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Carnivorous and Omnivores Animals, Excluding Felids
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Canids (Canidae) & Hyaenids (Hyaenidae)
Dholes (Cuon alpinus)
Dholes (Cuon alpinus)
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Dholes (Cuon alpinus)
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 (02-09-2019, 08:24 PM)Shadow Wrote: Here is another video from interaction between elephant and dholes. Again dholes keep no noise! Just dodging and moving around in silence, while elephant is nervous/upset, whatever word anyone wants to use. Good find Shadow. This video confirms that shmedz's favorite kids writer Kipling was again right saying "that even Hathi the elephant give way to dholes"...  
 (02-10-2019, 06:04 AM)Wolverine Wrote:(02-09-2019, 08:24 PM)Shadow Wrote: Here is another video from interaction between elephant and dholes. Again dholes keep no noise! Just dodging and moving around in silence, while elephant is nervous/upset, whatever word anyone wants to use. Here is one more, where elephant feels uncomfortable with dholes nearby, easy to see how upset it is here. It is quite clear, that old observations can be confirmed in many cases even though what comes to some things, more information is needed. It is really interesting to notice how strongly elephants do react to dhole presence. Also here dholes are dodging when needed, but otherwise quite nonchalant ans silent.
Btw, is there somewhere more about this case, more footage maybe? This looks interesting. There is a pack with puppies, still it is said, that pack turns back to face the tiger after retreating in the first place. Pack doesn´t look like to be a big one, still they act like that. This might be one recording, where there is something similar as in older observations, even though situation then changes again.
But when thinking it, that tiger stops and dholes could just continue and take distance, they choose to go back and look closer that tiger, it is interesting. This situation with uncut footage from the camera filming tiger would be so interesting to see. And yes, this has been shared here before, but I put it here again just because it is easier to do so and ask, if someone knows if there is more footage about this case somewhere :) This is after all quite different kind of situation compared to other dhole-tiger videos, which I have seen.  (02-11-2019, 05:21 AM)Shadow Wrote:You guys are reaching here IMO.(02-10-2019, 06:04 AM)Wolverine Wrote:(02-09-2019, 08:24 PM)Shadow Wrote: Here is another video from interaction between elephant and dholes. Again dholes keep no noise! Just dodging and moving around in silence, while elephant is nervous/upset, whatever word anyone wants to use. An Elephant being agitated is one thing, but to say this is proof of an Elephant giving way to Dholes is wrong. The Elephant is treating Dholes like it does any other animal it doesn't want in it's presence, it's chasing them off. In regards to Dholes dictating Tiger presence, that has never been the case in the past 20 years in the Reserves with any real Tourist Traffic and Tiger numbers. Honestly, that's probably a conservative guess, I'd imagine that you couldn't find proof of this for longer then that. I know it's mentioned here and there from a few people, but these cases are interpretive and sometimes people like to embellish or see things in a "more exciting" way than it may of actually occurred. The fact remains that a Dhole has never contributed to an Adult Tiger death that we know of in the past 20 years. The reason I use the past 20 years as a barometer is because that's the timeline when Cameras became handheld and footage began to be easier to share. I'm sure a large pack can pester and even hurt a Tigress or young Tiger but it's something that is obviously extremely rare. What's not rare is Tigers hunting Dhole, running them off or dominating them in general. I appreciate all of these accounts and the hardwork that was done by these trailblazers but where Wildlife Observation is today has far surpassed anything seen in modern history. We follow individual cats from their birth till death and most of us do it from behind a screen. Then on top of that, we have open forums that can confirm dates, lineage, travel patterns and history, conflicts, etc. You can now ask questions to guides who have more knowledge and experience than anyone you can name. They literally live every day with these creatures, most of them grew up right next to them and continued to show others what these animals are like every day for 6-8 months out of the year, I think we should really appreciate the accessibility we now have to these animals. Anyone who's been involved since the old AVA days can confirm that we've come a long way since since those L VS T debates based off of the same 3 studies and Everland clips right? Think about the demand we put on the "burden of proof" now a days? Imagine any of these accounts became public on FB or IG now, what would the reaction be? We'd want video clips, images, time of year, location and zone, other eye witness confirmations, etc. Even then we'd still argue about what we actually saw. So in closing, my opinion is Tigers dominate Dholes, no questions asked. Can a dhole pack run off an unsure or satiated Tiger, Yes I think they can. Can a Dhole pack attack and Kill an adult healthy Tiger ready to defend at any cost , No I don't think so. (02-11-2019, 10:39 PM)Pckts Wrote:(02-11-2019, 05:21 AM)Shadow Wrote:You guys are reaching here IMO.(02-10-2019, 06:04 AM)Wolverine Wrote:(02-09-2019, 08:24 PM)Shadow Wrote: Here is another video from interaction between elephant and dholes. Again dholes keep no noise! Just dodging and moving around in silence, while elephant is nervous/upset, whatever word anyone wants to use. What comes to it, what I am trying to find out, you and some others all the time seem not to understand the point. It is not about it, that dholes would dominate tigers. I don´t know how many times it should be said until it could be finally understood :) It is about it, that what can be found what comes to dhole reputation. Which is, that it can cause a lot of fear in prey animals, it can make even elephants to feel uncomfortable. And then most "gray area" is, that in some cases even make tigers back off and in most extreme cases might even kill tigers sometimes. I understand, that tiger is for many favorite animal and even mentioning, that it can be sometimes in trouble is causing a lot of emotional feedback. Understandable. But for me and I think that to some others it is time to time very interesting to look closer things, which are controversial and unclear. There are many opinions, but when shaking things a little bit, time to time something new can be also found, which no-one have noticed or haven´t even wanted to look closer. What comes to dholes, I had never looked them so closely like now, so this has been very interesting. To see opinions, but more important to have many people to search and share sources, photos and video footage. For instance it was a little surprise for me to see how uncomfortable even elephants can be when dholes are there nearby. Not giving way, but obviously nervous for some reason. Dholes then again are quite comfortable, of course dodging when needed, but no fear there. Then again that one footage where other gaurs just stand aside and leaving mother gaur alone to defend calf. What comes to tigers, of course we can see, that tigers are in normal conditions having upper hand. BUT then again, dholes aren´t just running away, not even when some of them is killed, they still in some cases run around tiger, they are cautious, but no panic there. Then this last video, which I shared and is familiar to many. It is really interesting, when looking at it closer, if host there is describing as it really happens, it is only video, where can be seen possible challenge for tiger. But that footage is edited and that´s pity. But anyway we have many opinions, hopefully also more cases and facts can be found, when digging in. Most important still is to find and try to gather all known information for everyone to check themselves. it is always nice to find something and see, that there is someone else, who saw something for the first time :) But maybe it is time to go to library soon, from internet it is quite difficult to find some books. Reaching, for sure, that´s what curiosity to learn makes :)
Elephants are animals like any other, sometimes they are scared or uncomfortable by a lot of different things, there is no dominance there or some new respect given, it's just some animals are more cautious than others.
Are we willing to say that Mice, Squirrels and domestic dogs cause Elephant to panic and thus should be categorized as the terror of the forest? "BUT then again, dholes aren´t just running away, not even when some of them is killed, they still in some cases run around tiger, they are cautious, but no panic there. " You and I are interpreting these situations very differently, the dholes are running away, they are running for their lives, abandoning watering holes, losing kills etc. Just because they escape death and come back to call is no different than a dog harassing a horse, it's the nature of the animal. They are pesters, they will harass animals they have no chance in tackling until they get board or to weigh their options, it's not some sort of dhole thing it's just an animal thing. You can see the same scenarios with their African cousins This should is a good gauge for Tiger/Dhole Encounters that you're speaking about This mother only stayed to take the beating to save her cub and even so never once was her life in danger while injuring a member of the pack and having her cub survive. This isn't a small pack and these are dogs larger than dholes and yet if the Lioness didn't have a vulnerable cub to protect she could of just walked off or became the aggressor and chased down the Dogs more intently. But since her operative was to keep the pack focused on her and not leave her cub, she stays there to draw their attention. (02-12-2019, 12:32 AM)Pckts Wrote: Elephants are animals like any other, sometimes they are scared or uncomfortable by a lot of different things, there is no dominance there or some new respect given, it's just some animals are more cautious than others. Yes, elephants can be afraid of many things :) And it is true, that people can watch same footage and make same conclusions and then again different ones. Some features are common for some species and some then to another. For instance usually when male lion kills a hyena, others retreat and keep distance. We have now only one video, where tiger had killed a dhole, there dholes didn´t take distance same way and let tiger be, but instead harassed it. Imo at least  But yes, there are always some things, which many animals do, then some which are common for some species. I guess, that it is one thing keeping things interesting, trying to understand animal behavior.  (01-16-2019, 10:33 PM)Shadow Wrote: Here is described dhole pack of 28 members from 2010. They managed to get in one photo 17 members of that pack. I have found also a photo where is 20 dholes, but those are in dhole thread. I put this here because it actually looks like, that in this matter old stories seem to be not exaggerated. At least pack of 30 dholes looks like to be realistic. How many are adults, how many are pups? The same Dr Karanth said that when the pups are about the leave, the packs can be large, but is just because of that fact. Normal packs are not as large. (01-17-2019, 12:43 AM)Shadow Wrote: One news clip from India. Btw here is also mentioned, that there are observations, that in areas, where dholes thrive, tiger numbers can drop. Actually quite interesting because I remember reading about same phenomena once. The only source that says that tigers drop when dholes up is Sankhala. So this report is the result of using a single source and a BAD one. Again, no hard evidence. (01-17-2019, 01:43 AM)Shadow Wrote: Bigger, more experienced pack of dholes and more hungry could be one reason to challenge even a tiger when meeting on some kill/carcass. There can be some point in numbers, where "balance" is giving advance to one and then another. It is interesting interaction to learn more. I actually just discussed shortly wih one person who told how he saw 2010 in Kanha national park how a pack of dholes chase away a tiger, which walked right in the middle of that pack. But he didn´t catch it on video, pity :/ But maybe something can be found when digging in more. And this is how legends starts..... I have saw in TV many people that saw Bigfoot or UFO's, but like your source they don't catch it in video. Let's believe in them too! (02-12-2019, 02:54 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:(01-17-2019, 01:43 AM)Shadow Wrote: Bigger, more experienced pack of dholes and more hungry could be one reason to challenge even a tiger when meeting on some kill/carcass. There can be some point in numbers, where "balance" is giving advance to one and then another. It is interesting interaction to learn more. I actually just discussed shortly wih one person who told how he saw 2010 in Kanha national park how a pack of dholes chase away a tiger, which walked right in the middle of that pack. But he didn´t catch it on video, pity :/ But maybe something can be found when digging in more. Yes, there are many hypotheses, of course in discussions those are mentioned too. But in animal behavior there are many times some open questions and the more rare occasion something is, more difficult it can be to know what is the reason. But if someone can´t separate opinions from facts, it is then of course a place where legends start :) I try to write so, that it would be obvious, when I am writing about how I think and what are my own guesses and when I quote for someone else and give source in that case. Point is, that collecting as many sources as possible and then looking big picture, you know that. Of course it would be sometimes better to ignore many writing while still searching information like in this dhole case. But then again it is fun to have some discussion and debate too. Sometimes in that way can be noticed something what otherwise would have been missed. Then again danger is, that it developes to something like this, where starts argument about single details while still focus should be on studying subject :) Well, starts to look like, that most information what can be found here or from internet is here and time to go to library to look for some books. Quite hard to compare observations if not reading original texts :) (01-25-2019, 11:46 PM)Wolverine Wrote: William Blanford, a famous Britich naturalist admits in his monumentall work "Mammalia of Britich India and Ceylon":Blanford to not believed in those accounts:  *This image is copyright of its original author The BBC use litterature and altough mosthly is reliable, remember that they also still quote that Siberian tigers can grow up to 4 meters long. Not everithing what TV says it correct. (01-28-2019, 12:16 PM)Wolverine Wrote: If we put aside the question of dhole-tiger relations (I'm a bit tired by this topic) it was noticed by scientists that when pack of dholes hunts in the jungle their movements cause extreme panic among herbivores and sometimes the whole area became empty of animals. That is just Mythology. Check this from Richard Perry (1965) in the book "The World of the Tiger": "It has often been claimed that the mere presence of ta pack of dogs clears all game out of a jungle, as the precense of a tiger or tigers never does, and Fletcher stated that he had frequently seen sambar in his preserve emigrating because of the presence of dogs. But one suspects this to be the exception rather than the rule, beacuse deer are terrotorially conservative, except during drought, and difficult to drive from their traditional feeding grounds, and most packs of dogs are continually on the move - a few weeks hunting in one jungle, and they are on to the next. Indeed, according to Champion, dogs are most numerous in those jungles containing most deer, and there is a record of one pack, vaying in numbers from twelve to twenty dogs, lining permanently for several years in one forest track, which was not only the best in the district for deer and pig, but also held a number of tigers and leopards. Nor are deer entirely without protection from dogs. Heavy jungle, with tall grass that cuts the dog's pad, and also prohibits sight hunting, provides a refuge for chital, and in such a jungle deer may be seen grazing every day, even though dos are persisntently hunting in the track. Moreover deer are, as has already been noted, able to distinguish between a full-fed predator and one that is hunitng. A herd of sambar hinds will feed close by a pack of indling dogs, and the presence of another pack, trotting along a fire-line, will be ignored alike by a sounder of pigs on one side of teh fire-line and by some sambar on the other." page 146 - 147. All this, and the fact that dholes will starve to death if there is no prey, put in question all those old myths regarding the dhole. The more that I investigate the dholes, the more I see that the old stories are just cultural perceptions of this animal, that although bold, is no different from other canids like wolves or lycaons. (02-03-2019, 03:27 AM)Shadow Wrote: Here is one case about dholes and tigers, from the book Wild Cats of the World, not sure if already mentined. Book is from Mel and Fiona Sunquist and original source seems to be W. Connell. One piece in this dhole tiger puzzle. Maybe one day all sources so far should be gathered to one posting to see how it looks like. This is from "Wild Cats of the World" of Dr Sunquist and his wife. This account and that of Anderson seems to be the only accounts with complete description of the events and the killing, but apart from Anderson, none says that sex and age of the tiger involve. (02-03-2019, 05:01 AM)ShereKhan Wrote: So out of 22 dogs, 12 were killed and even more were seriously injured? Exactly, and this is what Dr Karanth doubt, this account make no sence. An species with this form of living will not survive to long, will got extinct for lack of specimens. |
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