500 pounds according to Eagle Raptor (a poster at AVA who had personal experience with captive Amur tigers and weighed quite a lot of them), but there is a lot of individual variation (healthy males in good condition range between 350-600 pounds roughly, with some up to 700). In the seventies and eighties of the last century I saw some that could have been bigger, but these Amurs (probably descendants of the wave of Amur tigers shipped to Europe after World War Two) are gone forever, I think. There isn't much to choose between extra-large lions and tigers (in captivity), but tigers of large subspecies do 10 feet straight and 550 pounds empty more often than lions. One reason could be size pays in solitary big cats and not in social big cats. It's more outspoken in wild animals than in captive big cats, because apex-predators have to respond as fast as possible to the local conditions. In general, lions seem to do quite well in captivity, whereas tigers don't. Your dad's estimates seem quite close, but he could be a bit low on some of the Indian tigers. As far as I know, 20 males or thereabout have been weighed in India. Of these, two (in Nepal) exceeded a 600-pound scale, whereas two in Central-Indian reserves exceeded 550 pounds according to experienced researchers. The Nepal males didn't seem that massive, but they were long. Central India tigers often are massive animals. I'm not surprised at 500-plus Kruger lions, but I have some doubts as to alleged size of the Okavango water-lions. In wild big cats (and tigers in particular), there seems to be a strong correlation between total length and weight. I'm interested in your dad's experience. Could you give us a bit more? To finish the post, a few pictures of 2 captive European Amur tigers and 2 wild lions. All large to extra-large: 1 - Okavango male on his way to work. The Jouberts, in their great book on Okavango lions and Cape buffalos, offered a lot of great photographs. This male seemed average in length, but he was massive. I'm not sure about his size. I do know water-tigers (referring to Vietnam and the Sunderbans), when there were still plenty of 'm, apart from a few exceptions, usually were shortish and massive. But they didn't hunt buffalos, at least not for a living:  *This image is copyright of its original author 2 - The famous Duisburg Zoo male Amur tiger. In his prime, at 320 cm. in total length straight and 110 cm. at the shoulder (standing), he was estimated at 280-300 kg. by Dr. Gewalt (who measured the tiger when he was sedated for treatment). He was born in Rotterdam Zoo. I saw his dad when he was close to the end. He was tall, very long and had a large skull, but was definitely below 300 pounds. To say he was thin as a rail would be an understatement. When captive tigers get real old, they often are reduced to skin and bones just before the end. I never saw this in captive lions. Anyhow, his son was plenty big in his prime:  *This image is copyright of its original author 3 - Male Amur tiger in a Slovak facility. I thought it was called Tiger Oasis, but you have to ask Amnon, who first posted this picture. This is close to the two very large Manchurian tigers I saw in the seventies, although they seemed more massive. Tigers in Korea, Manchuria and south-east Russia all are Panthera tigris altaica and the genetic difference between them and Caspian tigers is close to zilch. Based on what I read and found, Manchurian tigers could have been the largest, closely followed by south-east Russia. Confirmed in today's tigers, as those in north-east China seem to be a bit heavier than those further north. A question of food, I think. Manchurian tigers disappeared in the last century. The Jankowski's shot a very large male in 1943. After the war, China lost its tigers. In the fifties and sixties, the Russians caught and exported a lot of cubs. Some of these could have been from Manchuria, which was occupied by the Russians in 1945. They seemed to be different from those captured in Sichote-Alin, but it could have been individual variation. I don't know. I do know some of these cubs grew into prehistoric monsters. They disappeared in the eighties.  *This image is copyright of its original author 4 - Wild male lion (southern part of Africa). There was a lot of talk about his weight on different animal forums. One reason is animals of his size are few and far between. But they are there and they are, just as in captivity, close to the largest tigers. The difference in weight between extra-large animals of both species is, I think, due to a difference in total length and fore-limbs. Extra-large lions have extra-large skulls and big chests, but they are a bit shorter and lack the very massive fore-limbs seen in some wild male tigers. The reason is tigers need them, whereas lions need something different. I'm not sure about this one. I thought they said 280 kg., but there was, ehhh, some difference of opinion regarding the reliability. Difficult to assess from a picture. But there's no question he is big:  *This image is copyright of its original author
@peter
Hi Nice takling to you Peter. Thanks for great info. The thing with the Okavango is that it's not like the sundabans,for an example. Who is a very hard place to live, hard to hunt and the food is more scerse ( sorry if spelled wrong). The Okavango is dry one half of the year and muddy the other part. And prey is plenty. Many lions prides in dry seasons there, has learned the tecniuqe of killinge elephants. And one pide called Xakanaxa pide killed 5 elephants on 1 mounth. So the Okavango is more like Kaziranga than the sundabans. And the tigers there are an other storry. When it comes to the weights, well I have read, been told so many weight's who in my head are just fantasi weights, there is no doubt that tigers as bamera are massive, but a 250 kg wild cat is actually quite rare, even with the biggest cat's. Let's say bamera was indeed 250 kg, what weight would wagdoh be? Who is said to be not just bigger, but another leauge than bamera. Wagdoh would the probably have been 290-310, and what about the tigers at Kaziranga they Must be 340 kg... So for me who has seen him he is not that big, and B2 my dad said was smaller, and after seeing him dead with those people, even tho he is dead and has been sick and injured for a long time, his length is actually very little impressive, I have even seen darted tigress'es who looks just as long. So that he can be 200+ kg might be realistic. But these are just estimates, who knows the real weight, maybe I have underestimated them who knows, but as I'm working with big cats and one very big lion, that bamera can match his weight no way IMO. I hope you don't think I was trying to make the lions look bigger, I know tigers are bigger, and weigh's more. So in my mind, I have that a normal bengal everywhere exept Kaziranga does Max at 260. While Kaziranga tigers Max out at 280 kg, but I have never seen a big male like that so hard to say. And lions at 240 kg. Maybe some extreme lions do 250 kg in the wild. Thanks for those great pictures, that lion is a big lion but no way near 280 kg IMO! Probably 220-230 kg! |
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