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Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences
Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences
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Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences
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The massive Male Jaguar Joker compared to a Male and Female Lion
Credit to @Balam  *This image is copyright of its original author I'll add her quotes as I agree with what is stated "Joker’s measurements in regards to chest circumference, neck girth, head girth, and body length all put him in the same ballpark of an extremely large lioness or tigress, or a modest-to-average size male lion or tiger. His chest circumference of 128 cm during his second capture is particularly mind-blowing as it surpasses that of many adult male lions. Attached is an image of a chart of weights and chest circumference for lions in multiple populations of Africa gathered by G. L. Smut from his 1980 study: Comparative growth of wild male and female lions (Panthera led). Comment image As can be seen, during his second capture, Joker matched the chest circumference of the male lion in the ALPRU table at 128 cm and surpassed the chest circumference of the maximum recorded measurements for male lions in Kalahari and East Africa from Smuts’ samples. Granted, East Africa is a huge geographical area and the sample size from Smuts is rather small at only 8, undoubtedly there must be male lions with much larger measurements, particularly around the Serengeti and most notably the Ngorongoro crater. Craig Packer, a leading American biologist who studies and participated in captures of lions in the Ngorongoro crater, provided through personal communication the range of chest circumference for lions in that area as being 127-134 cm. This would mean that Joker would at least slightly surpass the circumference of the smallest lion in Packer’s sample while being greatly outsized by the largest specimen. An extremely impressive feat. Joker’s body length of 180 cm, with a total length of 255 cm, surpasses the body length of the adult lioness in the ALPRU data just slightly and is short of the 187 cm of the male lion; however, these are not apples to apples comparisons, as mentioned on the table, the lions from the ALPRU dataset were measured from the tip of the incisors as opposed from the tip of the nose as in the case of Joker. This means that the lions had more cm added to their length by including the incisors. In this case, the gap between Joker and the male lion in the table is reduced, though it would be impossible to know by how much. I believe around 3 cm should in theory be reasonable to deduct from the male lion’s measurement. Lastly, we have two very interesting measurements, neck and head girth, the latter of which is an area in which jaguars excel particularly well proportionally compared to other felids thanks to their macrocephalic broad heads. To assess how well Joker compared with lions (I was unable to find this sort of data for tigers compiled in one study), for this we can use the AfriCat Hobatere Lion Research Project (AHLRP) from 2015 which took the measurements of lions from Namibia. Generally, this study is controversial because of the way in which the body length and shoulder heights of the captured lions were taken. It was over the curves of the body following every single line, which ended up greatly exaggerating their size. For this reason, ignore the measurements provided for these lions with the exception of the head and neck girth which are more reliably taken and can tentatively be used for the purpose of this comparison. The AfriCat data of body measurements and the data of sex of each individual can be seen here. Based on AfriCat’s data, Joker had a head circumference greater than that of the adult male lion Tara (69 vs 78 cm) but lesser than that of the other lions in the study, both male and female, with the largest measurement from a lion being a whooping 94 cm. In terms of neck girth, Joker outsizes all the lionesses and matches the girth of the male lions Muna and Mansa, as well as surpassing the neck girth of all other male lions. We rely on the top neck circumference girth because that is the area of the body where the measurements of jaguars are taken as well. The shoulder height provided for Joker on his last capture by the personal communication with the Onçafari biologist was 80 cm. However, we do not know if this value took into consideration the extended paw. In any case, this would be the one area of the body where Joker would fall greatly short of adult tigers and lions, as jaguars are morphologically much lower to the ground proportionally than all other big cats. We will never know for sure how much Joker weighed at maximum and the only data we can rely on was the partial weight of 140 kg registered on the scale from his last capture. With that being said, his outstanding measurements point towards him being a Pleistocene-sized jaguar and easily the largest modern jaguar captured to date (Lopez’s measurements notwithstanding)."  
@
Ok, I am not sure this is the best place, but here is a subspecies comparison. Sri Lankan Leopards are dominant predators, so we see them attempting to hunt adult Sambar Deer. Sri Lankan Leopard attempts to hunt a large Sambar stag. Unfortunately, the Sambar spots the Leopard, and runs off. A good kill could have taken place if the Leopard went undetected. Indian Leopard attempts to hunt a Sambar fawn, only for the young deer to jump into a pond. The Leopard actually jumps into the pond and swims for a while at 0:20, and gets out at 0:47 Leopard filmed chasing a Sambar Stag in Sri Lanka. The chase seems to stop mostly due to the Leopard becoming cautious of the tourists.  *This image is copyright of its original author https://www.youtube.com/shorts/xtHouHRKqgI Leopard filmed chasing a Sambar fawn in India. The Leopard stops once the fawn jumps into the water.  *This image is copyright of its original author https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Dc2aSCVQuCY
Comparing 287kg Lion to a 288kg Tiger
Lions measurements are a 2nd hand source but apparently reliable so I'll take them at that. I Believe this Lion was from E. Africa so most likely Free Ranging Probably safe to assume measurements "over the curves" 287kg ID: Mkr-143 ("The one who eats Bufallo) Length: 228 cm Chest: 146 cm Height: 111 cm 288kg Tiger from N. India (Tiger Male 1) Length: 220 cm Chest: 152 cm Height: 130 cm  *This image is copyright of its original author Branders 600lb *272kg* (est) male measured in a straight line Body Length: 220.98 cm (7ft 3 inch.) Total Length: 302.26 cm (9ft 11 inch.) Shoulderheight: 109.22 cm (3ft 7 inch.) Bodygirth: 149.86 cm (4ft 11 inch.) Forearmgirth: 53.34 cm (21 inches) Weight≈ 272 kg ( 600 Pounds) I'm guessing the 288kg Male was also taken over the curves, so that being said Branders male is probably the longest of the 3, followed by the Lion then Tiger Male 1. Tiger Male 1 has the largest Chest, followed by Branders male then Mkr-143 Lion. Shoulder height will be hardest to determine my guess is Branders could be closer to Tiger Male 1 than most think due to it's protocols but that being said, the order would be Tiger Male 1, Brander then Mkr-143. So all things being considered, when claims of 270kg cats are presented a quick comparison can be used and generally speaking the male must be over 200cm in body length *straight line* The chest must be over 145 cm And the height must be around 110 cms over the curves. But this one is probably the most difficult since some will measure to the heel pad or base of the foot as well as to the top of the shoulder or middle of the spine. So a quick guide- 272kg Cat should meet the following measurements 200 cm+ HBL straight line or 215 cm+ over the curves 145 cm+ Chest Girth 110 cm+ Height over the curves Body condition such of full/empty will play a role so these measurements will be more useful imo. 
Melanistic male jaguar (Bagheera), standard female jaguar (Aphrodite), lioness (Achinea), and male tiger (Timur) at the Podmoskovnye Safari Park, outside of Moscow, Russia. All these sub-adults are just under 1 year of age. It will be great to see the big three growing side-by-side in the same enclosure.
 (03-29-2023, 09:47 PM)Pckts Wrote: I Believe this Lion was from E. Africa so most likely Free Ranging Hi Pckts. May you provide the source of this information, please? (11-16-2023, 04:05 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:(03-29-2023, 09:47 PM)Pckts Wrote: I Believe this Lion was from E. Africa so most likely Free Ranging Not my info, no source mentioned and second hand so take with a grain of salt. I never could find any info on the ID tags used.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
(11-16-2023, 04:17 AM)Pckts Wrote: Not my info, no source mentioned and second hand so take with a grain of salt. I never could find any info on the ID tags used. Thank you for sharing it. I will try to search more information about it. 
@Hello
Extracted from the #762 at "Big herbivors" in order not to stay off-topic. @Spalea as you can see the leopard has a huge neck in relation to its body. Even the biggest and bulkiest jaguars don't have neck this thick.  *This image is copyright of its original author Don't you see that the leopard's head is turned in on itself ? Thus the neck seems to be thicker ... Tell me the day when you will see a leopard "built" like this jaguar:  *This image is copyright of its original author
@Spalea Even if the head wasn't turned around it wouldn't make any big difference. There are many male leopards who have thicker necks, especially thicker on dorsal area (top region between back of the head and shoulders.) Even the jaguar in the above post doesn't have much thickness in dorsal part of the neck to leopards .
 *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Even this gracile leopard has thick neck, especially dorsal region which bulky jaguars don't have.  *This image is copyright of its original author Yes, I agree that leopards are not hefty than jaguars. I probably won't see a leopard built like a jaguar.
@Hello
" Even if the head wasn't turned around it wouldn't make any big difference. There are many male leopards who have thicker necks, especially thicker on dorsal area (top region between back of the head and shoulders.) Even the jaguar in the above post doesn't have much thickness in dorsal part of the neck to leopards . " All felines have a very powerful neck. It's easy to understand why, after having killed a prey they often have to carry ou drag it... Especially leopards because interactions they could have with lions and hyenas in Africa, tigers in India, they need to carry their prey upto a tree in order to eat it quietly. Even so you cannot say that a jaguar has a thin neck. I don't know if you have seen these posts: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-compari...#pid140930 at #357 and #358 From PCKTS in the #358: " So that being said, these Jags show a consistent girth advantage to the Leopard, the only category of girth the Leopard wins is the neck but we know the dewlap isn’t muscle and that number generally is inflated if we’re comparing actual muscle mass. " As you can read "dewlaps isn't muscle" and as concerns the photos you showed dewlaps were particularly big.
I said dorsal/ top part of the animal's neck of side view image. It's clearly thicker and more convex. Side view images was to show how pronounced and muscular their neck was on the top region, which in my opinion is more muscular and thicker than jaguar's
(12-27-2023, 02:06 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Hello On top of that, the Leopard that was being outmatched was a taxidermy, it wasn't even a live specimen so the numbers were exaggerated. There's nothing to even debate, Jaguars have the largest skull to body ratio, with a massive head comes massive neck muscles to support that head. @Hello cherry picking images in flattering positions doesn't mean much, we see this all the time with when people try and exaggerate or downgrade certain cats. Just to give you an idea, that Leopard that he's showing is only a 56kg Leopard. "The second male, M25, was initially captured on the 2/6/05 and a VHF radio-collar placed on him. We recaptured him on the 5/7/05 and the VHF collar was exchanged for a GPS collar. Judging from tooth wear, he is older than M26 (estimated between four and six years), although he only weighed one kilogram more. We have downloaded 134 locations (Figure 1) from the collar and he is using a home range of approximately 57km2 (Figure 2). This area is predominantly made up of the mountainous regions in the south and the west of the park, though he has crossed out of the Conservancy on at least one occasion into a neighbouring Zulu community." Do we really think this is a "Skinny neck?"  *This image is copyright of its original author With regards to actual neck girth measurements, The average Neck Girth for Pantanal Females was 21.44'' and Males 24.93'' with the largest males neck girth at 27'' for Comparison you have a Gir male Leopard that weighed 72kgs and had a Neck girth of 21.2'' Zimbabwe male "M1" at 62kgs with a neck girth of 21.6'' Another M1 Male at 63kgs with a neck girth of 18.8'' 64kg Male from Golestan, Iran with a neck girth of 21.2'' As you can see, similar weights and neck ranges but the difference being female jaguars don't benefit from the exaggeration of the neck dewlap. And here is a perfect example of that dewlap This is the same male, the legendary Vin Diesel Male  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author It's pretty easy to notice the difference when the dewlap is hidden compared to the exaggeration when it's not.
Of course jaguars have thick neck, but for their huge bodies and head, it isn't impressive and doesn't appear that thick to me. Their dorsal part isn't that thick and relatively less thick. Do jaguars have thin necks? I think I shouldn't have said thin but should've said less thick relatively.
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