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BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS
BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS
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BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS
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 (03-09-2015, 03:49 AM)'Pckts' Wrote: Until somebody weighs one or eye witnesses who have seen both gives proof of this, that is not a correct statement. They infact are Serengetti Lions. They come from the serengetti and as recently as 30 years ago, they had imported from the serengetti to the crater. It is far more likely that they're going to be the exact same as Serengetti Lions. Eye witness say that crater lions are huge. I´m not saying that they are "extremely large". I also agree with "I just don't see very much weight differences from place to place when comparing African Lions. They are usually very close to each other and the weights generally show that." - btw I wrote something like that in one of my posts. I also said that alleged 212 kg average seems too much...too big difference from Serengeti lions. I´d say 190-200kg. Just my 2 cents...You say "exact same as Serengeti lions" - that means around 180 kg. OK, but why are crater females larger than Serengeti females? 
I didn't mean to equalize the Crater population with the Serengeti one. Say Kruger is 205 kg on average for males (+17 kg added to the official adjusted number, I'm just speculating on the number), 190-200 kg for males is a reasonable estimate to use based on females only.
(03-09-2015, 10:27 PM)'tigerluver' Wrote: I didn't mean to equalize the Crater population with the Serengeti one. Say Kruger is 205 kg on average for males (+17 kg added to the official adjusted number, I'm just speculating on the number), 190-200 kg for males is a reasonable estimate to use based on females only. btw why do you think that 124 kg average for crater females is non-adjusted? Does it mean that 104 kg average is also non-adjusted and empty serengeti females are well under 100 kg?
This is the document on the females:
https://www.cbs.umn.edu/sites/default/fi...Crater.pdf The equation used to estimate the masses (mass = 1.8*girth-78.2). So whether or not the equation produced adjusted masses depends on what database was used to produce the regression. More often than not, weights are not adjusted. The figure I posted on the "edge" thread does not use adjusted weights (if people would like I can post the excel document with the datapoints there). Adjusted weights aren't too useful at the time either as the vast majority of data is not adjusted, thus best comparisons are done without adjusting the new sample. By reversing the 1993 equation, the Serengeti girth is 101.4 cm and Crater girth 112.3 cm. So dimensionally Crater females are larger. Using the regression figure I posted gives a weight of 129 kg for Serengeti and 154 kg for the Crater. Albeit, the r-sq value is not that good for chest girths (a fit of 0.66 leaves a ways for variability from the prediction and chestier specimens are overestimated by the formula), so using these estimates as basis for comparison with actual weights of other samples would be wrong. In other words, regression should only be relied on for species can no longer be accessed (paleontology). <!----www.cbs.umn.edu/sites/default/files/public/downloads/Hormonal_characteristics_of_free-ranging_female_lions_panthera_leo_of_the_Serengeti_Plains_and_Ngorongoro_Crater.pdf---> copy and paste this url in your browser 
It wont let me see that Doc @tigerluver
I think crater lions will show the same max or minimum than any other lions. When we look at lions from different areas most seem to follow the same trend, Some males are 175kg and others are 225kg+ and these males can and do exist in the same location and even in the same coalition at times. I think the crater would be no different, I would also think the weight range would be there for the males depending on the individual. Since I can't see the female weight range of crater lions, what are they? Maximum to minimum? I'd like to compare them to other lioness and see what I come up with.
Here is the samples of Serengeti Lions
*This image is copyright of its original author https://www.google.com/search?q=lioness+...B473%3B452 So while the Average is 189kg, you see one lion that weighed a massive 260kg and others that obviously weighed much less. So I think it would be pretty safe to assume that Crater lions would be in the same range.
To clarify, the 260 kg male in the source is from Etosha, and the average from Serengeti.
Ok, do we know where the entirity of the Serengeti Lions are?
It says they have 12 indivduals
So I spoke with Anjan Lal about Ngorongo Lions since he was just there and photographed many of them.
Here is what was said Me: I noticed that you recently went and saw lions in the Crater at Ngorongo. I was wondering if you noticed a difference in size between them and lions from the Serengeti? Thanks for your time. 20 hours ago  *This image is copyright of its original author No the lions are the sameIn Africa their size is the same *This image is copyright of its original author But the ones found in India are different in size *This image is copyright of its original author Asiatic lions are a bit smaller and the males have a smaller and darker mane in comparison to their African cousinsMe: Thanks for the info Anjan. That's what I thought as well. Out of curiosity, where are the largest tigers you have seen? In India *This image is copyright of its original author At Tafoba *This image is copyright of its original author You can google WagdohHe's the biggest tiger right now in central India Me  h yes, I know waghdoh well. He's a monsterMe:If you ever go to kaziranga or corbett will you let me know what you think of their size? Heard they are absolutely massive Ok sure *This image is copyright of its original author Thanks for asking
His thoughts seem to be what most of us believe and that is that it really doesn't matter much what location an African Lion is from, they tend to be the same size. Obviously Asiatic are a bit smaller though.
If any one else has question you would like me ask him, let me know. He was quick to answer and seems very nice. As all of the photographers I have spoken too seem to be. 
Craig Packer stated this about crater lions : We don't know their precise weights, just their chest circumference -- and they are the biggest in Africa by that measure.
(05-28-2015, 11:11 PM)'faess' Wrote: Craig Packer stated this about crater lions : We don't know their precise weights, just their chest circumference -- and they are the biggest in Africa by that measure. He didn't state that in the Crater study that I posted right here. Where are the measurements and the statement of this? "Morphologically, the crater lions appear more similar to the Serengeti Lions, males in both populations have fuller manes than the Manyara males and both sexes have shorter faces. The morphological characteristics of the Manyara lions are more similar to the lions from the east of the Rift valley. Although our sample size from the Manyara is very small, genetic data also suggest a greater affinity between the Crater and Serengeti populations. First, the allesl frequencies for two blood enzyme loci in Manyara are very different from either the Crater or Serengeti. All five Manyara lions were homozygous for the TF b allele and the four animals that could be tested for ADA carried the b allele at a frequency of .625 Note however that all five Manyara animals are from a single pride. Second, DNA fingerprinting analysis indicates greater genetic distance between the Crater and Manyara. Within each population, there is a strong positive relationship of kinship of any two individuals and their extent of variable number of tandem repeat (VNTR) "band-sharing" Band-sharing between any two individuals is the total number of DNA fragments showing similar molecular weight and intensisty carried by both individuals. On average, any two members of the Serengeti population that are unrelated to each other share 49% of their VNTR bands and most distantly related members of the Ngorongoro population share 47% Six lions from four different prides in the Ngorongoro Crater were compared with five animals from fiveprides in the Serengeti and two animals from one Manyara lions. Although the genetic, morphological, and demographic data clearly limited, they all consistently indicate that the Crater population is more closely allied to the Serengeti lions, and that immigrants entering the Crater after the Stomoxys' plague were also from the Serengeti." CRAIG PACKER- http://www.cbs.umn.edu/sites/default/fil...ongoro.pdf  *This image is copyright of its original author You should try e-mailing him. He always responds within 30 minutes or so.
(05-28-2015, 11:22 PM)'faess' Wrote: Whats his email address? The only "alleged email" in regards to this was from Brentlon from 2008 that I know of.  *This image is copyright of its original author and that email doesn't work now, to my knowledge and he never says they are the largest, only the upper limit for lions. But the actual published and peer reviewed paper by him, confirmed and proven, he specifically states them to be the morphologically as serengetti lions. I'm obviously skeptical of emails since anyone can write whatever they want. |
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