BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS

[tigerluver]

I can attest to Dr. Packer responding to emails very often. He's very accessible. Reply

[Pckts]

(05-28-2015, 11:39 PM)'faess' Wrote: packer@umn.edu

 

 

I've tried that email and never received any response. Its the same one Benton used.
If any body else wants to give it a try, let us know how it turns out.
Edit: Tigerluver confirming it is enough for me.
But the regression theory used on the chest girth of the 6 lions measured, never actually weighed and gave a rough estimate of 190-225kg and Chest girth isn't the best correlation to body weight I believe.

Peter wrote:
"Regarding Ngorogoro lions. In spite of many decades of research in many regions in Africa and in spite of countless tables with weights, only one Ngorogoro male was actually weighed. It was a young adult, who scaled 146 kg. Very different from the computed average for young adults in the page above (206 kg.). A disappointing result, but there you have it. 

Anything to add? Yes. The regression equation was debated on AVA. Apollyon contacted Packer. The conclusion they got to was the equation was inadequate. More? Yes. I saw a few documentaries in which lions were measured. I noticed that chest girths were not taken in the proper way. They only measured half of the girth, as this meant they didn't have to move the lion. I understand (a male lion is a heavy animal), but I wouldn't get to satisfactory. There's one more thing. Everything I have on wild lions suggests adult males outaverage adult females by about 60-70 kg. Let's assume the average for Ngorogoro females (127 kg.) was right and let's also assume that Ngorogoro lions are big animals. I propose to take 70 kg. as the average difference. That would result in 197 kg. at best. Different from 212 kg. Maybe the relation between chest girth and weight is different in lions, tigers and bears.   

Are Ngorogoro lions smallish animals then? No. One can't exclude they could be heavier than in other regions, but I have doubts. After everything I read, saw and heard, I think lions in South Africa are the largest at the level of averages. The Ngorogoro's could be as heavy, but this would be a result of a large prey base. Not body dimensions. And that's all there is to say about Ngorogoro lions for now, I think."

While 200+ kg is a large lion, many lions from all over have reached that weight. So its not like you are seeing Crater lions bottoming out scales that no other lions from different areas aren't.
Their weights are attainable by other lions from other areas, 225kg for a lion is large, but if that is the largest weight than it fits in with lions measured from other areas. Their max usually hits around 225kg.

And the fact that none have actually been weighed outside of the 146kg male, there really is no way to prove any of it.

So my conclusion is, Crater lions are large lions, if chest girth was a end all sign of body weight I would agree that they are the top tier. But since they are estimates and chest girth is not fool proof when determining weight of lions, I don't think I'm ready to throw in the towel just yet.
190kg-225kg is a large size for lions but if the max is 225kg, I don't think that is the largest lion walking in africa. There are just to many discrepancies between lions in the same area, some larger than 225kg from other areas outside of the crater so by all accounts, they would be larger but those same areas would have smaller lions as well.
It would hold true in the crater as well, imo. Reply

[chaos]

(05-29-2015, 12:00 AM)'Pckts' Wrote:

(05-28-2015, 11:39 PM)'faess' Wrote: packer@umn.edu

 


 

I've tried that email and never received any response. Its the same one Benton used.
If any body else wants to give it a try, let us know how it turns out.
Edit: Tigerluver confirming it is enough for me.
But the regression theory used on the chest girth of the 6 lions measured, never actually weighed and gave a rough estimate of 190-225kg and Chest girth isn't the best correlation to body weight I believe.

Peter wrote:
"Regarding Ngorogoro lions. In spite of many decades of research in many regions in Africa and in spite of countless tables with weights, only one Ngorogoro male was actually weighed. It was a young adult, who scaled 146 kg. Very different from the computed average for young adults in the page above (206 kg.). A disappointing result, but there you have it. 

Anything to add? Yes. The regression equation was debated on AVA. Apollyon contacted Packer. The conclusion they got to was the equation was inadequate. More? Yes. I saw a few documentaries in which lions were measured. I noticed that chest girths were not taken in the proper way. They only measured half of the girth, as this meant they didn't have to move the lion. I understand (a male lion is a heavy animal), but I wouldn't get to satisfactory. There's one more thing. Everything I have on wild lions suggests adult males outaverage adult females by about 60-70 kg. Let's assume the average for Ngorogoro females (127 kg.) was right and let's also assume that Ngorogoro lions are big animals. I propose to take 70 kg. as the average difference. That would result in 197 kg. at best. Different from 212 kg. Maybe the relation between chest girth and weight is different in lions, tigers and bears.   

Are Ngorogoro lions smallish animals then? No. One can't exclude they could be heavier than in other regions, but I have doubts. After everything I read, saw and heard, I think lions in South Africa are the largest at the level of averages. The Ngorogoro's could be as heavy, but this would be a result of a large prey base. Not body dimensions. And that's all there is to say about Ngorogoro lions for now, I think."

While 200+ kg is a large lion, many lions from all over have reached that weight. So its not like you are seeing Crater lions bottoming out scales that no other lions from different areas aren't.
Their weights are attainable by other lions from other areas, 225kg for a lion is large, but if that is the largest weight than it fits in with lions measured from other areas. Their max usually hits around 225kg.

And the fact that none have actually been weighed outside of the 146kg male, there really is no way to prove any of it.

So my conclusion is, Crater lions are large lions, if chest girth was a end all sign of body weight I would agree that they are the top tier. But since they are estimates and chest girth is not fool proof when determining weight of lions, I don't think I'm ready to throw in the towel just yet.
190kg-225kg is a large size for lions but if the max is 225kg, I don't think that is the largest lion walking in africa. There are just to many discrepancies between lions in the same area, some larger than 225kg from other areas outside of the crater so by all accounts, they would be larger but those same areas would have smaller lions as well.
It would hold true in the crater as well, imo.

 

The 146 kg lion was not a crater lion. This was discussed previously. He was from the Ngorgora conservation area, not the crater itself.

  Reply

[Pckts]

(05-29-2015, 12:25 AM)'chaos' Wrote:

(05-29-2015, 12:00 AM)'Pckts' Wrote:

(05-28-2015, 11:39 PM)'faess' Wrote: packer@umn.edu

 



 

I've tried that email and never received any response. Its the same one Benton used.
If any body else wants to give it a try, let us know how it turns out.
Edit: Tigerluver confirming it is enough for me.
But the regression theory used on the chest girth of the 6 lions measured, never actually weighed and gave a rough estimate of 190-225kg and Chest girth isn't the best correlation to body weight I believe.

Peter wrote:
"Regarding Ngorogoro lions. In spite of many decades of research in many regions in Africa and in spite of countless tables with weights, only one Ngorogoro male was actually weighed. It was a young adult, who scaled 146 kg. Very different from the computed average for young adults in the page above (206 kg.). A disappointing result, but there you have it. 

Anything to add? Yes. The regression equation was debated on AVA. Apollyon contacted Packer. The conclusion they got to was the equation was inadequate. More? Yes. I saw a few documentaries in which lions were measured. I noticed that chest girths were not taken in the proper way. They only measured half of the girth, as this meant they didn't have to move the lion. I understand (a male lion is a heavy animal), but I wouldn't get to satisfactory. There's one more thing. Everything I have on wild lions suggests adult males outaverage adult females by about 60-70 kg. Let's assume the average for Ngorogoro females (127 kg.) was right and let's also assume that Ngorogoro lions are big animals. I propose to take 70 kg. as the average difference. That would result in 197 kg. at best. Different from 212 kg. Maybe the relation between chest girth and weight is different in lions, tigers and bears.   

Are Ngorogoro lions smallish animals then? No. One can't exclude they could be heavier than in other regions, but I have doubts. After everything I read, saw and heard, I think lions in South Africa are the largest at the level of averages. The Ngorogoro's could be as heavy, but this would be a result of a large prey base. Not body dimensions. And that's all there is to say about Ngorogoro lions for now, I think."

While 200+ kg is a large lion, many lions from all over have reached that weight. So its not like you are seeing Crater lions bottoming out scales that no other lions from different areas aren't.
Their weights are attainable by other lions from other areas, 225kg for a lion is large, but if that is the largest weight than it fits in with lions measured from other areas. Their max usually hits around 225kg.

And the fact that none have actually been weighed outside of the 146kg male, there really is no way to prove any of it.

So my conclusion is, Crater lions are large lions, if chest girth was a end all sign of body weight I would agree that they are the top tier. But since they are estimates and chest girth is not fool proof when determining weight of lions, I don't think I'm ready to throw in the towel just yet.
190kg-225kg is a large size for lions but if the max is 225kg, I don't think that is the largest lion walking in africa. There are just to many discrepancies between lions in the same area, some larger than 225kg from other areas outside of the crater so by all accounts, they would be larger but those same areas would have smaller lions as well.
It would hold true in the crater as well, imo.


 

The 146 kg lion was not a crater lion. This was discussed previously. He was from the Ngorgora conservation area, not the crater itself.

 

 

Correct, so then there is no single lion weight verified at all from the crater. An estimate of 200kg average n=6 is fine more or less, but its basically worthless until actual weights, shoulder heights, body length are anything else is published.
 
I emailed Packer, I'll let you know if/when I hear back. Reply

[Pantherinae]

I actually think that it's unlikely that any lion populations weights 212 kg. (except okavango lions, I would not be surprised if they where) 
some lions are small some average and some huge! it's very much difference between induvidual lions, just look at lions in Sabi sands, you have belly hair who's enormous and average majingilanes. and some small males running arround in the reserve. Notch boys are huge all I would guess are over 200 kg and Caesar is probably in 225 kg++  rage. and some lions in masai mara is very small, not even much bigger than their femals (I have seen those lions my self). 

some one is born with good genes and are just huge! and for some it all comes down to prey densety, like the Notches kill's hippos, buffalo and eland all the time while others in the reserves don't and reatches a much smaller size. ofcourse the notch boys does have good genes, but their ability to hunt large prey has made it easier to build up, and keep hold on and take over the best territories.  

so no I don't think any lion population is as big as any tiger populations, but I think both spicies maximum weights are very close. Reply

[Pckts]

Here is my questions to Packer and his response 

Me:"Hi Mr. Packer, a few of us on a big cat forum are having a debate in regards to Ngorongo Crater lions compared to Serengeti Lions regarding size.
 Since you have seen both and weighed them, I was curious your take. 
 -Visually, do you notice a difference between them in regards to Body lenght, Height or Robustness?
 -Verified Measurements?
 I have read that Crater lions had a larger chest girth than other lions but I have not been able to find published measurements of these Chest Girth to compare to others. From what I have seen the best correlation for Lion or Tiger weight is body length, but obviously if a lion is similar length and height, than a larger chest girth will equal a larger cat.   My question is if you measured them and how they compare to each other according to you, and what you would estimate their weights to be.
 Serengeti LIon ?vNgorongo Crater Lion?
 Thanks sir, your time is appreciated. Regards,"

His Response

*This image is copyright of its original author

Craig Packer5:58 AM (1 hour ago)

*This image is copyright of its original author

 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

to me

*This image is copyright of its original author

    "All I can say is that the Ngorongoro lions are 10-20% bigger than the Serengeti lions - but Serengeti lions are quite small compared to South African lions  As far as I know, the Crater lions are the largest of all -- but I have no idea what that mean in terms of bodyweight"





Interesting to read, since Crater and Serengetti lion are the same in terms of individual, it really makes you wonder what the weight difference is between the two and what does a richer food bank mean for size.

I'll ask if he has seen Okavango Lions.

I wonder if Crater lions are given enough time the way Kaziranga Tigers have been, will you start to see slight differences in appearance like you do in Kaziranga Tigers, like in their Skulls for instance. 

 Edit: I asked about the Okavango Lions, Notch, Matimbas and Majingilanes just because we are discussing them atm.
I'll let you know what he says.

I'm not sure what he means with his response when saying the "largest of all"
Im not sure if he is saying Chest Girth or Body size.
Does any body know the measurements of chest girth and mass of S. African Lions we can compare to see if this holds true? Reply

[chaos]

(05-29-2015, 07:53 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: Here is my questions to Packer and his response 

Me:"Hi Mr. Packer, a few of us on a big cat forum are having a debate in regards to Ngorongo Crater lions compared to Serengeti Lions regarding size.
 Since you have seen both and weighed them, I was curious your take. 
 -Visually, do you notice a difference between them in regards to Body lenght, Height or Robustness?
 -Verified Measurements?
 I have read that Crater lions had a larger chest girth than other lions but I have not been able to find published measurements of these Chest Girth to compare to others. From what I have seen the best correlation for Lion or Tiger weight is body length, but obviously if a lion is similar length and height, than a larger chest girth will equal a larger cat.   My question is if you measured them and how they compare to each other according to you, and what you would estimate their weights to be.
 Serengeti LIon ?vNgorongo Crater Lion?
 Thanks sir, your time is appreciated. Regards,"

His Response

*This image is copyright of its original author

Craig Packer5:58 AM (1 hour ago)

*This image is copyright of its original author

 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

to me

*This image is copyright of its original author

    "All I can say is that the Ngorongoro lions are 10-20% bigger than the Serengeti lions - but Serengeti lions are quite small compared to South African lions  As far as I know, the Crater lions are the largest of all -- but I have no idea what that mean in terms of bodyweight"





Interesting to read, since Crater and Serengetti lion are the same in terms of individual, it really makes you wonder what the weight difference is between the two and what does a richer food bank mean for size.

I'll ask if he has seen Okavango Lions.

I wonder if Crater lions are given enough time the way Kaziranga Tigers have been, will you start to see slight differences in appearance like you do in Kaziranga Tigers, like in their Skulls for instance. 

 Edit: I asked about the Okavango Lions, Notch, Matimbas and Majingilanes just because we are discussing them atm.
I'll let you know what he says.

I'm not sure what he means with his response when saying the "largest of all"
Im not sure if he is saying Chest Girth or Body size.
Does any body know the measurements of chest girth and mass of S. African Lions we can compare to see if this holds true?

 

10 - 20% is a significant size difference. Thanks for making the  inquiry and posting the results.
  Reply

[chaos]

The size difference is obviously attributable to food intake, as I believe craters are just a bulked up version
of the serengeti lion. Reply

[Pckts]

(05-29-2015, 08:13 PM)'chaos' Wrote: The size difference is obviously attributable to food intake, as I believe craters are just a bulked up version
of the serengeti lion.

 

I wonder if the 10%-20% mark should be used when sizing the difference between average specimens and specimens from areas that produce larger predators. 

It would help us estimate Kaziranga Tiger or Crater Lion weights. Not scientific but at least a good jumping off point

  Reply

[Pantherinae]

@Pckts I have asked about the Okavango lions before! He needed measurements before he would make any estimates.  Reply

[chaos]

It appears even the pre-eminent source on wild African lions lacks any specific data on craters.
Although, his response does help clarify that, yes, craters are larger than Serengeti lions. If
the average Serengeti male is 180+ kg's, then the initial estimate of 212 kg's for craters is
"generally" in line with Packers claim. Hopefully, the near future holds the answer to the
burning questions many of us big cat enthusiasts seek, for both lions and tigers.

  Reply

[Pckts]

(05-30-2015, 07:28 PM)'chaos' Wrote: It appears even the pre-eminent source on wild African lions lacks any specific data on craters.
Although, his response does help clarify that, yes, craters are larger than Serengeti lions. If
the average Serengeti male is 180+ kg's, then the initial estimate of 212 kg's for craters is
"generally" in line with Packers claim. Hopefully, the near future holds the answer to the
burning questions many of us big cat enthusiasts seek, for both lions and tigers.

 

 

You need real data before you can make that claim, eye witness is nice but not debate sealing. The eyes can be misleading and certainly not the end all be all.
To be clear, anjan stated they were no larger than any other lions so that is really 1 for and 1 against for their size. While packer is obviously the more reliable eye witness, he wasn't willing to make a claim about weight and it wasn't clear if he is simply speaking about chest girth difference or body weight difference and chest girth isn't always the best correlation to total body mass.
So saying 212kg average is nice but certainly not scientific.

No response on the follow up questions as of yet. I'll keep the forum updated if/when I receive any info. Reply

[Pckts]

(05-29-2015, 03:34 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: I actually think that it's unlikely that any lion populations weights 212 kg. (except okavango lions, I would not be surprised if they where) 
some lions are small some average and some huge! it's very much difference between induvidual lions, just look at lions in Sabi sands, you have belly hair who's enormous and average majingilanes. and some small males running arround in the reserve. Notch boys are huge all I would guess are over 200 kg and Caesar is probably in 225 kg++  rage. and some lions in masai mara is very small, not even much bigger than their femals (I have seen those lions my self). 

some one is born with good genes and are just huge! and for some it all comes down to prey densety, like the Notches kill's hippos, buffalo and eland all the time while others in the reserves don't and reatches a much smaller size. ofcourse the notch boys does have good genes, but their ability to hunt large prey has made it easier to build up, and keep hold on and take over the best territories.  

so no I don't think any lion population is as big as any tiger populations, but I think both spicies maximum weights are very close.

 

Close, but no cigar [img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Usually see the same difference between maximums or averages, USUALLY
15kg-30kg difference seems pretty fair outside of the exceptional ones.

When describing a 200+ kg animal, 15kg-30kg difference can be considered "close" but it can also be considered "major" depending on how you want to interpret it.

  Reply

[chaos]

(05-30-2015, 11:03 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:

(05-30-2015, 07:28 PM)'chaos' Wrote: It appears even the pre-eminent source on wild African lions lacks any specific data on craters.
Although, his response does help clarify that, yes, craters are larger than Serengeti lions. If
the average Serengeti male is 180+ kg's, then the initial estimate of 212 kg's for craters is
"generally" in line with Packers claim. Hopefully, the near future holds the answer to the
burning questions many of us big cat enthusiasts seek, for both lions and tigers.

 


 

You need real data before you can make that claim, eye witness is nice but not debate sealing. The eyes can be misleading and certainly not the end all be all.
To be clear, anjan stated they were no larger than any other lions so that is really 1 for and 1 against for their size. While packer is obviously the more reliable eye witness, he wasn't willing to make a claim about weight and it wasn't clear if he is simply speaking about chest girth difference or body weight difference and chest girth isn't always the best correlation to total body mass.
So saying 212kg average is nice but certainly not scientific.

No response on the follow up questions as of yet. I'll keep the forum updated if/when I receive any info.

 

Craig Packer is an authority you, yourself have referenced many a time. His opinions and/or claims carry considerable weight.
If he says Craters are larger than Serengeti's, if not all lions, I'm inclined to believe him. Its surprising though, the lack of verified
data on Craters and Kaz tigers. Until we get some accurate data, its still all conjecture. Reply

[GuateGojira]

Dr Craig Packer is the top expert on lions behavior and ecology, but it seems that he missed the measurements department for reasons that I don't understand. I have a set of new body measurements of lions in the Serengeti published in a resent book (2013; 12 males and 38 females), but when I asked him the way that he measured them (straight or over curves), he said that he don't knew about those measurements because he only take chest girth and no lengths. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

I excluded the sample of lions from the Selous GR (also in Tanzania) because it is too away from the Serengeti landscape.

I guess, and is only "my guess", that the average of the Crater lions is similar to those of the Southern African lions, which is about 190-202 kg, depending of the sample, region and date.
  Reply