Ape Strength: Myth vs Reality

[Roberto]

ok, first of all, the largest gorilla subspecie, the Eastern lowland gorilla, they can reach a max weight of about 550 lbs, so at max weights its not much different the modern lions/tigers.

http://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&j...a-weigh%2F

Researchgate:  The Strength of Great Apes and the Speed of Humans

The musculoskeletal system of mammals can be adapted for either strength or speed, BUT NOT BOTH. great apes (like bears), have evolved for strength, big cats have evolved for speed, this is clear.

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26883094_The_Strength_of_Great_Apes_and_the_Speed_of_Humans/amp&ved=2ahUKEwj_h9XZ3_bkAhVHY6wKHURrAIAQFjACegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw0Fn8wQ_O9HgontsBmiZtF6&cf=1 Reply

[Shadow]

(09-30-2019, 12:43 AM)Roberto Wrote: ok, first of all, the largest gorilla subspecie, the Eastern lowland gorilla, they can reach a max weight of about 550 lbs, so at max weights its not much different the modern lions/tigers.

http://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&j...a-weigh%2F

Researchgate:  The Strength of Great Apes and the Speed of Humans

The musculoskeletal system of mammals can be adapted for either stregth or speed, BUT NOT BOTH. great apes (like bears), have evolved for strength, big cats have evolved for speed, this is clear.

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.researchgate.net/publication/26883094_The_Strength_of_Great_Apes_and_the_Speed_of_Humans/amp

It would be interesting to see whole study, because there is more recent study, giving results that chimpanzees are about 1,5 times stronger than humans "pound for pound" and muscle fibers 1,35 times stronger. That study say 4 times, but there is no source for that claim. Is that from those old "studies" from 1920 or something like that?

And 550 lbs, there have been some which might have been that much, older and pretty fat looking gorillas, while lions and tigers at 550 lbs are still fit and more muscle compared to body weight than gorillas have. Younger prime gorillas look more fit, but then again also not as heavy as those older ones. But even though I am not sure if there are confirmed gorillas even 500 lbs, I believe too, that some well fed individuals can be in those weights.

But it looks like, that there is nothing to back up claims, that gorillas would be extraordinary strong when compared to other strong animals. Of course they are strong, but any animal in between 150-200 kg is strong :) Reply

[Shadow]

@tigerluver would you happen to have full text of this study?

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26883094_The_Strength_of_Great_Apes_and_the_Speed_of_Humans

It would be nice to read if possible. Reply

[tigerluver]

(09-30-2019, 01:42 AM)Shadow Wrote: @tigerluver would you happen to have full text of this study?

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26883094_The_Strength_of_Great_Apes_and_the_Speed_of_Humans

It would be nice to read if possible.

I've attached the paper! Reply

[Shadow]

(09-30-2019, 02:28 AM)tigerluver Wrote:

(09-30-2019, 01:42 AM)Shadow Wrote: @tigerluver would you happen to have full text of this study?

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26883094_The_Strength_of_Great_Apes_and_the_Speed_of_Humans

It would be nice to read if possible.

I've attached the paper!

Thanks!

Not the most convincing study, I have to say. Reply

[Roberto]

(09-30-2019, 02:42 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(09-30-2019, 02:28 AM)tigerluver Wrote:

(09-30-2019, 01:42 AM)Shadow Wrote: @tigerluver would you happen to have full text of this study?

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26883094_The_Strength_of_Great_Apes_and_the_Speed_of_Humans

It would be nice to read if possible.

I've attached the paper!

Thanks!

Not the most convincing study, I have to say.

why not? Alan Walker is an evolutionary biologist. Does not get much better than that. Reply

[Shadow]

(09-30-2019, 02:52 AM)Roberto Wrote:

(09-30-2019, 02:42 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(09-30-2019, 02:28 AM)tigerluver Wrote:

(09-30-2019, 01:42 AM)Shadow Wrote: @tigerluver would you happen to have full text of this study?

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26883094_The_Strength_of_Great_Apes_and_the_Speed_of_Humans

It would be nice to read if possible.

I've attached the paper!

Thanks!

Not the most convincing study, I have to say.

why not? Alan Walker is an evolutionary biologist. Does not get much better than that.

Because he was quoting those old tests. And he seemed to be making only hypotheses without testing anything himself with research team.

This is more recent study:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317947724_Chimpanzee_super_strength_and_human_skeletal_muscle_evolution

I created this thread in hope to see something concrete which would show some glimpse about it, that how strong gorilla is compared to other animals. Because I haven´t seen any footage in which gorilla would have shown some extraordinary strength. I think, that we all have seen those "normal" videos, in which some people are like "Whoa", but which in reality don´t show anything extraordinary. Some banana tree bitten and then ripped to pieces or one zoo glass shattering (who knows how old) as those do sometimes aren´t something unique. Reply

[Roberto]

i understand your point, but if he was quoting those old tests, this means he thought they were reliable. Else he would have not quoted those tests and put his reputation on the line. Reply

[Shadow]

(09-30-2019, 03:10 AM)Roberto Wrote: i understand your point, but if he was quoting those old tests, this means he thought they were reliable. Else he would have not quoted those tests and put his reputation on the line.

Maybe he thought and made a mistake then. His suggestion is very different when comparing to that study I linked. And if I have understood right, those old studies aren´t considered as reliable by many. Reply

[Shadow]

It has been nice to see, that this topic is interesting. Still a reminder, this thread is created for postings about strength of a gorilla and for information concerning it. Not for information concerning behavior or predation situations unless some incident includes information about actions in which gorilla has showed how strong it is. That would be lifting, throwing or breaking something. For instance aggressive behavior alone isn´t proving anything. Many animals act aggressively in certain situations, but that alone tells nothing about it, that how strong they are. 

This thread is about it, that some people have in past made claims, like that gorilla would be even up to 20 times stronger than humans, some say 3 times, some 6 times.... but no-one has been really able to prove anything. Just hypothesis after hypothesis without real proof. Like myth, which even zookeepers or was it director said in sad case concerning Harambe, that gorilla could break a coconut crushing it in hand. Still in different clips gorillas use rocks to break coconuts. 

One hypothesis is something like that, that gorilla could lift even 2000 kg, first it seems to have been, that from ground and in time some people seemed to change it, that gorilla could lift such weight overhead. Same time there seems to be no proof to show, that gorilla would have lifted even a few hundred kg. Guinness Book of Records had at least one time hypothesis, that gorilla could lift over 800 kg, but also that is only hypothesis as far as I know. 

So depending about sources, hypotheses are variating quite a lot. Looks like, that reason is more or less it, that there simply isn´t information. So it´s very interesting to try to find out if there is anything, which would undeniable show something. I haven´t found so far practically anything proving, that gorilla would be stronger than other strong animals. Still even some articles give statements, that gorilla is in top 10 pound for pound, what comes to strong animals. But those articles give no good reasoning, nothing concrete (imo at least, I´m not convinced at all). It has to be remembered, that headlines sell and not all reporters are too eager to find real information, when good headline is all what is needed with some vague content. Reply

[BorneanTiger]

(09-30-2019, 10:07 PM)Shadow Wrote: It has been nice to see, that this topic is interesting. Still a reminder, this thread is created for postings about strength of a gorilla and for information concerning it. Not for information concerning behavior or predation situations unless some incident includes information about actions in which gorilla has showed how strong it is. That would be lifting, throwing or breaking something. For instance aggressive behavior alone isn´t proving anything. Many animals act aggressively in certain situations, but that alone tells nothing about it, that how strong they are. 

This thread is about it, that some people have in past made claims, like that gorilla would be even up to 20 times stronger than humans, some say 3 times, some 6 times.... but no-one has been really able to prove anything. Just hypothesis after hypothesis without real proof. Like myth, which even zookeepers or was it director said in sad case concerning Harambe, that gorilla could break a coconut crushing it in hand. Still in different clips gorillas use rocks to break coconuts. 

One hypothesis is something like that, that gorilla could lift even 2000 kg, first it seems to have been, that from ground and in time some people seemed to change it, that gorilla could lift such weight overhead. Same time there seems to be no proof to show, that gorilla would have lifted even a few hundred kg. Guinness Book of Records had at least one time hypothesis, that gorilla could lift over 800 kg, but also that is only hypothesis as far as I know. 

So depending about sources, hypotheses are variating quite a lot. Looks like, that reason is more or less it, that there simply isn´t information. So it´s very interesting to try to find out if there is anything, which would undeniable show something. I haven´t found so far practically anything proving, that gorilla would be stronger than other strong animals. Still even some articles give statements, that gorilla is in top 10 pound for pound, what comes to strong animals. But those articles give no good reasoning, nothing concrete (imo at least, I´m not convinced at all). It has to be remembered, that headlines sell and not all reporters are too eager to find real information, when good headline is all what is needed with some vague content.

So far, the only case where the gorilla has outclassed other animals in strength that I know of is in breaking glass: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/o...ore-escape, https://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/17/us/go...index.html

Other animals used objects rather then their own arms or bodies to breaks glass:

Reply

[Shadow]

(09-30-2019, 10:58 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:

(09-30-2019, 10:07 PM)Shadow Wrote: It has been nice to see, that this topic is interesting. Still a reminder, this thread is created for postings about strength of a gorilla and for information concerning it. Not for information concerning behavior or predation situations unless some incident includes information about actions in which gorilla has showed how strong it is. That would be lifting, throwing or breaking something. For instance aggressive behavior alone isn´t proving anything. Many animals act aggressively in certain situations, but that alone tells nothing about it, that how strong they are. 

This thread is about it, that some people have in past made claims, like that gorilla would be even up to 20 times stronger than humans, some say 3 times, some 6 times.... but no-one has been really able to prove anything. Just hypothesis after hypothesis without real proof. Like myth, which even zookeepers or was it director said in sad case concerning Harambe, that gorilla could break a coconut crushing it in hand. Still in different clips gorillas use rocks to break coconuts. 

One hypothesis is something like that, that gorilla could lift even 2000 kg, first it seems to have been, that from ground and in time some people seemed to change it, that gorilla could lift such weight overhead. Same time there seems to be no proof to show, that gorilla would have lifted even a few hundred kg. Guinness Book of Records had at least one time hypothesis, that gorilla could lift over 800 kg, but also that is only hypothesis as far as I know. 

So depending about sources, hypotheses are variating quite a lot. Looks like, that reason is more or less it, that there simply isn´t information. So it´s very interesting to try to find out if there is anything, which would undeniable show something. I haven´t found so far practically anything proving, that gorilla would be stronger than other strong animals. Still even some articles give statements, that gorilla is in top 10 pound for pound, what comes to strong animals. But those articles give no good reasoning, nothing concrete (imo at least, I´m not convinced at all). It has to be remembered, that headlines sell and not all reporters are too eager to find real information, when good headline is all what is needed with some vague content.

So far, the only case where the gorilla has outclassed other animals in strength that I know of is in breaking glass with its own strength:

There are cases of a brown bear and polar bear breaking glass at zoos, but they used rocks to do so:

It jumped on that glass and those glasses can be worn out in time or have manufacturing defects. Zoo personnel have told, that those glasses have to be changed time to time. If gorillas could break those glasses by their strength, I think that we would have a lot of broken glasses. Not just one case. When only one case, impossible to know what was reason. Of course when 150-200 kg jumps on something banging it same time with fists, it´s quite a hit. Reply

[BorneanTiger]

(09-30-2019, 11:06 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(09-30-2019, 10:58 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:

(09-30-2019, 10:07 PM)Shadow Wrote: It has been nice to see, that this topic is interesting. Still a reminder, this thread is created for postings about strength of a gorilla and for information concerning it. Not for information concerning behavior or predation situations unless some incident includes information about actions in which gorilla has showed how strong it is. That would be lifting, throwing or breaking something. For instance aggressive behavior alone isn´t proving anything. Many animals act aggressively in certain situations, but that alone tells nothing about it, that how strong they are. 

This thread is about it, that some people have in past made claims, like that gorilla would be even up to 20 times stronger than humans, some say 3 times, some 6 times.... but no-one has been really able to prove anything. Just hypothesis after hypothesis without real proof. Like myth, which even zookeepers or was it director said in sad case concerning Harambe, that gorilla could break a coconut crushing it in hand. Still in different clips gorillas use rocks to break coconuts. 

One hypothesis is something like that, that gorilla could lift even 2000 kg, first it seems to have been, that from ground and in time some people seemed to change it, that gorilla could lift such weight overhead. Same time there seems to be no proof to show, that gorilla would have lifted even a few hundred kg. Guinness Book of Records had at least one time hypothesis, that gorilla could lift over 800 kg, but also that is only hypothesis as far as I know. 

So depending about sources, hypotheses are variating quite a lot. Looks like, that reason is more or less it, that there simply isn´t information. So it´s very interesting to try to find out if there is anything, which would undeniable show something. I haven´t found so far practically anything proving, that gorilla would be stronger than other strong animals. Still even some articles give statements, that gorilla is in top 10 pound for pound, what comes to strong animals. But those articles give no good reasoning, nothing concrete (imo at least, I´m not convinced at all). It has to be remembered, that headlines sell and not all reporters are too eager to find real information, when good headline is all what is needed with some vague content.

So far, the only case where the gorilla has outclassed other animals in strength that I know of is in breaking glass with its own strength:

There are cases of a brown bear and polar bear breaking glass at zoos, but they used rocks to do so:

It jumped on that glass and those glasses can be worn out in time or have manufacturing defects. Zoo personnel have told, that those glasses have to be changed time to time. If gorillas could break those glasses by their strength, I think that we would have a lot of broken glasses. Not just one case. When only one case, impossible to know what was reason. Of course when 150-200 kg jumps on something banging it same time with fists, it´s quite a hit.

There is another case. Kumbuka, an aggressive male at London Zoo, is mentioned to have broken windows twice, though it wasn't always clear if he used an object or his own strength to do it, though it appears from a footprint on the window pane that it was the latter case: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/o...ore-escape Reply

[Shadow]

(09-30-2019, 11:11 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:

(09-30-2019, 11:06 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(09-30-2019, 10:58 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:

(09-30-2019, 10:07 PM)Shadow Wrote: It has been nice to see, that this topic is interesting. Still a reminder, this thread is created for postings about strength of a gorilla and for information concerning it. Not for information concerning behavior or predation situations unless some incident includes information about actions in which gorilla has showed how strong it is. That would be lifting, throwing or breaking something. For instance aggressive behavior alone isn´t proving anything. Many animals act aggressively in certain situations, but that alone tells nothing about it, that how strong they are. 

This thread is about it, that some people have in past made claims, like that gorilla would be even up to 20 times stronger than humans, some say 3 times, some 6 times.... but no-one has been really able to prove anything. Just hypothesis after hypothesis without real proof. Like myth, which even zookeepers or was it director said in sad case concerning Harambe, that gorilla could break a coconut crushing it in hand. Still in different clips gorillas use rocks to break coconuts. 

One hypothesis is something like that, that gorilla could lift even 2000 kg, first it seems to have been, that from ground and in time some people seemed to change it, that gorilla could lift such weight overhead. Same time there seems to be no proof to show, that gorilla would have lifted even a few hundred kg. Guinness Book of Records had at least one time hypothesis, that gorilla could lift over 800 kg, but also that is only hypothesis as far as I know. 

So depending about sources, hypotheses are variating quite a lot. Looks like, that reason is more or less it, that there simply isn´t information. So it´s very interesting to try to find out if there is anything, which would undeniable show something. I haven´t found so far practically anything proving, that gorilla would be stronger than other strong animals. Still even some articles give statements, that gorilla is in top 10 pound for pound, what comes to strong animals. But those articles give no good reasoning, nothing concrete (imo at least, I´m not convinced at all). It has to be remembered, that headlines sell and not all reporters are too eager to find real information, when good headline is all what is needed with some vague content.

So far, the only case where the gorilla has outclassed other animals in strength that I know of is in breaking glass with its own strength:

There are cases of a brown bear and polar bear breaking glass at zoos, but they used rocks to do so:

It jumped on that glass and those glasses can be worn out in time or have manufacturing defects. Zoo personnel have told, that those glasses have to be changed time to time. If gorillas could break those glasses by their strength, I think that we would have a lot of broken glasses. Not just one case. When only one case, impossible to know what was reason. Of course when 150-200 kg jumps on something banging it same time with fists, it´s quite a hit.

There is another case. Kumbuka, an aggressive male at London Zoo, is mentioned to have broken windows twice, though it wasn't always clear if he used an object or his own strength to do it, though it appears from a footprint on the window pane that it was the latter case: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/o...ore-escape

Interesting case. Maybe Kumbuka has learned, that jumping against glass and banging it with fists or objects makes it possible to shatter it. If bears would learn the same, we can only imagine how many glasses would be needed to change in different zoos :) These two species after all are known to lift objects and throwing those. Nice find. Reply

[Shadow]

One zoo safety glass broken either by itself or might have been a chimpanzee throwing something....

One glass broken by a small monkey using a stone to hit glass until broken.

Even though impressive, those glasses seem to be broken time to time and there can be different reasons. Reply