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Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage
Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage
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Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage
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 (06-25-2022, 03:37 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Any healty lion will just try to get rid of him and take the pride for himself. That's a big assumption. The limping Monwana male who won't survive two weeks on his own and has a very bad leg injury, he was able to join a younger male from the Girraffe pride. DM's injury is no where near as severe and I don't see any reason he won't be able to find a partner. Lions don't make calculations like that, under the right circumstances any nomadic male lion would join another nomadic male, even ones with very severe injuries. Usually when males join up there isn't a pride at stake anyway, by the time they look for a pride the bond is already established. What you said simply wouldn't happen.  (06-25-2022, 08:26 AM)sik94 Wrote:(06-25-2022, 03:37 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Any healty lion will just try to get rid of him and take the pride for himself. That's right, the story of the Monwana male and Giraffe male is very impressive. And like you said, DM is in way better condition than Monwana. DM actually survived on his own, and in cases disclosed aggressiveness against other males when necessary. I rather think like you until prove otherwise by evidence directly from events involving DM. 
Its not some big assumtion. Its how it nearly always ends.
If a male lion runs into another male lion that is territorial. The territorial lion either gets rid of him to protect his pride. Or the challenger will seek to detrone and take the pride himself. Even if the two are nomadic. If the difference in strength is far to large . Without a prexisting social bond the stronger one typically will just chase of the weaker one when food grows scarce. I think you guys are overestimating how social lions are. They arent looking for opportunities to make friends above all else. 
1. Monwana male actually linked up with Giraffe male many, many moths after healty Monwana male passed away. If he wouldn't be able to survive 2 weeks by himself he would be already gone by now. Same goes for DM Avoca.
2. Judging DM through prism of his small mane is much exaggeration. His body looks good, healty. In general it seems to be trade mark of Brutus Giraffe male lineage to have strong, healty body and at the same time small mane. Mohawk and Blondie Northern Avocas, smaller maned Southern Avoca, Birmingham male, Red Road male (through in the case of RR it is not confirmed who sired him and is up for speculations). DM Avoca and Brutus himself had nice manes at their peaks through both started loosing it rather early. Anyway looking at DM body shape I do not see reason why he couldn't be able to still compete with other male lions in the arena. 3. What it comes to DM's injury, there I also think its meaning is tend to exaggerate. We already seen DM be able to run at full spead if he wants to. In the fight with the adrenaline kicking it, the paw pain should be even a less of a issue. Sure with injury he won't be that strong as without it through persenting him as unable to fight seems very exaggerate to me. Moreover even after reciving his injury DM was still the most dominant of his coalition as long as they were coalition. We could also bring up other examples like WN Ndzenga, Nharhu male or Kruger male Limper who despite health issues were not only still able to compete with other males (including own coalition partners at mating rights), but in fact they were duing just as good as if they were fully healty. 4. What it comes to DM regaining dominant possition in some arena that in general depends what kind of coalition partners he would have to support. On his own he won't be able to do much. In general being a single male no matter how strong and healty some would be, he has little chances to succeed on the long run. On the other hand if DM would have some strong coalition partner(s) like for example his 2 sons he would still have good chances to regain dominant possition. 
DM's injury is to some extent a confidence thing. He instinctively knows he can't outrun incoming danger and if he does not avoid it in time, he gonna face it and that is likely an all-in situation for him cause he can't easily escape if things go south. He can run alright if he wants but it is likely males in condition to beat him would be faster and could caught in him in a chase if they would really want to. Ofc he is not consciously contemplating those things, but instinctively behaves along those lines. In the end he acts more cautiously and won't be likely to get into fights of which he is not sure about the outcome. We have the sighting of Imbali male chasing him and Talamati sub-adults from a kill, we don't know if Dark Mane knew that Imbali is without coalition partners, but probably did not want to risk 1 v 1 confrontation either, especially if it is not a fight he has to take and can just opt to not risk anything and live for another day for sure - during nomadic days that might be different, a kill would mena more if he doesn't know when he can get to another one and would not have a support system to fall back (aka being fed by his pride). There could also be a more developed subconcious worry of sustaining another injury in a fight, even if he would come on top, since even Corky (Djuma hyena clan matriach) managed to bite his paw before, to the extent of forcing him to release her. Could be DM now operates in happy go lucky style without focing anything and being content with status quo. His lone trip across Sabi Sands can be intepreted in many ways hard to know for sure what that was about.
As for him getting a partner while still being dominant that is highly unlikely, but things like that sometimes happen, more so as somethign extraodrinary rather than something we could expect to happen or count on. In Sabi Sands, Solo managed to join an aging male nad later run with his son(s). It would likely require younger, rather unexperienced male, more so that DM could possibly run from stronger threats. Even the Birmingham Young Male got seemingly accepted into Ross males colaition (before moving on and running uo into Torchwood), but hsitory of that individual is overall very atypical. It is ofc more likely if there is nothing to compete for nothing to lose for one side, nomadic males without a pride don't have much of a reason to be hostile against each other, unless food is involved and if there is no kill, hostility is an unecessary risk and the individuals are much better of either getting along or going each their own way (numbers on each side would likely be a factor, as well as age and condition). If they keep bumping into each other (or simply one side follows the other) they might get used to the other being around anyway. Whether it would mean a one time truce or staying together is never certain. I still believe lone males are receptive of joining another male(s) to have better shot, even if temporarily.  (06-25-2022, 05:24 PM)RookiePundit Wrote: DM's injury is to some extent a confidence thing. He instinctively knows he can't outrun incoming danger and if he does not avoid it in time, he gonna face it and that is likely an all-in situation for him cause he can't easily escape if things go south. He can run alright if he wants but it is likely males in condition to beat him would be faster and could caught in him in a chase if they would really want to. Ofc he is not consciously contemplating those things, but instinctively behaves along those lines. In the end he acts more cautiously and won't be likely to get into fights of which he is not sure about the outcome. We have the sighting of Imbali male chasing him and Talamati sub-adults from a kill, we don't know if Dark Mane knew that Imbali is without coalition partners, but probably did not want to risk 1 v 1 confrontation either, especially if it is not a fight he has to take and can just opt to not risk anything and live for another day for sure - during nomadic days that might be different, a kill would mena more if he doesn't know when he can get to another one and would not have a support system to fall back (aka being fed by his pride). There could also be a more developed subconcious worry of sustaining another injury in a fight, even if he would come on top, since even Corky (Djuma hyena clan matriach) managed to bite his paw before, to the extent of forcing him to release her. Could be DM now operates in happy go lucky style without focing anything and being content with status quo. His lone trip across Sabi Sands can be intepreted in many ways hard to know for sure what that was about. In single, nomadic days, DM also chased Gore Ndhzenga of the kill (a dominant male, altrough also injured and prob weaker then him) and overpowered 2 Kambula young males on a kill, so as you say, when he has to, when he doesn’t have pride to rely on, he can still put a fight, otherwise he would die.  (06-25-2022, 05:24 PM)RookiePundit Wrote: DM's injury is to some extent a confidence thing. He instinctively knows he can't outrun incoming danger and if he does not avoid it in time, he gonna face it and that is likely an all-in situation for him cause he can't easily escape if things go south. He can run alright if he wants but it is likely males in condition to beat him would be faster and could caught in him in a chase if they would really want to. Ofc he is not consciously contemplating those things, but instinctively behaves along those lines. In the end he acts more cautiously and won't be likely to get into fights of which he is not sure about the outcome. We have the sighting of Imbali male chasing him and Talamati sub-adults from a kill, we don't know if Dark Mane knew that Imbali is without coalition partners, but probably did not want to risk 1 v 1 confrontation either, especially if it is not a fight he has to take and can just opt to not risk anything and live for another day for sure - during nomadic days that might be different, a kill would mena more if he doesn't know when he can get to another one and would not have a support system to fall back (aka being fed by his pride). There could also be a more developed subconcious worry of sustaining another injury in a fight, even if he would come on top, since even Corky (Djuma hyena clan matriach) managed to bite his paw before, to the extent of forcing him to release her. Could be DM now operates in happy go lucky style without focing anything and being content with status quo. His lone trip across Sabi Sands can be intepreted in many ways hard to know for sure what that was about. On base of what are you claiming DM does not have confidance to fight? Just on base that he lose ground to Imbali male? It just as much could came to Imbali male simply being bigger, stronger, in better condition, not that he has some issue with fighting others. Personally I would not interpret DM as you did. Also DM is no longer dominant male and there is no any problem for him to make coalition with another adult male. (06-25-2022, 05:24 PM)RookiePundit Wrote: DM's injury is to some extent a confidence thing. He instinctively knows he can't outrun incoming danger and if he does not avoid it in time, he gonna face it and that is likely an all-in situation for him cause he can't easily escape if things go south. He can run alright if he wants but it is likely males in condition to beat him would be faster and could caught in him in a chase if they would really want to. Ofc he is not consciously contemplating those things, but instinctively behaves along those lines. In the end he acts more cautiously and won't be likely to get into fights of which he is not sure about the outcome. We have the sighting of Imbali male chasing him and Talamati sub-adults from a kill, we don't know if Dark Mane knew that Imbali is without coalition partners, but probably did not want to risk 1 v 1 confrontation either, especially if it is not a fight he has to take and can just opt to not risk anything and live for another day for sure - during nomadic days that might be different, a kill would mena more if he doesn't know when he can get to another one and would not have a support system to fall back (aka being fed by his pride). There could also be a more developed subconcious worry of sustaining another injury in a fight, even if he would come on top, since even Corky (Djuma hyena clan matriach) managed to bite his paw before, to the extent of forcing him to release her. Could be DM now operates in happy go lucky style without focing anything and being content with status quo. His lone trip across Sabi Sands can be intepreted in many ways hard to know for sure what that was about.A few inaccuracies here, I would think. It wasn't DM with Corky on that clip but one of his brothers. Also, BYM was never accepted into the Ross male coalition, if anything he was beaten upon regularly and sustained some pretty severe knocks not least of which is the hip injury that looked like he would struggle to recover from. He survived, avoided the males in general and eventually dispersed. That's not to say the gist of your post is incorrect and what you say is possible. One things for certain, DM is certainly a survivor. I remember seeing him on Wild Earth not long after the injury and I though there was no way he would come back, his ankle was broken that badly, but he did. Then he lost his territory and looked in pretty bad nick, but he survived and while we don't always appreciate it, has helped raise at least two powerful up and coming males and a core of young and powerful lionesses. If they all make it to adulthood he would rank right up there for leaving behind a lasting legacy and not many would have thought that in the wake of much more storied and admired coalitions and males lions. (06-25-2022, 02:10 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: If a male lion runs into another male lion that is territorial Obviously a territorial male wouldn't accept a nomad, no one is challenging that point. (06-25-2022, 02:10 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Even if the two are nomadic. If the difference in strength is far to large . Without a prexisting social bond the stronger one typically will just chase of the weaker one when food grows scarce. I agree with that but the difference in strength wouldn't be the factor that would stop them from joining up. You're changing the scenario now, we were talking about the chances for a nomadic and injured DM to find a partner, not about territorial males. (06-25-2022, 02:10 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: I think you guys are overestimating how social lions are. True. Circumstances under which males join up are very rare but when they do happen, lions don't judge their to be partners based on their physical condition or lack of injuries. (06-25-2022, 02:14 PM)Potato Wrote: 1. Monwana male actually linked up with Giraffe male many, many moths after healty Monwana male passed away. If he wouldn't be able to survive 2 weeks by himself he would be already gone by now. Same goes for DM Avoca. If the injured Monwana survived those months he was off the radar by himself, I can assure you he wasn't hunting for himself. Either he was stealing from prides or scavenging, he wouldn't last two weeks if he couldn't scavenge from others. And we don't know exactly when he joined the younger male because they just showed up one day after being missing for months. (06-26-2022, 02:39 AM)sik94 Wrote:The issue lies in that if one is weaker than the others. He cant compete with the stronger member. So he may get chased away from kills, lionesses or if the bond is still very weak, beaten up regularly. So he wont stick around.(06-25-2022, 02:10 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: If a male lion runs into another male lion that is territorial (06-26-2022, 03:52 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: The issue lies in that if one is weaker than the others. He cant compete with the stronger member. So he may get chased away from kills, lionesses or if the bond is still very weak, beaten up regularly. So he wont stick around. Depends on how many competititors he has to face, 1 male cant eat or defend whole kudu or buffalo kill, so weaker male will definitely get some share of that carcass. Lion dynamics are more complex then we speak of.. We saw DM chasing of Gore Ndhzenga of the kill, and outmuscaling 2 young Kambulas on the kill, so he still definitely has the power to compete and potentialy form a coalition, even if he has to be a 2nd "violine". DM, even if he is showing signs of "ageing" is definitely still not in that condition to be seen as "useless " to other nomadic lions. He cant still pot find partners (or his sons) and become dominant again, i just dont think he has the "power" to do it by himself anymore, because he would show that against Imbali male, he had territory and pride on his side, and he didn't. Yes, its true that Imbali was more fit and healthy then him, and thats the reason he lost, but thats the whole point, if he cant defend territory and pride against 1 male, then he is not "sutiable" to be territorial male anymore, he needs help.
06-26-2022, 07:29 AM
( This post was last modified: 06-26-2022, 07:59 AM by afortich
Edit Reason: clarifying
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(06-26-2022, 06:42 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote:I think what Tr1x24 says above makes a lot sense to me.(06-26-2022, 03:52 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: The issue lies in that if one is weaker than the others. He cant compete with the stronger member. So he may get chased away from kills, lionesses or if the bond is still very weak, beaten up regularly. So he wont stick around. DM went through a difficult time while away from Talamatis, which may have change his reactions for good , therefore, I would love to see his reaction if a single lion challenges him now. 
I think saying the Linping Monwana male, or any lion with that bad of injury, cannot hunt and survive alone is rubbish. We can look at may examples of this happening, 1 being Spearboy in the Mara; hes survived alone and has hunted with severe hip injury. We underestimate these lions when in that particular situation injured. I think any limping lone male can dig out a warthog if he had to and I would call that hunting.
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