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Can we tell how big cats are doing by the number of wild dogs in the area?

Finland Shadow Offline

(02-12-2019, 04:03 AM)smedz Wrote:
(02-11-2019, 12:12 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(02-11-2019, 05:33 AM)smedz Wrote:
(02-10-2019, 11:30 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:
(02-10-2019, 11:09 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(02-10-2019, 10:50 AM)Pantherinae Wrote:
(02-10-2019, 10:23 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(02-10-2019, 09:25 AM)Pantherinae Wrote:
(02-10-2019, 09:05 AM)smedz Wrote:
(01-23-2015, 03:17 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: @Spalea I really don't belive one bit that wild dogs can have a single chance against lions, my own personal experience is that I have seen lions walk right in and steal the kill from 15-20 wild dogs, killing them by running right into a pack of them. and one lioness walking thru a big pack wild dogs. wild dogs are formidable predators and I have alot of respect for them, but storries about them compeating with lions and even killing them is just not true.. even big packs of wild dogs can't manage to kill single hyenas, large blue wildebeast etc. and no way they kill lions. 

same with dhole's they are formidable animals. but serriously a tiger? a tiger do not have to fear wild dog's one bit. there are some big dhole packs in tadoba, but tigers do not fear them, trust me! and also the old storries was "several wild dogs fighting one male tiger several dogs died during that fight" I do not think any animals of any times did fights like this, those kind of storries you hear alot from the past and old storries, like two male lions vs 35 hyenas several hyenas died and the lion survived, it's over dramaticiced storries all of them. 

and yes @Pckts I do think big cats, does have a negative effect on dogs. I have seen both leopards and several lions with killed wild dogs! aswell as tigers killing dholes, and heared about how siberian tiger apperences can make all wolves in the area dissapere.  
We're any of those Lions males by any chance? Just wondering. Believe me, I agree with you on Dholes and tigers. According to Dr. Kamler, a guy who studies wild canids apparently, wild dogs prefer to live in large packs so they can be effective in keeping other packs out of their hunting grounds. Since that's the case, Dholes need all the adult pack members for defending territories, and if a tiger killed about let's say a dozen Dholes in combat, then the pack becomes more vulnerable to being overopowered by a larger pack, so there really is no advantage to being suicidal in their case.

Yes it’s both males and lionesses. 
They won’t mess with those guys. 
Yes if they where to try and kill a lion/tiger they would likely all die either on the spot or from injuries, and the cats would most likely leave alive. Also if the cats realise they where in trouble they would jump into a tree. Nothing makes sense. It’s all pure fairytales, to sell books. That’s why I always need photograpic evidence before I belive anything. 

Here is a video of a male lion with wild dogs. 


And here you can see how durable a lion is, she survives this attack. And spotted hyenas are bigger and much stronger than any living canid. As well as more numerous and can live in clans of up to 80-90 animals!

Heh, is here also tiger-dhole thread ;Wink Well I disagree about what you write, that all fairy tales. I simply don´t think, that someone like Sterndale writes so good information and then suddenly starts to put fairy tales there. Could you tell me how do you feel, when you read he´s text? It is one thing to have doubts, but now I think, that you say quite much against your better judgement.
No I can’t see a dhole pack kill a tiger... it really doesn’t make sense. 
If the tiger was in trouble it would jump up the nearest tree. 
And why would dholes attack an animal that would likely kill half the pack?  
That would be insane, male tigers are 200+ kg animals.
It doesn’t make sense.
Yes I know, that you have doubts. There we can disagree naturally and no problem. But I am interested about your claim, that people writing that to books would be writing fairy tales to sell books. I don´t see any sense in that, when mentioning for instance names like Sterndale and let´s say Sankhala. That was quite strong statement to write like that, I think.

I do have doubts too for many cases, but I don´t dare to say about things, that no way ever just because I haven´t seen it, if it is still possible. As I have said before, there have been much more surprising things happening in wildlife than some dead tigers by dholes would be. Many things, which can be called insane. And even suicidal behavior from animals, if those would be common behavior cases.

Btw in that video of yours was said, that no certainty if that lioness survived, you wrote, that it didn´t die, you have some extra information about that case? Anyway here is one case, where this lion looks like to die.

The reason I’m asking questions is because it goes against everything. 
Why would dholes attack an adult tiger? In Nagarahole I’ve seen massive dhole packs and I have never seen them target female gaurs and no tigers have been killed. 
They are wild animals after all, and won’t be suicidal and attack tigers. And for an animal arround 20 kg it’s hard to even injure an animals that big. 

Ignore the books, and look at interractions between the species and both animals behavior. 
hat tells me it has never happend, and never will. If a tiger was attacked by them and realisere it was in trouble it would find the nearest tree. 
And more surprising things have happend you say? I would love an example.

About the lioness: It’s been posted here before that she survives. I heard it from the guy who filmed, that the lioness was seen the next day with her cubs.
Alright, I'll take your advice on that. Seeing as though you have lots of experience with this. Plus my grandfather did teach me not to believe everything I read.

That is a good advice, especially when some biologists spends years on the field personally and is telling about his/hers observations. Tourists visiting some place 1-2 times in safari cars are of course having much more competence and expertise, than people spending countless days, nights and hours somewhere Wink  I find your way to think quite.... heh Wink

Very funny, first off, I'm just taking Rishi's advice and taking this guy's advice. He clearly knows a lot about animals, and you know what, for the fact that Sankhala said the Dholes scared all the game away and the tigers weren't at least trying to drive them out just doesn't make sense to me. Pantherinae has made some good contributions to this forum, so you have no right to tell me not to take advice from him, nor do I have the right to do something similar. I'm sure he has visited some places more than 1-2 times, but I'm not certain. Besides, I do think he studies African big cats time to time, so he is a reliable source thank you very much.

I teased you a little bit, again Wink Pantherinae is a smart guy, so is Rishi and many others. And as you can see from what pckts and guate are writing there on dhole thread and tiger thread, many opinions here.

Pantherinae is very skeptical to some things in which I keep somewhat more open mind if I see even a slight possibility, that something could have happened or maybe happen again in future. I respect his knowledge a lot, even though I can question him time to time. In forum like this everyone have to accept, that it can happen. Otherwise there would be no point in the whole thing. Point is to have some manners and give as good reasoning as possible, when saying something, I think. Also separating clearly what thoughts are own thinking and where then quoting some study etc.

Of course when reading something criticism is needed and as many sources as possible. I think, that I have got same advice from my grandfather in the past. Then again one example about "picture or never happened". My grandfather and uncle (they used a lot of time in the woods) told me many things about animals back then. One  thing was, that a bear can kill a big moose. I believed them, because I really wanted to know at those times a lot and I also used to notice, when they were kidding with me Grin But anyway, it took decades to see first videos confirming that. And even today there aren´t too many such videos in youtube and not too many photos either. 

But what comes to books, there is same thing I think. Older the book is, the more cautious have to be with many conclusions. But then again pure observations can still be valid. My opinion is, that it is important to read as much as possible about some subject, what feels interesting. With source criticism and of course comparing to all other information available. No matter if liking what is reading or not.

But what comes to dhole subject, I focus now to discuss about it only in dhole thread, this takes too much time otherwise :) Ps. about zoos, did you know this organization?   I mean if you were looking for some zoo to possibly work, maybe you would like to see as member of that organization.

United Kingdom Sully Offline
Predator Enthusiast
( This post was last modified: 06-21-2019, 02:29 AM by Sully )

Ancient cats drove ancient dogs to extinction 

The battle between cats and dogs goes back millions of years – and it looks like the cats won one of the early rounds.
During the Eocene Era, about 55.8-33.9 million years ago, mammal populations were exploding across the planet. The earliest primates had appeared just a few million years before and at their peak, about 30 different canine species roamed what is now North America. But according to a new study, most of these ancient dogs suddenly disappeared about 20 million years ago. The culprit? Early cats.

“While several groups of carnivores might have competed with dogs, felids [cats] are the groups that shows by far the strongest evidence of competition,” computational biologist and lead author Daniele Silvestro told Katherine Ellen Foley for Quartz via email.
To figure out exactly what caused these ancient canines to go extinct, Silvestro and his team looked at more than 2,000 fossils from all sorts of animals that lived in the same area from about 20-40 million years ago. The researchers compared the body types of carnivores like bears, wolves and big cats to see which animals might have directly competed for food at a time when the planet was undergoing severe climate change. According to Silvestro, ancient cats like the false-sabretooth cat fit the profile perfectly: they were about the same size as the canines, they ate the same food and were thriving and diversifying at the same time as the dogs rapidly disappeared from the fossil record, Foley writes.
Today, there are only about nine different dog species living in North America. Even though the planet’s climate was rapidly changing at the time, it appears that cats were just better predators than their rivals.

"We usually expect climate changes to play an overwhelming role in the evolution of biodiversity,” Silvestro said in a statement. “Instead, competition among different carnivore species proved to be even more important for canids.”

The figure most often quoted is that 40 dog species in north America were driven to extinction by cats that came over from Asia. It is evident they can devastate the candid population, as we see in certain places today.

"The research finds that cats have played a significant role in making 40 dog species extinct, outcompeting them for scarce food supplies because they are generally more effective hunters. But researchers found no evidence that dogs have wiped out a single cat species."
"When the tiger stalks the jungle like the lowering clouds of a thunderstorm, the leopard moves as silently as mist drifting on a dawn wind." -Indian proverb
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