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Shadow · 04-18-2019, 05:40 PM

(04-18-2019, 05:16 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-18-2019, 04:46 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(04-18-2019, 03:28 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-18-2019, 11:49 AM)Rishi Wrote:
(04-18-2019, 09:56 AM)Shadow Wrote: One good case here to remember is that from Ankara zoo, where a tiger managed to get a lucky shot and kill a lion with swipe of paw as far as zoo personnel told and can be believed. So it was separated from lion but cold swipe with paw from between the bars and managed to hit and cut open jugular vein causing that lion to die. So there was no "death grip" from throat or back of neck. Just one very lucky tiger like some lottery winner and one very unlucky lion. These animals are after all flesh and blood, sometimes they can take unbelievable beating and survive, sometimes then not, one wound in wrong place and bye bye tiger or lion or bear. Anyway there are many ways to get killed by another animal and if some animal dies to massive bleeding caused by another, then it is usually said, that it was killed by that another animal. Of course it can be said, that it died to injuries caused by another animal if that sounds better.

That's irrelevant here. A big male sloth bear flailing away its 5 inches to writhe out of a tiger's grapple can cause serious injuries. There were several in this case.

(04-18-2019, 11:12 AM)Rage2277 Wrote: ...also while sloth bear claws are long and strong they're not designed to grip and tear flesh like cat claws,they do more damage with their teeth as could be seen with the matkasur and bear fight where matkasur sustained puncture wounds on his arms and chest area no visible claw marks i can recall

No. That statement is just plain wrong!

Look up images of sloth bear attack survivors (mostly maulings) & see what type of claw wounds they can cause.
Matkasur got out of it with surprisingly mild damage... i don't know how, but don't expect it to always be the case.

Their claws are definitely not designed to rip and hook the way a big cats are, this is without question. Human skin isn't comparable to animal flesh, we have 0 protection.
Just watch the Tiger Canyon fight where the tigers are interlocked while their back claws Rip into each others stomach, you can even hear it and still they are unable to penetrate the skin, imagine the same thing happening to human being, what do you think the result would be.

In regards to Matkasur, he was never in danger, all bites or claws were defensive by the bear until the end when Matkasur tires and decides to disengage, but compare the wounds sustained to the bear to matkasur and it's not even close, the bear is bloody all along the face, neck and chest and lucky to be alive tbh. The tenacity of the bear and Matkasur inability to inflict a killing bite is what saved the bear but that's not always the case as bears fall victim to Tigers fairly regularly while the other way around is almost unheard. Just compare two situations, Matkasur is unable to kill a mother sloth bear protecting her young while the original KG Male of Kanha killed a mother sloth bear protecting her young in a matter of seconds, it just depends on the cat.

This is quite off topic from the news article though, and if a team of vets come to the conclusion that a large carnivore killed the tiger, the cat had puncture wounds and that is all, nothing about a sloth bear being the culprit, then to claim any animal besides another Tiger killed it is nothing more than a attention grabber but finding a cat days after it's been killed, then setting up camera traps which would take time to get then after all that you see a sloth bear within 150 meters is hardly a "smoking gun."

"But the bear had scratches"
Bears have scars all over their face, I didnt see a sloth bear that didnt have some damage, and they walk very gingerly regardless, they are an awkward animal.
So to assume that a bear is the culprit because it's near a watering hole that is frequented not only by bears, but other tigers and any other animal India has to offer.

"But they didnt find tiger pugmarks"
They didnt find bear pugmarks either, the Tiger was found in the water so it must of gotten their somehow and searching for pugmarks in the forest is impossible unless you see them on the dirt tracks or in a wet/muddy area where the print can be sustained and even then they're very difficult to see.

I know exhaustion or blood loss can kill a cat and that is possible, Its not being ruled out but according to the autopsy that wasn't the cause of the death so that's all we can go off of.

Lastly is the wound location... which animal between the 2 is notorious for attacking the head and neck region with their large canines?

I'll leave my opinion at that and wait for more news, then go from there.
This is a good example how differently some situation can be seen. But what comes to tigers they get wounds as any other animals. Bears can injure them, that is clear :) This was interesting case for many reasons even thoughts tigers tend to rise passions
Absolutely, there are no rules in the wild.
But that's not what this is about, it's possible a sloth bear could kill a tiger. But this istance isn't something you could use as a scientific example for that, this is an unsolved case atm.

Yes, I don´t think that they use too much time to investigate this further. After all main issue is to rule out poaching and other human caused reasons. After those reasons are ruled out it isn´t so important anymore to use too much resources to get 100% certainty which animal caused injuries. But we will see if something else comes up or not. But maybe the case is there, not likely that after 4-5 days something new would come up anymore.

Spalea · 04-18-2019, 06:16 PM

@Pckts :

About #296: OK, I was too inflluenced by the fight between the tiger called Matkasur (#277) and this sloth bear. Usually the tiger wins, almost without any doubt, and if an ursid survives it is a very lucky one.

Pckts · 04-18-2019, 06:25 PM

(04-18-2019, 06:16 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Pckts :

About #296: OK, I was too inflluenced by the fight between the tiger called Matkasur (#277) and this sloth bear. Usually the tiger wins, almost without any doubt, and if an ursid survives it is a very lucky one.

I don't think that's the case either.
Bears are no easy target, especially a Big Male .
My skepticism isn't solely based off a Tiger v. Sloth Bear but more so with this particular case.

Shadow · 04-18-2019, 07:36 PM

(04-18-2019, 06:16 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Pckts :

About #296: OK, I was too inflluenced by the fight between the tiger called Matkasur (#277) and this sloth bear. Usually the tiger wins, almost without any doubt, and if an ursid survives it is a very lucky one.

Isn´t that Matkasur case that female sloth bear? Males can be about 130-150 kg and really big ones closer to 200 kg. And in this case that which was seen was said to be a huge male sloth bear. So it is quite different thing if male tiger confronts a female bear maybe 1/3-1/2 of size of a male tiger or if it confronts a male bear approximately same size as itself. Tiger is of course favorite in all cases against sloth bear, but that naturally doesn´t mean, that it couldn´t get killed against odds, both of these animals are dangerous, not only tiger :)

Spalea · 04-18-2019, 08:05 PM

(04-18-2019, 07:36 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(04-18-2019, 06:16 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Pckts :

About #296: OK, I was too inflluenced by the fight between the tiger called Matkasur (#277) and this sloth bear. Usually the tiger wins, almost without any doubt, and if an ursid survives it is a very lucky one.

Isn´t that Matkasur case that female sloth bear? Males can be about 130-150 kg and really big ones closer to 200 kg. And in this case that which was seen was said to be a huge male sloth bear. So it is quite different thing if male tiger confronts a female bear maybe 1/3-1/2 of size of a male tiger or if it confronts a male bear approximately same size as itself. Tiger is of course favorite in all cases against sloth bear, but that naturally doesn´t mean, that it couldn´t get killed against odds, both of these animals are dangerous, not only tiger :)

I don't follow as well as you such particular tigers like Matkasur, and perhaps cannot exactly determine who is who among male tigers. And I don't speak about sloth bears... As @Pckts tells bears are very tough opponents, especially males. The fact I noticed before, the sloth bear able to sleep on the ground in a place also inhabited by the tiger shows, IMO, an animal enough confident toward its strength.
As @Wolverine said the previous year , 03-11-2018 ( https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-sloth-b...s#pid52239 ), the sloth bear couldn't inhabit and sleep this way with Gir lions, because the lions living and patrolling in group would have more easily the upper hand against a lone sloth bear. If the sloth bear is able to coexist with tigers and this without disapearing from the place, that shows enough well the sloth bears's value as potential fighter.
This doesn't exclude the possibility of a fight if the tiger is clearly decided to kill an ursid. As everywhere else...

Shadow · 04-18-2019, 08:20 PM

(04-18-2019, 08:05 PM)Spalea Wrote:
(04-18-2019, 07:36 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(04-18-2019, 06:16 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Pckts :

About #296: OK, I was too inflluenced by the fight between the tiger called Matkasur (#277) and this sloth bear. Usually the tiger wins, almost without any doubt, and if an ursid survives it is a very lucky one.

Isn´t that Matkasur case that female sloth bear? Males can be about 130-150 kg and really big ones closer to 200 kg. And in this case that which was seen was said to be a huge male sloth bear. So it is quite different thing if male tiger confronts a female bear maybe 1/3-1/2 of size of a male tiger or if it confronts a male bear approximately same size as itself. Tiger is of course favorite in all cases against sloth bear, but that naturally doesn´t mean, that it couldn´t get killed against odds, both of these animals are dangerous, not only tiger :)

I don't follow as well as you such particular tigers like Matkasur, and perhaps cannot exactly determine who is who among male tigers. And I don't speak about sloth bears... As @Pckts tells bears are very tough opponents, especially males. The fact I noticed before, the sloth bear able to sleep on the ground in a place also inhabited by the tiger shows, IMO, an animal enough confident toward its strength.
As @Wolverine said the previous year , 03-11-2018 ( https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-sloth-b...s#pid52239 ), the sloth bear couldn't inhabit and sleep this way with Gir lions, because the lions living and patrolling in group would have more easily the upper hand against a lone sloth bear. If the sloth bear is able to coexist with tigers and this without disapearing from the place, that shows enough well the sloth bears's value as potential fighter.
This doesn't exclude the possibility of a fight if the tiger is clearly decided to kill an ursid. As everywhere else...

Heh, I don´t follow individual tigers at all :) But I think, that only real fight which is recorded between a tiger and sloth bear is that case, where mother bear was fighting that tiger and when I checked that posting you mentioned, it was the same. So that footage isn´t the best example what it can be, when there is more equal opponent for a tiger what comes to size, weight and strength. That is why I am not so surprised about this kind of incident in a way, that I would see there something extraordinary. I don´t go to guess percentages, but these animals have been coexisting in India for ages. There have to be many many sloth bears eaten by tigers, but I am also 100% sure, that every now and then some tigers have made their last mistake when choosing to attack a sloth bear. Even though sloth bears look like quite funny time to time Grin

Diamir2 · 04-18-2019, 09:31 PM

(04-18-2019, 06:25 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-18-2019, 06:16 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Pckts :

About #296: OK, I was too inflluenced by the fight between the tiger called Matkasur (#277) and this sloth bear. Usually the tiger wins, almost without any doubt, and if an ursid survives it is a very lucky one.

I don't think that's the case either.
Bears are no easy target, especially a Big Male .
My skepticism isn't solely based off a Tiger v. Sloth Bear but more so with this particular case.

Sloth bear is harmless to the adult tiger, but the thick coat well protects it from tiger claws and teeth.

Pckts · 04-18-2019, 09:49 PM

(04-18-2019, 09:31 PM)Diamir2 Wrote:
(04-18-2019, 06:25 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-18-2019, 06:16 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Pckts :

About #296: OK, I was too inflluenced by the fight between the tiger called Matkasur (#277) and this sloth bear. Usually the tiger wins, almost without any doubt, and if an ursid survives it is a very lucky one.

I don't think that's the case either.
Bears are no easy target, especially a Big Male .
My skepticism isn't solely based off a Tiger v. Sloth Bear but more so with this particular case.

Sloth bear is harmless to the adult tiger, but the thick coat well protects it from tiger claws and teeth.

Any animal that can withstand a full frontal attack from an adult Tiger while inflicting some damage of it's own, even defensively is hardly harmless in my book.

The thick coat hides wounds from the naked eye more than protecting from injury, it also hides vitals.
But as you can clearly see

*This image is copyright of its original author

The Bear is bloodied up.

Diamir2 · 04-18-2019, 10:14 PM

"The only thing that saves the bear is the hair on the body, because tiger doesn't get a grip," Dr Andheria explains.

Shadow · 04-18-2019, 10:26 PM

Here some links just to remind what can happen when bear swipes with claws or gets a good hold on prey and uses claws to maul victim. If you watch videos where bears fight with each others, in some you can see how tufts of fur are flying in the air while they claw each others.

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-usa-alaska-katmai-natl-park-back-of-grizzly-bear-ursus-arctos-covered-11939912.html

https://general.digitalassetmanagement.site/edit

https://www.kaleva.fi/uutiset/pohjois-suomi/karhu-raateli-hevosta-suomussalmella/274416/

https://www.iltalehti.fi/kotimaa/a/201805292200976135

https://www.mtvuutiset.fi/artikkeli/karhuemo-pentuineen-raateli-hevosta-pahasti-loppukesalta-meidan-kisat-ohitse/5208658

http://luopioistenkasvisto.fi/blogi/?p=489

Shadow · 04-18-2019, 10:30 PM

(04-18-2019, 10:14 PM)Diamir2 Wrote:

"The only thing that saves the bear is the hair on the body, because tiger doesn't get a grip," Dr Andheria explains.

That is small female bear. So Dr Andheria is for sure right. Big male bear can be about twice as big. We are all adults here, aren´t we? Wink

Sloth bear is not a favorite against a tiger, we all know that. But then again it is one thing to fight against... let´s say a 70 kg female than it is, if opponent is 140-190 kg male. Or do you maybe disagree and see no difference?

Diamir2 · 04-19-2019, 01:56 AM

(04-18-2019, 10:30 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(04-18-2019, 10:14 PM)Diamir2 Wrote:

"The only thing that saves the bear is the hair on the body, because tiger doesn't get a grip," Dr Andheria explains.

That is small female bear. So Dr Andheria is for sure right. Big male bear can be about twice as big. We are all adults here, aren´t we? Sloth bear is not a favorite against a tiger, we all know that. But then again it is one thing to fight against... let´s say a 70 kg female than it is, if opponent is 140-190 kg male. Or do you maybe disagree and see no difference?

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Less than 1 minute ago

(3 hours ago)Shadow Wrote: Wrote:
(3 hours ago)Diamir2 Wrote: Wrote:"The only thing that saves the bear is the hair on the body, because tiger doesn't get a grip," Dr Andheria explains.

That is small female bear. So Dr Andheria is for sure right. Big male bear can be about twice as big. We are all adults here, aren´t we? Sloth bear is not a favorite against a tiger, we all know that. But then again it is one thing to fight against... let´s say a 70 kg female than it is, if opponent is 140-190 kg male. Or do you maybe disagree and see no difference?

It was big female bear,to kill a big bear of course a tiger would be harder than a female bear.
not a single case of a serious wounded even a young tiger in a fight with a sloth bear
Sloth bears are afraid and avoid tigers

Diamir2 · 04-19-2019, 02:08 AM

*This image is copyright of its original author

Wolverine · 04-19-2019, 02:42 AM

(04-18-2019, 07:25 AM)Rage2277 Wrote: sloth bears aren't grizzlies or polars which are way stronger than any big cat big male sloth bears would have trouble killing a leopard despite being more powerful let alone a tiger

Its really hard to believe that sloth bear who is 2,3 times smaller than brown bear could kill a tiger, probably this is the first such a case described. But the nature of tiger's injuries and especially the fact that one of the tiger's eyes was thorn out shows that the aggressor could be really a sloth bear. Attacking the head and especially the eyes of the enemy is the trademark of sloth bears. In 95% of all human victims the eyes and face are almost completely destroyed:

*This image is copyright of its original author

True, despite his long claws the teeth of sloth bear are not so big an its hard to believe that they can cause a deadly injury to tiger unless the bear is very lucky:

*This image is copyright of its original author

We have to take into account that unlike brown bears who due to long winter hybernation gather a lot of fat and the fat of brown bear consist up to 1/3 of its body weight, the body of sloth bear as a non-hibernating purely tropical animal consist almost entirely of muscles. If an average male sloth bear weights ar. 120 kg, a huge male with body mass of 150-160 kg is egual in muscle mass and rough power to 200 kg brown bear during the fall.
Nevertheless such an event should be something really exceptional, its hard to believe it, but in nature everything is possible.

Shadow · 04-19-2019, 03:05 AM

(04-19-2019, 01:56 AM)Diamir2 Wrote:
(04-18-2019, 10:30 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(04-18-2019, 10:14 PM)Diamir2 Wrote:

"The only thing that saves the bear is the hair on the body, because tiger doesn't get a grip," Dr Andheria explains.

That is small female bear. So Dr Andheria is for sure right. Big male bear can be about twice as big. We are all adults here, aren´t we? Sloth bear is not a favorite against a tiger, we all know that. But then again it is one thing to fight against... let´s say a 70 kg female than it is, if opponent is 140-190 kg male. Or do you maybe disagree and see no difference?

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Less than 1 minute ago

(3 hours ago)Shadow Wrote: Wrote:
(3 hours ago)Diamir2 Wrote: Wrote:"The only thing that saves the bear is the hair on the body, because tiger doesn't get a grip," Dr Andheria explains.

That is small female bear. So Dr Andheria is for sure right. Big male bear can be about twice as big. We are all adults here, aren´t we? Sloth bear is not a favorite against a tiger, we all know that. But then again it is one thing to fight against... let´s say a 70 kg female than it is, if opponent is 140-190 kg male. Or do you maybe disagree and see no difference?

It was big female bear,to kill a big bear of course a tiger would be harder than a female bear.
not a single case of a serious wounded even a young tiger in a fight with a sloth bear
Sloth bears are afraid and avoid tigers

When attacked, sloth bear as any animal fights for it´s life. In such case it doesn´t matter if it is afraid or not, it fights. That is the point in case like this and in such situation also tiger can get killed. Tiger is not invulnerable creature and sloth bear is able to fight in fierce way if ambush attack goes wrong :) Huge male for sure has a chance to injure tiger badly and I am not the only one thinking like this. Some people have said same in some books too :) I mean that sloth bears have dangerous claws and even tigers can back off to avoid injury :)

So yes, tiger is in normal case the hunter, but not without a risk. And this case, which started this discussion for me is a good example about situation, when it looks like to be so, that tiger payed this time ultimate price. But as said, that is my opinion and there are other opinions. But those videos you share... I don´t know what you try to show with them, I and most people here have seen all of those many times :)

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