Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project

[Ba Ba Lou]

pckts.

kesri singh give an account of Bengal tigers defeating Asiatic lions 3 times, but in  conjunction with kesri's account another guy In India boldchamp mentions Asiatic lions beating Bengal tigers 4 straight. I guess it's safe to say in 7 fights IN THE WILD, the Asiatic lion wins 4 and the Bengal tiger wins 3, pretty much even with a SLIGHT edge going to the lion.

All others that CLAIM Bengal tigers drove Asiatic lions out of Kuno only give THEIR opinion with no EYEWITNESS accounts. The Asiatic lion is no longer in Kuno is because the lions where hunted to extinction in Kuno.

When asked who would win Amur tiger vs. African lion,  lion expert Craig Packer says a Amur tiger would PROBABLY be too much for a African lion, again  a mere OPINION, not an EYEWITNESS account.

But here's an eyewitness account from a tiger EXPERT Dr. Kallash Sankhala, NOT an opinion.


"Story Of The Indian Tiger" 1977 By Kalash Sankhala.
Pages 119-120, why the  lion left game rich areas of India for the Gir forest, I do not know, all I can say is the tiger IS NOT responsible. In my opinion a tiger is no match even for a single lion of equal strength. Sankhala bases his opinion on seeing a film of a male lion vs. male tiger fight, the lion killed the tiger. ( This fight IS NOT the Gir lion tiger fight, but ANOTHER fight ) An eyewitness account,  NOT an opinion. Reply

[Pckts]

No misinformation there...


Once again, this is not the place for L v T, go to Carnivora and see if you can add some new insight to the 350+ page thread there. Reply

[Rishi]

(02-02-2017, 08:30 AM)Ba Ba Lou Wrote: pckts.

kesri singh give an account of Bengal tigers defeating Asiatic lions 3 times, but in  conjunction with kesri's account another guy In India boldchamp mentions Asiatic lions beating Bengal tigers 4 straight. I guess it's safe to say in 7 fights IN THE WILD, the Asiatic lion wins 4 and the Bengal tiger wins 3, pretty much even with a SLIGHT edge going to the lion.

All others that CLAIM Bengal tigers drove Asiatic lions out of Kuno only give THEIR opinion with no EYEWITNESS accounts. The Asiatic lion is no longer in Kuno is because the lions where hunted to extinction in Kuno.

When asked who would win Amur tiger vs. African lion,  lion expert Craig Packer says a Amur tiger would PROBABLY be too much for a African lion, again  a mere OPINION, not an EYEWITNESS account.

But here's an eyewitness account from a tiger EXPERT Dr. Kallash Sankhala, NOT an opinion.


"Story Of The Indian Tiger" 1977 By Kalash Sankhala.
Pages 119-120, why the  lion left game rich areas of India for the Gir forest, I do not know, all I can say is the tiger IS NOT responsible. In my opinion a tiger is no match even for a single lion of equal strength. Sankhala bases his opinion on seeing a film of a male lion vs. male tiger fight, the lion killed the tiger. ( This fight IS NOT the Gir lion tiger fight, but ANOTHER fight ) An eyewitness account,  NOT an opinion.

Dude itz not Dragonball-Z with power-levels to indicate who will kick whose @$$.
Far too many factors are at play:

• Initiative
• SIZE
• Age
• Health
• Experience
• Individual temperament
• Mood
• Motivation
• Element of surprise
• How well have its hunts been going lately, even
• Stomach content...
  

I've seen (almost) all videos of lion VS tiger fights available on internet; old, new, real, staged.
A single pattern emerges, & ONLY 2 points can be statedfrom those:
1. The larger specimen tends to dominate (i have seen only one exception, I think).
2. Lion tends to have the initiative... Tiger holds his own & beats it back, but doesn't follow up.

Truth is, NOONE has seen such a fight in nature (they differ from arranged pit fight matches) for maybe 500 years now!!!
How could anyone possibly ever presume to know what to expect..?! Reply

[Wolverine]

(10-29-2016, 12:58 AM) pid=\28589' Wrote:... India will never take Africa's place, in terms of wildlife tourism, not in a million years.

If lions and tigers are introduced and share same national park or protected aria as Kuno for example, that protected aria will become automatically the most interesting place on Earth in term of wildlife tourism. In such a case if Indian government is enough wise it can boost through world media an advertisement company under logo: "Meeting between the Two Kings" or boxing like Muhammad Ali's "Rumble in the jungle" and result will be enormous tourist  revenue.
I agree that India can not compare with Africa in term of quantities of wild animals and easiness to see them but it has advantage of safari tourism on the back of elephants, which is unique experience, far more exiting than jeep safari. Reply

[Vinay]

He is absolutely right,India will never take Africa's place, in terms of wildlife tourism, not in a million years.

Have you seen any African/Indian/Asian (Black-Brown-Yellow) show much interest to see wild animals... NO.

Almost 95% wild life tourists around the world are Westerns(Whites).They need
 
Privacy ............ Not possible in India

Clean-Hygiene conditions in tourist places ..... Stray dogs,cows and many animals are everywhere in India.

Indian Jungles cannot guarantee animal sighting unlike African savanna.

So,India lacks quantity like in Africa but we have quality.Most African wild tourism depends on five Animals - 

African lion, African elephant, Cape buffalo, African leopard, and rhinoceros.

Tiger-Asiatic lion ......... This combination is no-match and never be possible in anywhere in the world.
Asian elephants as tour vehicles.
India has 3 types of Biggest beautiful buffalo - Gaur,Water and Yak. .... Still few knows about them.Poor, very poor marketing. 
Indian leopards.
India has Biggest beautiful One horned Rhino.

2.Secondary famous animals

In Africa - Cheetah,Giraffe,Hippo etc....
India has Red-Panda,3 types of Bears,Snow leopards etc Reply

[Brehm]

I do not quite agree with the second part... @Vinay

Yes India has many rare and unique animals. On Paper. They live in the same country, but most likely dont share the same habitat.
Lets say someone wants to see asian lions. Fine, he visits Gir, but if he also plans to see one horned rhino's and wild water buffalo's, he has to travel thousands of km to Kaziranga on the other end of India. Thats not what we call a relaxing vacation at all in my opinion. Especially if we consider indian infrastructure.

Thats the big advantage of many famous african national parks like Kruger, Etosha, Serengeti etc. Most of them got the big five and many other species in the same area. Quality and Quantity in one place.
India got quality spread over the whole country. That doesnt has to be a disadvantage, visiting niches can be also a great experience. Something like eco - triangle tours (based on the "golden triangle") covering some of those niches could be a good idea. Like pckts own kanha - pench - Tadoba (?) triangle trip (correct me if im wrong).



According to the topic, i still think introducing lions into tigerless national parks or even empty tiger reserves could be a alternative and rational solution. Kuno is already occasionaly used by tigers as corridor.

Hello everyone btw, long time no see Reply

[Pckts]

To be fair, to get to the Serengeti, you'll be driving 5+ hours or so after all the flights, it's not exactly a "relaxing vacation" but that's usually not the type of vacation you go on to relax. I haven't done the Indian safari as of yet but my itinerary shows that it's a similar trek to get from Nagpur to Tadoba.
But you don't mind the drive because you're usually seeing things that are very unique to these countries and unlike anything you've seen back home.

But yes, the advantages of open plains compared to jungles is the density and variety of animals in one place. But in Tanzania there is no guarantee you'll see the big 5, black rhinos are extremely rare and tough to spot, same with leopards. We got lucky that we spotted the big 5 each day. Reply

[Wolverine]

(02-03-2017, 08:37 PM)Pckts Wrote: To be fair, to get to the Serengeti, you'll be driving 5+ hours or so after all the flights, it's not exactly a "relaxing vacation" but that's usually not the type of vacation you go on to relax. I haven't done the Indian safari as of yet but my itinerary shows that it's a similar trek to get from Nagpur to Tadoba.
But you don't mind the drive because you're usually seeing things that are very unique to these countries and unlike anything you've seen back home.

But yes, the advantages of open plains compared to jungles is the density and variety of animals in one place. But in Tanzania there is no guarantee you'll see the big 5, black rhinos are extremely rare and tough to spot, same with leopards. We got lucky that we spotted the big 5 each day.

Indian jungle and African savannah have a different "spirit". Indian jungle is illusive, secretive place where sound is not less important than sigth seeng. African savannah is open, brutal place, a kind of battleground. Both of this places I think are equally interesting in its own way, both are unique. The fact that you see more wild animals around in Africa doesn't necessary mean that Africa is better safari place, sometimes the woman is more attractive, when is only partially naked, that give more space to fantasy, same is with jungles of India.

If we talk about general tourism I consider India the most interesting place on Earth. It has not only enourmosly rich nature, but also in contrast of Africa India is a great ancient civilisation with fantasticaly rich cultural traditions, interesting architecture and arts. In subsaharah Africa you can observe only wild animals in gigantic quantities, in Egypt you can study and experience the mustery of ancient pyramids and pharaoh tombs but there is no rich wildlife around. Only in India visitor with more widely interests could combine observing of mega-fauna with visting of mistirious and unreally beautyfull monuments like Taj Mahal or Fathepur Sikri. Reply

[Wolverine]

I am planning to write an letter to the prime minister of Madhya Pradesh and to give him an idea to steal some lions from Gujarat and bring them in Kuno... The code name of the secret operation propose to be "The Night of the Long Cages"... MP motorised forces should enter Gujarati territory under cover of night, catch a dozen of lions and bring them before sunrise in Kuno!
With shauvinists-idiots you cant deal in other way. I think that Prime minister of MP is already so desparate that he himself is already in the bring of such ideas. Reply

[Rishi]

(02-04-2017, 12:56 PM)Wolverine Wrote: I am planning to write an letter to the prime minister of Madhya Pradesh and to give him an idea to steal some lions from Gujarat and bring them in Kuno... The code name of the secret operation propose to be "The Night of the Long Cages"... MP motorised forces should enter Gujarati territory under cover of night, catch a dozen of lions and bring them before sunrise in Kuno!
With shauvinists-idiots you cant deal in other way. I think that Prime minister of MP is already so desparate that he himself is already in the bring of such ideas.

U do understand dat they are part of same country, MP have neither "motorised forces" nor a Prime Minister (Provincial heads r called Chief Min.)..One order from Supreme Court is all it will need..
Itz happening, slowly but steadily, READ d latest news 4m last Dec. 

Quote:Experts to visit Kuno-Palpur for assessing MP’s claims
Himanshu Kaushik| TNN | Updated: Dec 14, 2016, 10.19 AM IST

*This image is copyright of its original author

The move to visit Kuno-Palpur is being viewed as a step further towards finalizing the translocation after a Gir

AHMEDABAD: Crucial meetings on lion translocation are going to be held on December 17 and 18 at Kuno Palpur in Madhya Pradesh. This is the first time that the 12-member committee is holding its meeting outside Delhi to ascertain the preparedness of MP for lion translocation.

The committee will inspect the site and assess the claims of Madhya Pradesh about its prey base. The state has declared 700 sq km as a protected area.

Sources said that the prey base, which was presented before the court in 2013, was nearly 350 sq km, which is the core sanctuary area. However, the committee for the first time will move in the 700 sq km area and will check the prey base.

The move to visit Kuno-Palpur is being viewed as a step further towards finalizing the translocation after a Gujarat official and now PCCF, J A Khan, went on record saying that they were open for translocation. The officials further said that this is also a golden chance for Gujarat officials to examine the area closely and raise fresh objections.

The apex court had in 2013 formed an expert group to oversee the translocation of lions to Kuno-Palpur from Gir. There are 523 lions in Gujarat as per May 2015 census.
Sources said that during several meetings of the core group, Gujarat had raised objections that 350 sq km area was too small to translocate the lions and should be increased. The core group in its report accepted the argument of the Gujarat government and pointed out that the sanctuary area was insufficient for the lions. 

MP wants lions for tourism, according to Gujarat officials and not for conservation.Himanshu Kaushik

The officials said that Gujarat should now demand a prey base study in the entire 700 sq km area. There are several studies which have to be undertaken before translocation as per the International Union for Conservation of Nature, but some the expert committee members are against the study.

According to the officials, disregarding the guidelines set by the IUCN will amount to violation of the apex court order which had clearly stated that the translocation has to be carried within the guidelines of IUCN. The environment and forest ministry, in a response in Lok Sabha, had said that the matter of relocating lions from Gujarat to Madhya Pradesh was a "long-term action", starting from preparing the translocation area in Madhya Pradesh to identifying the lions in Gujarat. The whole programme encompasses action for over 25 years.

Gujarat WILL resist in every possible manner... legally, politically.

As u read above, now they are now using IUCN's technical specifications in their favour, & with this kinda perseverance...I doubt they'll lose.

That's how personal it has gotten!!!
After all, they are the only people in the world who lose half their cattle to lions, yet appreciate their presence & their man-lion relationship is has no equal in d World.

However, this side has their strengths too...MP Forest Dept. successfully taught orphaned tiger cubs to hunt by keeping them in semi-wild, she's a successful mother now!!!..

Quote:.
The Story of How the Orphaned Tigress of Bandhavgarh Was Rehabilitated
BY PUSHP JAIN ON 08/10/2016 •

The tigress has empowered forest officials to continue with their relocation experiments without worrying about a failure here or there. Why? Because the end result is wonderful.

*This image is copyright of its original author

The Churna tigress as cub with mother and a male cub before being orphaned, 2010. Source: Muffi/Sarath C.R. Blog

The tiger’s charisma is beyond debate. Wildlife tourism in the country has been on the rise, and visitors at reserves and ‘tiger parks’ have often been content to have a glimpse of this majestic animal. I myself had occasion in June this year when I visited the Churna range of the Satpura Tiger Reserve in Madhya Pradesh and saw a tigress with three cubs.
It was hot, and the tigress had taken to a small pool of water sheltered by a huge rock at about 10 am. She was cool, calm and relaxed. The two female cubs were hiding in some undergrowth some 150 metres away but within the mother’s sights. Clearly, they were nervous and avoided visitors. They growled and made mock charge if we approached. The head mahawatmonitoring the family told me, “The third male cub is getting more and more independent. It hangs around within the radius of about a kilometre from the family, joining them now and again.”
So it came as an immense shock, even to the extent of sounding incredible, when I learnt the history of this tigress. She was from the Bandhavgarh Tiger Reserve in the same state. She’d become orphaned when she was only four months old – barely old enough to eat raw meat, let alone hunt. Then, she’d been reared in an enclosure in semi-wild conditions, with some human support. At the age of four years, she was relocated to the Satpura Tiger Reserve and finally released into the wild, in the completely free conditions in Churna. Of course, she was being monitored around the clock.
In May 2010, her mother died in Bandhavgarh after she was reportedly hit by a jeep, leaving the tigress and her two male siblings, each around as old as her – no more than five months of age – to fend for themselves. The forest department had then erected a crude enclosure in a rush for these cubs. Sadly, before they could complete it, one male cub became poached by a male tiger. The remaining two cubs then hid in a deep and narrow cave and bereft of food or care for many days. They didn’t dare venture out. And when they were finally found and rescued, they were unable to stand, being inches from death.
Many conservationists and naturalists have been eager to write off such cubs. “We lost a beautiful tigress in Bandhavgarh and the double tragedy is that she has three lovely cubs. So we have effectively lost four wild tigers,” wrote the naturalist Sarth C.R. on his blog.
Better care and effort by a veterinary specialist and the field staff revived the cubs. After that, sensitive attention together with helping the cubs learn from experience and experimenting with various aspects of rearing cubs (what kind of enclosure to make, how much human involvement to permit, what kind of medicine to give, what food to feed, etc.) proved successful.
On June 6, 2014, at the Tala range of the Bandhavgarh Tiger Reserve, the principle chief conservator of forests (PCCF), the field director, the deputy director, a veterinary doctor from Bandhavgarh and the assistant conservator of forests (ACF) of Satpura were ready to help the orphaned tigress relocate from Bandhavgarh to Satpura. There had been relocations of tigers in India before that; nonetheless, they were tense because, after all, a tiger was involved. There was risk. Foresters often feel that there are few to appreciate their efforts when they get something right but many to criticise them when something goes wrong – even if despite their best efforts.
A team of doctors and some officials entered the Jhurjhura enclosure and located the tigress. She’d been tranquilised. After a routine health check, a radio collar is affixed around her neck – the device will be used for keeping an eye on her movements later – and she is placed in the cage she is going to be moved in. By 7.30 pm, the tigress is awake and well on her way to her new home, the amazingly rich Satpura reserve. At Satpura, the stage is all set. The tigress arrived at 12.10 pm and was assigned to the RF 197 plot of the Churna range. When the gate of the cage was lifted open, the tigress bounds out, completely free and ready to live a truly wild life. The tension is defused in seconds, after which there is only an eerie silence.

*This image is copyright of its original author

The tigress snarls. Credit: Pusha Jain

In February 2015, the tigress delivered a litter. Today, this family is a bright ray of hope at the Satpura Tiger Reserve. It can add many more tigers to the reserve if all goes well. Indeed, Satpura needs it...........(deleted some additional crap)

if u wanna write a letter, then request Madhya Pradesh CM to consider rewilding of zoo-bred cubs. We hold some fantastic specimens in our zoos... #228  Reply

[Wolverine]

(02-04-2017, 02:15 PM)Rishi Wrote:      U do understand dat they are part of same country

Yea, but I afraid they do not understand that they are part of same country... Reply

[Rishi]

(02-04-2017, 02:37 PM)Wolverine Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 02:15 PM)Rishi Wrote:      U do understand dat they are part of same country

Yea, but I afraid they do not understand that they are part of same country...

They do.. But d govt. have advertised the Asiatic lions as symbol of Gujrati people far too much, for far too long..
While it did its magic, helping 2 increase their numbers 10+fold & created an atmosphere of mutual man-animal respect, nothing like which the World had ever seen before...it had its downsides.

At this point it's a matter of Gujrati pride, arguably the stubbornest of all us Indians!!! 
(PS: I don't support their selfishness, but just being practical here.. ) Reply

[Ba Ba Lou]

pckts.

It was you that posted claims from wildlife experts and kesri singh that the Bengal tiger drove the Asiatic lion out of Kuno, which  IS NOT true. You posted half truth on kesri singh's account, but you did not post the other guy that boldchamp mentions. I simply responded to your post, which is what is done on this site. Now I implore you to tell the truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing but the truth, so GOD help you. Reply

[Rishi]

(02-08-2017, 07:28 AM)Ba Ba Lou Wrote: pckts.
It was you that posted claims from wildlife experts and kesri singh that the Bengal tiger drove the Asiatic lion out of Kuno, which  IS NOT true. You posted half truth on kesri singh's account, but you did not post the other guy that boldchamp mentions. I simply responded to your post, which is what is done on this site. Now I implore you to tell the truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you GOD.

Well, it's pretty plausible.

Suppose an old pride-male, (or two) from a prized territory is ousted by a young Tiger, then the females will most likely choose to shift home range in presence of a hostile animal & absence of their mate. 
Now all the new champion has to do is wait, until a young tigress, ousted by her mother & stronger sisters, looking for new lands & mate arrive.

On the other hand if an old Tiger gets replaced by a nomadic coalition, they will have achieved nothing! (unless there is a lion-pride residing nearby, in which case they will have to fight their males AGAIN & possibly relocate there.) 

As any new youngadult lioness will stay latched to her home-pride even after she grows up, territorial expansion can only be possible after a pride overgrows it's capacity & splits.

Lions take over prides, while tigers take over territories. 

I'd love to see what role that factor plays... Reply

[Ba Ba Lou]

Rishi,


That's your OPINION, you have no RELIABLE documented eyewitness accounts to back your opinion. Whereas I have RELIABLE documented eyewitness accounts including an account from a tiger EXPERT
Dr. Kalish Sankhala who says a male Bengal tiger is NO match for a male Asiatic lion. Reply