There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(04-25-2020, 02:11 AM)Amnon242 Wrote: "The tiger lowers its head and sticks to the ground which is typical submissive behavior. " No, submission is different, much different. See that picture with body postures above. When tiger flattes body to the ground, he is on alert, awaiting an attack. Which makes sense in context of the situation. And when he finally lies on the ground, his message is "leave me alone". But the lion did not respect that, so the tiger chased him away...so what submission?
Ok I'm not gonna start another lion vs tiger endless back and forth on here.
But lowering the head and sticking to the ground is classical submissive behavior, the tiger is not looking to attack otherwise it would be standing up with its shoulders high and his head straight to accept the challenge. The lion in that video also has a problem with his hind legs and even with that, it fended off nicely in standing position against the tiger. That is my conclusion about that video.
Not always, especially in a Tigers case.
Here you see both Umarpani and Jamuntoli sticking close to the ground before fighting.
That video actually solidified my point, the larger tiger is clearly dominant over the other one, they both stand in a neutral position in the ground before the tigress gets close to the larger one (which I'm guessing is Umarpani) and his instincts drive him to fight the other male that is lying on the ground submissive. The smaller male never initiates the fight from its lying down position, he only does it to defend himself.
After the altercation the male that was already submissive returns to its position by sticking to the ground showing a clear power dynamic between the two.
You're actually wrong, Umarpani is the one who is laying down the whole time and he is also the larger tiger and won the fight. Jamuntola wasn't seen in Mukki after that while Umarpani was and fought with T50, an even larger tiger than he shortly after this incident.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Infact that fight lasted almost 2 days on and off as well, showing the body position you claim to read is deceiving and neither was giving up any time soon.
I don't follow these tigers so not knowing their names is irrelevant here. On that clip you showed Umarpani was submissive, tigers will fight for days but one will have the upper hand over the other. Based on that specific clip we can see one tiger submit to another based on their body language, the whole outcome of the fight is a different story and not what I'm arguing here.
Umarpani throws him on the ground in this encounter, both size each other up then sit back down.
There is no submission, no rolling over to a defensive position.
Exactly, there is no sumbission here. That position obviously does not mean "I give up, please dont hurt me" ... it means "let me be" - this is not what I understand by the term "submission". That tiger is not leaving the place, not giving up the competition for the female. In this case the submission will be expressed by leaving the place.
It seems that according to some people the one who attacks is the dominant one, while the one who defends himself is the submissive one...which is not true.
BTW I have a book about trainer (tigers, lions, jaguars, leopards) and I remember how he wrote about a jaguar who was not afraid of tigers and lions who liked to attack him. He wrote that the jaguar always crouched to the ground in anticipation of the attack and then defended himself furiously. The book is quite interesting, its in Czech...perhaps I will translate some parts of it and post it here...
The more Jaguar stories the better in my book.
I look forward to it if you decide to translate.
BODY LANGUAGE AS A TOOL TO COMMUNICATE
