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Asiatic Lion - Data, Pictures & Videos
Asiatic Lion - Data, Pictures & Videos
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Asiatic Lion - Data, Pictures & Videos
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 (05-03-2018, 05:50 AM)Rishi Wrote: @Wolverine Really? I think you've missed the ninth one from below! Yea, that specimen also radiate "savage" power. In general I have to admit that lions more than any other cats and probably more than any other predator in the nature radiate brutal, rough, primordial energy. If we put aside scientific approach and look on them aestethicaly lions are flesh-eating monsters... Buddy, why don't you make a visit to Gir forest and Kuno, also you can by the way briefly visit famous Somnath temple, not very far away from Gir on the coast, and check on place what is situation with lion protection? From west to east coast of India will probably take you 2-3 days with train.  (05-03-2018, 07:59 AM)Wolverine Wrote: Buddy, why don't you make a visit to Gir forest and Kuno, also you can by the way briefly visit famous Somnath temple, not very far away from Gir on the coast, and check on place what is situation with lion protection? From west to east coast of India will probably take you 2-3 days with train. Ain't gonna happen anytime soon. I won't need to either... During that i intend to wrangle out as much info possible, including those & also their size/weight. The presently available data is odiously insufficient.
Majesty is in the attitude!
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 *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
(05-06-2018, 11:59 PM)epaiva Wrote: Hi @ Rishi Sorry man, i've no idea! Natural History not my area of expertise. So i don't know the procedure to access them, nor if it's even allowed for non-researchers. I know there are samples in Bombay & British Natural History Museums, Field Museum of Natural History (Chicago) & Sakkarbaug zoo collections etc. from THIS book. This is all i have on it.  *This image is copyright of its original author But you could ask @peter. In post #93 of this thread, he said that he'd measured multiple Asiatic lion skulls in European museums of natural history.  (05-07-2018, 05:33 PM)Rishi Wrote:@Rishi(05-06-2018, 11:59 PM)epaiva Wrote: Hi @ Rishi Thanks a lot my Friend 
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SKULLS OF INDIAN AND AFRICAN LIONS (males)
a) Lions and tigers A number of years ago, I visited a biologist with an impressive collection in Belgium. After we had measured all skulls, we took a day to describe all of them. Although we saw differences between skulls from different regions, lion skulls seem quite uniform in many respects. There are, however, distinct differences between skulls of African and Indian lions. b) Greatest total length Pocock (1939) measured a few skulls of wild Indian lions. Male skulls averaged about 340 mm. in greatest total length. The ones I measured, belonged to captive old males. They averaged about 360 mm. I propose to settle for an average of 345 mm. for now. Although skulls of wild males from South Africa average about 380 mm. in greatest total length, the average for all of Africa could be 355-360 mm., meaby closer to 360. The difference between Africa and India, therefore, could be 10-15 mm. in favour of Africa. Seen from the perspective of India, Africa has 3-5% in the skull department. Male Kruger lions have about 10% on the Indians, but they average 410-420 pounds, whereas male Indian lions average 350-360. Seen from the perspective of the Indians, the difference is 17%. One could say the Indians have relatively long skulls and be close, that is. c) Structure Compared to skulls of wild African lions, skulls of captive Indian lions have (significantly) longer faces. The os frontalis (the large bone on top of the skull) is larger, wider and heavier. The 'drop' directly behind the os frontalis often is much more pronounced than in African skulls. The occiput is smaller and, in particular, narrower. Partly as a result of the long face, the braincase seems to be relatively short. What is seen in male skulls, is also seen in skulls of (captive) females. I also saw a skull of a wild male. Same story. l'll post a few photographs when I have time. (05-07-2018, 08:30 PM)peter Wrote: THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SKULLS OF INDIAN AND AFRICAN LIONS (males)@peter Thanks a lot for your valuable information (05-07-2018, 08:30 PM)peter Wrote: ...whereas male Indian lions average 350-360. Where are you sourcing that information from? Declaration of average weight needs extensive study! Most concrete modern data i have, is that the weight ranges from 150kg-225kg for males & 100-150kg for females (Source1, Source2, etc). Anyway, after reading your post yesterday, i contacted few of the most qualified people in the field. Dr. Jhala replied that he's traveling till 18th & would go through is database once he's back! I'm expecting to be able to present some Meena Venkataraman (researcher, you've seen her in "Last Lions of India" documenary) & Dr. D. Solanki (vet of Sasan Gir Rescue Centre) haven't responded yet. (05-09-2018, 08:17 AM)Rishi Wrote: Where are you sourcing that information from? 1 - PANTHERA LEO PERSICA - SIZE 1a - How to get to good information I visit forums, buy books, read articles and papers on the internet, talk to those with a similar interest, measure skulls in museums and visit big cat facilities. Everything I have, is filed. Information on a species is kept in one place.This way of working has big advantages and often results in original information. Information is a tool. 1b - Weights of captive male Indian lions: a research paper published in 2009 I recently found two papers that have information about the weight of captive Indian lions. One of these was published in 2009. Below is a bad scan (apologies) of a page that has reliable information. It says that 22 captive male Indian lions in 6 Indian zoos ranged between 140-180 kg. (310-398 pounds). They averaged 163,9 kg. (just over 361 pounds). The table at the bottom of the page says that all captive big cats used for the study ranged between 3-12 years of age:  *This image is copyright of its original author 1c - Weights of captive male Indian lions - forums Before I started this forum with Sanjay, I was a member of AVA. I also visited other animals forums every now and then. One poster interested in the size of Indian lions called himself 'Spirit Lion'. Here's a scan of a table he posted some years ago. Although he didn't provide details, he strongly suggested that the information had been collected by biologists:  *This image is copyright of its original author The table doesn't, as suggested, have weights of 19 male lions (nr. 12 and 18 are missing), but 17. Of these, 4 were zoo animals. They ranged between 148-170 kg. and averaged 160,75 kg. (just over 354 pounds). The 13 wild male lions ranged between 146-184 kg. and averaged 156,31 kg. (just over 347 pounds). The 4 zoo lions (average 160,75 kg. or 354 pounds) more or less compared to the 22 males mentioned above (163,9 kg. or just over 361 pounds). The average of all 26 captive males is 163,42 kg. or just over 360 pounds (range 140-184 kg.). 1d - Weights of wild male Indian lions The 13 wild males mentioned in 1c averaged 156,31 kg. or just over 347 pounds. Anything else on the weight of wild male Indian lions? The answer is no. There's one report about a short, but very heavy male of 490 pounds (...), but that's about it. For some reason, Indian biologists never published anything on the weight of wild male Indian lions. 1e - Length of wild male Indian lions Anything known about the length of wild male Indian lions? Yes. The table below was posted by the same poster who posted the weight table ('Spirit Lion'). The 4 wild male Gir lions averaged 262,25 cm. in total length (about 8.75) and 180,75 cm. (almost 5.11) in head and body:  *This image is copyright of its original author Were they measured 'over curves' or 'between pegs'? My guess is they were measured in a straight line ('between pegs'). Here's more. The lions in the table below were measured 'between pegs' as well:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author The information is from this series published in the JBNHS:  *This image is copyright of its original author 1f - Length of wild male Indian lions shot by hunters So far, hunters were not mentioned. But they knew about Gir lions as well. L.L. Fenton wrote about his experience in the JBNHS. The longest male he shot was 9.5 in total length measured 'between pegs'. Two other males, measured in the same way, were 9.1 and 9.0. In the page scanned and posted below, he compared the skull of his 9.5 lion with the skull of a 9.8 tiger he shot in North Kanara:  *This image is copyright of its original author Here's a scan of a letter published in the JBNHS. This is the longest Gir lion I know of measured 'between pegs':  *This image is copyright of its original author 1g - Length of wild male Gir lions - the difference between hunters and others Before conservation became an issue, hunting was quite popular in British India. In the days of the British Raj, it was related to status and all that. Although it might have affected the size of some big cats, my guess is that cheating wasn't done. If you were involved in cheating in some way, it was game over. And back then, game over was game over. It can't be denied that well-known hunters often produced longer and heavier animals than others. In some cases (Maharajahs and royalty), the sheer scale of operation had an effect. Same for the know-how of many invisible assistents. In the great majority of cases, however, size was largely related to experience, knowledge, time invested and chance. That and the decision to focus on the most impressive individuals in your letters. All in all, I have 31 measurements I consider reliable: those collected by Dharmakumarsinhji and Wynter-Blyth (n=20), those posted by 'Spirit Lion' (n=4) and those I found in letters of hunters published in the JBNHS (n=9). The average of Dharmakumarsinhji and Wynter-Blyth (263,74 cm.) compares to the average of 'Spirit Lion' (262,25 cm.). The hunters average 277,64 cm. As all lions had been measured in the same way ('between pegs'), I added all measurements. The result (n=31) is 267,58 cm. (just short of 8.10). The difference between hunters and others is almost 6 inches. Experienced hunters tended to focus on large individuals, whereas records of others often included the lame and the cripple. 1h - Skull The 9.5 lion shot by Fenton had a skull with a greatest total length of 13.4. Not much different from the skulls Pocock measured:  *This image is copyright of its original author For now, the conclusion is that wild male Indian lions average 330-340 mm. in greatest total skull length, 8.7-8.8 in total length (measured in a straight line) and 347 pounds. Captive male Indian lions seem to be a bit heavier (360 pounds versus 347). I measured 3 skulls of captive male Indian lions. They averaged about 360 mm. in greatest total skull length. The owners might have been exceptional animals, but my guess is that the remarkable length of the skull was a result of age: all 3 males were very old when they perished. I don't doubt that some wild male Indian lions far exceed the averages mentioned in this post, but there is no good information. The information of 'Spirit Lion', by the way, seems to be recent. My guess is he had contacts in India. One more remark to finish the post. Based on what was posted, one could conclude there is a difference between young adults (4-5) and mature males (6 and over) in all departments (body length, weight and greatest skull length). In this respect, P. tigris, P. leo and P. pardus definitely compare. (05-09-2018, 01:54 PM)peter. Wrote: Did you really think I'll post crap in something I co-created? Any more questions on sources? Any remarks on the validity of the sources perhaps? Firstly, stop taking offence where none is meant. I asked for source, because i needed to know what time it was from. A bunch of links, or even names would have sufficed! And yes, it is very old data, from when the lion population was barely back from the brink, 1/6th of what it's today. That's the reason i'd asked... to find when it was from. I think many here are at agreement that Bengal tiger size might have increased in the past century as the crash of numbers was arrested. I feel there's a greater need to gather new data on the lions too. Thanks for the information bombardment though. It wasn't necessary, but it's appreciated! Sooo, would you consider editing out the scolding part?
RISHI
You're right. I edited my previous post. This one has an apology as well. As to the effect of numbers (population size) on size. Individual variation could be an indicator of a bottleneck in the recent past. It's present in Panthera leo persica, but not in Panthera tigris altaica (referring to wild animals). This is a good thread (good work), but we need recent information on size (wild animals). See what you can do. (05-09-2018, 06:40 PM)peter Wrote: RISHI Right now, all i can do is wait. But i always visit the zoos in every city i travel to! If what "Spirit Lion" weight chart says is true & the captive lions' weight are indeed comparable to their wild counterparts, then i can't but dare speculate a bit based on the available data. Because that's what got me asking questions in the first place... The previous male of Delhi was one of India's smallest. The lower limit of 140kg you provided seems fitting. London Zoo's current male Bhanu is about 150kg (mentioned in video). Most captive lions in India are of Prague Zoo's Jamvan size, sent in 2016 at 3-years-old, whom @Amnon242 estimated to be 150-160 kg. ...compared to their older lion Paris (died this February at age of 15) who weighed 178kg a year before this footage. While London's male Lucifer was 30 Stones (190kg) in 2014, before being moved. Sakkarbaug zoo might be holding an even bigger one, but i have nothing on him. 
I add a video: the asiatic lions of the Zurich zoo. The actual male lion seems big (I remember the previous one smaller).
(05-09-2018, 08:17 AM)Rishi Wrote: It will be interesting to know the opinion of Dr Jhala & other professionals, but I don't think we should expect any sensations... Unlike tiger lion is a monotypic specie, differences in size and weight of different sub-species are small to insignificant, a dozen kg more or dozen kg less is not a big deal... More significant differences could be expected only in case if lions inhabit islands - Insular Dwarfism as we can see with Sunda tigers or if some lions inhabit a really cold habitats - Bergman's rule as they did during last Ace age. But as we know lions don't inhabit islands and all contemporary lion sub-species inhabit only warm climate habitats. So despite the wide spread believe tending to underestimate Asiatic lion most probably all currently existing lion sub-species on the planet are pretty much the same. I have visited Gir forest for 2 weeks as a tourist back in the 90's and have seen those lions, they have same size as African lions in the zoo. Is average weight of Asiatic lion 175 kg or is average weight 185 kg ... is not a reason somebody to loose his good sleep, and also these digits could change during decades according to prey availability. Uniqueness of Asiatic lion is in fact that its not only a animal specie but a cultural phenomenon. Asiatic lions are the ones depicted on bas-reliefs of Assiria, Babilonia and Ancient Persia, Asiatic lions (along with Barbary lions) were the beasts fighting with gladiators on arenas of Ancient Rome and in their claws and teeth were thrown first Christians. I mean that Asiatic lion is interesting not only for animal lovers but for those who like history. |
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