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Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences
Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences
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Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences
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 (01-08-2023, 01:32 AM)Styx38 Wrote:Quote:88kg's comes from Kambiz Baradarani. That was the largest actually presented to him with verification. This male was poisoned as well, so no excuse for being old or wounded, etc. Correct about the 90kg+ Leopards. With regards to the Congo Basin Leopards, there’s actually 5 recorded.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author I’ll be fair, 3 of the adult Males are unhealthy and caught in snares, so realistically we can say they're 70kg males. That’s an increase 60% which is probably too generous but the point being these males were not anything special. Albeit I’m sure you will have larger males that can get to the 80-90kg ever so rarely like we see throughout Africa.  (01-06-2023, 11:04 PM)Matias Wrote: 115 kg seems exaggerated to us,I already told the whole story about this particular leopard in my latest post of this thread at post #525 The vet confirmed that the cat was weighed at 115 kg when found beside a carcass, so it was gorged, that's why it weighed that much. After a Vic in the box of high stress the cat refused to eat for days, and the weight dropped at around 105 kgs the first time and they day of the euthanasia, always after not eating for other hours, it weighed 98 kg . This makes Alborz the largest leopard on record ever, beating the previous Namibian record of 96 kg by rhoughly 4 kgs. With a range of 98-105 kg when not eating for days in stress in the box, Alborz was by consequence c. 100 kg empty or maybe some grams more. A giant of its own kind verified by a vet makes this a scientific record, can't believe we finally got a 100 kg leopard that it's not a hunting record. Long live the beast Alborz , never will be missed for surviving several gunshots from barbaric poachers. To note that the says "the leopard had been shot several times with the most recent one being in the spinal cord" indicating the leopard was already shot before and had already survived. Built different (01-08-2023, 10:03 PM)AndresVida Wrote:Which Vet?(01-06-2023, 11:04 PM)Matias Wrote: 115 kg seems exaggerated to us,I already told the whole story about this particular leopard in my latest post of this thread at post #525 The only confirmation of weight was “a little under 100kg during euthanasia.” Then stated at 95kg Do you have another with anyone involved with the actual weighing during capture? (01-08-2023, 10:06 PM)I’m AndresVida Wrote:(01-08-2023, 01:32 AM)Styx38 Wrote: @Pckts So does that mean the 90+ kg Leopards in Iran are unverified specimensAlborz is fully verified, so no. The question was in regards to the 3 stated over 90kg. The 115kg is mentioned but questioned and not used. The others have no confirmation or specimen details. (01-08-2023, 10:14 PM)Pckts Wrote: Which Vet?well I'm surprised you're asking me his name since you were the one who actually gave me his name first to contact him via Instagram, btw it's Imam Memarian. But now I'm typing quickly as hell and I do not want to rewrite everything so I want you to look at my post #525 where it explains all + I recorded with mobizen the screen of my phone while listening to the voice messages Imam Memarian sent me about saying everything about that leopard. Now I gtg but will reply to anything later. (01-08-2023, 10:18 PM)AndresVida Wrote:(01-08-2023, 10:14 PM)Pckts Wrote: Which Vet?well I'm surprised you're asking me his name since you were the one who actually gave me his name first to contact him via Instagram, btw it's Imam Memarian. Well then I know the 115kg weight isn’t confirmed to be measured by him. In fact he wasn’t even there during capture  *This image is copyright of its original author That was from his FB. Only the measurement during Euthanasia which he stated to be a little under 100kg. Even that wasn’t confirmed and seemed to be estimated, at least according his messages.  *This image is copyright of its original author I would still like the paper on measurements that he said his colleague may have but it never was presented.  (01-08-2023, 06:16 PM)Pckts Wrote:(01-08-2023, 01:32 AM)Styx38 Wrote:Quote:88kg's comes from Kambiz Baradarani. That was the largest actually presented to him with verification. This male was poisoned as well, so no excuse for being old or wounded, etc. Fair enough. South Africa, Botswana and Namibia do hav their share of small male Leopards, medium male Leopards and large male Leopards. (01-08-2023, 10:28 PM)Pckts Wrote: Well then I know the 115kg weight isn’t confirmed to be measured by him.I don't know who weighed the cat and when Imam was present and when he wasn't, he didn't specify that to me but let's assume that he was involved in the weighing when the cat was taken captive in the box . Imam specifically said the cat was weighed twice when it was in captivity and both those times were after it stopped eating and fell into a condition of stress so high that it started even eating its own limbs (shocking, as someone that works in WWF reserve since a year, I never saw an animal falling in a condition of stress nearly as comparable) . The first weigh, which comes after the 115 kg one, is around 105 kg (presumably empty) and then, the day of the euthanasia, it weighed about 98 kgs. Can you provide the measurements? I know you asked but has anyone replied lately? and do you know how many times the cat was shot precisely? I remember there was a quote saying the precise number but some just say "several times" 
@Pckts
Quote:The weight of the cat was actually obtained and all of them were presented from the authors of the table. If you want them to add every capture to the table if a cat is captured more than once and weighed, that's your prerogative, not theirs. It takes nothing away from the accuracy of the table. Doesn't it make the slighest sense that it's better to use the lower weight? It is likely that the animal has no or few stomach content at this point. But for the jaguar table, several males have their higher weight given. Here are some remarks I have: -For one; why take the highest figure of male Matheus (134kg) instead of his most recent one (118kg)? Also the lowest figure will likely lean towards an empty cat unless visible wounds are there in that case it's due to bad health condition. -Same story with male Tupã; they went with the 123kg figure despite him being captured as a mature male at 107kg. He was a mature male so how is he going to gain 16kg of muscles as a mature male? Impossible, it's just stomach content. -Again the same story, this time with male Brutos; he gained 10kg weight in a few months. That must be due to stomach content but there he is in the table with his heaviest figure. -Next is Lopez, the outlier or record male; his figure dates from 2008, I don't know what they see as old and modern, but the rest of the figures are fairly recent making Lopez' figure kinda old. -Lastly is the dubious claim of Pantanal jaguars being bigger today than in the past. The table contradicts itself; the heaviest male Lopez isn't from the present or recent past yet he's still the biggest one in the table. Also the average weight changed over the course of months; they out of nowhere averaged 115kg (based on this selfmade table), then 111kg and now it's at 108kg. Moving on to the Pantanal jaguaresses; they barely got bigger compared to this table. I thought they've grown bigger? Or does it only apply to males for some reason? Quote:And like I said, "it's possible" since of course you have 3 weights used in the range of 90-95kg yet you only have one mention of a maximum of 91kgs then the only other was a 95kg corrected from 115kg. For the weight table, 91kg was the maximum given but for the weight chart, 115kg is the maximum so in either case the 95kg isn't used. It's merely mentioned in a Facebook post plus that was the circa weight at the time of euthanasia anyway. 115kg was his weight at the time of his capture, confirmed by the veterinarian. That's the story of this male. Quote:On top of that, you only even have 1 actual cat mentioned in scientific study or communication that has reached 90kg+. There is no other cat that's reached 90kg so again that is far more questionable. You forgot the 1977 study where a 90kg male is mentioned.  *This image is copyright of its original author It's because of this weight that rumours of very large males in West Asia existed in the past. Quote:And there is absolutely nothing in the photos that shows him to be emaciated. His paw was removed because of injury from the snare. Have you seen the all the photos available? This is him during his capture, clearly full:  *This image is copyright of its original author This is him around the time of euthanasia:  *This image is copyright of its original author Do you still think his "body condition was fine" and that he was bloated? I say he was emaciated in the end. Quote:It absolutely isn't a standard procedure. In fact weighing is a luxury rarely obtained. When a wild animal is brought in, it is because they can partly conclude if it's healthy based on their body weight. It's not when they have to operate in the wild. For Pantanal jaguars this seems possible every time though. Quote:You are fine with them because after you continuously tried to discredit them you got proven wrong. Uh, I was talking about the 115kg figure for the Persian leopard. Read my remarks above regarding your selfmade table. Quote:Like it's been stated, we have 0 confirmation of weighing at 115kg only at 95kg. We have 0 confirmation of body dimensions even though they were said to exist. You want to use the excuse of language barrier issues yet want to assume him stating he was there for "a" weighing to be the 115kg over the 95kg or the 90kg? How's the 95kg figure? It's from a Facebook post whereas the 115kg figure is mentioned in the study, included in the weight chart and confirmed by the veterinarian? Quote:And like you've been shown time and time again, it doesn't matter which leopard population you use the Female Pantanal jaguar reaches said weights more frequently. Reread what I stated. Northern Iranian males will best or surpass them. The frequency in % is already close despite the sample which included 40-50kg males from Central and South Iran. This is called probability calculation. Quote:Again? We literally already did this in Carnivora. We don't have any info except the excluded male yet you know for a fact that most of the weights are from northern Iranian males? Can you provide evidence to back up this claim? Also how can they average 70kg in the North when their weight range is 70-88kg? Doesn't that mean that the smallest males weigh around 70kg already? Quote:No, I mean no male over 90kg with verification from the vet or capturing officer. He sent me all the males the 5 males from Tandoureh National park, the two largest males they received plus the 3 other males from C and S. On top of the confirmation of the 21 males averaging 70kg being from the N. Tandoureh National Park isn't regarded as northern Iran but northeastern Iran near Turkmenistan. Northern Iran consists of the provinces Gilan, Mazandaran en Golestan and the environment is forest habitat (Hyrcanian forests). Not saying they don't grow big but the absolute biggest are from northern Iran specifically. Lowest weight from this region is 64kg and was a young male. Quote:Once again, don't twist what he actually said into your skewed language of it. I was the one speaking to him, I asked the questions and I know how it was used. He said a prime male would weigh around 70kg. His table shows an average of 65kg give or take 3kg and he mentions older being 50kg. If his estimation is based on males including those from Tandoureh National Park, then yes it's possible is stays at only 70kg. But that's merging populations. See above what is meant with northern Iranian leopards. Yes that small sample indicates mature males are larger than the average weight. Quote:You can't be serious. There are weights where just a figure was given after someone asked for it when they saw an Instagram photo of a captured jaguar. Including the word "around" which meant they had to ask again after a long time to get actual confirmation. You absolutely do not have all these 'requirements' of yours. If so give me the measurements of the outlier Lopez. Or Joker's weight and not the 'at least X' figure. Quote:What a surprise, why would you use verified data over your personal opinion when you're proven wrong? So sticking with scientific data is wrong and relying on a selfmade table is the better choice? Quote:Hence why I don't state it as fact but make sure to use valid points to back said opinion. "Spew nonsense" while you're the one bringing up excuse after excuse in favour of the jaguar. Where's your evidence of sub-adults being included which decreased the average skull measurements of Pantanal jaguaresses? Where's your evidence of Persian leopards being measured "the wrong way" which increased their average skull measurements? I already brought up evidence for the latter. Quote:Huh? It was never about Pantanal jaguars. You stated Henschel had never seen "a jaguar". Henschel says Gabonese males "look more like jags" because of their build. Nobody is bringing up Pantanal jaguars in this case. Quote:What is there to be careful about? You see leopards almost every trip? Based on what? Seeing is one is for many people one of their highlights because of how unique it is. That's the general consensus of course because in Yala National Park it's fairly easy to spot one due to them being less elusive and the high concentration of leopards in the park. Henschel has spotted leopards himself as well but not doing this for a paycheck. Remember the photo of a leopard in Benin taken by Henschel himself? Also seeing more leopards doesn't mean you're more knowledgeable. Henschel has studies under his name, he still gets citations in newer studies. Henschel is an authority on the subject. Quote:It doesn't matter, he specifically mentions that was over a 5 year process. At that rate, he's seen 20 now. I'm sorry, it was your friend who said he's "a person who's only seen leopards behind a computer screen" That rate is obviously not correct since he's been to other countries after this 2010 report. Dutoit is going to see the same leopards over and over again, the number of Instagram posts won't change this fact. Quote:Lol The skulls from the 2013 study from Van Neer were measured by themselves. Of course the skulls are from musuem or private collections. The origin of the measurements are scientific, that is what matters. Quote:This same nonsense again The shortest condylobasal length was 243 mm with a total length of 277 mm but in this case it's 264 mm which is a big difference. No chance that the difference between the two is only 10 cm for this skull. Also the second longest skull is as wides as the no.1 but the complete measurements are available and have been shown to you; this skull was superior in every department - it's a bigger skull so the length is no less than 281 mm. Quote:Fled the scene? Yes you fled the scene on another forum. The debate back then was which cat produced +80kg specimens more often (male leopard vs jaguaress). All you did was bring up Pantanal jaguaresses who are just a fraction of the entire population. I can rely on multiple populations in different countries and even continents whereas you at best can rely on two populations in Brazil and one in Venezuela. It's a very debatable topic but I was never proven to be wrong. Quote:At this point we're done, you present no new data and you continuously twist and turn away from the facts to try and change the goalpost. You're the one mixing different debates as I've shown in this post. Lastly you haven't brought up any data at all except some Instagram posts as if that confirms anything except for one single person's opinion. Quote:Are you going to say he hasn't seen Lioness either? I'm going to say the same thing in that he is simply boasting the jaguars and that he is again very vague in his statements. Again he doesn't specify anything as if all male jaguars are lioness-sized. We both know this isn't the case. I created these two tables of similar-sized male leopards and jaguars:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Can I now yell that male leopards are "just about the same size as lionesses, not too far off"? After all male jaguars are according to Dutoit. See what I mean with these vague statements?
@
Quote:Doesn't it make the slighest sense that it's better to use the lower weight? It is likely that the animal has no or few stomach content at this point. But for the jaguar table, several males have their higher weight given.The weight was obtained, if they want to specify 2 captures or not is up to them. Nothing changes the fact that those weights were actually measured and verified. In regards to what you deem as "dubious" It's absolutely very possible that they are larger today than in the past. You also don't seem to have an understanding about the past. The modern weights *after the illegalization of hunting Jaguars and Caimans* is what they are talking about. You had millions of Caiman and thousands of Jaguars hunted to near extinction, then protections were put in place and thus their numbers slowly began to grow to where they are today. And as you have seen, Jaguars like Lopez and Joker and many others have obtained larger sizes. The fact remains, females and males have grown in weight. Quote:For the weight table, 91kg was the maximum given but for the weight chart, 115kg is the maximum so in either case the 95kg isn't used. It's merely mentioned in a Facebook post plus that was the circa weight at the time of euthanasia anyway. 115kg was his weight at the time of his capture, confirmed by the veterinarian. That's the story of this male.Once again, 115kg wasn't confirmed by the vet hence the fact that he wasn't there during capture. Quote:You forgot the 1977 study where a 90kg male is mentioned.Did I? Do you have any details on this male? Do you even know what reference they are referring too? Is there a reason no actual body dimensions are given? Let's shine a little light on it... The reference is to Fred Harringtons book "A guide to mammals of iran" Which is as it sounds, an encyclopedia. I would wager the weight is a round number mentioned for the species. But don't worry, I've bought the book and will confirm as such. But again, you use these claims without doing due diligence because you're desperate to find a 90kg Persian. And of course you can see the same figures in round numbers quoted in the Encylopaedia Iranica https://iranicaonline.org/articles/leopa...s-palang-1 The Persian leopard from the northern regions of the country is certainly one of the largest among the many races of leopards in the world. Height at shoulder is to 75 cm; the weight 60-90 kg Quote:Have you seen the all the photos available? This is him during his capture, clearly full:  *This image is copyright of its original author How about this image? compared to this one?  *This image is copyright of its original author There is nothing "clear" about it and in fact, his wet abdomen looks more like when he was captured as opposed to euthanized. Quote:When a wild animal is brought in, it is because they can partly conclude if it's healthy based on their body weight. It's not when they have to operate in the wild. For Pantanal jaguars this seems possible every time though. When an animal is brought in, certainly not on site unless they have a scale on hand. Like was is used during certain Jaguar captures which of course is verified and even shown on video. Quote:How's the 95kg figure? It's from a Facebook post whereas the 115kg figure is mentioned in the study, included in the weight chart and confirmed by the veterinarian?It's mentioned in the study to be disregarded. Quote:Reread what I stated. Northern Iranian males will best or surpass them. The frequency in % is already close despite the sample which included 40-50kg males from Central and South Iran. This is called probability calculation.There is nothing to reread, the frequency favors the female Jaguars. And again you don't have a clue which if any are from Central or South as per mentioned, they are mostly from the north. Quote:We don't have any info except the excluded male yet you know for a fact that most of the weights are from northern Iranian males? Can you provide evidence to back up this claim?Once again.... the person who wrote the actual study stated it. And the "largest weights" were from 70-88kg. We already have smaller such as M1 and M6 that were under 60kgs and also from the north. Then you have a 66kg Male from Chapur-Ghoymeh and 3 other males who are even smaller than that male all from the north. I'm sure I can find more, especially since they've recorded over 50 Males in the past 15 years that have been killed via road accidents. Quote:Tandoureh National Park isn't regarded as northern Iran but northeastern Iran near Turkmenistan. Northern Iran consists of the provinces Gilan, Mazandaran en Golestan and the environment is forest habitat (Hyrcanian forests). Not saying they don't grow big but the absolute biggest are from northern Iran specifically. Lowest weight from this region is 64kg and was a young male.What are you talking about? They're less than 200 miles away from one another. Leopards will easily make that trek between the locations. Quote:If his estimation is based on males including those from Tandoureh National Park, then yes it's possible is stays at only 70kg. But that's merging populations. See above what is meant with northern Iranian leopards.Once again, it's based off of whatever information he's been given. The populations will have no effect being that close to one another and as I've already shown, we have numerous N. Iran Leopards less than 70kgs and I'd wager there are even more than listed. Quote:There are weights where just a figure was given after someone asked for it when they saw an Instagram photo of a captured jaguar. Including the word "around" which meant they had to ask again after a long time to get actual confirmation. You absolutely do not have all these 'requirements' of yours. If so give me the measurements of the outlier Lopez. Or Joker's weight and not the 'at least X' figure. You can't be serious? We literally have the video of Lopez being weighed as well as confirmation from the ones involved in the weighing and we have Jokers measurements from both captures as well as him being weighed but exceeding the max. While you try and use Harringtons weight as a conclusive 90kg Leopard without provided any such details. The hypocrisy is astounding. Quote:It was never about Pantanal jaguars. You stated Henschel had never seen "a jaguar". Henschel says Gabonese males "look more like jags" because of their build. Nobody is bringing up Pantanal jaguars in this case.Of course it was, it was specified time and time again. Quote:You see leopards almost every trip? Based on what? Seeing is one is for many people one of their highlights because of how unique it is. That's the general consensus of course because in Yala National Park it's fairly easy to spot one due to them being less elusive and the high concentration of leopards in the park. Based on me going there my self and seeing them, speaking with the guides and tourists as well as communicating with many others who've done the same. Again, you don't know what you're talking about because you've never been. And who cares about Henschel, we literally just discussed his document of seeing few in 10 years or whatever he said. Compared to Marlon who's seen 100s. Quote:Also seeing more leopards doesn't mean you're more knowledgeable. Henschel has studies under his name, he still gets citations in newer studies. Henschel is an authority on the subject.I'm not sure if you're aware but that's called experience and generally the more you have the more knowledgeable you become on the subject. Quote:The skulls from the 2013 study from Van Neer were measured by themselves. Of course the skulls are from musuem or private collections. The origin of the measurements are scientific, that is what matters.Once again, they weren't captured by him, nor is there any details about the actual leopards. So you're attempt at discrediting whether they were obtained by hunting or another mean is meaningless. Quote:The shortest condylobasal length was 243 mm with a total length of 277 mm but in this case it's 264 mm which is a big difference. No chance that the difference between the two is only 10 cm for this skull. Also the second longest skull is as wides as the no.1 but the complete measurements are available and have been shown to you; this skull was superior in every department - it's a bigger skull so the length is no less than 281 mm.Once again, there was no correlation to CBL in TL. Hence why you cannot claim a record length based off a record CBL. So once again, the 2nd longest CBL on the list is still shorter than 7 other skulls on the list. There is absolutely no way you can claim that the longest CBL which is only 8mm longer than the 2nd longest one is somehow 19mm longer in TL. Proof of this is the fact that you have skulls that are 10mm shorter than others in CBL while being actually longer than the other skull which is 10mm more in CBL. Quote:Yes you fled the scene on another forum. The debate back then was which cat produced +80kg specimens more often (male leopard vs jaguaress). All you did was bring up Pantanal jaguaresses who are just a fraction of the entire population. I can rely on multiple populations in different countries and even continents whereas you at best can rely on two populations in Brazil and one in Venezuela.This is clown statement. I'm here right now proving you wrong. Quote:I created these two tables of similar-sized male leopards and jaguars:I couldn't care less about a table you create knowing how bad you are skewing data and hiding information. Hence this absurd statement below Quote:Can I now yell that male leopards are "just about the same size as lionesses, not too far off"? After all male jaguars are according to Dutoit. See what I mean with these vague statements?Because he wasn't in the pantanal specifically talking about pantanal jaguars?
@Pckts
Quote:The weight was obtained, if they want to specify 2 captures or not is up to them. Nothing changes the fact that those weights were actually measured and verified. That's not an answer why the creators of the table decided to stick with the higher ones even if a more recent one is lower and likely more towards an empty cat. Quote:In regards to what you deem as "dubious" This table says females haven't grown in size at all unlike males who increased in size towards 115kg. But then it dropped twice so there's that. I advice you to watch the latest video of Kevin Richardson, 'The Lion Whisperer'. He was in the Pantanal and the guide said a big male in this area is around 110-120kg. The area was Porto Jofre. That's weird how a big male is the size of an average male according to the selfmade table isn't it? Quote:Once again, 115kg wasn't confirmed by the vet hence the fact that he wasn't there during capture. It is confirmed personally to you, me and @ Quote:Did I? Good that you bought the book, perhaps there's additional data worth sharing. But I'm not desperate, I simply found this overview in a study and the table's title clearly says: "Weight and sizes of leopards in other studies". I'm assuming this is a weight of a specific male otherwise they could've included the minimum as well but they didn't. Encyclopedia's gather info from somewhere so it's possible this isn't just a rounded figure. Until you find out more, this male is mentioned in a study and according to said study they gathered it via another study. Quote:How about this image?Just compare the one's I posted and it's clear that his body condition wasn't "fine". I posted two photos; one at the beginning of the operation and one at the very end. Quote:When an animal is brought in, certainly not on site unless they have a scale on hand. Like was is used during certain Jaguar captures which of course is verified and even shown on video. When one is "brought in", that is with a veterinarian who should have a scale at his disposal. I'm not just saying this, I was told by someone who's closely related to veterinarians and rangers in Kruger. It's a standard procedure that they gather all data and sent it to organisations like Panthera. Quote:It's mentioned in the study to be disregarded. But included in the weight chart. Not fully disregarded and the weight is confirmed by Iman Memarian. Seriously, how long will you go in circles? Quote:There is nothing to reread, the frequency favors the female Jaguars. And again you don't have a clue which if any are from Central or South as per mentioned, they are mostly from the north. You literally shared 40-50kg males yourself? Quote:Once again.... the person who wrote the actual study stated it. And the "largest weights" were from 70-88kg. We already have smaller such as M1 and M6 that were under 60kgs and also from the north. 'M1 and M6' are from Tandoureh National Park which isn't located in northern Iran. Quote:What are you talking about? They're less than 200 miles away from one another. Leopards will easily make that trek between the locations. What I'm telling you are facts. Tandoureh National Park does not belong to northern Iran so those males are from a different population. Northern Iranian leopards live in or outside Golestan National Park and Hyrcan forest. Quote:Once again, it's based off of whatever information he's been given. The populations will have no effect being that close to one another and as I've already shown, we have numerous N. Iran Leopards less than 70kgs and I'd wager there are even more than listed. There's a difference in habitat and prey between Tandoureh National Park and Golestan National Park or Hyrcan forest for sure as well as climate. It surely as an effect. It says enough that a young male from Golestan National Park already weighed 64kg, almost as much as an average Persian male in whole of Iran. Quote:You can't be serious? I'm asking about Lopez' measurements, not his weight of which I'm aware. You demand many criteria for leopards but you're fine with Lopez' weight without measurements. And if I'm not mistaken, lot's of errors occurred with that weight didn't it? Like adding it twice into the table. Quote:Of course it was, it was specified time and time again. You stated this: "You trying to compare Henschel who's never seen a Jaguar or possibly even a Gabonese Leopard to Dutoit who's seen 100s of Leopards from all over africa as well as going to the pantanal numerous times and seeing Jags in person is ridicolous." Not only were you proven wrong with Henschel never seen a Gabonese leopard but you also NEVER mentioned a Pantanal jaguar. Quote:Based on me going there my self and seeing them, speaking with the guides and tourists as well as communicating with many others who've done the same. Again, you don't know what you're talking about because you've never been. That argument is getting really old - you having been there and others not. Still your argument is overall not true. You don't just see leopards every trip. Especially males who are elusive and have such a wide territory and are patrolling or resting usually. Again I say overall because there are exceptions (e.g. Yala National Park). You're right, who cares about Henschel, a leading big cat expert? Dutoit has (maybe) seen more leopards so he's the one we should trust more even though he doesn't publish scientific studies unlike Henschel. Really, this is giving me those vibes again when Henschel was called a volunteer. What an ignorance. Quote:I'm not sure if you're aware but that's called experience and generally the more you have the more knowledgeable you become on the subject. I'm not sure if you're aware but Henschel has been longer active and doing much more than just posting Instagram posts: "August 2000-2006: PI Forest Leopard Study, for Wildlife Conservation Society - Gabon. I assessed the impact of anthropogenic disturbances (most importantly bushmeat hunting) on leopard numbers, distribution and diet in the Congo Basin rainforest. January 2009: Completed PhD at Göttingen University, Germany. Thesis title: The conservation biology of the leopard in Gabon: status, threats and strategies for conservation." Instagram exists since 2010 just for your information. If you have questions regarding leopards, Henschel should be the one you go to rather than Dutoit. I really hope you think the same. Quote:Once again, they weren't captured by him, nor is there any details about the actual leopards. So you're attempt at discrediting whether they were obtained by hunting or another mean is meaningless. Do you have every detail of every jaguar skull? If so, please provide evidence that sub-adult jaguaresses were included for the average measurements which you claimed. As you can see, I can play this game too. Quote:Once again, there was no correlation to CBL in TL. Hence why you cannot claim a record length based off a record CBL. It's pretty simple; there is indeed no correlation to condylobasal length in total length. However, the shortest condylobasal length was 243 mm with a total length of 277 mm. A skull with a condylobasal length of 264 mm isn't going to be smaller. Added to that, Chui shared additional measurements and it's in each and every way a bigger skull than no.2 in the list which comes from the same study. You cannot deny that this skull is longer than the no.2 skull (281 mm). If you do, I suggest we add more users of this forum to this debate who have more knowledge on skulls. I'll then share the full overview of skulls between skull no.1 and no.2. Sounds fair? Quote:This is clown statement. Starting to use insults? Bad attitude but it does indicate you know it's true. I can share the link of the debate? You literally decided to abandon it so yes, you fled the scene. Quote:I couldn't care less about a table you create knowing how bad you are skewing data and hiding information. The data is solely from scientific studies. You don't care about these tables but prefere selfmade jaguar tables over scientific ones? Again what an ignorance OR you're being selective which could also be the case. Quote:Because he wasn't in the pantanal specifically talking about pantanal jaguars? He literally posted the hasthtag #pantanal twice? What are you talking about? Just admit he's vague with his statements which is solely so he can boast the animals and his Instagram posts.  (01-10-2023, 05:32 AM)LandSeaLion Wrote: That’s horrendous…poor thing.Alborz is really the symbol of animal resilience against humanity, between all animals I've seen first hand being rescued in my reserve or in documentaries as a whole I think none comes close to what Alborz experienced. He was allegedly shot over 50 times according to a site ( I doubt that number, but he had a lot of bullet wounds and he already survived getting shot) , one of those bullets hit the spinal cord so he was completely paralyzed and due to stress it didn't eat for 10 days of captivity. And think of all the sedating and the energy it takes to get fully awake. There are animals who simply don't wake up but that could be due to the dose. May he rest in complete peace in the arms of Mother Nature that created him for how strong and nearly invincible he was ❤️  *This image is copyright of its original author
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