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Terrestrial Wild Animals
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Carnivorous and Omnivores Animals, Excluding Felids
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Canids (Canidae) & Hyaenids (Hyaenidae)
Dholes (Cuon alpinus)
Dholes (Cuon alpinus)
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Dholes (Cuon alpinus)
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  (01-25-2019, 04:25 PM)Jimmy Wrote: The second map is somewhat misleading, there are no wild buffaloes in Bangladesh and north of Pakistan, also the central Indian region shows huge territory but buffaloes there are too few less than 40, the majority of buffaloes only live in Assam region, just a few some 50 individuals may be living in Thailand probably just handful in Vietnam See 2nd map is of Dhole, it is mentioned there and 1st one is of buffalo in blue. I posted to give an idea of range overlap: Dhole:  *This image is copyright of its original author Blue- water buffalo total range (inc. historic)  *This image is copyright of its original author Any dingo predation on banteng feral pop of Auses??? Present range (green) and possible present range (red) of the Banteng (Bos javanicus)  *This image is copyright of its original author Distribution of the Australian dingo  *This image is copyright of its original author
 (01-25-2019, 10:46 AM)Rishi Wrote: This gaur has been attacked by a pack of wild dogs (Dhole). It obviously got away, but the gaur is left wounded and the dogs hungry. Those are nasty bite marks on hind legs of that gaur. It it clear, that dhole bite will be inconvenient for big animals too. When looking at interaction between tigers it is easy to see, that if dhole bites tiger, there will be irritation, rage and if multiple bites, even fear at some point. Time will tell if one day we will see footage about such case if dhole numbers grow and bigger packs become more common thing than today. My personal opinion is, that such situation is most probable in case, where tiger goes for it to steal dhole kill. Hungry animals in big pack could act in a way, which doesn´t happen in "normal conditions" what comes to level of aggression. (01-25-2019, 05:00 PM)Shadow Wrote:(01-25-2019, 10:46 AM)Rishi Wrote: This gaur has been attacked by a pack of wild dogs (Dhole). It obviously got away, but the gaur is left wounded and the dogs hungry. Dholes in large clans is not possible that easily coz forest type closed environments doesn't favour so unless in exceptional conditions. Even wolves and striped hyena likes to live in small groups not usually more than 3-4. Herbivores like Sambar, Nilgai too live unstably solitary. (01-25-2019, 05:12 PM)Sanju Wrote:(01-25-2019, 05:00 PM)Shadow Wrote:(01-25-2019, 10:46 AM)Rishi Wrote: This gaur has been attacked by a pack of wild dogs (Dhole). It obviously got away, but the gaur is left wounded and the dogs hungry. There are observations about big clans already in these days. Not so often, but there they are. Bigger clan can also hunt in smaller groups and then call for others if needed. Quite interesting little devils these dholes  But it is true, that now there are more smaller clans and environment has some effect to clan size. But if adult dhole population in future for instance doubles, who knows what we can see happening.
 (01-25-2019, 06:29 PM)Panther Wrote:(01-24-2019, 06:07 AM)smedz Wrote: Me personally, I don't believe packs of dholes attack and kill healthy adult tigers, especially since we don't have any physical evidence to support it. However, what if the tigers in those stories were sick or seriously wounded animals, and hunters just changed them to make the encounters sound more epic. Just a thought. Vegeta San, I don't see a point for disagreement as long as nobody here said that pack of dholes has attacked and killed healthy male tigers in their prime. The numerous previous sourses not always point what exactly tigers were attacked - healthy or sick. By the way Karanth does not reject the fact that tigers could be attacked by dholes. Quite interestingly he openly admit his LIMITED experience with dholes saying: "My own LIMITED EXPERIENCE suggests that dholes may not instinctively chase tigers as they do leopards".... Actually Keneth Anderson for sure had much more experience than him. In biology sources are separated on 2 categories: reliable and not reliable. Authors like Jim Corbett and Keneth Anderson has always been categorized by biologists as highly reliable sources of information. If we suspect Jim Corbett and Keneth Anderson as "lyers" is not clear what we do here in this forum.... Reginald Innes Pocock, British zoologist: "The evidence that these dogs may at times attack tigers is too cogent to be set aside."  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author William Blanford, a famous Britich naturalist admits in his monumentall work "Mammalia of Britich India and Ceylon": "Throughout India there is general belief that these wild dogs hunt and kill tigers"  *This image is copyright of its original author Curently the world famous naturalist David Attenborough backed by his BBC scientist team says in the film "Tiger - Spy of the Jungles", minute 43: "Red dogs once formed a large hunting packs. Today even a small family groups are rare sight. A large pack can even kill a tiger."  *This image is copyright of its original author Obviosly as pointed Peter, Rishi and Jimmy the size of the packs in the past was decisive factor. Ok, as was already admitted there are 2 "camps" among current biologists concerning tiger-dhole relations with sometimes mutually contradicting opinions - a "classical-traditional" camp and lets say "Karanth camp". Attenborough obviously ignores Karanth, while the latter ignores Anderson. In this interesting article from Guardian we read following symptomatic words: "Researchers still debate if stories of dholes killing tigers are myth or truth." https://www.theguardian.com/environment/...er-ignored And if researchers are still debating this topic and hardly unify on single opinion its clear that bloggers can hardly reach consensus.  (01-25-2019, 11:46 PM)Wolverine Wrote: Vegeta San (think this was your original name), I don't see a point for disagreement as long as nobody here said that pack of dholes has attacked and killed healthy male tigers in their prime. The numerous previous sourses not always point what exactly tigers were attacked - healthy or sick. By the way Karanth does not reject the fact that tigers could be attacked by dholes. Quite interestingly he openly admit his LIMITED experience with dholes saying: "My own LIMITED EXPERIENCE suggests that dholes may not instinctively chase tigers as they do leopards".... Actually Keneth Anderson for sure had much more experience than him. In biology sources are separated on 2 categories: reliable and not reliable. Authors like Jim Corbett and Keneth Anderson has always been categorized by biologists as highly reliable sources of information. If we suspect Jim Corbett and Keneth Anderson as "lyers" is not clear what we do here in this forum.... Neither of those names are my original. I never denied Kenneth Anderson's case. A large pack of 30-40 dholes (not sure) can injure and kill a adult tiger(of course, by losing some of their pack members), even after a long struggle. But only sick or injured tigers, which dholes get some confidence on chasing or killing it. Just like what V.Mazak said in his observation. And I think the logic of "why dholes do risk their lives against a healthy tiger" by Ullas karanth is meaningful. Canids are by far one of the smartest. Just like all other canids, they need numbers for survival... (01-25-2019, 10:46 AM)Rishi Wrote: This gaur has been attacked by a pack of wild dogs (Dhole). It obviously got away, but the gaur is left wounded and the dogs hungry.Amazing photos. Actually in order to prove that in the past dholes has made a mega-packs we have to find out did in the past herbivores in some parts of India has made a seasonal migrations, not in wet, but in more dry regions as Decan plateau in Central India, a bit like in Africa. Do you have any info about chitals, nilgai or sambars gathering in the past in big herds numbering several thousands of animals and migrating? Such a mega-herds of herbivores for sure would had inforced canid packs to unify in mega-packs, as dholes are not boldly territorial. I think same was the situation in Pleystocene epoch when big game was so abundant that dholes inhabited even North America and Europe. The only book entirely dedicated for dholes is probably "Whistling hunters" by M.Fox:  *This image is copyright of its original author Interesting fact about dholes and tigers is that dholes are diurnal, hunt predominantly during the day while tigers are mainly nocturnal. So when dholes hunt tiger usually nap and when tiger hunts dholes usually nap.... This is obviously interesting way created by nature to avoid prime competence between the two species.
@Wolverine, I've read your posts about this topic, and to be honest, I'm with Guate and pckts on this one. Nothing you've said has convinced me at all, let me explain.
You can see videos of male Lions chasing off large groups of Spotted Hyenas, and if that happens, then why couldn't a tiger, especially a big male in his prime, do the exact same thing to a Dhole pack? And what benefits would there be to have a several pack members be killed in a fight just to kill a tiger? Especially when dholes aren't exactly the biggest canids out there. As for pack size, I believe Karanth on this, as he has spent years in that area, and while I was browsing on here once, I saw something Guate posted on page 34 on this thread, and it said that surprisingly, meat consumption decreases per capita (for each Dhole) when the size of the pack increases. The only way I'll ever believe these tales is if I ever see a film, photograph, or an actually verified account. Not eyewitness testimony, the weakest form of evidence. (01-25-2019, 11:46 PM)Wolverine Wrote:(01-25-2019, 06:29 PM)Panther Wrote:(01-24-2019, 06:07 AM)smedz Wrote: Me personally, I don't believe packs of dholes attack and kill healthy adult tigers, especially since we don't have any physical evidence to support it. However, what if the tigers in those stories were sick or seriously wounded animals, and hunters just changed them to make the encounters sound more epic. Just a thought. Okay, first of all, I read that article myself, and I didn't see that line anywhere. As for the video, it said they formed packs of over 100... 100!!. That isn't realistic at all, how would they be even able to support that many members!? It makes no evoloutionary sense to have groups of that size because quite frankly, that's too many to support.
@Panther is here...
(01-26-2019, 03:15 AM)smedz Wrote: ...then why couldn't a tiger, especially a big male in his prime, do the exact same thing to a Dhole pack? And what benefits would there be to have a several pack members be killed in a fight just to kill a tiger? You misunderstood. Nobody said that. And regarding the motivation to take such risks, these are world's most successful pack hunters with strong instincts. They'll do it out of peer-pressure. Those African wild dogs didn't have much to gain from attacking the lioness. But they actually ignored her cub, came back for her...& that's after one of them almost got killed. (BTW the way the pack jumped in when she caught the one is exactly same with one of Anderson's descriptions, except that one was killed but this one lives. I'll share if i find it online.) Quote:Me personally, I don't believe packs of dholes attack and kill healthy adult tigers, especially since we don't have any physical evidence to support it... That's actually a reasonable thing to do for now. A year ago if someone told that AWDs could dominate a healthy adult lioness like that, then too there would be people sharing old stale screenshots & videos of lions chasing away small packs. Now we have something atleast. Better to talk again about this in 2029. (01-26-2019, 07:49 AM)smedz Wrote: Besides, a lioness doesn't have enough power to kill a hyena or I doubt a wild dog.. Yes they do... Even leopards do. In the meantime, don't use hyenas as reference for behaviour of wild dogs. They are different animals, hardwired completely differently, to react to the same situation in different way. (01-24-2019, 08:15 PM)Rishi Wrote: I once came across an image of dholes try to take down an adult, bull gaur. But the damned thing is cropped!!! Found it!... https://woodcrawler.blogspot.com/2009/06...-gaur.html (Excerpted text & pics by blogger Rajesh Radhakrishnan) Of Dholes & a Gaur May 2009, Bandipur It was close to 6 PM...on the left of the road were 8 dhole; pups & adults. Further on was a lone dog, perhaps that alpha male, being filmed from another vehicle.  *This image is copyright of its original author Suddenly the pups disappeared into the dense lantana. At first it appeared that it was our presence that disturbed the pack. Then it became apparent that the reason for the disturbance was not us but a huge male gaur.  *This image is copyright of its original author At first as the bull advanced the dogs held their ground, even making mock attacks.  *This image is copyright of its original author The bull wasn't deterred. It was intent on crossing over despite the snapping dogs.  *This image is copyright of its original author He just charged through the pack, scattering the dogs before him.  *This image is copyright of its original author Once he had waded through the pack and reached the jeep track he halted as if to show that he had not run in fear.  *This image is copyright of its original author After a minute he crossed the track towards the dense lantana bordering the road.  *This image is copyright of its original author Just before he disappeared into the bush he halted for a moment with his rump towards us, exhibiting a wound just above his tail. (Personal note: Looks like a tiger attack.)  *This image is copyright of its original author (01-26-2019, 06:57 PM)Rishi Wrote:(01-24-2019, 08:15 PM)Rishi Wrote: I once came across an image of dholes try to take down an adult, bull gaur. But the damned thing is cropped!!! Nice one and I agree, that that wound doesn´t look like to be caused by dholes. I wonder if there is a dead tiger somewhere paying the price for causing that wound.... when ambush doesn´t work out tiger needs to be quick to flee when that big bull turns around... (01-26-2019, 07:02 PM)Shadow Wrote: Nice one and I agree, that that wound doesn´t look like to be caused by dholes. I wonder if there is a dead tiger somewhere paying the price for causing that wound.... when ambush doesn´t work out tiger needs to be quick to flee when that big bull turns around... Dead tiger? You think if ambush fail, tiger is gonna die? Killing tiger is hardly that simple, for you? |
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