There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(11-20-2019, 04:14 PM)Shadow Wrote: Nice find, that´s maybe the most impressive show of strength I´ve ever seen from big predators. That looked like to be intact carcass.
I don´t take that account seriously what comes to that gaur carcass, tiger and 13 men. There are many videos what comes to tiger dragging carcasses and in none they have showed ability to drag huge carcasses in the way like some old descriptions claim. Of course if wet grass and tiger drags something downhill, it might be difficult to drag that back uphill...
In these things, what comes to animal strength I choose to believe what can be seen in countless video clips. And this performance by this bear was quite something. It practically lifted over half of that carcass and especially heavier part off the ground before it was turned. I´ve seen big cats to turn over carcasses, but never that big. And not in that way as this bear did. It didn´t just roll it over as I´ve seen some lions do.
Just out of curiosity, how many videos have you actually seen of Tigers dragging Gaur or Buffaloes?
The young male in Kanha drags a Gaur Cow fairly easy.
Quite many, and none gives that kind of impression as that old description. Here for instance moose are hunted every year and dragged in the woods. And I don´t think, that any tiger would do better based on the video clips.
I mean, if 13 men can´t drag 500-700 kg, then we are talking about very small men who have no idea what they are doing :) And if we have a 1000 kg carcass, then I would love to see a video in which tiger tries to drag it even one meter. Unless in some very wet surface making it slide very easily. But then 13 men should be able to drag it too. That old account is just not something I can take seriously no matter how I try to imagine it :)
Quite many of Tigers dragging Gaur or Buffalo?
I doubt there is even a handful available to review.
I can post videos of Grizzlies unable to budge Bison as well, claims of dragging moose into the woods will be dependent on the size of the Moose same with a Gaur.
11-20-2019, 08:20 PM( This post was last modified: 11-20-2019, 08:50 PM by Shadow )
(11-20-2019, 08:13 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-20-2019, 07:56 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-20-2019, 07:37 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-20-2019, 06:50 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-20-2019, 05:26 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:
(11-20-2019, 04:14 PM)Shadow Wrote: Nice find, that´s maybe the most impressive show of strength I´ve ever seen from big predators. That looked like to be intact carcass.
I don´t take that account seriously what comes to that gaur carcass, tiger and 13 men. There are many videos what comes to tiger dragging carcasses and in none they have showed ability to drag huge carcasses in the way like some old descriptions claim. Of course if wet grass and tiger drags something downhill, it might be difficult to drag that back uphill...
In these things, what comes to animal strength I choose to believe what can be seen in countless video clips. And this performance by this bear was quite something. It practically lifted over half of that carcass and especially heavier part off the ground before it was turned. I´ve seen big cats to turn over carcasses, but never that big. And not in that way as this bear did. It didn´t just roll it over as I´ve seen some lions do.
Just out of curiosity, how many videos have you actually seen of Tigers dragging Gaur or Buffaloes?
The young male in Kanha drags a Gaur Cow fairly easy.
Quite many, and none gives that kind of impression as that old description. Here for instance moose are hunted every year and dragged in the woods. And I don´t think, that any tiger would do better based on the video clips.
I mean, if 13 men can´t drag 500-700 kg, then we are talking about very small men who have no idea what they are doing :) And if we have a 1000 kg carcass, then I would love to see a video in which tiger tries to drag it even one meter. Unless in some very wet surface making it slide very easily. But then 13 men should be able to drag it too. That old account is just not something I can take seriously no matter how I try to imagine it :)
Quite many of Tigers dragging Gaur or Buffalo?
I doubt there is even a handful available to review.
I can post videos of Grizzlies unable to budge Bison as well, claims of dragging moose into the woods will be dependent on the size of the Moose same with a Gaur.
That is not so special, that not all bears can move a bison carcass. That doesn´t change what was seen on this video and that I haven´t seen anything that impressive yet. Also I have never seen a tiger do performances like that old account claims. If you can show something that impressive by all means post that, big cat strength thread would be a good place so that people find easily also later.
Claims of dragging moose? What do you mean, do you think, that moose walks out of the woods next to the car to be shot when hunting season?
(11-20-2019, 04:14 PM)Shadow Wrote: Nice find, that´s maybe the most impressive show of strength I´ve ever seen from big predators. That looked like to be intact carcass.
I don´t take that account seriously what comes to that gaur carcass, tiger and 13 men. There are many videos what comes to tiger dragging carcasses and in none they have showed ability to drag huge carcasses in the way like some old descriptions claim. Of course if wet grass and tiger drags something downhill, it might be difficult to drag that back uphill...
In these things, what comes to animal strength I choose to believe what can be seen in countless video clips. And this performance by this bear was quite something. It practically lifted over half of that carcass and especially heavier part off the ground before it was turned. I´ve seen big cats to turn over carcasses, but never that big. And not in that way as this bear did. It didn´t just roll it over as I´ve seen some lions do.
Just out of curiosity, how many videos have you actually seen of Tigers dragging Gaur or Buffaloes?
The young male in Kanha drags a Gaur Cow fairly easy.
Quite many, and none gives that kind of impression as that old description. Here for instance moose are hunted every year and dragged in the woods. And I don´t think, that any tiger would do better based on the video clips.
I mean, if 13 men can´t drag 500-700 kg, then we are talking about very small men who have no idea what they are doing :) And if we have a 1000 kg carcass, then I would love to see a video in which tiger tries to drag it even one meter. Unless in some very wet surface making it slide very easily. But then 13 men should be able to drag it too. That old account is just not something I can take seriously no matter how I try to imagine it :)
Quite many of Tigers dragging Gaur or Buffalo?
I doubt there is even a handful available to review.
I can post videos of Grizzlies unable to budge Bison as well, claims of dragging moose into the woods will be dependent on the size of the Moose same with a Gaur.
That is not so special, that not all bears can moce bison carcass. That doesn´t change what was seen on this video and that I haven´t seen anything that impressive yet. Also I have never seen a tiger do performances like that old account claims. If you can show something that impressive by all means post that, big cat strength thread would be a good place so that people find easily also later.
Claims of dragging moose? What do you mean, do you think, that moose walks out of the woods next to the car to be shot when hunting season?
All the Bear did was flip the Bison over, what you see as the most impressive feat of all time for a Carnivore I see as a impressive feat accomplishable by any carnivore of the Bears size.
So do you think that the Gaur was dragged by the wind and the 13 men were make believe?
All other accounts of Gaurs or Buffalo being dragged distances are make believe as well I assume?
Maybe the moose was dragged down a slope into the woods and it's a small juvenile like this one
But it would be foolish of me to try and determine a rule based off of 1 or 2 videos, right?
Like I said, you've never seen a video of the claim of what the Tiger did because you've only seen maybe 2-3 videos of Tigers even attempting it.
This Gaur was dragged quite easily
I wonder what a large Male like Umarpani or CM could drag just like I wonder if that Bear is a large one or not and if that Bison is large or not, to make all these assumptions seems unreasonable I'm my mind.
11-20-2019, 08:50 PM( This post was last modified: 11-20-2019, 09:02 PM by Shadow )
(11-20-2019, 08:40 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-20-2019, 08:20 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-20-2019, 08:13 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-20-2019, 07:56 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-20-2019, 07:37 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-20-2019, 06:50 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-20-2019, 05:26 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:
(11-20-2019, 04:14 PM)Shadow Wrote: Nice find, that´s maybe the most impressive show of strength I´ve ever seen from big predators. That looked like to be intact carcass.
I don´t take that account seriously what comes to that gaur carcass, tiger and 13 men. There are many videos what comes to tiger dragging carcasses and in none they have showed ability to drag huge carcasses in the way like some old descriptions claim. Of course if wet grass and tiger drags something downhill, it might be difficult to drag that back uphill...
In these things, what comes to animal strength I choose to believe what can be seen in countless video clips. And this performance by this bear was quite something. It practically lifted over half of that carcass and especially heavier part off the ground before it was turned. I´ve seen big cats to turn over carcasses, but never that big. And not in that way as this bear did. It didn´t just roll it over as I´ve seen some lions do.
Just out of curiosity, how many videos have you actually seen of Tigers dragging Gaur or Buffaloes?
The young male in Kanha drags a Gaur Cow fairly easy.
Quite many, and none gives that kind of impression as that old description. Here for instance moose are hunted every year and dragged in the woods. And I don´t think, that any tiger would do better based on the video clips.
I mean, if 13 men can´t drag 500-700 kg, then we are talking about very small men who have no idea what they are doing :) And if we have a 1000 kg carcass, then I would love to see a video in which tiger tries to drag it even one meter. Unless in some very wet surface making it slide very easily. But then 13 men should be able to drag it too. That old account is just not something I can take seriously no matter how I try to imagine it :)
Quite many of Tigers dragging Gaur or Buffalo?
I doubt there is even a handful available to review.
I can post videos of Grizzlies unable to budge Bison as well, claims of dragging moose into the woods will be dependent on the size of the Moose same with a Gaur.
That is not so special, that not all bears can move bison carcass. That doesn´t change what was seen on this video and that I haven´t seen anything that impressive yet. Also I have never seen a tiger do performances like that old account claims. If you can show something that impressive by all means post that, big cat strength thread would be a good place so that people find easily also later.
Claims of dragging moose? What do you mean, do you think, that moose walks out of the woods next to the car to be shot when hunting season?
All the Bear did was flip the Bison over, what you see as the most impressive feat of all time for a Carnivore I see as a impressive feat accomplishable by any carnivore of the Bears size.
So do you think that the Gaur was dragged by the wind and the 13 men were make believe?
All other accounts of Gaurs or Buffalo being dragged distances are make believe as well I assume?
Maybe the moose was dragged down a slope into the woods and it's a small juvenile like this one
But it would be foolish of me to try and determine a rule based off of 1 or 2 videos, right?
Like I said, you've never seen a video of the claim of what the Tiger did because you've only seen maybe 2-3 videos of Tigers even attempting it.
This Gaur was dragged quite easily
I wonder what a large Male like Umarpani or CM could drag just like I wonder if that Bear is a large one or not and if that Bison is large or not, to make all these assumptions seems unreasonable I'm my mind.
I´ve seen those videos you shared before. And for me those aren´t even closely as impressive as what that bear did. As I wrote, flipping over isn´t what impressed me, but the way how that bear did it. I have never seen any predator doing it like that. I´ve seen many videos of lions, tigers and bears dragging carcasses etc. But never I have seen any of them to handle something that big like that. I didn´t set any rule there.
And yes, I don´t take seriously that account about that gaur with tiger dragging it and then 13 men not doing the same. Because I have never seen any tiger to drag something, what 13 men couldn´t. If I some day see something like that, then I reconsider. But when I see how tigers and lions struggle with carcasses around 500-600 kg, I simply can´t now, no matter what you or anyone else say. Too big contradiction in claimed and in what can be seen in reality. And there are many more videos of tigers dragging or trying to drag than 2-3 videos, just search in youtube and you can see tigers dragging many animals.
But if you have something impressive, you can share it for instance in big cat strength if you have something what isn´t there already.
11-20-2019, 09:08 PM( This post was last modified: 11-21-2019, 12:26 AM by Pckts )
You've never seen 13 men drag anything like a Gaur or Buffalo so you don't know what that would look like.
The Bear flipped a Bison, it grabbed it by the base of the neck raising the head into the air, the Bison was never "lifted off the ground" then the Bison was rolled over.
And there are almost no videos of Tigers dragging Gaur or Water Buffalo, in fact, that one I posted is probably the first of it's kind to be filmed from what I can recall. I'm well aware of what is on youtube and many other sources, that's not something you see often and almost no videos are in circulation except for a very limited #.
11-20-2019, 09:29 PM( This post was last modified: 11-20-2019, 09:31 PM by Shadow )
(11-20-2019, 09:08 PM)Pckts Wrote: Last I'm going to say on this, you've never seen 13 men drag anything like a Gaur or Buffalo so you dont know what that would look like.
The Bear flipped a Bison, it grabbed it by the base of the neck raising the head into the air, the Bison was never "lifted off the ground" then the Bison was rolled over.
And there are almost no videos of Tigers dragging Gaur or Water Buffalo, in fact, that one I posted is probably the first of it's kind to be filmed from what I can recall. I'm well aware of what is on youtube and many other sources, that's not something you see often and almost no videos are in circulation except for a very limited #.
Well, as I wrote I was impressed by it, that while the bear flipped that bison it also lifted a lot of that carcass off the ground and I have never seen any video footage showing some other predator to do it so. If you know some such clip I am more than happy to see it. Until that for me this video is the most impressive I´ve seen so far.
And as I wrote, when I have seen tigers and lions to struggle with smaller carcasses, I don´t take seriously claims about them dragging carcasses while 13 men are unable to do the same. If I see something even closely to such, I do reconsider my opinion, but not a moment sooner. So in this there is no need to debate really. I don´t care if other people believe something like that, I just can´t. First I should really see some tiger to drag a very big carcass. For me that contradiction is too big now, no matter what.
11-21-2019, 12:23 AM( This post was last modified: 11-21-2019, 12:24 AM by Pckts )
(11-20-2019, 09:29 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-20-2019, 09:08 PM)Pckts Wrote: Last I'm going to say on this, you've never seen 13 men drag anything like a Gaur or Buffalo so you dont know what that would look like.
The Bear flipped a Bison, it grabbed it by the base of the neck raising the head into the air, the Bison was never "lifted off the ground" then the Bison was rolled over.
And there are almost no videos of Tigers dragging Gaur or Water Buffalo, in fact, that one I posted is probably the first of it's kind to be filmed from what I can recall. I'm well aware of what is on youtube and many other sources, that's not something you see often and almost no videos are in circulation except for a very limited #.
Well, as I wrote I was impressed by it, that while the bear flipped that bison it also lifted a lot of that carcass off the ground and I have never seen any video footage showing some other predator to do it so. If you know some such clip I am more than happy to see it. Until that for me this video is the most impressive I´ve seen so far.
And as I wrote, when I have seen tigers and lions to struggle with smaller carcasses, I don´t take seriously claims about them dragging carcasses while 13 men are unable to do the same. If I see something even closely to such, I do reconsider my opinion, but not a moment sooner. So in this there is no need to debate really. I don´t care if other people believe something like that, I just can´t. First I should really see some tiger to drag a very big carcass. For me that contradiction is too big now, no matter what.
I'm curious as to how much you actually think a man can drag and what do you think 13 average men could drag successfully through the Jungle or Savanah Terrain?
We used to Chain Drag a 450lb chain and most new comers couldn't even lift a link or two off the ground, let alone drag it any distance and this was on flat concrete with no resistance, compare that to a 1000kg dead carcass being dragged through high grass or dense jungle, it's not even in the same realm. Considering most men aren't nearly as strong, you're really talking about Men who can lift between 130-170lbs which is about the average, "average 198 pound male can lift 155 pounds even without training," not to mention Indian men aren't that large from what I've seen.
This is me dragging the chain I'm talking about
and I'm 6'5'' and 250lbs,
*This image is copyright of its original author
not your average sized man which is 5'9'' and even shorter in India, which is why I'm not sure why you key in to the 13 men claim when I doubt you've had much experience in that field to make that kind of assumption.
11-21-2019, 01:20 AM( This post was last modified: 11-21-2019, 01:33 AM by Shadow )
(11-21-2019, 12:23 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-20-2019, 09:29 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-20-2019, 09:08 PM)Pckts Wrote: Last I'm going to say on this, you've never seen 13 men drag anything like a Gaur or Buffalo so you dont know what that would look like.
The Bear flipped a Bison, it grabbed it by the base of the neck raising the head into the air, the Bison was never "lifted off the ground" then the Bison was rolled over.
And there are almost no videos of Tigers dragging Gaur or Water Buffalo, in fact, that one I posted is probably the first of it's kind to be filmed from what I can recall. I'm well aware of what is on youtube and many other sources, that's not something you see often and almost no videos are in circulation except for a very limited #.
Well, as I wrote I was impressed by it, that while the bear flipped that bison it also lifted a lot of that carcass off the ground and I have never seen any video footage showing some other predator to do it so. If you know some such clip I am more than happy to see it. Until that for me this video is the most impressive I´ve seen so far.
And as I wrote, when I have seen tigers and lions to struggle with smaller carcasses, I don´t take seriously claims about them dragging carcasses while 13 men are unable to do the same. If I see something even closely to such, I do reconsider my opinion, but not a moment sooner. So in this there is no need to debate really. I don´t care if other people believe something like that, I just can´t. First I should really see some tiger to drag a very big carcass. For me that contradiction is too big now, no matter what.
I'm curious as to how much you actually think a man can drag and what do you think 13 average men could drag successfully through the Jungle or Savanah Terrain?
We used to Chain Drag a 450lb chain and most new comers couldn't even lift a link or two off the ground, let alone drag it any distance and this was on flat concrete with no resistance, compare that to a 1000kg dead carcass being dragged through high grass or dense jungle, it's not even in the same realm. Considering most men aren't nearly as strong, you're really talking about Men who can lift between 130-170lbs which is about the average, "average 198 pound male can lift 155 pounds even without training," not to mention Indian men aren't that large from what I've seen.
This is me dragging the chain I'm talking about
and I'm 6'5'' and 250lbs,
*This image is copyright of its original author
not your average sized man which is 5'9'' and even shorter in India, which is why I'm not sure why you key in to the 13 men claim when I doubt you've had much experience in that field to make that kind of assumption.
Fair question and I do know, that this is a bit complicated thing. It´s the same thing as when talking about domestic cows for instance. Some species can be like 200-300 kg, while in the country I live in cows are often 500-600 kg. Of course when there is said, that 13 men, my first image is 13 men around 80-100 kg. I do know, that it can be very different in the case, what (was it Corbett) has described from the past.
Unlike you think, I have quite a lot of experience lifting and dragging things, also carcasses. That´s why I am very critical to some claims. Also it´s good to criticize some things, because many people really don´t know certain differences and then they start to imagine tigers able to drag things, which 13.... how to say this, well 13 men who work physically couldn´t and that is exaggeration. If we talk about quite small men, that is of course different thing and that would be only explanation I can imagine how that case could be valid, especially if they haven´t had rope to use, which makes it quite impossible to utilize full strength of all men dragging. Of course if there are 13 men x 50 kg=650 kg that is different thing if 13 men x 80 kg= 1040 kg or as it would be here in countryside most probably 13 x 90 kg= 1170 kg...
So yes, it´s possible, that 13 men couldn´t move some carcass and tiger could, depending on conditions and terrain. Then again, as I have mentioned earlier, I have with my friend dragged a moose carcass around 400-500 kg on tarmac and it was easy. That fur had practically no friction against tarmac so it was only a bit force to get it moving and then it was really easy to drag it off the road and short distance on grass. In the woods it would have been different thing naturally.
Here one video showing how moose carcass is dragged in the woods, these animals are usually 400-600 kg, maybe some biggest 650 kg. Five men in this one, so I think that relatively easy terrain and not too long distance to drag it. But as the video shows, not too easy terrain either, there is often a lot of cursing too involved, especially when someone stumbles.
These carcasses have to be dragged many times hundreds of meters and even some kilometers. When longer distances and big carcasses, there can be 10 men dragging moose to the place where it can be lifted to the trailer.
Main thing here is, that I don´t see that story from Corbett as something extraordinary show of strength of a tiger even if true. Tigers are of course very strong animals. It´s more about putting these things in some reasonable context so, that people understand what we are talking about. I think, that a tiger might be able to drag a carcass demanding 3-5 men (80-100 kg, no need to be weight lifter, but working physically, so some muscle even if some belly too).
If I remember right, gaur of that story was said to have been approximately 1700 lbs or 770 kg. And it was said, that tiger dragged it 15 yards or so? I have no trouble seeing a tiger dragging that weight for short distance like 15 yards if terrain isn´t worst possible. But if 13 men can´t do the same, then there has to be something explaining it. Size of the men, no rope to use etc.
11-21-2019, 01:50 AM( This post was last modified: 11-21-2019, 02:01 AM by Pckts )
(11-21-2019, 01:20 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-21-2019, 12:23 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-20-2019, 09:29 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-20-2019, 09:08 PM)Pckts Wrote: Last I'm going to say on this, you've never seen 13 men drag anything like a Gaur or Buffalo so you dont know what that would look like.
The Bear flipped a Bison, it grabbed it by the base of the neck raising the head into the air, the Bison was never "lifted off the ground" then the Bison was rolled over.
And there are almost no videos of Tigers dragging Gaur or Water Buffalo, in fact, that one I posted is probably the first of it's kind to be filmed from what I can recall. I'm well aware of what is on youtube and many other sources, that's not something you see often and almost no videos are in circulation except for a very limited #.
Well, as I wrote I was impressed by it, that while the bear flipped that bison it also lifted a lot of that carcass off the ground and I have never seen any video footage showing some other predator to do it so. If you know some such clip I am more than happy to see it. Until that for me this video is the most impressive I´ve seen so far.
And as I wrote, when I have seen tigers and lions to struggle with smaller carcasses, I don´t take seriously claims about them dragging carcasses while 13 men are unable to do the same. If I see something even closely to such, I do reconsider my opinion, but not a moment sooner. So in this there is no need to debate really. I don´t care if other people believe something like that, I just can´t. First I should really see some tiger to drag a very big carcass. For me that contradiction is too big now, no matter what.
I'm curious as to how much you actually think a man can drag and what do you think 13 average men could drag successfully through the Jungle or Savanah Terrain?
We used to Chain Drag a 450lb chain and most new comers couldn't even lift a link or two off the ground, let alone drag it any distance and this was on flat concrete with no resistance, compare that to a 1000kg dead carcass being dragged through high grass or dense jungle, it's not even in the same realm. Considering most men aren't nearly as strong, you're really talking about Men who can lift between 130-170lbs which is about the average, "average 198 pound male can lift 155 pounds even without training," not to mention Indian men aren't that large from what I've seen.
This is me dragging the chain I'm talking about
and I'm 6'5'' and 250lbs,
*This image is copyright of its original author
not your average sized man which is 5'9'' and even shorter in India, which is why I'm not sure why you key in to the 13 men claim when I doubt you've had much experience in that field to make that kind of assumption.
Fair question and I do know, that this is a bit complicated thing. It´s the same thing as when talking about domestic cows for instance. Some species can be like 200-300 kg, while in the country I live in cows are often 500-600 kg. Of course when there is said, that 13 men, my first image is 13 men around 80-100 kg. I do know, that it can be very different in the case, what (was it Corbett) has described from the past.
Unlike you think, I have quite a lot of experience lifting and dragging things, also carcasses. That´s why I am very critical to some claims. Also it´s good to criticize some things, because many people really don´t know certain differences and then they start to imagine tigers able to drag things, which 13.... how to say this, well 13 men who work physically couldn´t and that is exaggeration. If we talk about quite small men, that is of course different thing and that would be only explanation I can imagine how that case could be valid, especially if they haven´t had rope to use, which makes it quite impossible to utilize full strength of all men dragging. Of course if there are 13 men x 50 kg=650 kg that is different thing if 13 men x 80 kg= 1040 kg or as it would be here most probably in countryside 13 x 90 kg= 1170 kg...
So yes, it´s possible, that 13 men couldn´t move some carcass and tiger could, depending on conditions and terrain. Then again, as I have mentioned earlier, I have with my friend dragged a moose carcass around 400-500 kg on tarmac and it was easy. That fur had practically no friction against tarmac so it was only a bit force to get it moving and then it was really easy to drag it off the road and short distance on grass. In the woods it would have been different thing naturally.
Here one video showing how moose carcass is dragged in the woods, these animals are usually 400-600 kg, maybe some biggest 650 kg. Five men in this one, so I think that relatively easy terrain and not too long distance to drag it. But as the video shows, not too easy terrain either, there is often a lot of cursing too involved, especially when someone stumbles.
These carcasses have to be dragged many times hundreds of meters and even some kilometers. When longer distances and big carcasses, there can be 10 men dragging moose to the place where it can be lifted to the trailer.
Main thing here is, that I don´t see that story from Corbett as something extraordinary show of strength of a tiger even if true. Tigers are of course very strong animals. It´s more about putting these things in some reasonable context so, that people understand what we are talking about. I think, that a tiger might be able to drag a carcass demanding 3-5 men (80-100kg, no need to be weight lifter, but working physically, so some muscle even if some belly too).
If I remember right, gaur of that story was said to have been approximately 1700 lbs or 770 kg. And it was said, that tiger dragged it 15 yards or so? I have no trouble seeing a tiger dragging that weight for short distance like 15 yards if terrain isn´t worst possible. But if 13 men can´t do the same, then there has to be something explaining it. Size of the men, no rope to use etc.
Good video but lets be critical here.
The men in front have a harness which is a huge help and I doubt that Moose which looks fairly small is 400-600kg
Here's a 660lb *299kg* Moose for reference and this one looks a good amount larger than the moose in the Video
And if 5 good sized men with a Harness need a break while moving that animal, we can imagine what an animal 3 times the weight would take for men with no harness who are much smaller.
This is what a 700lb moose looks like without heart/lungs
Imagine what an animal 2.5-3 times the size of that moose would look like on the ground, it's a completely different story.
(11-20-2019, 09:08 PM)Pckts Wrote: Last I'm going to say on this, you've never seen 13 men drag anything like a Gaur or Buffalo so you dont know what that would look like.
The Bear flipped a Bison, it grabbed it by the base of the neck raising the head into the air, the Bison was never "lifted off the ground" then the Bison was rolled over.
And there are almost no videos of Tigers dragging Gaur or Water Buffalo, in fact, that one I posted is probably the first of it's kind to be filmed from what I can recall. I'm well aware of what is on youtube and many other sources, that's not something you see often and almost no videos are in circulation except for a very limited #.
Well, as I wrote I was impressed by it, that while the bear flipped that bison it also lifted a lot of that carcass off the ground and I have never seen any video footage showing some other predator to do it so. If you know some such clip I am more than happy to see it. Until that for me this video is the most impressive I´ve seen so far.
And as I wrote, when I have seen tigers and lions to struggle with smaller carcasses, I don´t take seriously claims about them dragging carcasses while 13 men are unable to do the same. If I see something even closely to such, I do reconsider my opinion, but not a moment sooner. So in this there is no need to debate really. I don´t care if other people believe something like that, I just can´t. First I should really see some tiger to drag a very big carcass. For me that contradiction is too big now, no matter what.
I'm curious as to how much you actually think a man can drag and what do you think 13 average men could drag successfully through the Jungle or Savanah Terrain?
We used to Chain Drag a 450lb chain and most new comers couldn't even lift a link or two off the ground, let alone drag it any distance and this was on flat concrete with no resistance, compare that to a 1000kg dead carcass being dragged through high grass or dense jungle, it's not even in the same realm. Considering most men aren't nearly as strong, you're really talking about Men who can lift between 130-170lbs which is about the average, "average 198 pound male can lift 155 pounds even without training," not to mention Indian men aren't that large from what I've seen.
This is me dragging the chain I'm talking about
and I'm 6'5'' and 250lbs,
*This image is copyright of its original author
not your average sized man which is 5'9'' and even shorter in India, which is why I'm not sure why you key in to the 13 men claim when I doubt you've had much experience in that field to make that kind of assumption.
Fair question and I do know, that this is a bit complicated thing. It´s the same thing as when talking about domestic cows for instance. Some species can be like 200-300 kg, while in the country I live in cows are often 500-600 kg. Of course when there is said, that 13 men, my first image is 13 men around 80-100 kg. I do know, that it can be very different in the case, what (was it Corbett) has described from the past.
Unlike you think, I have quite a lot of experience lifting and dragging things, also carcasses. That´s why I am very critical to some claims. Also it´s good to criticize some things, because many people really don´t know certain differences and then they start to imagine tigers able to drag things, which 13.... how to say this, well 13 men who work physically couldn´t and that is exaggeration. If we talk about quite small men, that is of course different thing and that would be only explanation I can imagine how that case could be valid, especially if they haven´t had rope to use, which makes it quite impossible to utilize full strength of all men dragging. Of course if there are 13 men x 50 kg=650 kg that is different thing if 13 men x 80 kg= 1040 kg or as it would be here most probably in countryside 13 x 90 kg= 1170 kg...
So yes, it´s possible, that 13 men couldn´t move some carcass and tiger could, depending on conditions and terrain. Then again, as I have mentioned earlier, I have with my friend dragged a moose carcass around 400-500 kg on tarmac and it was easy. That fur had practically no friction against tarmac so it was only a bit force to get it moving and then it was really easy to drag it off the road and short distance on grass. In the woods it would have been different thing naturally.
Here one video showing how moose carcass is dragged in the woods, these animals are usually 400-600 kg, maybe some biggest 650 kg. Five men in this one, so I think that relatively easy terrain and not too long distance to drag it. But as the video shows, not too easy terrain either, there is often a lot of cursing too involved, especially when someone stumbles.
These carcasses have to be dragged many times hundreds of meters and even some kilometers. When longer distances and big carcasses, there can be 10 men dragging moose to the place where it can be lifted to the trailer.
Main thing here is, that I don´t see that story from Corbett as something extraordinary show of strength of a tiger even if true. Tigers are of course very strong animals. It´s more about putting these things in some reasonable context so, that people understand what we are talking about. I think, that a tiger might be able to drag a carcass demanding 3-5 men (80-100kg, no need to be weight lifter, but working physically, so some muscle even if some belly too).
If I remember right, gaur of that story was said to have been approximately 1700 lbs or 770 kg. And it was said, that tiger dragged it 15 yards or so? I have no trouble seeing a tiger dragging that weight for short distance like 15 yards if terrain isn´t worst possible. But if 13 men can´t do the same, then there has to be something explaining it. Size of the men, no rope to use etc.
Good video but lets be critical here.
The men in front have a harness which is a huge help and I doubt that Moose which looks fairly small is 400-600kg
Here's a 660lb *299kg* Moose for reference and this one looks a good amount larger than the moose in the Video
And if 5 good sized men with a Harness need a break while moving that animal, we can imagine what an animal 3 times the weight would take for men with no harness who are much smaller.
This is what a 700lb moose looks like without heart/lungs
Imagine what an animal 2.5-3 times the size of that moose would look like on the ground, it's a completely different story.
That was only one video with one random moose. Every year thousands and thousands are hunted and dragged shorter or longer distances. And as I wrote, rope is a huge help, without rope(s) it´s quite impossible to utilize all strength from different people. 300 kg or 500 kg or 600 kg, all are dragged out of the woods and often from places, that only way to do that is to tie ropes and then men pull and drag it out of there. I have been there.
I wrote already, that if 13 small men and no rope etc. then they might not be able to move 770 kg carcass. But put there some men from countryside here and some rope and you will see how 770 kg moves, no need to have 13 men or 10 men. Easy terrain and a few men, difficult terrain and some more. Friction between fur and ground is naturally a very big factor. Weight alone isn´t the problem. 770 kg is easy to move if low friction and a few men, and very difficult if for some reason friction is high.
(11-20-2019, 09:08 PM)Pckts Wrote: Last I'm going to say on this, you've never seen 13 men drag anything like a Gaur or Buffalo so you dont know what that would look like.
The Bear flipped a Bison, it grabbed it by the base of the neck raising the head into the air, the Bison was never "lifted off the ground" then the Bison was rolled over.
And there are almost no videos of Tigers dragging Gaur or Water Buffalo, in fact, that one I posted is probably the first of it's kind to be filmed from what I can recall. I'm well aware of what is on youtube and many other sources, that's not something you see often and almost no videos are in circulation except for a very limited #.
Well, as I wrote I was impressed by it, that while the bear flipped that bison it also lifted a lot of that carcass off the ground and I have never seen any video footage showing some other predator to do it so. If you know some such clip I am more than happy to see it. Until that for me this video is the most impressive I´ve seen so far.
And as I wrote, when I have seen tigers and lions to struggle with smaller carcasses, I don´t take seriously claims about them dragging carcasses while 13 men are unable to do the same. If I see something even closely to such, I do reconsider my opinion, but not a moment sooner. So in this there is no need to debate really. I don´t care if other people believe something like that, I just can´t. First I should really see some tiger to drag a very big carcass. For me that contradiction is too big now, no matter what.
I'm curious as to how much you actually think a man can drag and what do you think 13 average men could drag successfully through the Jungle or Savanah Terrain?
We used to Chain Drag a 450lb chain and most new comers couldn't even lift a link or two off the ground, let alone drag it any distance and this was on flat concrete with no resistance, compare that to a 1000kg dead carcass being dragged through high grass or dense jungle, it's not even in the same realm. Considering most men aren't nearly as strong, you're really talking about Men who can lift between 130-170lbs which is about the average, "average 198 pound male can lift 155 pounds even without training," not to mention Indian men aren't that large from what I've seen.
This is me dragging the chain I'm talking about
and I'm 6'5'' and 250lbs,
*This image is copyright of its original author
not your average sized man which is 5'9'' and even shorter in India, which is why I'm not sure why you key in to the 13 men claim when I doubt you've had much experience in that field to make that kind of assumption.
Fair question and I do know, that this is a bit complicated thing. It´s the same thing as when talking about domestic cows for instance. Some species can be like 200-300 kg, while in the country I live in cows are often 500-600 kg. Of course when there is said, that 13 men, my first image is 13 men around 80-100 kg. I do know, that it can be very different in the case, what (was it Corbett) has described from the past.
Unlike you think, I have quite a lot of experience lifting and dragging things, also carcasses. That´s why I am very critical to some claims. Also it´s good to criticize some things, because many people really don´t know certain differences and then they start to imagine tigers able to drag things, which 13.... how to say this, well 13 men who work physically couldn´t and that is exaggeration. If we talk about quite small men, that is of course different thing and that would be only explanation I can imagine how that case could be valid, especially if they haven´t had rope to use, which makes it quite impossible to utilize full strength of all men dragging. Of course if there are 13 men x 50 kg=650 kg that is different thing if 13 men x 80 kg= 1040 kg or as it would be here most probably in countryside 13 x 90 kg= 1170 kg...
So yes, it´s possible, that 13 men couldn´t move some carcass and tiger could, depending on conditions and terrain. Then again, as I have mentioned earlier, I have with my friend dragged a moose carcass around 400-500 kg on tarmac and it was easy. That fur had practically no friction against tarmac so it was only a bit force to get it moving and then it was really easy to drag it off the road and short distance on grass. In the woods it would have been different thing naturally.
Here one video showing how moose carcass is dragged in the woods, these animals are usually 400-600 kg, maybe some biggest 650 kg. Five men in this one, so I think that relatively easy terrain and not too long distance to drag it. But as the video shows, not too easy terrain either, there is often a lot of cursing too involved, especially when someone stumbles.
These carcasses have to be dragged many times hundreds of meters and even some kilometers. When longer distances and big carcasses, there can be 10 men dragging moose to the place where it can be lifted to the trailer.
Main thing here is, that I don´t see that story from Corbett as something extraordinary show of strength of a tiger even if true. Tigers are of course very strong animals. It´s more about putting these things in some reasonable context so, that people understand what we are talking about. I think, that a tiger might be able to drag a carcass demanding 3-5 men (80-100kg, no need to be weight lifter, but working physically, so some muscle even if some belly too).
If I remember right, gaur of that story was said to have been approximately 1700 lbs or 770 kg. And it was said, that tiger dragged it 15 yards or so? I have no trouble seeing a tiger dragging that weight for short distance like 15 yards if terrain isn´t worst possible. But if 13 men can´t do the same, then there has to be something explaining it. Size of the men, no rope to use etc.
Good video but lets be critical here.
The men in front have a harness which is a huge help and I doubt that Moose which looks fairly small is 400-600kg
Here's a 660lb *299kg* Moose for reference and this one looks a good amount larger than the moose in the Video
And if 5 good sized men with a Harness need a break while moving that animal, we can imagine what an animal 3 times the weight would take for men with no harness who are much smaller.
This is what a 700lb moose looks like without heart/lungs
Imagine what an animal 2.5-3 times the size of that moose would look like on the ground, it's a completely different story.
That was only one video with one random moose. Every year thousands and thousands are hunted and dragged shorter or longer distances. And as I wrote, rope is a huge help, without rope(s) it´s quite impossible to utilize all strength from different people. 300 kg or 500 kg or 600 kg, all are dragged out of the woods and often from places, that only way to do that is to tie ropes and then men pull and drag it out of there. I have been there.
I wrote already, that if 13 small men and no rope etc. then they might not be able to move 770 kg carcass. But put there some men from countryside here and some rope and you will see how 770 kg moves, no need to have 13 men or 10 men. Easy terrain and a few men, difficult terrain and some more. Friction between fur and ground is naturally a very big factor. Weight alone isn´t the problem. 770 kg is easy to move if low friction and a few men, and very difficult if for some reason friction is high.
No moose will be as large as a bull Gaur and I'm not sure where the 770kg number comes from but it's obvious that's an estimate and regardless of that, any extenuating circumstances like *ropes, harnesses, easy terrain, tarps, size of the men, etc* all have to be thrown out the window since the only thing noted is that 13 grown men couldn't move the Gaur.
While I agree that 13 men with rope and beneficial terrain should have little issue moving even a large Bull Gaur it wasn't about that. It was about the Bear and Bison and what you saw compared to what I saw then spiraled to to this as many debates tend to do.
11-21-2019, 06:53 AM( This post was last modified: 11-21-2019, 06:56 AM by Shadow )
(11-21-2019, 05:27 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-21-2019, 02:26 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-21-2019, 01:50 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-21-2019, 01:20 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-21-2019, 12:23 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-20-2019, 09:29 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-20-2019, 09:08 PM)Pckts Wrote: Last I'm going to say on this, you've never seen 13 men drag anything like a Gaur or Buffalo so you dont know what that would look like.
The Bear flipped a Bison, it grabbed it by the base of the neck raising the head into the air, the Bison was never "lifted off the ground" then the Bison was rolled over.
And there are almost no videos of Tigers dragging Gaur or Water Buffalo, in fact, that one I posted is probably the first of it's kind to be filmed from what I can recall. I'm well aware of what is on youtube and many other sources, that's not something you see often and almost no videos are in circulation except for a very limited #.
Well, as I wrote I was impressed by it, that while the bear flipped that bison it also lifted a lot of that carcass off the ground and I have never seen any video footage showing some other predator to do it so. If you know some such clip I am more than happy to see it. Until that for me this video is the most impressive I´ve seen so far.
And as I wrote, when I have seen tigers and lions to struggle with smaller carcasses, I don´t take seriously claims about them dragging carcasses while 13 men are unable to do the same. If I see something even closely to such, I do reconsider my opinion, but not a moment sooner. So in this there is no need to debate really. I don´t care if other people believe something like that, I just can´t. First I should really see some tiger to drag a very big carcass. For me that contradiction is too big now, no matter what.
I'm curious as to how much you actually think a man can drag and what do you think 13 average men could drag successfully through the Jungle or Savanah Terrain?
We used to Chain Drag a 450lb chain and most new comers couldn't even lift a link or two off the ground, let alone drag it any distance and this was on flat concrete with no resistance, compare that to a 1000kg dead carcass being dragged through high grass or dense jungle, it's not even in the same realm. Considering most men aren't nearly as strong, you're really talking about Men who can lift between 130-170lbs which is about the average, "average 198 pound male can lift 155 pounds even without training," not to mention Indian men aren't that large from what I've seen.
This is me dragging the chain I'm talking about
and I'm 6'5'' and 250lbs,
*This image is copyright of its original author
not your average sized man which is 5'9'' and even shorter in India, which is why I'm not sure why you key in to the 13 men claim when I doubt you've had much experience in that field to make that kind of assumption.
Fair question and I do know, that this is a bit complicated thing. It´s the same thing as when talking about domestic cows for instance. Some species can be like 200-300 kg, while in the country I live in cows are often 500-600 kg. Of course when there is said, that 13 men, my first image is 13 men around 80-100 kg. I do know, that it can be very different in the case, what (was it Corbett) has described from the past.
Unlike you think, I have quite a lot of experience lifting and dragging things, also carcasses. That´s why I am very critical to some claims. Also it´s good to criticize some things, because many people really don´t know certain differences and then they start to imagine tigers able to drag things, which 13.... how to say this, well 13 men who work physically couldn´t and that is exaggeration. If we talk about quite small men, that is of course different thing and that would be only explanation I can imagine how that case could be valid, especially if they haven´t had rope to use, which makes it quite impossible to utilize full strength of all men dragging. Of course if there are 13 men x 50 kg=650 kg that is different thing if 13 men x 80 kg= 1040 kg or as it would be here most probably in countryside 13 x 90 kg= 1170 kg...
So yes, it´s possible, that 13 men couldn´t move some carcass and tiger could, depending on conditions and terrain. Then again, as I have mentioned earlier, I have with my friend dragged a moose carcass around 400-500 kg on tarmac and it was easy. That fur had practically no friction against tarmac so it was only a bit force to get it moving and then it was really easy to drag it off the road and short distance on grass. In the woods it would have been different thing naturally.
Here one video showing how moose carcass is dragged in the woods, these animals are usually 400-600 kg, maybe some biggest 650 kg. Five men in this one, so I think that relatively easy terrain and not too long distance to drag it. But as the video shows, not too easy terrain either, there is often a lot of cursing too involved, especially when someone stumbles.
These carcasses have to be dragged many times hundreds of meters and even some kilometers. When longer distances and big carcasses, there can be 10 men dragging moose to the place where it can be lifted to the trailer.
Main thing here is, that I don´t see that story from Corbett as something extraordinary show of strength of a tiger even if true. Tigers are of course very strong animals. It´s more about putting these things in some reasonable context so, that people understand what we are talking about. I think, that a tiger might be able to drag a carcass demanding 3-5 men (80-100kg, no need to be weight lifter, but working physically, so some muscle even if some belly too).
If I remember right, gaur of that story was said to have been approximately 1700 lbs or 770 kg. And it was said, that tiger dragged it 15 yards or so? I have no trouble seeing a tiger dragging that weight for short distance like 15 yards if terrain isn´t worst possible. But if 13 men can´t do the same, then there has to be something explaining it. Size of the men, no rope to use etc.
Good video but lets be critical here.
The men in front have a harness which is a huge help and I doubt that Moose which looks fairly small is 400-600kg
Here's a 660lb *299kg* Moose for reference and this one looks a good amount larger than the moose in the Video
And if 5 good sized men with a Harness need a break while moving that animal, we can imagine what an animal 3 times the weight would take for men with no harness who are much smaller.
This is what a 700lb moose looks like without heart/lungs
Imagine what an animal 2.5-3 times the size of that moose would look like on the ground, it's a completely different story.
That was only one video with one random moose. Every year thousands and thousands are hunted and dragged shorter or longer distances. And as I wrote, rope is a huge help, without rope(s) it´s quite impossible to utilize all strength from different people. 300 kg or 500 kg or 600 kg, all are dragged out of the woods and often from places, that only way to do that is to tie ropes and then men pull and drag it out of there. I have been there.
I wrote already, that if 13 small men and no rope etc. then they might not be able to move 770 kg carcass. But put there some men from countryside here and some rope and you will see how 770 kg moves, no need to have 13 men or 10 men. Easy terrain and a few men, difficult terrain and some more. Friction between fur and ground is naturally a very big factor. Weight alone isn´t the problem. 770 kg is easy to move if low friction and a few men, and very difficult if for some reason friction is high.
No moose will be as large as a bull Gaur and I'm not sure where the 770kg number comes from but it's obvious that's an estimate and regardless of that, any extenuating circumstances like *ropes, harnesses, easy terrain, tarps, size of the men, etc* all have to be thrown out the window since the only thing noted is that 13 grown men couldn't move the Gaur.
While I agree that 13 men with rope and beneficial terrain should have little issue moving even a large Bull Gaur it wasn't about that. It was about the Bear and Bison and what you saw compared to what I saw then spiraled to to this as many debates tend to do.
No-one has claimed here, that moose would be as big as gaur. Moose was just an example to show dragging of a big animal and I thought, that it was obvious. Where that 770 kg comes from you seem to wonder. It comes from that claimed case concerning gaur dragged by the tiger and then not moved by 13 men as story goes. There was mentioned, that gaur was about 1700 lbs and that is 770 kg.
And you can throw out of the window whatever you want, but I don´t do that. When it´s claimed that a tiger could move some carcass, what 13 men couldn´t, I don´t by that when it´s said like the tiger would be stronger than 13 men.
And yes, @BorneanTiger shared that video, which I see as the most impressive show of strength I´ve seen from any terrestrial predator. He then mentioned that claimed case concerning tiger dragging a carcass which 13 men couldn´t move as something very impressive. I said, that I don´t see that case credible and as impressive as what is on that bear video. Nothing has changed really.
That old story is questionable. And if true, I can´t see it as a great example of extraordinary strength of an animal but as an example of it, that some men were either very small or basically incompetent to move that carcass. Maybe this is now clear.
11-21-2019, 07:40 AM( This post was last modified: 11-21-2019, 07:43 AM by Pckts )
(11-21-2019, 06:53 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-21-2019, 05:27 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-21-2019, 02:26 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-21-2019, 01:50 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-21-2019, 01:20 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-21-2019, 12:23 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-20-2019, 09:29 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-20-2019, 09:08 PM)Pckts Wrote: Last I'm going to say on this, you've never seen 13 men drag anything like a Gaur or Buffalo so you dont know what that would look like.
The Bear flipped a Bison, it grabbed it by the base of the neck raising the head into the air, the Bison was never "lifted off the ground" then the Bison was rolled over.
And there are almost no videos of Tigers dragging Gaur or Water Buffalo, in fact, that one I posted is probably the first of it's kind to be filmed from what I can recall. I'm well aware of what is on youtube and many other sources, that's not something you see often and almost no videos are in circulation except for a very limited #.
Well, as I wrote I was impressed by it, that while the bear flipped that bison it also lifted a lot of that carcass off the ground and I have never seen any video footage showing some other predator to do it so. If you know some such clip I am more than happy to see it. Until that for me this video is the most impressive I´ve seen so far.
And as I wrote, when I have seen tigers and lions to struggle with smaller carcasses, I don´t take seriously claims about them dragging carcasses while 13 men are unable to do the same. If I see something even closely to such, I do reconsider my opinion, but not a moment sooner. So in this there is no need to debate really. I don´t care if other people believe something like that, I just can´t. First I should really see some tiger to drag a very big carcass. For me that contradiction is too big now, no matter what.
I'm curious as to how much you actually think a man can drag and what do you think 13 average men could drag successfully through the Jungle or Savanah Terrain?
We used to Chain Drag a 450lb chain and most new comers couldn't even lift a link or two off the ground, let alone drag it any distance and this was on flat concrete with no resistance, compare that to a 1000kg dead carcass being dragged through high grass or dense jungle, it's not even in the same realm. Considering most men aren't nearly as strong, you're really talking about Men who can lift between 130-170lbs which is about the average, "average 198 pound male can lift 155 pounds even without training," not to mention Indian men aren't that large from what I've seen.
This is me dragging the chain I'm talking about
and I'm 6'5'' and 250lbs,
*This image is copyright of its original author
not your average sized man which is 5'9'' and even shorter in India, which is why I'm not sure why you key in to the 13 men claim when I doubt you've had much experience in that field to make that kind of assumption.
Fair question and I do know, that this is a bit complicated thing. It´s the same thing as when talking about domestic cows for instance. Some species can be like 200-300 kg, while in the country I live in cows are often 500-600 kg. Of course when there is said, that 13 men, my first image is 13 men around 80-100 kg. I do know, that it can be very different in the case, what (was it Corbett) has described from the past.
Unlike you think, I have quite a lot of experience lifting and dragging things, also carcasses. That´s why I am very critical to some claims. Also it´s good to criticize some things, because many people really don´t know certain differences and then they start to imagine tigers able to drag things, which 13.... how to say this, well 13 men who work physically couldn´t and that is exaggeration. If we talk about quite small men, that is of course different thing and that would be only explanation I can imagine how that case could be valid, especially if they haven´t had rope to use, which makes it quite impossible to utilize full strength of all men dragging. Of course if there are 13 men x 50 kg=650 kg that is different thing if 13 men x 80 kg= 1040 kg or as it would be here most probably in countryside 13 x 90 kg= 1170 kg...
So yes, it´s possible, that 13 men couldn´t move some carcass and tiger could, depending on conditions and terrain. Then again, as I have mentioned earlier, I have with my friend dragged a moose carcass around 400-500 kg on tarmac and it was easy. That fur had practically no friction against tarmac so it was only a bit force to get it moving and then it was really easy to drag it off the road and short distance on grass. In the woods it would have been different thing naturally.
Here one video showing how moose carcass is dragged in the woods, these animals are usually 400-600 kg, maybe some biggest 650 kg. Five men in this one, so I think that relatively easy terrain and not too long distance to drag it. But as the video shows, not too easy terrain either, there is often a lot of cursing too involved, especially when someone stumbles.
These carcasses have to be dragged many times hundreds of meters and even some kilometers. When longer distances and big carcasses, there can be 10 men dragging moose to the place where it can be lifted to the trailer.
Main thing here is, that I don´t see that story from Corbett as something extraordinary show of strength of a tiger even if true. Tigers are of course very strong animals. It´s more about putting these things in some reasonable context so, that people understand what we are talking about. I think, that a tiger might be able to drag a carcass demanding 3-5 men (80-100kg, no need to be weight lifter, but working physically, so some muscle even if some belly too).
If I remember right, gaur of that story was said to have been approximately 1700 lbs or 770 kg. And it was said, that tiger dragged it 15 yards or so? I have no trouble seeing a tiger dragging that weight for short distance like 15 yards if terrain isn´t worst possible. But if 13 men can´t do the same, then there has to be something explaining it. Size of the men, no rope to use etc.
Good video but lets be critical here.
The men in front have a harness which is a huge help and I doubt that Moose which looks fairly small is 400-600kg
Here's a 660lb *299kg* Moose for reference and this one looks a good amount larger than the moose in the Video
And if 5 good sized men with a Harness need a break while moving that animal, we can imagine what an animal 3 times the weight would take for men with no harness who are much smaller.
This is what a 700lb moose looks like without heart/lungs
Imagine what an animal 2.5-3 times the size of that moose would look like on the ground, it's a completely different story.
That was only one video with one random moose. Every year thousands and thousands are hunted and dragged shorter or longer distances. And as I wrote, rope is a huge help, without rope(s) it´s quite impossible to utilize all strength from different people. 300 kg or 500 kg or 600 kg, all are dragged out of the woods and often from places, that only way to do that is to tie ropes and then men pull and drag it out of there. I have been there.
I wrote already, that if 13 small men and no rope etc. then they might not be able to move 770 kg carcass. But put there some men from countryside here and some rope and you will see how 770 kg moves, no need to have 13 men or 10 men. Easy terrain and a few men, difficult terrain and some more. Friction between fur and ground is naturally a very big factor. Weight alone isn´t the problem. 770 kg is easy to move if low friction and a few men, and very difficult if for some reason friction is high.
No moose will be as large as a bull Gaur and I'm not sure where the 770kg number comes from but it's obvious that's an estimate and regardless of that, any extenuating circumstances like *ropes, harnesses, easy terrain, tarps, size of the men, etc* all have to be thrown out the window since the only thing noted is that 13 grown men couldn't move the Gaur.
While I agree that 13 men with rope and beneficial terrain should have little issue moving even a large Bull Gaur it wasn't about that. It was about the Bear and Bison and what you saw compared to what I saw then spiraled to to this as many debates tend to do.
No-one has claimed here, that moose would be as big as gaur. Moose was just an example to show dragging of a big animal and I thought, that it was obvious. Where that 770 kg comes from you seem to wonder. It comes from that claimed case concerning gaur dragged by the tiger and then not moved by 13 men as story goes. There was mentioned, that gaur was about 1700 lbs and that is 770 kg.
And you can throw out of the window whatever you want, but I don´t do that. When it´s claimed that a tiger could move some carcass, what 13 men couldn´t, I don´t by that when it´s said like the tiger would be stronger than 13 men.
And yes, @BorneanTiger shared that video, which I see as the most impressive show of strength I´ve seen from any terrestrial predator. He then mentioned that claimed case concerning tiger dragging a carcass which 13 men couldn´t move as something very impressive. I said, that I don´t see that case credible and as impressive as what is on that bear video. Nothing has changed really.
That old story is questionable. And if true, I can´t see it as a great example of extraordinary strength of an animal but as an example of it, that some men were either very small or basically incompetent to move that carcass. Maybe this is now clear.
It's more than just brute strength, big cats have major advantages over human beings that allows them to push or pull in the wild, we're not nearly as morphologically equipped to accomplish tasks like that.
With the assistance of tools, that may be a different story.
11-21-2019, 11:22 AM( This post was last modified: 11-21-2019, 11:03 PM by Shadow )
(11-21-2019, 07:40 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-21-2019, 06:53 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-21-2019, 05:27 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-21-2019, 02:26 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-21-2019, 01:50 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-21-2019, 01:20 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-21-2019, 12:23 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-20-2019, 09:29 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-20-2019, 09:08 PM)Pckts Wrote: Last I'm going to say on this, you've never seen 13 men drag anything like a Gaur or Buffalo so you dont know what that would look like.
The Bear flipped a Bison, it grabbed it by the base of the neck raising the head into the air, the Bison was never "lifted off the ground" then the Bison was rolled over.
And there are almost no videos of Tigers dragging Gaur or Water Buffalo, in fact, that one I posted is probably the first of it's kind to be filmed from what I can recall. I'm well aware of what is on youtube and many other sources, that's not something you see often and almost no videos are in circulation except for a very limited #.
Well, as I wrote I was impressed by it, that while the bear flipped that bison it also lifted a lot of that carcass off the ground and I have never seen any video footage showing some other predator to do it so. If you know some such clip I am more than happy to see it. Until that for me this video is the most impressive I´ve seen so far.
And as I wrote, when I have seen tigers and lions to struggle with smaller carcasses, I don´t take seriously claims about them dragging carcasses while 13 men are unable to do the same. If I see something even closely to such, I do reconsider my opinion, but not a moment sooner. So in this there is no need to debate really. I don´t care if other people believe something like that, I just can´t. First I should really see some tiger to drag a very big carcass. For me that contradiction is too big now, no matter what.
I'm curious as to how much you actually think a man can drag and what do you think 13 average men could drag successfully through the Jungle or Savanah Terrain?
We used to Chain Drag a 450lb chain and most new comers couldn't even lift a link or two off the ground, let alone drag it any distance and this was on flat concrete with no resistance, compare that to a 1000kg dead carcass being dragged through high grass or dense jungle, it's not even in the same realm. Considering most men aren't nearly as strong, you're really talking about Men who can lift between 130-170lbs which is about the average, "average 198 pound male can lift 155 pounds even without training," not to mention Indian men aren't that large from what I've seen.
This is me dragging the chain I'm talking about
and I'm 6'5'' and 250lbs,
*This image is copyright of its original author
not your average sized man which is 5'9'' and even shorter in India, which is why I'm not sure why you key in to the 13 men claim when I doubt you've had much experience in that field to make that kind of assumption.
Fair question and I do know, that this is a bit complicated thing. It´s the same thing as when talking about domestic cows for instance. Some species can be like 200-300 kg, while in the country I live in cows are often 500-600 kg. Of course when there is said, that 13 men, my first image is 13 men around 80-100 kg. I do know, that it can be very different in the case, what (was it Corbett) has described from the past.
Unlike you think, I have quite a lot of experience lifting and dragging things, also carcasses. That´s why I am very critical to some claims. Also it´s good to criticize some things, because many people really don´t know certain differences and then they start to imagine tigers able to drag things, which 13.... how to say this, well 13 men who work physically couldn´t and that is exaggeration. If we talk about quite small men, that is of course different thing and that would be only explanation I can imagine how that case could be valid, especially if they haven´t had rope to use, which makes it quite impossible to utilize full strength of all men dragging. Of course if there are 13 men x 50 kg=650 kg that is different thing if 13 men x 80 kg= 1040 kg or as it would be here most probably in countryside 13 x 90 kg= 1170 kg...
So yes, it´s possible, that 13 men couldn´t move some carcass and tiger could, depending on conditions and terrain. Then again, as I have mentioned earlier, I have with my friend dragged a moose carcass around 400-500 kg on tarmac and it was easy. That fur had practically no friction against tarmac so it was only a bit force to get it moving and then it was really easy to drag it off the road and short distance on grass. In the woods it would have been different thing naturally.
Here one video showing how moose carcass is dragged in the woods, these animals are usually 400-600 kg, maybe some biggest 650 kg. Five men in this one, so I think that relatively easy terrain and not too long distance to drag it. But as the video shows, not too easy terrain either, there is often a lot of cursing too involved, especially when someone stumbles.
These carcasses have to be dragged many times hundreds of meters and even some kilometers. When longer distances and big carcasses, there can be 10 men dragging moose to the place where it can be lifted to the trailer.
Main thing here is, that I don´t see that story from Corbett as something extraordinary show of strength of a tiger even if true. Tigers are of course very strong animals. It´s more about putting these things in some reasonable context so, that people understand what we are talking about. I think, that a tiger might be able to drag a carcass demanding 3-5 men (80-100kg, no need to be weight lifter, but working physically, so some muscle even if some belly too).
If I remember right, gaur of that story was said to have been approximately 1700 lbs or 770 kg. And it was said, that tiger dragged it 15 yards or so? I have no trouble seeing a tiger dragging that weight for short distance like 15 yards if terrain isn´t worst possible. But if 13 men can´t do the same, then there has to be something explaining it. Size of the men, no rope to use etc.
Good video but lets be critical here.
The men in front have a harness which is a huge help and I doubt that Moose which looks fairly small is 400-600kg
Here's a 660lb *299kg* Moose for reference and this one looks a good amount larger than the moose in the Video
And if 5 good sized men with a Harness need a break while moving that animal, we can imagine what an animal 3 times the weight would take for men with no harness who are much smaller.
This is what a 700lb moose looks like without heart/lungs
Imagine what an animal 2.5-3 times the size of that moose would look like on the ground, it's a completely different story.
That was only one video with one random moose. Every year thousands and thousands are hunted and dragged shorter or longer distances. And as I wrote, rope is a huge help, without rope(s) it´s quite impossible to utilize all strength from different people. 300 kg or 500 kg or 600 kg, all are dragged out of the woods and often from places, that only way to do that is to tie ropes and then men pull and drag it out of there. I have been there.
I wrote already, that if 13 small men and no rope etc. then they might not be able to move 770 kg carcass. But put there some men from countryside here and some rope and you will see how 770 kg moves, no need to have 13 men or 10 men. Easy terrain and a few men, difficult terrain and some more. Friction between fur and ground is naturally a very big factor. Weight alone isn´t the problem. 770 kg is easy to move if low friction and a few men, and very difficult if for some reason friction is high.
No moose will be as large as a bull Gaur and I'm not sure where the 770kg number comes from but it's obvious that's an estimate and regardless of that, any extenuating circumstances like *ropes, harnesses, easy terrain, tarps, size of the men, etc* all have to be thrown out the window since the only thing noted is that 13 grown men couldn't move the Gaur.
While I agree that 13 men with rope and beneficial terrain should have little issue moving even a large Bull Gaur it wasn't about that. It was about the Bear and Bison and what you saw compared to what I saw then spiraled to to this as many debates tend to do.
No-one has claimed here, that moose would be as big as gaur. Moose was just an example to show dragging of a big animal and I thought, that it was obvious. Where that 770 kg comes from you seem to wonder. It comes from that claimed case concerning gaur dragged by the tiger and then not moved by 13 men as story goes. There was mentioned, that gaur was about 1700 lbs and that is 770 kg.
And you can throw out of the window whatever you want, but I don´t do that. When it´s claimed that a tiger could move some carcass, what 13 men couldn´t, I don´t by that when it´s said like the tiger would be stronger than 13 men.
And yes, @BorneanTiger shared that video, which I see as the most impressive show of strength I´ve seen from any terrestrial predator. He then mentioned that claimed case concerning tiger dragging a carcass which 13 men couldn´t move as something very impressive. I said, that I don´t see that case credible and as impressive as what is on that bear video. Nothing has changed really.
That old story is questionable. And if true, I can´t see it as a great example of extraordinary strength of an animal but as an example of it, that some men were either very small or basically incompetent to move that carcass. Maybe this is now clear.
It's more than just brute strength, big cats have major advantages over human beings that allows them to push or pull in the wild, we're not nearly as morphologically equipped to accomplish tasks like that.
With the assistance of tools, that may be a different story.
Well this discussion wasn´t about it, that are big cats, bears and other big predators stronger than humans. You asked why I don´t take that account (of tiger dragging something what 13 men wouldn´t be able to) seriously. I explained now why I can´t take it seriously. it´s then another thing, that is for instance tiger stronger than humans. It is of course. But there are limits for animal strength and there is no need for tools or assistance in dragging some carcass, just using brains to utilize available strength, when there are people. Tiger isn´t that strong, that it could do whatever it wants. They do struggle with carcasses, which are 1700 lbs , but if 13 men can´t move such carcass, then there really is something wrong. Even with bare hands such carcass should be able to be moved, if thinking a moment how to do it.
Difficult to see anything more to say concerning this. What comes to the old stories, some people believe, others don´t. This one I don´t. It just doesn´t make sense, when I think about it and that´s it.
Bear Strength
