Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences

[Twico5]

(04-30-2022, 12:11 AM)Pckts Wrote:

Wow that is a huge jaguar. Male jaguars are really massive and impressive Reply

[Pckts]

Velizar Simeonovski

"The complexity of assessing body size/body proportions by the bones
Panthera humeri - lengths and widths
The male jaguar and both lions are captive,
all full grown,
The male lion is flipped for clarity."

*This image is copyright of its original author

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[Pckts]

*This image is copyright of its original author

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[Luipaard]

(08-02-2022, 06:05 PM)Pckts Wrote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

That's a vague statement isn't it? Especially considering that male leopards have a similar maximum shoulder height as male jaguars. In mass jaguaresses and male leopards too are similar. He isn't even comparing cats; he's boasting the jaguars because that's what Marlon Dutoit does.

No jaguaress is going to dwarf big Persian males from northern Iran but at the same time that jaguaress he mentions could be thrice the size of an Arabian male leopard. Again it's a vague statement. Reply

[Pckts]

(08-12-2022, 03:33 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(08-02-2022, 06:05 PM)Pckts Wrote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

That's a vague statement isn't it? Especially considering that male leopards have a similar maximum shoulder height as male jaguars. In mass jaguaresses and male leopards too are similar. He isn't even comparing cats; he's boasting the jaguars because that's what Marlon Dutoit does.

No jaguaress is going to dwarf big Persian males from northern Iran but at the same time that jaguaress he mentions could be thrice the size of an Arabian male leopard. Again it's a vague statement.

Shoulder height isn’t indicative of a cats size and similar isn’t the same.

Female Jaguars from the Pantanal are going to dwarf male Leopards which is what was stated. Not that they’ll dwarf the largest individuals of the Leopard species. And regardless of location, female Pantanal  Jaguars will be larger than any male leopard subspecies. The largest Persians, Africans and Indians will all overlap with Female Jaguars for sure but the biggest of them more often is the Female Panatanal Jaguar. 

Lastly, there’s no discrediting Marlon, he’s seen 100s of leopards and dozens of Jaguars, he’s not making uneducated claims. Reply

[Luipaard]

(08-12-2022, 07:11 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(08-12-2022, 03:33 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(08-02-2022, 06:05 PM)Pckts Wrote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

That's a vague statement isn't it? Especially considering that male leopards have a similar maximum shoulder height as male jaguars. In mass jaguaresses and male leopards too are similar. He isn't even comparing cats; he's boasting the jaguars because that's what Marlon Dutoit does.

No jaguaress is going to dwarf big Persian males from northern Iran but at the same time that jaguaress he mentions could be thrice the size of an Arabian male leopard. Again it's a vague statement.

Shoulder height isn’t indicative of a cats size and similar isn’t the same.

Female Jaguars from the Pantanal are going to dwarf male Leopards which is what was stated. Not that they’ll dwarf the largest individuals of the Leopard species. And regardless of location, female Pantanal  Jaguars will be larger than any male leopard subspecies. The largest Persians, Africans and Indians will all overlap with Female Jaguars for sure but the biggest of them more often is the Female Panatanal Jaguar. 

Lastly, there’s no discrediting Marlon, he’s seen 100s of leopards and dozens of Jaguars, he’s not making uneducated claims.

When talking about dwarfing someone/something, height is a key factor. That or sheer bulk in which he's partly right (see my example). Pantanal jaguaresses are not going to dwarf Persian male leopards from northern Iran, the difference in size on average is at best 5kg which isn't enough to dwarf a similar cat.

I'm not discrediting Dutoit's Instagram posts. He just boasted the jaguaress' size like rangers and guides now and then call certain male leopards "the size of a lioness" or a "lioness with spots". Doesn't mean it's true even though they've seen plenty of male leopards and lionesses. Basically Dutoit should've been more specific. Reply

[Sully]

On plastic responses to novel environments from the book 'Unsolved Problems in Ecology':

"For example, frogs locally adapted to the genotoxic effects of increased ultraviolet type B radiations at higher elevations exhibit increased resistance to polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, pollutants that also have genotoxic effects (Marquis et.al 2009). We argue that considering the natural stressors to which organisms are currently adapted may help us predict which species may tolerate novel, anthropogenic stressors in a way current models may not."

This got me thinking of the many discussions of size in the LvT topic. Namely, based on Guate's data that on the species level they are very similar in weight (very slight edge to lions) whereas on the subspecies level tigers get clearly larger but also smaller, a larger range. A hypothesis was put forward that tigers have more plasticity in their size due to their natural history of multiple intermingling waves of expansions and retractions in range from small islands to large taiga expanses, and that this varied more than the history of lions ecologically (I should add I'm aware the Ngandong tiger was the largest and part sunda mixed with the mainland population, and that lions are plastic too but more so in pride size/composition). In other words, tigers exploit open space/ resources but tolerate constrained space/resources more than lions as it's in their genetic history to survive in more varied environments as individuals. I was wondering if there was any work on tiger size plasticity (a quick google scholar search came up blank) and/or how it differs from other cats? Reply

[Pckts]

Velizar Simeonovski

  
Body proportions of some Machairodontids and large Panthera. (composition of plates and sketches from 2012 ish or so). The Machairodontids are based on complete articulated (re-articulated) skeletons, Panthera - on live animals. All the species are adjusted to the same size to accent on the body proportions differences. In Machairodontids the approach to the body outline developing in the variants with skeletons is strictly conservative, and moderately conservative in the variants with no skeletons.
The common main difference between Machairodontids and Panthera is the relatively large heads in the latter. The shoulder height in the relaxed, but stable position of the body depends on the angle "a" 

*This image is copyright of its original author

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[Pckts]

Colombian Camera trap

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cih5cAaLSPI/ Reply

[Lycaon]

That jaguar is dense and long. Reply

[dominusforti]

So I have a topic for discussion.

In paleontology, it is commonly found that the survivors of a large scale extinction event will experience a reduction in size compared to their ancestors.


Well, as we know, during the Late Pleistocene most species of large terrestrial animal became extinct, and the few species of megafauna that remain (largely concetrated in the African and Asian tropics) seem to be noticably smaller than their Pleistocene counterparts. This includes polar bears savannah elephants, and of course big cats like tigers, jaguars, and lions.

What is interesting though is that morphology related to body size allometrically. What this means is that due to their larger body size, Pleistocene felids were also morphologically different than than Holocene successors, in ways that affected their function.

The question I'd like to pose is, how much has morphology among felids varied over time? Have Bengal tigers really become larger or smaller over the course of history? Some seem to think so. Have lions become less muscular or heavily built? Old literature often states lions as thicker or stockier than other cats, but this is not so today, at least compared to tigers and jaguars. Are there are papers that compare muscle attachments in, say Ngandong tigers to those of modern tigers? I find these questions very interesting, personally. Reply

[Tryormaster]

Is the difference between the caninie bite force between a jaguar and leopard is lesser than the carnassial bite force? Reply

[Styx38]

(08-12-2022, 07:11 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(08-12-2022, 03:33 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(08-02-2022, 06:05 PM)Pckts Wrote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

That's a vague statement isn't it? Especially considering that male leopards have a similar maximum shoulder height as male jaguars. In mass jaguaresses and male leopards too are similar. He isn't even comparing cats; he's boasting the jaguars because that's what Marlon Dutoit does.

No jaguaress is going to dwarf big Persian males from northern Iran but at the same time that jaguaress he mentions could be thrice the size of an Arabian male leopard. Again it's a vague statement.

Shoulder height isn’t indicative of a cats size and similar isn’t the same.

Female Jaguars from the Pantanal are going to dwarf male Leopards which is what was stated. Not that they’ll dwarf the largest individuals of the Leopard species. And regardless of location, female Pantanal  Jaguars will be larger than any male leopard subspecies. The largest Persians, Africans and Indians will all overlap with Female Jaguars for sure but the biggest of them more often is the Female Panatanal Jaguar. 

Lastly, there’s no discrediting Marlon, he’s seen 100s of leopards and dozens of Jaguars, he’s not making uneducated claims.

Not trying to argue with Marlon, but what national parks has he gone to for Leopards? Reply

[Pckts]

(12-26-2022, 03:37 PM)Styx38 Wrote:

(08-12-2022, 07:11 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(08-12-2022, 03:33 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(08-02-2022, 06:05 PM)Pckts Wrote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

That's a vague statement isn't it? Especially considering that male leopards have a similar maximum shoulder height as male jaguars. In mass jaguaresses and male leopards too are similar. He isn't even comparing cats; he's boasting the jaguars because that's what Marlon Dutoit does.

No jaguaress is going to dwarf big Persian males from northern Iran but at the same time that jaguaress he mentions could be thrice the size of an Arabian male leopard. Again it's a vague statement.

Shoulder height isn’t indicative of a cats size and similar isn’t the same.

Female Jaguars from the Pantanal are going to dwarf male Leopards which is what was stated. Not that they’ll dwarf the largest individuals of the Leopard species. And regardless of location, female Pantanal  Jaguars will be larger than any male leopard subspecies. The largest Persians, Africans and Indians will all overlap with Female Jaguars for sure but the biggest of them more often is the Female Panatanal Jaguar. 

Lastly, there’s no discrediting Marlon, he’s seen 100s of leopards and dozens of Jaguars, he’s not making uneducated claims.

Not trying to argue with Marlon, but what national parks has he gone to for Leopards?

https://instagram.com/marlondutoit?igshid=Zjc2ZTc4Nzk=

He’s seen leopards from all over E/S Africa. 
Name a major park and he’s probably been there. Reply

[Styx38]

(12-26-2022, 06:13 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(12-26-2022, 03:37 PM)Styx38 Wrote:

(08-12-2022, 07:11 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(08-12-2022, 03:33 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(08-02-2022, 06:05 PM)Pckts Wrote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

That's a vague statement isn't it? Especially considering that male leopards have a similar maximum shoulder height as male jaguars. In mass jaguaresses and male leopards too are similar. He isn't even comparing cats; he's boasting the jaguars because that's what Marlon Dutoit does.

No jaguaress is going to dwarf big Persian males from northern Iran but at the same time that jaguaress he mentions could be thrice the size of an Arabian male leopard. Again it's a vague statement.

Shoulder height isn’t indicative of a cats size and similar isn’t the same.

Female Jaguars from the Pantanal are going to dwarf male Leopards which is what was stated. Not that they’ll dwarf the largest individuals of the Leopard species. And regardless of location, female Pantanal  Jaguars will be larger than any male leopard subspecies. The largest Persians, Africans and Indians will all overlap with Female Jaguars for sure but the biggest of them more often is the Female Panatanal Jaguar. 

Lastly, there’s no discrediting Marlon, he’s seen 100s of leopards and dozens of Jaguars, he’s not making uneducated claims.

Not trying to argue with Marlon, but what national parks has he gone to for Leopards?

https://instagram.com/marlondutoit?igshid=Zjc2ZTc4Nzk=

He’s seen leopards from all over E/S Africa. 
Name a major park and he’s probably been there.

Ok.

So did he go as a guide or a tourist to all tthese parks?

Also you mentioned that he went to India? Reply