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Canids (Canidae) & Hyaenids (Hyaenidae)
Dholes (Cuon alpinus)
Dholes (Cuon alpinus)
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Dholes (Cuon alpinus)
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 (01-29-2019, 06:34 AM)smedz Wrote: So from he sounds of it, I think we can all agree that tigers do dominate Dholes even if those events happened, wouldn't you agree? But moving on to another Dhole related topic. Yes, I agree completely. The reason for big clan structure (more than wolf like more social and less territorial) even in "forest type of eco regions" is to avoid competitive exclusion i.e.., aiding depredation on them by these bigger carnivores or predators like tigers, leopards, wolves, lions and cheetah (past), Black bears etc.., I use clan because... Quote:"Pack always hunts together and waits until every member is ready for the hunt" where as "Clan refers to the meaning that the original group can be sub divided to hunt separately on their won or venture on their own for a short period but can be join at any point of time to the source group. Hence, Dhole-Clan; AWD, Wolf- Pack. Although not as fast as jackals and foxes, they can chase their prey for many hours (pursuit predators). So there is a problem why you can't see social carnivores "more" in forests than Plains ??? coz they couldn't hunt in a co-ordinative way... "The Dhole" over came this problem in the wild dog style (AWD too).. i.e.., integrating communication between them during hunts with vocalizations or some extraordinary vocal calls such as - it can whistle, Howling, Bark, sequel, whine, squeak, staccato, Gramble, scream, mew- and even cluck like a chicken, and high-frequency and biphonic calls in dog-like canids can be produced without specific anatomical adaptations of the sound-producing structures. It can pee while doing a handstand on its front two legs Other predators like tiger tend to enhance their size as a defensive strategy in forest environments competition and bigger prey adaptation...  (01-29-2019, 09:29 AM)Sanju Wrote:Thanks for the agreement, and is it also for tiger domination over the Dhole? But anyways, you're right with the growth in tiger size when bigger prey and more competition is around. In our time, Dholes do avoid tigers for the reason that a tiger can kill many pack members, allowing tigers to frequently catch and eat Dholes. Which is likely why Dholes chose the day to hunt. But I do think Dholes have quite the defense stratedgy when they do cross paths with a tiger. There is one account from a study done years ago where a tiger approached a Dhole pack, but the Dholes saw the tiger and the tiger left. That makes me believe the Dholes main defense is for one to spot a tiger stalking them, sound the alarm, the Dholes look at the tiger, and the tiger, knowing that he hunt is now over, moves on.(01-29-2019, 06:34 AM)smedz Wrote: So from he sounds of it, I think we can all agree that tigers do dominate Dholes even if those events happened, wouldn't you agree? But moving on to another Dhole related topic. (01-30-2019, 01:58 AM)smedz Wrote: is it also for tiger domination over the Dhole?No, not for domination over Dhole. Most of the encounters end up with one of them retreating and very little leads to fights and Primary threat to a Dhole death can be a fight with other Dhole clan/a leopard/a tiger... No, Tiger don't catch for food and eat Dhole unless its starving in most cases. They may kill when small clan are caught in an ambush if they don't escape but not necessarily eat them. I personally saw in many documentaries tiger killing and leaving that dhole to degrade one of the individual is "The Boss" Dhole from bandipur and anamalai reserve of "Cani's clan". Yes, Dholes have a defense strategy based on the clan size. It is the most important attribute for the dholes i.e.., outnumbering. No, Tiger don't hunt dhole, hunting is for killing and eating. This is to eliminate potential sympatric competitors for resources. and Tigers hunt mostly ungulates/herbivores, if not it'll go to bears and boars like omnivores in the menu. Tiger eating strict carnivores and other tigers is extreme rarely and depends dramatically on the situation of environment. (01-30-2019, 09:05 AM)Sanju Wrote:To be honest I was going with what a biologist told me. Speaking of pack sizes, I suggest you go to physical 34 of the tiger extinction thread, GuateGojira posted some good info on pack sizes. Plus, the scientific evidence we currently have on their interactions seems to be suggesting tigers being dominant over the Dhole.(01-30-2019, 01:58 AM)smedz Wrote: is it also for tiger domination over the Dhole?No, not for domination over Dhole. (01-30-2019, 09:46 AM)smedz Wrote:(01-30-2019, 09:05 AM)Sanju Wrote:To be honest I was going with what a biologist told me. Speaking of pack sizes, I suggest you go to physical 34 of the tiger extinction thread, GuateGojira posted some good info on pack sizes. Plus, the scientific evidence we currently have on their interactions seems to be suggesting tigers being dominant over the Dhole.(01-30-2019, 01:58 AM)smedz Wrote: is it also for tiger domination over the Dhole?No, not for domination over Dhole. I said Tiger don't eat dhole but there is a clear dominance of Tiger over dhole or any other predator and it is evident. Apex predators clearly has dominance over other predators in maintaining food chain equilibrium and other consecutive trophic levels or niches. The primary culprit any tracker suspect over Dhole death is a tiger. I think you are misunderstanding what I'm posting. Convincing behaviour of young Dholes towards the Alpha male !! Picture from @wandererover Challenging The Bull! Dholes, aka Asiatic Wild Dogs are apex predators. Smaller mammals but that doesn't stop them from challenging a prey of any size. The strength of the dholes is its pack; each individual has a role to play & they communicate among them so well in making that hunt, a successful one. A sub-adult, can still call him a pup though; was trying to hone his skills by challenging the bull who walked in to a small pond to quench his thirst. The adults of the dhole pack were seldom interested as they were content with their previous fill. Picture from @ramakrishnan_aiyaswamy From Nagarahole Reserve. Shared from @mithunhphotography - When a pack of 14 Wild Dogs with pups with them are near a water hole, you can be rest assured of some crazy action for the next 30 minutes. They love to play it out in the water especially after a meal which helps them cool off in the heat. It is also a time where the pups hone their skills in the water which will help them while trapping and hunting big game in these water bodies which the Wild Dogs are famous for. monsoon. @vinayskumar1 Picture from @shamakabirahmed - These fearless predators are highly social and usually hunt in packs. The dholes in this picture were in a very playful mood. Nagarahole NP, kabini. Picture from @sharath_venkyy - The ALPHA male GUARDING the pack Picture from @walking.the.wild.side - Spent an entire safari shooting wild dogs in Kabini. It’s amazing how every specie of animal has it’s own way of surviving in the jungle. At any given point of time there was one alpha who was just sitting a little away from the pack and keeping an eye out for predators. Makes you realise the similarities between animals and humans. Someone is always sacrificing for someone else to enjoy. Picture from @bharathshreyasphotography - The most efficient hunter in the jungle! Indian Wild dog or Dhole | Karnataka. EXIF: Canon 5D Mark IV + Canon 500mm f4 IS II ISO 320 | f 4 | 1/320 second Picture from @prakash_sara Picture from @arvindrthy - Taking off. They might look small, fragile or maybe a little less intimidating than a cat but mind you Dholes are rugged, agile and are more successful than the tiger or leopard when it comes to hunting. When your meal is bigger than YOU but still you want all for it for the survival !! By @clicknframe Picture from @pruthvi04 - on the prowl Picture from @kirtiranjannayak - The perching Dog World Yoga Day Special!! DID YOU KNOW? It is said that the repetitive whistles of the dhole are so distinctive that individuals animals can be easily identified by their calls. Indian Wild dog or Dhole | Karnataka. EXIF: Canon 5D Mark IV + Canon 500mm f4 IS II ISO 320 | f 4 | 1/320 second photographer:- @bharathshreyasphotography . The stare ! It was too much for the pack of wild dogs to hunt this beast. The drama went on for hours but the big bug cared the least, size matters at times. Shot under extreme low light conditions. Picture from @prithivishekara When a pack of Asiatic wild dog are out on the backwaters... absolute chaos ensues... this bull elephant tried to show them who was boss but ended up vanishing in the dense forest as they went on and tormented the next lot of elephant! Picture from @russ_wildlife The LAW of NATURE!! A Page from Junglebook !! Picture from @keerthanabalaji Picture courtesy @naturein_focus Shot at the forests of South India Picture from @pavansxposure - “Green Carpet” Close encounter between dholes and Indian gaur. Surprisingly the gaur left with no worries inspite of 15 to 20 pack of wild dogs next to it. Picture from @prithivishekara In the jungle, who is the bravest of them all? Is it the regal tiger, nonchalant in his manner, or the ever adaptive leopard, forever fearless in his ever changing world? Neither, for the Indian Dhole (wild dog), unperturbed in the midst of chaos, was the true king. These are the most intelligent and ruthless animals the jungle has to offer and on a warm afternoon, we watched a pack of dholes torment a herd of elephants. This image to me portrays their unruffled nature best as their focus lay on a herd of deer rather than the raging giants. On assignment for @natgeowild. Picture from @shaazjung The chase between Dhole & sambar deer !! Picture from @xylophile_23 "The whistling hunters" Dhole / Indian Wild Dog. Picture from @shujath.mohammed When love and care is all you need from your family!! . Picture from @rantelpereira Battle of Kabini As we sat in the vehicle with the covers wrapped around us on a monsoon morning we heard the troop of Bonnet Macaques around us going hay wire. As we set out a little further to investigate the reason for their nervousness we saw an elephant herd of 10 females and 2 calves huddled down the road and something walking towards them at a distance on the game road. It was a pack of 13 Wild Dogs on a hunt who were scouring the jungle for prey. The Elephant herd had 2 tiny calves and because the pack size was quite big ,they were potential prey. Since I had seen this particular pack hunting on quite a few occasions, I knew their fearless nature will surely entice them to atleast give it a try for sure. The first thing they would try and do was to create chaos and try to separate the Calves from the adults. It was a tense moment for all of us. Once the herd realised that the Dogs were around they formed an impenetrable wall by surrounding both the calves. While this was happening, one member of the herd (seen in the video) decided to take on the pack herself so that this could distract them and hence buy time for the herd to move away to safety. So she charged at them and started to kick the wet mud at each one of the Wild Dogs. She tried her best to get them, and during this time I was hoping against hope that she does not get close to them, as that would mean death for sure. Thankfully the pack was very nimble footed and managed to avoid the fury of the four ton pachyderm. Realistically speaking there was very less chance of a hunt happening with quite a few adults there to protect them. If only the mother with the calf had been separated from the herd then there was a good possibility. Having said that , in the wild you never know when the tables can turn. Video from @mithunhphotography Wild dogs from the mystical land !! Did you know ? Dholes usually weigh between 22 and 44 pounds and can reach 4.6 feet in length. Males are larger than females. Color of the fur depends on the habitat (it provides camouflage). Dholes can be reddish brown, grey or beige in color. Inner part of the ears and chest are white. Tail is darker in color. Unlike other members of the family of dogs, dholes have unique number of teeth. Their muzzle is thickset and equipped with only 40 teeth (other dogs have 42 teeth). Dholes have large, round ears and excellent sense of hearing. Other than that, they use sense of smell to find the prey. Dholes are famous for their communication skills. They produce variety of sounds: growls, whistles, screams and clucks to communicate with each other. Dholes are carnivores (meat-eaters). Their diet mainly consists of various species of deer, wild boars, goats and wild cattle. They rarely hunt smaller animals such as rabbits, lizards and insects. Dholes live in a group, called pack, composed of 5 to 12 members. Males are much more numerous. Certain groups may have only one female. Sometimes, dholes gather in large groups composed of up to 40 members. Picture from @giricavale - A pair of Wild Dogs also known as Dholes engage in some play in the Nagarhole Tiger Reserve. If you look closely you can see a healed wound across the body of the lower dhole, probably the remains of a snare, rope or fence that it was stuck in. Picture From @angadachappaphotography The fawn and his mother Sambar fought hard to keeps the dogs at bay. The young sambar survived the attack..!!! Picture from @jayanth_sharma Dhole Mating - Nagarahole Tiger Reserve . Picture from @wandererover When the Eyes tell a story !! A Bite to the neck is enough for small prey though Dhole don't go for neck nite!!! Picture from @arun_s_k It’s brutal but it’s nature and its a game that never ends ...Wilddogs of Nagarhole !!! Picture from @sheshadri.vasan The Show Stopper of the day is the Dhole from Nagarhole National Park !! Picture from @riturajrahi The Dhole (Indian Wild dogs) clan Live in small groups usually between 5 to 12 members but they can sometimes number up to 20. Picture from @lifeline_wildlife
01-30-2019, 06:44 PM
( This post was last modified: 01-30-2019, 08:16 PM by Shadow
Edit Reason: "would have killed dholes" corrected to "would have killed tigers"
)
I have been reading the book: Tiger! The Story of the Indian Tiger (published 1977) from Kailash Sankhala. He also mention dholes.
He tells how badly wounded, practically disemboweled chital ran to resting area and very near to people there and after it 2 dholes chasing it stops near the fence. Then he writes how another same kind of situation happened, when Sankhala had a camp in Periyar National Park. Pack of 18 dholes was chasing a sambar deer, which crossed a river and closed up camping place full of people while dholes waited keeping a distance about 100 meters or so. He say, that in Bandipur chitals show by their behaviour bigger fear for dholes than for humans by coming to fenced resting places in the woods on night time. That on the whole resting place can be seen eyes of chitals shining here and there in the dark even though there is noise from cars and people and lights here and there. And in the morning they leave place and go back in the woods. He say, that he don´t know cases where a chital would have ran from humans towards dholes. He also say, that there is no other predator like dhole (in India), what comes to teamwork, relentlessness and brutality in hunting. Even their appearance causes panic and when they have chosen target, prey is doomed. Sankhala describes one hunting which he managed to see, where a pack of 21 dholes hunted 2 chital calves. He then saw how older calf managed to flee while younger fled to water, where dholes got it. He also writes about the way dholes hunt and how they often chase prey into the water for "operation drowning" while one dhole follows it and other wait on the shores. Just what can be seen from recent video footages. Then he writes how dhole has ecologically it´s own position and value. He say, that it doesn´t fear any other predator, not even the tiger while being only competitor for it and he tells that when looking 10 most typical prey animals of tiger, dhole hunts 6 from those. He writes, that always when packs of dholes appeared to fields of Kanha, Sankhala noticed, that his chances to see tigers decreased and he had to wait for weeks until dholes left the area. He say, that even though tiger is more than equal with dholes, it for some reason leave the "field of action" for them when dholes appear. He writes, that reason would be, that tigers want to avoid that harm, what dholes cause by disturbing with long pursuits all prey animals on area. Their often happening hunting and terror what they spread on area reduces tigers chances for making successful ambush attacks on prey. Then he mention, that time to time dholes even make tiger go away from a kill and occasionally even chase it to the tree. He also mention, that in some occasions those would have killed tigers, in that he mention paintings ( no number, using term some) and some recent observations (good to remember, that book was published 1977). He writes like dholes are very beneficial, what comes to ecological balance by eliminating overpopulations of some prey animals. While only thing eliminating overpopulation of dholes have been insufficient number of prey leading to starvation and/or epidemics. I don´t have quotes or pictures, because I have been reading finnish translation of that book. But Kailas Sankhala is easy to google and check who he is and books, that he have written. Some might have that book too, so easy to read from there same. I tried to translate as good as I could :) It was nice to notice, that Sankhala had made also some observations about dholes and their impact in different ways. One more piece to this puzzle, what comes to dhole reputation and what they have been seen to be doing and what might be seen in future. Hopefully there would soon be more studies about dholes. The more reading about them, the more interesting animal it is :) Observations of Sankhala are fascinating to read. (01-30-2019, 09:58 AM)Sanju Wrote:Sorry, my bad, don't you just hate it when you misunderstand someone?(01-30-2019, 09:46 AM)smedz Wrote:(01-30-2019, 09:05 AM)Sanju Wrote:To be honest I was going with what a biologist told me. Speaking of pack sizes, I suggest you go to physical 34 of the tiger extinction thread, GuateGojira posted some good info on pack sizes. Plus, the scientific evidence we currently have on their interactions seems to be suggesting tigers being dominant over the Dhole.(01-30-2019, 01:58 AM)smedz Wrote: is it also for tiger domination over the Dhole?No, not for domination over Dhole.  (01-30-2019, 06:44 PM)Shadow Wrote: He also say, that there is no other predator like dhole (in India), what comes to teamwork, relentlessness and brutality in hunting. Even their appearance causes panic and when they have chosen target, prey is doomed. Sankhala describes one hunting which he managed to see, where a pack of 21 dholes hunted 2 chital calves. He then saw how older calf managed to flee while younger fled to water, where dholes got it. He also writes about the way dholes hunt and how they often chase prey into the water for "operation drowning" while one dhole follows it and other wait on the shores. Just what can be seen from recent video footages. Shadow, thank's for letting us know about the valuable observations of Indian biologist Kailash Sannkhala. (01-31-2019, 03:23 AM)Wolverine Wrote:(01-30-2019, 06:44 PM)Shadow Wrote: He also say, that there is no other predator like dhole (in India), what comes to teamwork, relentlessness and brutality in hunting. Even their appearance causes panic and when they have chosen target, prey is doomed. Sankhala describes one hunting which he managed to see, where a pack of 21 dholes hunted 2 chital calves. He then saw how older calf managed to flee while younger fled to water, where dholes got it. He also writes about the way dholes hunt and how they often chase prey into the water for "operation drowning" while one dhole follows it and other wait on the shores. Just what can be seen from recent video footages. Biologist sounds even understatement in a way when mentioning Sankhala. I mean if there would be Hall of Fame what comes to work done for tiger conservation, he should be there maybe on number 1 spot. But to avoid irrelevant debate, let´s say on top 5, when looking at his life and the fact, that he lead Project Tiger in India when it was set up originally. Without men like him we might have quite little what to see today. He is one of those, who´s life and career I value a lot. Maybe not as famous as Dian Fossey, but actually he should be! Pity that I have finnish translation of that book, but if someone have it in english, he/she could put here some screenshots, my posting is just quick summary. But maybe all relevant is there. His personal experiences during his times on field were really fascinating to read. I mean for instance, that prey animals seek safety among humans is quite something.
I was just thinking about this, but besides the tiger, I do think there is another predator that can pose a huge threat to the Dhole: The Crocodile. I mean think about it, imagine a pack of Dholes drinking at a lake and then SNAP! A crock grabs one and goes back into the water, nothing the pack and do about that. Also, if they're crossing a crock infested river, one could easily be grabbed by a croc again, nothing the pack can do about that, and in the old days, Dholes might have come into contact with Saltwater Crocodiles, which could and still do grow to huge sizes and let's face it, there's not much they could do to a 20 ft croc, so I do believe Crocs are also feared by Dholes.
Dholes attacking gaur calf. Camera trap footage from Kalakkad mundathurai tiger reserve.
 *This image is copyright of its original author
(01-31-2019, 09:33 PM)smedz Wrote: I was just thinking about this, but besides the tiger, I do think there is another predator that can pose a huge threat to the Dhole: The Crocodile. I mean think about it, imagine a pack of Dholes drinking at a lake and then SNAP! A crock grabs one and goes back into the water, nothing the pack and do about that. Also, if they're crossing a crock infested river, one could easily be grabbed by a croc again, nothing the pack can do about that, and in the old days, Dholes might have come into contact with Saltwater Crocodiles, which could and still do grow to huge sizes and let's face it, there's not much they could do to a 20 ft croc, so I do believe Crocs are also feared by Dholes. Yes, it is often so, that some animal, let´s say A can be a threat for animals B and C. Then we have animal D, which can be afraid of animal C, but not A. Even though C is afraid of A. And that is one thing, which makes wildlife so interesting. All animals have their stonger and weaker parts. There is for instance one footage about dholes attacking a gaur calf in youtube. Only mother gaur is doing something and trying to protect that calf. Other members of pack stay away, one other adult gaur comes closer, but do nothing. If that would have been a tiger, most probably there would have been some bulls chasing it away because it was daytime, but for some reason with dholes gaurs were so passive. That was reasonable sized pack, difficult to be sure, but something like 12-15 at least I think. (01-31-2019, 10:40 PM)Shadow Wrote:Well the reason the other gaurs didn't help is because Dholes aren't a threat to the adults since they're just way to big, unlike with a tiger which is a big threat to even bull gaurs.(01-31-2019, 09:33 PM)smedz Wrote: I was just thinking about this, but besides the tiger, I do think there is another predator that can pose a huge threat to the Dhole: The Crocodile. I mean think about it, imagine a pack of Dholes drinking at a lake and then SNAP! A crock grabs one and goes back into the water, nothing the pack and do about that. Also, if they're crossing a crock infested river, one could easily be grabbed by a croc again, nothing the pack can do about that, and in the old days, Dholes might have come into contact with Saltwater Crocodiles, which could and still do grow to huge sizes and let's face it, there's not much they could do to a 20 ft croc, so I do believe Crocs are also feared by Dholes. |
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