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"Trees filled with vultures drew our attention and we found an old male lion resting with a full belly. We suspect this to be a once dominant king that has come into conflict with other lions and pushed out of his territory by younger males."
08-28-2023, 12:31 PM( This post was last modified: 08-28-2023, 12:33 PM by BigLion39 )
(08-27-2023, 01:33 PM)afortich Wrote: Buddy, I know you are very knowledgeable about lions, and I respect that a lot, and believe everything you said above.
I apologize because after reading my own message, it could be understood in a negative way but was not my intention.
Oh my friend, not to worry, I was agreeing with your point! I did not take anything you said negatively! I love to have debates so my skin is thick! I love this forum and all of you guys here have great knowledge so thank you for spreading that! No need to appoligize my friend! Also, I don't really see myself too knowledgeable about lions, I really just repost info that is correct and vetted to the best of my ability from other, way more knowledgeable people than I.
(08-28-2023, 11:51 AM)Tonpa Wrote: "Trees filled with vultures drew our attention and we found an old male lion resting with a full belly. We suspect this to be a once dominant king that has come into conflict with other lions and pushed out of his territory by younger males."
I guess we'll never know, but something had to have happened to the other Southern Avoca while they were in Kruger. It's amazing to me how fleeting the rule of a coalition can be. I know the S. Avocas ruled for a LONG time, but they went from unstoppable to gone in what seemed like hours.
(08-28-2023, 11:51 AM)Tonpa Wrote: "Trees filled with vultures drew our attention and we found an old male lion resting with a full belly. We suspect this to be a once dominant king that has come into conflict with other lions and pushed out of his territory by younger males."
I guess we'll never know, but something had to have happened to the other Southern Avoca while they were in Kruger. It's amazing to me how fleeting the rule of a coalition can be. I know the S. Avocas ruled for a LONG time, but they went from unstoppable to gone in what seemed like hours.
Agreed. Image of the smaller brother ragged and out of place, that's hard to believe it.
(08-28-2023, 11:51 AM)Tonpa Wrote: "Trees filled with vultures drew our attention and we found an old male lion resting with a full belly. We suspect this to be a once dominant king that has come into conflict with other lions and pushed out of his territory by younger males."
A lot of mystery about S.Avocas since that Dreadlocks fight.
They went missing, and after few weeks emerged near Hamiltons Camp (if that was correct info) , then apperently again seen back south near their former territory (again not sure if that was correct info either) and now we see only 1 male alone.
The signs are indeed not looking good. Sightings have become scarce and when there is one its everywhere but home. One of the lions is missing and as things look now will likely join the list of lions lost on eternal nomadhood.
I guess the fight with Dreadlocks spooked them. So they went out to find a safer territory, only to run into serious trouble elsewhere.
(08-28-2023, 08:00 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: guess the fight with Dreadlocks spooked them. So they went out to find a safer territory, only to run into serious trouble elsewhere
Dont think that fight "spooked" them, as they where clear winners of it, if any, that would give them even more confidence.
Something happened after that, Nkhulus prob regrouped and pushed back.
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Perhaps, but once the rush of victory wore off. They would have realized that in the end, the fight with all the risks that came with it, was not enough to scare and drive out the Nkhulus. Which probably was the only hope they had against them.
The only option left for the Avocas would have been to somehow isolate each of their seven rivals and take them out one by one. Which is far more dangerous of a longshot than packing up and finding a nice pride elsewhere would be.
(08-28-2023, 08:57 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Which is far more dangerous of a longshot than packing up and finding a nice pride elsewhere would be.
Well yea, they where screwed either way.
Losing territory and nomadic life is death sentence to many males, especially lions over 10 yrs of age, and as we can see, they maybe already lost 1 member in nomadic life only few months in.
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Probably something similar to the Charleston Males With the Nkhulus fathers or Southern Matimbas and the Birmingham males bigger coalition moved in and they left because they knew they couldn’t beat all of them I mean it’s 7 vs 2 and lions can count
08-29-2023, 12:36 AM( This post was last modified: 08-29-2023, 04:09 AM by Mapokser )
I agree to the notion that the most likely scenario was that they went nomadic after hearing the Nkhulus roaring after the fight the Avocas won. It's very normal for smaller coalitions to go nomadic this way, knowing the pressure is too much and they can't win.
And at this point the bigger-maned brother might be a goner, though it's a bit weird since we know they left their territory alive and well, so if 1/2 S.Avoca is dead, Nkhulus are probably not the culprit.
Both Avocas even tried to take over the Hamilton pride, mating and showing territorial behavior. The same pride Leeubrons were also trying to take, and apparently have taken over, being dominant there now?
Could the Avocas have had an encounter with them? Or maybe the brother went missing when they returned for a quick visit to their previous stronghold, then Nkhulus are the culprits after all? I guess we'll never know, hell a buffalo could have killed him for all we know.
08-29-2023, 01:18 AM( This post was last modified: 08-29-2023, 02:16 AM by Duco Ndona )
The southern Avoca's are no pushovers and seeing the surviving lion is wounded, they both were in the same fight.
There are probably only a few groups that have the strength to do this to them. We will have to see who suddenly has wounds that match up the timeline.
(08-29-2023, 01:18 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: The southern Avoca's are no pushovers and seeing the surviving lion wounded, they both were in the same fight.
There are probably only a few groups that have the strength to do this to them. We will have to see who suddenly has wounds that match up the timeline.
This is what I believe as well, that his injuries likely resulted from the same altercation that now has the bigger maned male absent. I don't believe that the Kambula females did that to him. Given how tight they were, we never saw pictures of one without the other, I don't believe that he was not present when whatever happened to his brother occurred, nor do I believe he would leave his brother behind, just like what happened with T and KT. The two Southern Avocas were as tight as any males you'll find, right up there with the likes of the Ross Males and the PCM, their loyalty to one another has been seen repeatedly.
(08-29-2023, 01:18 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: The southern Avoca's are no pushovers and seeing the surviving lion wounded, they both were in the same fight.
There are probably only a few groups that have the strength to do this to them. We will have to see who suddenly has wounds that match up the timeline.
Agreed if the wound was indeed inflicted by other males during a fight with the two Southern Avocas there’s not many coalitions that could do this to them, not that I’m familiar with most of the coalitions around them anyways but I’ve never seen or heard of them losing a fight, so the victors would have outnumbered them, significantly. It’s not normal for lions this aggressive to survive for this long especially considering there’s only two of them, holding territories in both Sabi Sands and Kruger. If the bigger Southern Avoca has indeed passed, any lion in Sabi Sands or Kruger would be lucky to form a partnership with the surviving Southern Avoca.
Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage
