Dholes (Cuon alpinus)

[Shadow]

(01-27-2019, 01:06 PM)Wolverine Wrote:

(01-27-2019, 12:58 PM)Rishi Wrote:

(01-27-2019, 12:30 PM)Wolverine Wrote: To every gaur hunted by tiger in India shot on camera we have probably 200 videos of cape bufallos hunted by lions filmed in Africa. So in order to film a tiger attacked by IWD probably we need 200 more years.

I don't believe 100% in dholes killing tigers, probably... 50/50, nor less than 50% and no more than 50%.

At the present rate of development of wildlife tourism in Indian & conservation successes, 20 years shuold be enough.
And dholes probably will never "dominate" (dancing around not counted) tigers 50% of times. That'd take 20+ packs, with experienced adults & aggressive leadership, a combination that was & would remain a rarity.

The news from Panna is unusual... 5 is too low a number.

(01-27-2019, 05:16 AM)smedz Wrote: I saw you boosted my reputation due to a post on this thread I think, which one was it?

The "star" below everyone's posts. Actually if you touch/place mouse pointer over all those buttons, a pop-up will display its name.

Ha ha ha. Buddy I am sayng that I believe only 50% that dholes has ever killed tigers, nothing about domination. In other words I am only a have believer of theory of killings....

About Panna, I don't know what to think, probably is not verified but there are details of the names of the veterinarian and the director.

I don´t think, that 5 is too low number to it, that some dhole snaps tiger and cause some wound. After all it is more about it, that there is one very aggressive and brave dhole in a group and dare to make that attack. 5 is too small number if we think real danger for a tiger, but as we have seen and when considering for instance what Anderson described, then that Panna case is quite possible. There is too little information to say too much and of course we can have different kind of opinions about single cases.  Still it is good to get information about every possible case, old or new. 

Time for bigger conclusions is for sure later, when it starts to look like, that no more information can be found. At this point it is good still to share every bit of information, I think. Especially if there are places, names, times, anything giving possibilities to maybe find more information. Reply

[Shadow]

That veterinarian Sanjeev Gupta is mentioned in other articles too and he has facebook profile too, where is mentioned, that he works in Panna tiger reserve.

Here some articles about tigers and Gupta is also mentioned in all of them. Those articles are about tigers and nothing really to do with dholes. I put those there because sometimes we can see sources with names, that can´t be found anywhere. What comes to Sanjeev Gupta, he is there and anyone can send him questions and ask more, who knows he might answer and give good information.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/brunch/en...fsinM.html

https://indianexpress.com/article/india/...na-tigers/

https://newsroom24x7.com/2015/01/04/t3-t...r-reserve/

https://newsroom24x7.com/2017/06/12/pann...na-tigers/

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city...500993.cms Reply

[smedz]

(01-27-2019, 12:30 PM)Wolverine Wrote:

(01-26-2019, 03:15 AM)smedz Wrote:  The only way I'll ever believe these tales is if I ever see a film, photograph, or an actually verified account. Not eyewitness testimony, the weakest form of evidence.

Eyewitnessing is the main form of the field zoology since centuries. If we deny eyewitnessing there is nothing to be left from traditional science. Videos and advanced cameras exist from several decades. What else could have done a classical biologist or hunter than to observe and register on paper. To "prove" something in the science doesnt mean to make a photo or video, that's ridicolous. When Jane Goodal observed chimps or Diane Fossey - gorillas their main instruments were notebook and pencil, they didn't need to prove their theories by videos, nevertheless we believe them.


You need a photo or video prove. Ok, you can for now (temporarily) consider the video showing how pack of AWD (African wild dogs) attacked the lioness, (posted by Rishi) as a 50% prove that same thing could be done by IWD (Indian wild dogs) to tiger; there is no big difference. Look carefuly what could eventually happen to the tiger:

Filming in the open plains of Africa is 50 times easier than filming in the dense jungles of India and India is still not so attractive for proffesional photographs. To every gaur hunted by tiger in India shot on camera we have probably 200 videos of cape bufallos hunted by lions filmed in Africa. So in order to film a tiger attacked by IWD probably we need 200 more years.... And when this happen probably we're  not gonna see almost nothing from the scene due to the branches and the leafes of the trees. Only option is development of some new technologies permiting jungles to be screened or thousands of drones...

I think brother you misunderstand what I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to convince that dholes attacked and killed tigers but only try to convince that there is enough high possibility something like this did happen. I don't believe 100% in dholes killing tigers, probably... 50/50, nor less than 50% and no more than 50%.

Here is piece of news about attack from 2013, I think not very reliable, that's why I'm not posting the info, only give a link, from Panna NP:

https://zeenews.india.com/news/eco-news/...77236.html

Well here's the difference, those people's observations didn't involve apes acting suicidal.

Seriously, what evoloutionary logic is there to have that many vital pack members killed off just to kill something. Also, it's been like what, more than 50 years and with many studies done and many scientists in the field and no one has ever found the corpse of a dead tiger killed by dholes? Doesn't that at least sound a bit fishy to you? Reply

[Wolverine]

(01-27-2019, 04:39 PM)Shadow Wrote: That veterinarian Sanjeev Gupta is mentioned in other articles too and he has facebook profile too, where is mentioned, that he works in Panna tiger reserve.

Here some articles about tigers and Gupta is also mentioned in all of them. Those articles are about tigers and nothing really to do with dholes. I put those there because sometimes we can see sources with names, that can´t be found anywhere. What comes to Sanjeev Gupta, he is there and anyone can send him questions and ask more, who knows he might answer and give good information.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/brunch/en...fsinM.html

https://indianexpress.com/article/india/...na-tigers/

https://newsroom24x7.com/2015/01/04/t3-t...r-reserve/

https://newsroom24x7.com/2017/06/12/pann...na-tigers/

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city...500993.cms

Yes, Rishi could turn to administration of Panna and ask was this true event or not, I'm curious. Reply

[Rishi]

(01-27-2019, 08:29 PM)smedz Wrote:

Quote:

Well here's the difference, those people's observations didn't involve apes acting suicidal.

Seriously, what evoloutionary logic is there to have that many vital pack members killed off just to kill something. Also, it's been like what, more than 50 years and with many studies done and many scientists in the field and no one has   found the corpse of a dead tiger killed by dholes? Doesn't that at least sound a bit fishy to you?

"Suicidal" is the most accurate word one can find to describe the behaviour of those African dogs, don't you think?
Instinct & evolution don't always go by logic...
Adrenaline can have them act like teenager kids doing stunts on motorbikes.

And 50 years ago, dhole were locally extinct from most parts of their present range, even in India. Only this year we have found out their presence in Chitwan (video earlier in thread) & Buxa Tiger Reserve last year (link to news).

(01-27-2019, 01:16 PM)Wolverine Wrote: If you think this info deserve trust I could post it. I don't see any particular reason why should journalists create imaginable stories.

How do i put it? Let's just say, that if you were an Indian saying ^that, i would have thought you were trolling.

A word of advice; never trust anything on Indian media, without double-checking from multiple unrelated sources.
They will twist anything to anything, to get a sensational juicy headline.
That number 5 could be 15... The tiger could have already been sick (it needed medical care later) & they could have just taken shots at him...

Bottomline, if it sounds farfetched then don't take it too seriously. Reply

[smedz]

(01-27-2019, 09:24 PM)Rishi Wrote:

(01-27-2019, 08:29 PM)smedz Wrote:

Quote:

Well here's the difference, those people's observations didn't involve apes acting suicidal.

Seriously, what evoloutionary logic is there to have that many vital pack members killed off just to kill something. Also, it's been like what, more than 50 years and with many studies done and many scientists in the field and no one has   found the corpse of a dead tiger killed by dholes? Doesn't that at least sound a bit fishy to you?

"Suicidal" is the most accurate word one can find to describe the behaviour of those African dogs, don't you think?
Instinct & evolution didn't always go by logic...
Adrenaline can have them act similar to like teenagers doing stunts on motorbikes.

And 50 years ago, dhole were locally extinct from most parts of their present range, even in India. Only this year we have found out their presence in Chitwan (video earlier in thread) & Buxa Tiger Reserve last year (link to news).

(01-27-2019, 01:16 PM)Wolverine Wrote: If you think this info deserve trust I could post it. I don't see any particular reason why should journalists create imaginable stories.

How do i put it? Let's just say, that if you were an Indian saying ^that, i would have thought you were trolling.

A word of advice; never trust ANYTHING on Indian media, without finding from other unrelated sources.
They will twist anything to anything, to get a sensational juicy headline.
That number 5 could be 15... The tiger could have already been sick (it needed medical care later) & they could have just taken shots at him...

Bottomline, if it sounds farfetched then don't take it too seriously.

Actually I'd call that more "defensive" once the lioness grabbed that wild dog. Plus, naturally they would be more aggressive towards a lone lioness since she can't really kill them with a single swipe from her paw, and from what I read in a book from the Smithsonian, a lioness averages 280 pounds, so they have the advantage of a great combined weight and so it isn't really like they'll lose many pack members.
Also, don't compare wild dogs with teenagers because simple put, many teenagers are idiots. BELIEVE ME I go to school with a bunch of them. I did read up on something on dholes in Chitwan, good for them. But I do think the high tiger density of the Terrai (Chitwan is part of it) might make it more difficult for them to recover over there, but nobody said it woud be easy. Reply

[Shadow]

(01-27-2019, 09:24 PM)Rishi Wrote:

(01-27-2019, 08:29 PM)smedz Wrote:

Quote:

Well here's the difference, those people's observations didn't involve apes acting suicidal.

Seriously, what evoloutionary logic is there to have that many vital pack members killed off just to kill something. Also, it's been like what, more than 50 years and with many studies done and many scientists in the field and no one has   found the corpse of a dead tiger killed by dholes? Doesn't that at least sound a bit fishy to you?

"Suicidal" is the most accurate word one can find to describe the behaviour of those African dogs, don't you think?
Instinct & evolution don't always go by logic...
Adrenaline can have them act like teenager kids doing stunts on motorbikes.

And 50 years ago, dhole were locally extinct from most parts of their present range, even in India. Only this year we have found out their presence in Chitwan (video earlier in thread) & Buxa Tiger Reserve last year (link to news).

(01-27-2019, 01:16 PM)Wolverine Wrote: If you think this info deserve trust I could post it. I don't see any particular reason why should journalists create imaginable stories.

How do i put it? Let's just say, that if you were an Indian saying ^that, i would have thought you were trolling.

A word of advice; never trust anything on Indian media, without double-checking from multiple unrelated sources.
They will twist anything to anything, to get a sensational juicy headline.
That number 5 could be 15... The tiger could have already been sick (it needed medical care later) & they could have just taken shots at him...

Bottomline, if it sounds farfetched then don't take it too seriously.

This is an interesting thing actually. Media in many countries is... questionable. Then again there is this question, that what reason there is to twist certain kind of things. Like some cases concerning animals if there is nothing dramatic. Like one injured tiger, is that important enough to start to create fairy tales? Maybe it is, maybe it isn´t. But of course a short article alone needs to be looked at carefully and not possible to make too big conclusions to any direction. More information is needed. Reply

[Shadow]

This is study about dholes in Nepal. Also information about conservation there and problems in that.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication..._Attention Reply

[Jimmy]

Some pics from Chitwan, sometimes normal lucky visitors bumps into them.
Nature Encounter Tour, seen by guide Prakash Basnet, 2017.

*This image is copyright of its original author

WHAPA on twitter (@whapavt) and accompanying map -link:-
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/
first camera trap record of the dhole pack hunting in Chitwan

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

By Caresse Selk, 2015

*This image is copyright of its original author

First record of the Dhole in Barandhabar buffer forest, Chitwan and map
https://www.threatenedtaxa.org/index.php/JoTT/article/view/3533/4312

*This image is copyright of its original author

 

*This image is copyright of its original author

buffer zone area does have some problem, I saw some friendly domestic dogs while I was there, sometimes they can form small packs and might compete with dholes.

*This image is copyright of its original author

And at last I came across this Facebook post about a year ago, Chitwan and Parsa border, not only dhole but cameratrapped image of wolf and striped hyena also.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply

[Shadow]

I have to say, that when looking different sources so far and other things about dholes from today and when thinking about animal behavior overall in different situations, I actually do believe that dholes have earned their reputation in past. Of course more information is needed, but they are very interesting animals and hopefully conservation programs help them to recover with other species. Not an easy task. I looked at satellite images of India and it looked like, that not so much forests there anymore :/ But in other countries nearby somewhat better situation based on those views. Reply

[Wolverine]

If we put aside the question of dhole-tiger relations (I'm a bit tired by this topic) it was noticed by scientists that when pack of dholes hunts in the jungle their movements cause extreme panic among herbivores and sometimes the whole area became empty of animals.
Here is citate from the Swedish naturalist Jan Linblad in his book "The world of the Jungle Book, 1972", the book I have is translated to other European language and I'll retranslate it to English:

"We even saw red wolves. Four of those rear and rearily observed animals suddenly appeared in the front of our eyes... But their appearance created a big panic, langurs started terrible noise, watching the pack, which was running quickly on the dry leaves and all herbivores as fast streams spreaded out on the woody slopes.  Huge space in the front of the dholes got totally empty."

https://litlife.club/br/?b=133908&p=14

*This image is copyright of its original author

Similar description has R.Pockock in Mammalia, vol II, p.178:
"Their depradations will soon clear out large areas of forest of game compelling the pack to go elsewhere, sometimes far afield, for food, and the place could be free for weaks or months, so there is no certanty of finding them in any particcular spott."

https://archive.org/details/PocockMammalia2/page/n177

This remind me even Kipling  :

“The dhole, the dhole of the Dekkan — Red Dog, the Killer! They came north from the south saying the Dekkan was empty and killing out by the way." Reply

[Shadow]

(01-28-2019, 12:16 PM)Wolverine Wrote: If we put aside the question of dhole-tiger relations (I'm a bit tired by this topic) it was noticed by scientists that when pack of dholes hunts in the jungle their movements cause extreme panic among herbivores and sometimes the whole area became empty of animals.
Here is citate from the Swedish naturalist Jan Linblad in his book "The world of the Jungle Book, 1972", the book I have is translated to other European language and I'll retranslate it to English:

"We even saw red wolves. Four of those rear and rearily observed animals suddenly appeared in the front of our eyes... But their appearance created a big panic, langurs started terrible noise, watching the pack, which was running quickly on the dry leaves and all herbivores as fast streams spreaded out on the woody slopes.  Huge space in the front of the dholes got totally empty."

https://litlife.club/br/?b=133908&p=14

*This image is copyright of its original author

Similar description has R.Pockock in Mammalia, vol II, p.178:
"Their depradations will soon clear out large areas of forest of game compelling the pack to go elsewhere, sometimes far afield, for food, and the place could be free for weaks or months, so there is no certanty of finding them in any particcular spott."

https://archive.org/details/PocockMammalia2/page/n177

This remind me even Kipling  :

“The dhole, the dhole of the Dekkan — Red Dog, the Killer! They came north from the south saying the Dekkan was empty and killing out by the way."

Dhole-tiger relationship is interesting, but we have no deadline luckily. When finding some new source or old source not yet noticed, it is nice to see it shared here. 

What comes to dholes overall it is interesting species. Those descriptions about prey animal behavior might have a lot to do with it, that when dhole hunts, prey has pretty slim chances to flee. Dhole seems to be most efficient predator in regions it lives. Reply

[Sanju]

#116

Quote:Shadow

---

Anyway usually big cats flee when there is a pack of big bovines who make counter attacks :) Btw in this we have also one interesting issue. Some people say, that why would dholes make an attack against a tiger and lose pack members. Well... why do tigers time to time make very high risk attacks, even "suicidal"? Why do lions time to time make same kind of moves? This is wrong thread for that discussion, but I just want to use this opportunity to remind a little bit. When people have been discussing about dholes and tigers and about possibility, that there can be rare occasions, when dhole pack even attack a tiger and injure/kill/force it to flee. It has been discussion about rare occasions, not about it, that dholes would do all the time what they wish :)

All animals happen to do in rare occasions things, which look like insane, suicidal, totally insane. Think about porcupine and tiger... is there any other animal actually eating porcupines and by that injuring itself and many times practically committing a suicide? If tigers can do as stupid things, what reason there would be, that dholes couldn´t sometimes push their luck to the limits, especially in situation, where a tiger goes for it to steal a kill...

These matters have so many variables, that it is difficult to put all in one place shortly. But in wildlife word impossible is really a very strong word. Animals do time to time very odd things.

What you said is correct but the "suicidal" attempt is for the purpose of acquiring food and it is the primary and basic need of all organisms followed by perpetuation through reproduction.
So it's worth risk taking. The porcupine case is also similar when tiger is starving...

The interaction between Dhole and Tiger is an inter-specific competition b/w sympatric predators which coexisted because for thousands of years because of this strategy, when tiger threatens Red dog (adults/infants) or vice-versa, the inferior one retreats based on the situation of encounter like out numbering, injury concern etc.., Animals are intelligent. Killing each other in a brawl is very rare incident during extreme conditions like shortage in prey base of that area, so that competition should be reduced by killing juveniles/adults or predation on each other due to hunger etc..,

So, yes they are logistical and do think... and yes Nature is spooky and crazy, unexpectable... Anything is possible. A lioness can adopt a leopard cub/wildebeest calf. Reply

[Shadow]

(01-28-2019, 09:29 PM)Sanju Wrote: #116

Quote:Shadow

---

Anyway usually big cats flee when there is a pack of big bovines who make counter attacks :) Btw in this we have also one interesting issue. Some people say, that why would dholes make an attack against a tiger and lose pack members. Well... why do tigers time to time make very high risk attacks, even "suicidal"? Why do lions time to time make same kind of moves? This is wrong thread for that discussion, but I just want to use this opportunity to remind a little bit. When people have been discussing about dholes and tigers and about possibility, that there can be rare occasions, when dhole pack even attack a tiger and injure/kill/force it to flee. It has been discussion about rare occasions, not about it, that dholes would do all the time what they wish :)

All animals happen to do in rare occasions things, which look like insane, suicidal, totally insane. Think about porcupine and tiger... is there any other animal actually eating porcupines and by that injuring itself and many times practically committing a suicide? If tigers can do as stupid things, what reason there would be, that dholes couldn´t sometimes push their luck to the limits, especially in situation, where a tiger goes for it to steal a kill...

These matters have so many variables, that it is difficult to put all in one place shortly. But in wildlife word impossible is really a very strong word. Animals do time to time very odd things.

What you said is correct but the "suicidal" attempt is for the purpose of acquiring food and it is the primary and basic need of all organisms followed by perpetuation through reproduction.
So it's worth risk taking. The porcupine case is also similar when tiger is starving...

The interaction between Dhole and Tiger is an inter-specific competition b/w sympatric predators which coexisted because for thousands of years because of this strategy, when tiger threatenes dhole (adults/infants) or vice-versa, the inferior one retreats based on the situation of encounter like out numbering, injury concern etc.., Animals are intelligent. Killing each other in a brawl is very rare incident during extreme conditions like shortage in prey base of that area, so that competition should be reduced by killing juveniles/adults or predation on each other due to hunger etc..,

So, yes they are logistical and do think... and yes Nature is spooky and crazy, unexpectable... Anything is possible. A lioness can adopt a leopard cub/wildebeest calf.

Yes, there are differences and similarities. It is hard to say if all tigers eating porcupines have been starving. Odd behavior anyway and it is not easy to say, that for reason A animals can do like this, but not for reason B. Many times situations are combinations of reasons A and B and there can be factor C and D also effecting to some situation. So in rare cases when certain things click together in right place and time, we can see things, which most people keep impossible. There are still many mysteries in wildlife and it is good to remember it, when looking at some issue.

Time to time we get new footage, sometimes confirming what is supposed, sometimes forcing us to believe in "impossible" :) Reply

[smedz]

So from he sounds of it, I think we can all agree that tigers do dominate Dholes even if those events happened, wouldn't you agree? But moving on to another Dhole related topic.

How in the world did Dholes manage to survive the Pleistocene? Back then, Dholes were also found in Europe and North America of all places. These continents were full of killers. Homotherium, Cave Hyenas, Cave Lions, Wolves in Europe, and American Lions, Homotherium, Smilodon, Arctodus, Dire Wolves, etc.
How did these small canids survive all this?

Well let's take a look at Dhole behaviour. We know that Dholes are mostly diurnal hunters, which helps them avoid tigers ( course this doesn't always work) so by hunting during the day, they could avoid some competitors. Another thing is the fact they lie in packs, which helps in dealing with leopards, and this also provides multiple sets of eyes, ears, and noses to detect danger, but being in packs wouldn't be too helpful when animals like he cave hyena and Homotherium where social and Arctodus were just way too big. But Dholes had another answer, habitat selection. By living in forests, they could avoid the fierce competition in the open plains, and since forest big cats are normally solitary, pack structure was and still is helpful. In fact, this method may be why we don't have accounts of Dholes interacting with Asiatic Lions. Dholes lived in the forests, Lions lived more in the grasslands and dry forests. But while this works with felines, it doesn't work with humans. Reply