Ape Strength: Myth vs Reality

[johnny rex]

http://www.monkeyday.org/2005/07/gorilla...ville.html

"A gorilla and a chimpanzee are both recovering after a fight at the Jacksonville Zoo. 

The gorillas are fascinating creatures and so are the chimps. They live just across the moat from each other, which is usually a good barrier, since both fear the water and neither knows how to swim. 

One of the largest gorillas at the zoo, a 24-year-old male named Quito, either fell into the moat or tried to cross it, and ended up on the chimps side. 

Dr. Nick Kapustin is the Zoo's Veterinarian. He says, "There was an altercation and we have a chimp with Quito going into his territory and the two got aggressive with each other."

Chimps are more aggressive, but much smaller. A 150-pound chimp named Jackson went up against a more than 500-pound gorilla, named Quito, and the chimp lost. 

Kapustin says, "Jackson the chimp sustained some bite wounds and lacerations and he was treated immediately."

Quito didn't have any physical wounds but apparently went underwater when he was in the mote, which left him very sick. 

Kapustin says, "He likely inhaled water into his lungs. That can create some respiratory problems and that's what we're dealing with now."

Both Quiot and Jackson are recovering in their indoor habitats and both are expected to be okay." Reply

[johnny rex]

"But the “five times” figure was refuted 20 years after Bauman’s experiments. In 1943, Glen Finch of the Yale primate laboratory rigged an apparatus to test the arm strength of eight captive chimpanzees. An adult male chimp, he found, pulled about the same weight as an adult man. Once he’d corrected the measurement for their smaller body sizes, chimpanzees did turn out to be stronger than humans—but not by a factor of five or anything close to it."

https://slate.com/technology/2009/02/how...eally.html
Reply

[brotherbear]

johnny rex , I was living near Jacksonville, FL at that time and visited the Jax Zoo frequently. I was very familiar with both Quito and Jackson.  Reply

[johnny rex]

(01-19-2019, 04:29 PM)brotherbear Wrote: johnny rex , I was living near Jacksonville, FL at that time and visited the Jax Zoo frequently. I was very familiar with both Quito and Jackson. 

I heard Quito is no longer alive, is it true? 

Are you there when the confrontation occurred? Reply

[Shadow]

(01-19-2019, 04:01 PM)johnny rex Wrote: According to https://physicalculturestudy.com/2017/07...a-gorilla/ and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1635523/, a 135 lbs female chimp named Suzette, a former circus performer, "From a relaxed state, Suzette was credited with pulling 905 pounds and over 1260 pounds once agitated" by ‘sprang to the rope and, bracing both feet against the bars, pulled back with both hands upon the rope, making a pull on the latter that recorded 1260 lb upon the dial of the recording device’. A male chimp named Boma "Suzette’s father Boma registered one-hand pulls of 847 pounds with his right hand and 640 pounds with his left." Even football players can't do the exact feats that were done by chimps.

Interesting to read, still reading it. Here is one interesting video, which I remembered. Look from 4:27 about a minute if not willing to look whole video. There is quite similar kind of jump and there is easy to see the difference between untrained relatively fit man and then one, who can jump. That jumper is impressive and as everyone can see, very similar kind of jump as on this study when looking at chimp.

Reply

[johnny rex]

(01-19-2019, 05:11 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(01-19-2019, 04:01 PM)johnny rex Wrote: According to https://physicalculturestudy.com/2017/07...a-gorilla/ and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1635523/, a 135 lbs female chimp named Suzette, a former circus performer, "From a relaxed state, Suzette was credited with pulling 905 pounds and over 1260 pounds once agitated" by ‘sprang to the rope and, bracing both feet against the bars, pulled back with both hands upon the rope, making a pull on the latter that recorded 1260 lb upon the dial of the recording device’. A male chimp named Boma "Suzette’s father Boma registered one-hand pulls of 847 pounds with his right hand and 640 pounds with his left." Even football players can't do the exact feats that were done by chimps.

Interesting to read, still reading it. Here is one interesting video, which I remembered. Look from 4:27 about a minute if not willing to look whole video. There is quite similar kind of jump and there is easy to see the difference between untrained relatively fit man and then one, who can jump. That jumper is impressive and as everyone can see, very similar kind of jump as on this study when looking at chimp.

Anyway, I forget to tell you that Bauman's study which is involving a 135 lbs female chimp named Suzette, a former circus performer, pulling 1260 lb upon the dial of the recording device which is a dynamometer along with a male chimp named Boma "Suzette’s father Boma registered one-hand pulls of 847 pounds with his right hand and 640 pounds with his left" is already contradicted by later studies such as "In 1943, Glen Finch of the Yale primate laboratory rigged an apparatus to test the arm strength of eight captive chimpanzees. An adult male chimp, he found, pulled about the same weight as an adult man. Once he’d corrected the measurement for their smaller body sizes, chimpanzees did turn out to be stronger than humans—but not by a factor of five or anything close to it." Reply

[johnny rex]

(01-19-2019, 05:11 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(01-19-2019, 04:01 PM)johnny rex Wrote: According to https://physicalculturestudy.com/2017/07...a-gorilla/ and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1635523/, a 135 lbs female chimp named Suzette, a former circus performer, "From a relaxed state, Suzette was credited with pulling 905 pounds and over 1260 pounds once agitated" by ‘sprang to the rope and, bracing both feet against the bars, pulled back with both hands upon the rope, making a pull on the latter that recorded 1260 lb upon the dial of the recording device’. A male chimp named Boma "Suzette’s father Boma registered one-hand pulls of 847 pounds with his right hand and 640 pounds with his left." Even football players can't do the exact feats that were done by chimps.

Interesting to read, still reading it. Here is one interesting video, which I remembered. Look from 4:27 about a minute if not willing to look whole video. There is quite similar kind of jump and there is easy to see the difference between untrained relatively fit man and then one, who can jump. That jumper is impressive and as everyone can see, very similar kind of jump as on this study when looking at chimp.

Despite having shorter legs than humans, the legs of a bonobo and maybe other apes are strong compared to humans. But some people such as those in the video who are fit can indeed jump higher. Reply

[Shadow]

(01-19-2019, 05:43 PM)johnny rex Wrote:

(01-19-2019, 05:11 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(01-19-2019, 04:01 PM)johnny rex Wrote: According to https://physicalculturestudy.com/2017/07...a-gorilla/ and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1635523/, a 135 lbs female chimp named Suzette, a former circus performer, "From a relaxed state, Suzette was credited with pulling 905 pounds and over 1260 pounds once agitated" by ‘sprang to the rope and, bracing both feet against the bars, pulled back with both hands upon the rope, making a pull on the latter that recorded 1260 lb upon the dial of the recording device’. A male chimp named Boma "Suzette’s father Boma registered one-hand pulls of 847 pounds with his right hand and 640 pounds with his left." Even football players can't do the exact feats that were done by chimps.

Interesting to read, still reading it. Here is one interesting video, which I remembered. Look from 4:27 about a minute if not willing to look whole video. There is quite similar kind of jump and there is easy to see the difference between untrained relatively fit man and then one, who can jump. That jumper is impressive and as everyone can see, very similar kind of jump as on this study when looking at chimp.

Despite having shorter legs than humans, the legs of a bonobo and maybe other apes are strong compared to humans. But some people such as those in the video who are fit can indeed jump higher.

Well, that guy jumping really high has of course trained specifically it to be as good as he can. Those chimps are "average chimps". So it demands a trained jumper to get same kind of results as chimp does there. So there is no doubt, that chimps are very good jumpers. It would be more surprising if otherwise. There is footage about gorillas too making quite nice jumps considering, that their weight can be anywhere between 150-220 kg. Reply

[brotherbear]

(01-19-2019, 04:34 PM)johnny rex Wrote:

(01-19-2019, 04:29 PM)brotherbear Wrote: johnny rex , I was living near Jacksonville, FL at that time and visited the Jax Zoo frequently. I was very familiar with both Quito and Jackson. 

I heard Quito is no longer alive, is it true? 

Are you there when the confrontation occurred?

I have no idea of Quito or Jackson now. I was living in Fernandina Beach and was not at the zoo during the trouble. I have not been back to that area since 2012, but may be going back soon. Reply

[Pckts]

(01-19-2019, 05:11 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(01-19-2019, 04:01 PM)johnny rex Wrote: According to https://physicalculturestudy.com/2017/07...a-gorilla/ and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1635523/, a 135 lbs female chimp named Suzette, a former circus performer, "From a relaxed state, Suzette was credited with pulling 905 pounds and over 1260 pounds once agitated" by ‘sprang to the rope and, bracing both feet against the bars, pulled back with both hands upon the rope, making a pull on the latter that recorded 1260 lb upon the dial of the recording device’. A male chimp named Boma "Suzette’s father Boma registered one-hand pulls of 847 pounds with his right hand and 640 pounds with his left." Even football players can't do the exact feats that were done by chimps.

Interesting to read, still reading it. Here is one interesting video, which I remembered. Look from 4:27 about a minute if not willing to look whole video. There is quite similar kind of jump and there is easy to see the difference between untrained relatively fit man and then one, who can jump. That jumper is impressive and as everyone can see, very similar kind of jump as on this study when looking at chimp.

Jumping is very genetic, box jumps can be a learned skill though. If you have good hip mobility and a powerful arm swing/explosion off the ground, you can see a lot of growth relative to where you started but if you're talking about the Vertical Jump which is a true test of leaping, no matter how much you train, it's very hard to add significant height to your jump. Sure you can improve but no matter how hard you work, you're never going to have a 40'' vertical leap without a lot of help from the genetic lottery.


"Vertical jumping was used to assess muscle mechanical output in bonobos and comparisons were drawn to human jumping. Jump height, defined as the vertical displacement of the body centre of mass during the airborne phase, was determined for three bonobos of varying age and sex. All bonobos reached jump heights above 0.7 m, which greatly exceeds typical human maximal performance (0.3–0.4 m). Jumps by one male bonobo (34 kg) and one human male (61.5 kg) were analysed using an inverse dynamics approach. Despite the difference in size, the mechanical output delivered by the bonobo and the human jumper during the push-off was similar: about 450 J, with a peak power output close to 3000 W. In the bonobo, most of the mechanical output was generated at the hips. To account for the mechanical output, the muscles actuating the bonobo's hips (directly and indirectly) must deliver muscle-mass-specific power and work output of 615 W kg−1 and 92 J kg−1, respectively. This was twice the output expected on the basis of muscle mass specific work and power in other jumping animals but seems physiologically possible. We suggest that the difference is due to a higher specific force (force per unit of cross-sectional area) in the bonobo."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1635523/ Reply

[Shadow]

(01-20-2019, 12:23 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(01-19-2019, 05:11 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(01-19-2019, 04:01 PM)johnny rex Wrote: According to https://physicalculturestudy.com/2017/07...a-gorilla/ and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1635523/, a 135 lbs female chimp named Suzette, a former circus performer, "From a relaxed state, Suzette was credited with pulling 905 pounds and over 1260 pounds once agitated" by ‘sprang to the rope and, bracing both feet against the bars, pulled back with both hands upon the rope, making a pull on the latter that recorded 1260 lb upon the dial of the recording device’. A male chimp named Boma "Suzette’s father Boma registered one-hand pulls of 847 pounds with his right hand and 640 pounds with his left." Even football players can't do the exact feats that were done by chimps.

Interesting to read, still reading it. Here is one interesting video, which I remembered. Look from 4:27 about a minute if not willing to look whole video. There is quite similar kind of jump and there is easy to see the difference between untrained relatively fit man and then one, who can jump. That jumper is impressive and as everyone can see, very similar kind of jump as on this study when looking at chimp.

Jumping is very genetic, box jumps can be a learned skill though. If you have good hip mobility and a powerful arm swing/explosion off the ground, you can see a lot of growth relative to where you started but if you're talking about the Vertical Jump which is a true test of leaping, no matter how much you train, it's very hard to add significant height to your jump. Sure you can improve but no matter how hard you work, you're never going to have a 40'' vertical leap without a lot of help from the genetic lottery.


"Vertical jumping was used to assess muscle mechanical output in bonobos and comparisons were drawn to human jumping. Jump height, defined as the vertical displacement of the body centre of mass during the airborne phase, was determined for three bonobos of varying age and sex. All bonobos reached jump heights above 0.7 m, which greatly exceeds typical human maximal performance (0.3–0.4 m). Jumps by one male bonobo (34 kg) and one human male (61.5 kg) were analysed using an inverse dynamics approach. Despite the difference in size, the mechanical output delivered by the bonobo and the human jumper during the push-off was similar: about 450 J, with a peak power output close to 3000 W. In the bonobo, most of the mechanical output was generated at the hips. To account for the mechanical output, the muscles actuating the bonobo's hips (directly and indirectly) must deliver muscle-mass-specific power and work output of 615 W kg−1 and 92 J kg−1, respectively. This was twice the output expected on the basis of muscle mass specific work and power in other jumping animals but seems physiologically possible. We suggest that the difference is due to a higher specific force (force per unit of cross-sectional area) in the bonobo."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1635523/

I think, that it is self-evident, that some people are talented to different sports, same people can´t win world championships in marathon and 100 meters :) Still everyone not experienced can make better results naturally with some training. Still no matter what, those chimps did very good results. Reply

[Pckts]

Watch the very beginning, there's no way to know the weight of the log but it's not light, the Gorilla moves it like nothing.

Reply

[Shadow]

(01-21-2019, 09:32 PM)Pckts Wrote: Watch the very beginning, there's no way to know the weight of the log but it's not light, the Gorilla moves it like nothing.

When gorilla is standing and keeping that log straight on the ground there is a way to calculate approximate weight. Gorillas are usually about 170 cm when standing, if big one 180 cm. So that log is most probably about 2 meters and then diameter about 30 cm. So volume of that log is approximately 0,14 cubic meter but let´s say 0,15.

That is also obviously quite dry wood when looking at it. When we know now approximate volume it is quite easy to look at possible weight. Spruce 65,5-68,5 kg. Birch would be 91-95 kg. Pine 73-76 kg.

If someone can give estimation about wood, then it is possible to give approximate weight for any log if there is some way to get approximate measurements :)

Same thing with rocks/stones, some estimations which will be quite close can be calculated. Reply

[Pckts]

(01-22-2019, 01:26 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(01-21-2019, 09:32 PM)Pckts Wrote: Watch the very beginning, there's no way to know the weight of the log but it's not light, the Gorilla moves it like nothing.

When gorilla is standing and keeping that log straight on the ground there is a way to calculate approximate weight. Gorillas are usually about 170 cm when standing, if big one 180 cm. So that log is most probably about 2 meters and then diameter about 30 cm. So volume of that log is approximately 0,14 cubic meter but let´s say 0,15.

That is also obviously quite dry wood when looking at it. When we know now approximate volume it is quite easy to look at possible weight. Spruce 65,5-68,5 kg. Birch would be 91-95 kg. Pine 73-76 kg.

If someone can give estimation about wood, then it is possible to give approximate weight for any log if there is some way to get approximate measurements :)

Same thing with rocks/stones, some estimations which will be quite close can be calculated.

Log Weight Calculator below
http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/calculato...log_weight

You still need to know the diameter of the log on both ends and an actual length.
Type of wood would also need to be known, all of those factors would make it impossible to know for sure.


Log Types and how to measure them below:

https://extension.tennessee.edu/publicat.../sp748.pdf

I'd guess it's in the 200lb range Reply

[Shadow]

(01-22-2019, 01:32 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(01-22-2019, 01:26 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(01-21-2019, 09:32 PM)Pckts Wrote: Watch the very beginning, there's no way to know the weight of the log but it's not light, the Gorilla moves it like nothing.

When gorilla is standing and keeping that log straight on the ground there is a way to calculate approximate weight. Gorillas are usually about 170 cm when standing, if big one 180 cm. So that log is most probably about 2 meters and then diameter about 30 cm. So volume of that log is approximately 0,14 cubic meter but let´s say 0,15.

That is also obviously quite dry wood when looking at it. When we know now approximate volume it is quite easy to look at possible weight. Spruce 65,5-68,5 kg. Birch would be 91-95 kg. Pine 73-76 kg.

If someone can give estimation about wood, then it is possible to give approximate weight for any log if there is some way to get approximate measurements :)

Same thing with rocks/stones, some estimations which will be quite close can be calculated.

Log Weight Calculator below
http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/calculato...log_weight

You still need to know the diameter of the log on both ends and an actual length.
Type of wood would also need to be known, all of those factors would make it impossible to know for sure.


Log Types and how to measure them below:

https://extension.tennessee.edu/publicat.../sp748.pdf

I'd guess it's in the 200lb range

I already calculated and gave my estimated measurements. Reply