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Canids (Canidae) & Hyaenids (Hyaenidae)
Dholes (Cuon alpinus)
Dholes (Cuon alpinus)
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Dholes (Cuon alpinus)
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R.I. Pocock, Fauna of British India: Mammals volume 2, looks like to be from 1941. Here is mentioned shortly about dholes and tigers on page 162. There is mentioned R. C. Morris as one source (?).
https://archive.org/stream/PocockMammali...9/mode/2up Here is another link to more recent study about how people think about dholes in Thailand. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10...1400700413
This study would be interesting to read, but here is only part of it.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/24097214?se...b_contents 
So, @Jimmy what actually is going on in this video. Its clear that dholes don't "hunt" the tiger. But nevertheless its clear its going something amazing. In seconds 42-49 is clearly visible how 2 dogs approach the tiger from behind. Feeling this, tiger turn around sharply face to face with the dogs and they run back. But if tiger didn't turn around probably the dholes would bite him on hind legs... This a classical case of harassment and intimidation, while the purpose of this behavior is not very clear.
In order to understand what is going on we have to read some text from the book "NATURAL HISTORY OF THE MAMALIA OF INDIA AND CEYLON" (1877) of the famous British naturalist and hunter Robert Sterndale:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author So, as we see @GuateGojira is quite right that in that video dholes DRIVE AWAY the tiger. Obviously such a behavior to drive a big animal is typical for the dholes. These smallish devilish dogs are capable to push the tiger out of some area they don't want the tiger to be by harassing and intimidating the giant cat. Its same as you are walking on the street and few small dogs are constantly following closely your petals so you have constantly to turn around and check are these creatures trying to bite you or not. Does dholes create in the tiger impression they want to bite him from behind or they really want to bite him is another question. The reason dholes want to drive a tiger out of some area could be that they have pups in this area or some other not very clear reasons, in same way as write Sterndale they could displace tiger or leopard by constant harassment. Robert Sterndale is kind of godfather of Rudyard Kipling. Exactly from his books and more especially from the book "SEONEE, OR CAMP LIFE ON THE SATPURA RANGE; A TALE OF INDIAN ADVENTURE" Kypling got his knowledge of the Indian jungles. The term "Seonee cave" where Mawgli find his refuge with wolf family is taken from Sterndals book and many other details. Kipling, the genious with pipe and spectacles:  *This image is copyright of its original author @peter , if you want to read the book Seonee, it can be find here in PDF: https://archive.org/details/cu31924079586685/page/n53 "Natural history of Mammalia of India and Ceylon" from Sterndale could be found here: https://archive.org/details/naturalhisto...r/page/240  (01-20-2019, 10:56 AM)paul cooper Wrote: @Wolverine MODERATOR NOTE: Post edited. Karanth's observation is a bit similar to Donald Trump on global warming; when last winter was unusually cold in NY he concluded that there is no global warming. This reminds me Karanth. Karanth decided that if he didn't personally witness a tiger attacked by dholes in the front of his eyes than such attacks have never happened, dismissing all previous numerous sources.  (01-20-2019, 10:56 AM)paul cooper Wrote: @Wolverine Wolverine has a nose for good info, is able in Russian and contributed quite a lot in the tiger department. He's one of our best posters. This is the second time you tried to dismiss him. As you ignored the implicit warning you got after the first attempt, you qualified for another break. One more is a permanent ban.  (01-20-2019, 10:56 AM)paul cooper Wrote: @Wolverine Regarding the "read karanth's observations" point... (01-15-2019, 11:13 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:(01-15-2019, 07:27 AM)Wolverine Wrote: In same time old paintings from British India showing dhole packs killing tigers are probably highly exaggerated, there are no fresh scientific proves for such a cases: Karanth's observation states that pack of 8-12 were the norm expanding upto 20 animals, during his time. Packs that size can act very bold, but never go beyond harassing tigers. A persecuted species at the doors of extinction were not ideal candidates for refuting older observations, most of which deals with much larger packs. Karanth will be Karanth, but that doesn't mean his every word must be readily accepted. Especially when he literally wonders (2nd image in Guate's ^post) if those old tales of 30+ dhole-packs could be inaccurate counting, but within decades of that statement we now do have pack that size in Central & South India. Packs of 20-25 are getting quite common... (01-20-2019, 10:50 AM)Wolverine Wrote: So, @Jimmy what actually is going on in this video. Its clear that dholes don't "hunt" the tiger. But nevertheless its clear its going something amazing. In seconds 42-49 is clearly visible how 2 dogs approach the tiger from behind. Feeling this, tiger turn around sharply face to face with the dogs and they run back. But if tiger didn't turn around probably the dholes would bite him on hind legs... This a classical case of harassment and intimidation, while the purpose of this behavior is not very clear. That book of Sterndale was interesting finding and it was nice to get a chance to read how he wrote. Not only to see his name in some reference list. I found it interesting when he mentioned, that locals in all parts of India were telling in same way about dholes and leopards/tigers. Also how he describes dhole behavior with tigers fits to what we can see in recordings today, they are cautious, but also clearly even today they do irritate tigers, so word harass is justified (imo). (01-20-2019, 10:50 AM)Wolverine Wrote: So, @Jimmy what actually is going on in this video. Its clear that dholes don't "hunt" the tiger. But nevertheless its clear its going something amazing. In seconds 42-49 is clearly visible how 2 dogs approach the tiger from behind. Feeling this, tiger turn around sharply face to face with the dogs and they run back. But if tiger didn't turn around probably the dholes would bite him on hind legs... This a classical case of harassment and intimidation, while the purpose of this behavior is not very clear. Btw that one painting about tiger and dholes attacking it... it is from 1807? Do you have any idea, that who have painted it or any additional information about it? That painting where are a lot of dholes and some are painted to bite backside of tiger. If that is really from 1807 it is also quite interesting and indicating, that dholes have had that reputation a long time, over two centuries at least.
Here is site, where I noticed something, which raised question(s).
https://greenglobaltravel.com/endangered-species-spotlight-dhole-a-k-a-indian-wild-dog/ When looking at number 22 of that list, there is said: "That being said, clans will sometimes interact favorably with other clans, which could make individual groups appear larger at times. But it’s a pretty rare occurrence. " That reminds what Anderson wrote about situation with tiger and dholes, where he described that possible case, where tigers and dholes maybe actually fought. Of course it is known, that dholes call other members of their own pack. But I wonder if there are cases, in which that claim would be based on, I haven´t seen that kind of behavior mentioned elsewhere, at least I can´t recall right now. Or maybe that was based to what Anderson wrote (?). (01-20-2019, 09:25 PM)ShereKhan Wrote:(01-20-2019, 01:12 PM)peter Wrote:(01-20-2019, 10:56 AM)paul cooper Wrote: @Wolverine Wolverine's post have been edited & Paul Cooper's deleted, you can't see the original ones. They know what they did... (01-21-2019, 01:19 PM)paul cooper Wrote: "This is the second time you tried to dismiss him." It was deleted because it was inappropriate, just like yours was & anyone else's would be, nothing mysterious about it. Also, he presented the reasoning for his skepticism on the prominent field biologist's views. Anyone can disagree with anyone's standpoint, but to simply dismiss it like you did would need counterpoints.
01-21-2019, 04:55 PM
( This post was last modified: 01-21-2019, 08:29 PM by Shadow
Edit Reason: Some typos corrected.
)
What comes to discussions in different forums, there is nothing bad to disagree if explaining why. Nothing wrong to have some edge in criticism. But if it goes over the point, where main focus is in that, that how much people can put cursing, name calling and insults to one message, it has nothing to do with animals anymore. When looking briefly some forums, where there is no moderation at all it is easy to appreciate a place, where at least at some point focus is returned to animals. Not insulting competition and endless yes-no arguing. If there is no agreement, at some point it is better to say: Ok, we disagree in this and so be it. For some issues there are not as easy answers and explanation than for instance if asked answer to 1+1.
Karanth is one person who has studied tigers and also observed dholes, there is no reason to doubt his observations. But when reading some old books, like that latest founding of Wolverine, text there is actually well written and difficult to find there something sounding total nonsense. It is one thing to exaggerate sometimes, another to write total fairy tales. From Sterndale text I personally haven´t found something looking like exaggerations or fairy tales. He writes just like it could be expected from a man/woman, who actually has been there observing wild animals in their own environment. I don´t see any reason to keep Karanth as only reliable source what comes to tigers and dholes, there are many other good researchers too. Karanth can´t be ignored, but different people can give for him different kind of value. Some bigger some smaller. Karanth is one piece in puzzle for me for instance. Not the puzzle. Or should I say, his conclusion isn´t the goal for me so, that I would try to fit all pieces backing up what Karanth alone is saying. I like to see different pieces first together and then see what it looks like. (01-24-2019, 06:07 AM)smedz Wrote: Me personally, I don't believe packs of dholes attack and kill healthy adult tigers, especially since we don't have any physical evidence to support it. However, what if the tigers in those stories were sick or seriously wounded animals, and hunters just changed them to make the encounters sound more epic. Just a thought. Quite possible that it happened, from time to time. But we are not talking about an encounter or two. But dholes had (& still continue to do so after so many years) quite the reputation! That'd take a lot of exaggeration, by a lot of people, over a lot of time... Not to mention these kind of incidents were already rare. This thread has whatever info currently available & more is welcome. Because s last century had the species drastically diminished to the point of holding on by a thread, we don't really know what to expect or what could have happened hundred years ago. Atleast they're doing well now. Best we have today is this sighting... |
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