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Are Tigers 'Brainier' Than Lions?
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 (05-25-2014, 11:40 PM)'sanjay' Wrote: It may be your personal view, but i think almost all cats are of equal intelligence level. By seeing the diversity and hunting style of leopard my personal opinion is that leopard are little smarter, may be it is not related to intelligence. hehe, well it's a common fact for me to encounter tiger fans or Indian natives to be blinded by their own preferences.You try to push the solitary cat = more intelligent ...deal. Intelligence even among predators comes in many forms, in the case of the lions is way adavanced. The social factor when one lioness can nurse the cubs of another one, so that a hunting party can provide for the team is only one example of the lions superiority, intelligence wise. Regarding the hunting styles, a lion can easily hunt in any manner of the other big cats, but ofc, been a prime predator, he was not forced to evolve in a ''tree hugger'', so yes the leopard may be a more ''specatacular'' hunter, that's not intelligence but more of an adaptation to the superior enemies. 
Jinen, This forum is not for furious discussion. And never bring whole country people in discussion. Neither you nor me are most genius people on earth with our knowledge. All the discussion between you and me is debatable across world and each animals have fans that support his/her preferred animal but at the same time he/she should also respect other views. after all these are not facts, This is debate
I know you love lions but that doesn't mean you are right and every other person should agree with you, your information is not well written theory, its just another information that you gathered so far due to your preference on lions. I respect it. I request you please keep good debate here and use soft language. (05-26-2014, 12:03 AM)'sanjay' Wrote: Jinen, This forum is not for furious discussion. And never bring whole country people in discussion. Neither you nor me are most genius people on earth with our knowledge. All the discussion between you and me is debatable across world and each animals have fans that support his/her preferred animal but at the same time he/she should also respect other views. after all these are not facts, This is debateThen stop pushing the all ''tiger is slightly bigger'' than a lion and everything should go hand in hand with that propaganda. In the case of intelligence you totally nailed it, lions are pretty much a SWAT team of the big cats world. BIG SKULL, TIGERZZ BRAINER?? YEZ IM INDIA. I'm sorry but it's obvious.
If you are not blind you can see this is publish article on famous website related to science, Just go and read the source, I just put it here. I am not favoring any animal here. I again urge you don't use hard words. This website is not for child activity, this is for discussion
(05-26-2014, 12:17 AM)'sanjay' Wrote: If you are not blind you can see this is publish article on famous website related to science, Just go and read the source, I just put it here. You put it there to enforce your beliefs, /see the topic title. It's funny how tiger fans are always in need to open new forums, to permanently sustain their insecurities, the endless quest of proving how on ''average'' everything related to lion is inferior to the tiger. This forum is actually just a new AvA , but in the long run...no lion supporter will ever post here because they see the big picture: the staff members are either T fans or ''natives'' that like their home-made ''on average'' scientific tables. This is just your same ol Tiger propaganda crappy forum, with natives and T fans and what comes with them, ex: larger brain = smarter animal. Pathetic. 
HOW TO RESPOND TO A POST
1 - READ THE POST AND DO IT AGAIN The lead post says " ... The team investigated the relation between the skull size ... of a large sample of tigers, lions, leopards and jaguars and the volume inside the cats' respective craniums ... ". The researchers had not expected that tigers have a much bigger relative brain size " ... than do the other three species ... ". They were surprised to find that " ... tiny female Balinese tiger skulls have cranial volumes as large as those of huge male southern African male lion skulls ... ". What is so surprising about the large cranial volume of the tiger? " ... It has sometimes been assumed that social species, such as lions, should have larger brains than solitary species, such as tigers, because of the need to handle a more complex social life within groups or prides. However, despite a few studies suggesting a relationship between big brains and sociality in mammals, evidence for the link is far from clear ... ". Meaning there is no direct link between relative brain size and social behaviour in mammals after all. At least, not in big cats. So what now? " ... The next step for the researchers is to try to answer whether such a difference can be explained by intrageneric variation or merely by chance. If not by chance, then it raises the question why the tiger evolved a relatively bigger brain ... after the tiger's ancestor split from the common ancestor to the other three species ... ". 2 - MAKE A SUMMARY OF THE LEAD POST The lead post says researchers were surprised to find that tigers, compared to the other three species of Panthera (lion, jaguar and leopard) have a relatively larger cranial volume. Why were they surprised? They were surprised because some studies suggested that social mammals, like lions, need a larger brain than solitary mammals, like tigers, in order to handle a more complex social life. Not true, so it seems. Researchers want to know if the difference in cranial volume is a result of intrageneric variation or a result of chance. Meaning they don't understand the relationship between brain volume and social behaviour in big cats. 3 - CAPTURE THE CORE IN ONE SENTENCE, START A DEBATE AND USE ARGUMENTS ONLY The core is solitary tigers have relatively bigger brains than other big cats, including the social lion. The question is why. Start a debate by discussing an idea. When you debate, concentrate on ideas only. The reason is they can accepted or rejected. Everything else can't. Knowledge is about ideas. 4 - JINEN After AVA was destroyed, I started a new forum with Sanjay. We's partners and want to create a good forum. Good is good members, good info and good debates. We only just started and had no debates so far. In order to debate, you need to be able to read and deduct first. After that, you need a good opponent, good ideas, good arguments and interaction. Very difficult at the best of times. If you fail in one department, problems are real close. You decided to skip reading, deducting and thinking and went for the 16-inchers right away. The result is you killed a possible debate and insulted both Sanjay and Guate for no reason at all. Moron. You got one day to repair the damage. If not, it's a one-way back to hacking school in Transsylvania.  (05-26-2014, 01:40 AM)'Jinenfordragon' Wrote:Jinenfordragon, IF you don't like the place, you can leave. And if you don't leave in peace, I will kick you out! You have been warned, I am not going to say it twice.(05-26-2014, 12:17 AM)'sanjay' Wrote: If you are not blind you can see this is publish article on famous website related to science, Just go and read the source, I just put it here.
HOW TO RESPOND TO A POST (b)
In the lead post, the researchers found a popular assumption regarding brain size and social life to be untrue in lion and tiger skulls in that the solitary tiger had more cranial volume than the social lion. The question is why. In this post, a few possible reasons are discussed. 1 - TIGERS ARE MORE SOCIAL THAN IS ASSUMED Yudakov and Nikolaev ('Winter Ecology of the Amur tiger', second revised edition, 2012) concluded that Amur tigers could be more social than was assumed: " ... According to our data, a tiger population 'group' consisted of 5-8 animals, including cubs. A resident male's home range was about 600-800 km2, whereas females had home ranges of up to 300-400 km2. These home ranges were generally exclusive. Male and female territories overlapped widely; in fact the core areas of resident males and females coincided, and they shared the same trails and maintained regular contact. Spatially, tiger population structure appeared to be comprised of monogamous pairs, or perhaps polygamous males with two or more females ... " (pp. 176). 2 - LIONS ARE LESS SOCIAL THAN IS ASSUMED In most parts of Africa, lions live in unforested regions. It isn't easy to hunt in regions without much cover. You need either speed or groups in order to stand a chance. Lions decided for groups, also in order to be able to defend a territory. In mammals living in groups, specialisation is more or less common. Lionesses, because of their smaller size and greater speed, usually hunt, whereas pride males decided for defence and adapted for that purpose. Young lionesses do not often disperse, whereas young males, in order to prevent inbreeding, do. Young males often live in bachelor groups. When the individuals have reached maturity, they try to take over a pride. In this way, inbreeding is prevented. Pride males don't reign for long. In order to spread their genes, they often patrol their territory and inspect territories of other prides. Many pride males mate with females of other prides. 3 - THERE IS NO RELATION BETWEEN LIFE STYLE AND BRAIN SIZE We could assume there's a relation between life style and brain size and we could assume every species has what is needed to survive. Perhaps there is no relation between brain size and life style at all. If there is, brain development could be more important than brain size. Brain development could be related to life style, but it's just as likely there are other, more important, factors. We don't know. 4 - TIGER SKULLS ARE MORE VAULTED Lions have flatter and longer skulls than tigers, but tiger skulls are more vaulted at the orbit. For this reason, they have more cranial volume. Skull size, therefore, depends on what is measured. Another question is why tigers have more vaulted skulls with bigger brains. Perhaps tigers combine hunting with playing the piano and doing crosswords at the same time, but that won't bring down a deer. My take is a solitary hunter needs something special in order to stand a chance and in tigers it could have been a more vaulted skull. The vault enables the tiger to deliver more pressure at the tip of the canines, which would have more room to grow longer as well. This would result in a more lethal bite and, in the long run, less energy needed for hunting. Social cats, on the other hand, don't need special treats. They need something to surprise and hold a struggling animal, allowing the others to finish the job. A skull made for mauling and holding would do just fine. Besides, a long skull could be of use when you are a male investing a lot of time in display. 5 - TIGERS NEED BIGGER BRAINS IN ORDER TO ADAPT, WHEREAS LIONS DO NOT Trainers told me tigers usually are more 'intelligent' than lions. When I asked more questions, I concluded they mean tigers are more observative animals who better understand what you want. A tiger, as a loner, needs to be more observative and interactive. It pays in more than one way and trainers know. Lions are not that interested in humans. When you are a male living in a pride (also in captivity), you need to know what other males are up to and you need to know when a female is in heat. This counts, whereas contacts with other animals or humans do not. When you interact, it isn't friendly most of the time. Interacting in a pride is about very basic things like women and mating and there's no doubt authority has a function when you are a male lion. Lions live in a different world than tigers. A world that doesn't include humans. We could conclude lions, and males in particular, are less intelligent than tigers. But wild lions have amazed many researchers and hunters many times. The reason is it pays to be intelligent in that situation. Intelligence, therefore, depends on definition and situation and it doesn't show in being able to play the piano in your free time. It shows in crucial situations in wild animals interacting with humans and there's no question both lions and tigers have outwitted humans on many occasions. Regards, Boris  *This image is copyright of its original author And Mbwene  *This image is copyright of its original author
(05-26-2014, 01:40 AM)'Jinenfordragon' Wrote:(05-26-2014, 12:17 AM)'sanjay' Wrote: If you are not blind you can see this is publish article on famous website related to science, Just go and read the source, I just put it here. People like you is neither fan of lion nor of any other animal. You are so full of jealous and hate that you always throw it to other if you get slightly any chance. You are one who will insult any one if he is not according to your views. I suggest you to leave this forum, Yes I say this is tiger fan forum, but at least they have love and respect for both animals, not like you who hate those innocent animals who are endangered. This is warning to you. As mods have already given you warning you should either respect forum or better leave out. You are not a lion fan you are biggest crap who are actual responsible for destruction of good things.  (05-26-2014, 10:50 AM)sanjay Wrote: Well said @peter , your description support the lead post. I amazed how people like jinen always ready to fight without having a fraction of knowledge about their preferred animal. I hope this forum will be free from all this childish "tiger vs lion" flames... 
This is fanatical nonsense that we were trying to get away from on this forum. Once again, I specifically make mention to Dr. Antle who states that he can see how much smarter tigers are than lions as well as Saffoee, both of which defeat the debate of "larger brain size doesn't = smarter" since it has nothing to do with brain anatomy, simply observations from eye witnessed accounts. The larger brain size just backs their observations.
Realistically, until an accurate feline IQ test is developed, its all conjecture. I'm of the belief
cats - not unlike like humans - intellect will vary significantly amongst individuals. Just my opinion  (05-27-2014, 09:40 PM)Pckts Wrote: This is fanatical nonsense that we were trying to get away from on this forum. Once again, I specifically make mention to Dr. Antle who states that he can see how much smarter tigers are than lions as well as Saffoee, both of which defeat the debate of "larger brain size doesn't = smarter" since it has nothing to do with brain anatomy, simply observations from eye witnessed accounts. The larger brain size just backs their observations. What is Dr. Antle's objective criteria to determine that Tigers are smarter than Lions?
Intelligence is a very subjective matter. In fact, nor even human intelligence can be measured reliably. I know dumb people that have won intelligence tests and other smart people that have come with bad notes.
Animals are no different, there are smart animals and dumb animals, although these last ones are prone to die, even by they own hand! Are tiger more intelligent than lions? Not too sure, but what I have saw is that tigers are not the solitary and shy cats that the myth states and lions are not the territorial group warriors that the popular thought states. It is a fact that tigers have significant large brains than lions, however some people stated before that this is not relevant as even Neanderthals have "larger" brains that humans, but this is, in fact, an exaggeration. The difference between the brain of the Neanderthal and that of the modern human is close to nothing and they sizes are very similar, but the difference of the brains in tigers and lions is much more dramatic: a tiny 100 kg Bali tiger have a larger brain than a 250 kg male lion! There must be an evolutionary significance for this, and I think that peter hit the nail in his post. However, I think that the truth can be even more deep and incredible. The study of Yamaguchi only scratched the surface, and we must take in count that while the popular idea is that tigers and lions are indistinguishable, in fact, these two cats are the most separated in the evolutionary line of the great cats. This is a very interesting debate and I will like to see how much information can we get, BUT take this in count: 1. Backup your statements with data. 2. Respect the other posters and use good language. 3. IF ANYONE broke this, I will crush him! I am NOT joking. I will be watching.  *This image is copyright of its original author |
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