Ape Strength: Myth vs Reality

[Spalea]

Gorillas, compared with bears, are not very demonstrativ animals...

... Excepted when they are breaking the glass !

Nevertheless we are able to see they are very very very impressive ! In the french language we often qualify a bodyguard as being "un gorille" ! No one man is a gorilla... Anatomically speaking the gorillas are on an "other league". Just look at their arms ! Reply

[Shadow]

(12-12-2018, 12:29 PM)Spalea Wrote: Gorillas, compared with bears, are not very demonstrativ animals...

... Excepted when they are breaking the glass !

Nevertheless we are able to see they are very very very impressive ! In the french language we often qualify a bodyguard as being "un gorille" ! No one man is a gorilla... Anatomically speaking the gorillas are on an "other league". Just look at their arms !

Yes I have seen these and I don´t find here anything particularly special. One stone which any strong man could move in pretty much same way. Of course that is with ease, but then again bears do just the same and effortlessly.

That breaking a glass could have been old glass with manufacturing defect or just "worn out" and lucky gorilla. Then again bears have broken some glasses by throwing stones in zoos. Anyway we have many gorillas in zoos for decades and there is no issue with these glasses like gorillas would be able to break through. If that would happen all the time it would be something for what I would be giving more credit, but this looks to be a combination of good luck and possible bad quality of glass. I edited this part of my answer, because I replied firstly a little bit sloppy.

I think, that these two videos are very familiar to all, who are interested about gorillas. Also that banana tree video is very familiar and probably most people here have seen it. I can understand why these videos can be seen showing, that gorillas are strong, but I personally am not so impressed because of reasons I said. I mean I don´t see here anything extraordinary compared to other animals what comes to strength yet. For instance a horse same weight giving a kick with hind legs would most probably also been breaking that glass.

But of course it is nice to hear if different kind of thoughts about what can be seen in those videos and reasoning. Reply

[Shadow]

These two photos just to give comparison if we look at arms of animals. Of course these specific bears are unfair in that way, that these kind of overkill gorillas in comparison. But of course smaller bears have quite same measurements relatively. So gorilla isn´t only impressive animal what comes to robust body, bears are too very very robust and muscular animals. There are others, but bear just seems to be most suitable to use in this comparison and helping me in trying to explain my point of view in this matter and why I am interested to find more and hopefully new information. Reply

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[brotherbear]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbo3jjs4AW0 Reply

[brotherbear]

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[brotherbear]

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[brotherbear]

https://rense.com/general59/dder.htm 
 
From the May 28, 1902 edition of the Fort Wayne News: "In the Marseilles zoo there recently took place a duel to the death between a man and an adult gorilla, the only one in Europe. The gorilla was killed after a fight lasting twenty minutes, in which the keeper was so terribly mangled that he died five hours later. "The famous gorilla was named Francois. He was one of the largest species and always had been perfectly tractable, showing especial affection for his keeper, a man named Journoux, until the latter married a few weeks ago. "The bride visited the zoo often, and the gorilla was very sensitive about the attentions she showed her husband. When the gorilla perceived that she undoubtedly preferred his keeper, Francois became more and more jealous, and finally Jouroux found it impossible to approach the gorilla, especially if Mme. Journoux was in sight. "Francois became so surly and quiet that the keeper thought he was sick and entered the cage to comfort him. The gorilla immediately sprang upon his keeper. Journoux held a short tamer's fork, which alone accounts for the fight lasting so long.... "By the time help arrived the gorilla had been killed. The keeper was found with one eye torn out and rapidly losing blood from many other wounds. One hand had been completely chewed off, and the lower lip and part of the chin had also been bitten off."
 
It is worth noting that in the homophobic era of the early 20th century, this journalist did not feel free to speculate that the real object of the gorilla's affection was not the handler's wife, but the handler himself. Of course, the reporter may have been misguided in concluding that "jealousy" was the motive behind the gorilla's rampage, but remember that gorillas share about 98 percent of the genetic material of humans. And to quote Dr. Zaius, the eminent simian scholar in Planet of the Apes, "I have always known about man. From the evidence, I believe his wisdom must walk hand and hand with his idiocy. His emotions must rule his brain. He must be a warlike creature who gives battle to everything around him, even himself." Reply

[Shadow]

(12-12-2018, 03:13 PM)brotherbear Wrote: https://rense.com/general59/dder.htm 
 
From the May 28, 1902 edition of the Fort Wayne News: "In the Marseilles zoo there recently took place a duel to the death between a man and an adult gorilla, the only one in Europe. The gorilla was killed after a fight lasting twenty minutes, in which the keeper was so terribly mangled that he died five hours later. "The famous gorilla was named Francois. He was one of the largest species and always had been perfectly tractable, showing especial affection for his keeper, a man named Journoux, until the latter married a few weeks ago. "The bride visited the zoo often, and the gorilla was very sensitive about the attentions she showed her husband. When the gorilla perceived that she undoubtedly preferred his keeper, Francois became more and more jealous, and finally Jouroux found it impossible to approach the gorilla, especially if Mme. Journoux was in sight. "Francois became so surly and quiet that the keeper thought he was sick and entered the cage to comfort him. The gorilla immediately sprang upon his keeper. Journoux held a short tamer's fork, which alone accounts for the fight lasting so long.... "By the time help arrived the gorilla had been killed. The keeper was found with one eye torn out and rapidly losing blood from many other wounds. One hand had been completely chewed off, and the lower lip and part of the chin had also been bitten off."
 
It is worth noting that in the homophobic era of the early 20th century, this journalist did not feel free to speculate that the real object of the gorilla's affection was not the handler's wife, but the handler himself. Of course, the reporter may have been misguided in concluding that "jealousy" was the motive behind the gorilla's rampage, but remember that gorillas share about 98 percent of the genetic material of humans. And to quote Dr. Zaius, the eminent simian scholar in Planet of the Apes, "I have always known about man. From the evidence, I believe his wisdom must walk hand and hand with his idiocy. His emotions must rule his brain. He must be a warlike creature who gives battle to everything around him, even himself."

Some lessons are learnt with heavy price. Sad when people with good intentions pay those prices. Like that one woman working in zoo in Sweden with wolves and got killed by those then one day when entering to enclosure. I don´t remember now was there some known reason or not.

I think, that it is quite clear, that gorilla overpowers humans easily and questionable part is, that where it stand among other strong animals. How big and heavy objects it can lift or move when it wants to do so. Or break truly with pure strength. Bamboo is often mentioned, but then again it is mentioned that gorillas bite that bamboo first to weaken it and then easier to break it by hands. In some videos gorillas can be seen to break bamboo, but in all what I have seen using body weight to make it happen. Not something a weakling could do, but then again not proving something unique strength among animals. There are claims, that gorilla could crash a coconut, but videos which I have found have showed, that gorillas are hitting coconut against rock until it finally breaks. So not just crushing it just like that like some claims suggest.

I think, that from youtube it is difficult to find something new especially if that video is popular and can be found with keywords "gorilla" "strong" "strength" "lifting" "break" etc. But is there something in some other site maybe or some document? Or anything? :) Reply

[johnny rex]

(12-12-2018, 12:29 PM)Spalea Wrote: Gorillas, compared with bears, are not very demonstrativ animals...

... Excepted when they are breaking the glass !

Nevertheless we are able to see they are very very very impressive ! In the french language we often qualify a bodyguard as being "un gorille" ! No one man is a gorilla... Anatomically speaking the gorillas are on an "other league". Just look at their arms !

I've seen these videos. Gorillas moving objects are common sight though. Most glasses in zoos are made of three layers, it's the first layer of glass that was broken when the gorilla crashed into it. Also, the glass like Shadow said could have been old glass with manufacturing defect or just "worn out" and lucky gorilla. Another example would be chimps. Chimpanzees are strong too but I doubt even a dominant male chimp can protect itself from a average sized leopard or cougar. Reply

[Shadow]

(12-12-2018, 07:05 PM)johnny rex Wrote:

(12-12-2018, 12:29 PM)Spalea Wrote: Gorillas, compared with bears, are not very demonstrativ animals...

... Excepted when they are breaking the glass !

Nevertheless we are able to see they are very very very impressive ! In the french language we often qualify a bodyguard as being "un gorille" ! No one man is a gorilla... Anatomically speaking the gorillas are on an "other league". Just look at their arms !

I've seen these videos. Gorillas moving objects are common sight though. Most glasses in zoos are made of three layers, it's the first layer of glass that was broken when the gorilla crashed into it. Also, the glass like Shadow said could have been old glass with manufacturing defect or just "worn out" and lucky gorilla. Another example would be chimps. Chimpanzees are strong too but I doubt even a dominant male chimp can protect itself from a average sized leopard or cougar.

I would say that much, that what animals can kill each others is another issue and not any indicator what comes to strength I think. I mean, leopards have killed also silverback gorillas in some occasions, but I don´t still think a second, that a 50-90 kg leopard would be stronger than a gorilla. At least unless someone is able to prove it in some way. Even though leopards do impressive job when climbing to a tree with carcass. Who knows what would a comparison pound to pound say, but still I believe, that what comes to absolute brute strength, gorilla is stronger. But still leopard can kill it as usually seem to happen when they fight. Same thing when a lion kills a buffalo up to 4-5 times it´s own weight (in "best" case) or a hippo even 10 times it´s own weight, for sure buffalo and hippo are stronger animals, but still not safe from attacks and to be eaten.

So I would hope, that in this thread focus would be in that, that what kind of actions showing remarkable strength gorillas have done and where can be found information about those occasions? Or is situation, that nobody really knows something really concrete? And if there is something, in what bases that should be considered as extraordinary or should it?

Gorilla is strong, question here from me is, that how strong really? :) Reply

[johnny rex]

(12-12-2018, 07:40 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(12-12-2018, 07:05 PM)johnny rex Wrote:

(12-12-2018, 12:29 PM)Spalea Wrote: Gorillas, compared with bears, are not very demonstrativ animals...

... Excepted when they are breaking the glass !

Nevertheless we are able to see they are very very very impressive ! In the french language we often qualify a bodyguard as being "un gorille" ! No one man is a gorilla... Anatomically speaking the gorillas are on an "other league". Just look at their arms !

I've seen these videos. Gorillas moving objects are common sight though. Most glasses in zoos are made of three layers, it's the first layer of glass that was broken when the gorilla crashed into it. Also, the glass like Shadow said could have been old glass with manufacturing defect or just "worn out" and lucky gorilla. Another example would be chimps. Chimpanzees are strong too but I doubt even a dominant male chimp can protect itself from a average sized leopard or cougar.

I would say that much, that what animals can kill each others is another issue and not any indicator what comes to strength I think. I mean, leopards have killed also silverback gorillas in some occasions, but I don´t still think a second, that a 50-90 kg leopard would be stronger than a gorilla. At least unless someone is able to prove it in some way. Even though leopards do impressive job when climbing to a tree with carcass. Who knows what would a comparison pound to pound say, but still I believe, that what comes to absolute brute strength, gorilla is stronger. But still leopard can kill it as usually seem to happen when they fight. Same thing when a lion kills a buffalo up to 4-5 times it´s own weight (in "best" case) or a hippo even 10 times it´s own weight, for sure buffalo and hippo are stronger animals, but still not safe from attacks and to be eaten.

So I would hope, that in this thread focus would be in that, that what kind of actions showing remarkable strength gorillas have done and where can be found information about those occasions? Or is situation, that nobody really knows something really concrete? And if there is something, in what bases that should be considered as extraordinary or should it?

Gorilla is strong, question here from me is, that how strong really? :)

Gorillas are strong, there's no denying that. But saying gorillas are 10 times stronger than humans need lots of demonstrations. Reply

[Shadow]

(12-12-2018, 09:23 PM)johnny rex Wrote:

(12-12-2018, 07:40 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(12-12-2018, 07:05 PM)johnny rex Wrote:

(12-12-2018, 12:29 PM)Spalea Wrote: Gorillas, compared with bears, are not very demonstrativ animals...

... Excepted when they are breaking the glass !

Nevertheless we are able to see they are very very very impressive ! In the french language we often qualify a bodyguard as being "un gorille" ! No one man is a gorilla... Anatomically speaking the gorillas are on an "other league". Just look at their arms !

I've seen these videos. Gorillas moving objects are common sight though. Most glasses in zoos are made of three layers, it's the first layer of glass that was broken when the gorilla crashed into it. Also, the glass like Shadow said could have been old glass with manufacturing defect or just "worn out" and lucky gorilla. Another example would be chimps. Chimpanzees are strong too but I doubt even a dominant male chimp can protect itself from a average sized leopard or cougar.

I would say that much, that what animals can kill each others is another issue and not any indicator what comes to strength I think. I mean, leopards have killed also silverback gorillas in some occasions, but I don´t still think a second, that a 50-90 kg leopard would be stronger than a gorilla. At least unless someone is able to prove it in some way. Even though leopards do impressive job when climbing to a tree with carcass. Who knows what would a comparison pound to pound say, but still I believe, that what comes to absolute brute strength, gorilla is stronger. But still leopard can kill it as usually seem to happen when they fight. Same thing when a lion kills a buffalo up to 4-5 times it´s own weight (in "best" case) or a hippo even 10 times it´s own weight, for sure buffalo and hippo are stronger animals, but still not safe from attacks and to be eaten.

So I would hope, that in this thread focus would be in that, that what kind of actions showing remarkable strength gorillas have done and where can be found information about those occasions? Or is situation, that nobody really knows something really concrete? And if there is something, in what bases that should be considered as extraordinary or should it?

Gorilla is strong, question here from me is, that how strong really? :)

Gorillas are strong, there's no denying that. But saying gorillas are 10 times stronger than humans need lots of demonstrations.

 I agree. Gorilla for instance has impressive biting force, but it doesn´t prove too much. Usually it is told, that Jaguar has stronger biting force than a gorilla and still no-one is suggesting, that Jaguar would be stronger than gorilla overall. Overall strength is so different thing. Reply

[Spalea]

@Shadow:

About #7 and #8: I said that the gorilla is a very strong animal, but I didn't compare it with the bears ! No doubt, IMO, that a big bear are stronger than any gorillas, and even pound for pound a gorilla against an equal-weight bear, the bear would have the edge. Any bear know how to fight and kill efficiently, and, I can be wrong, not the gorillas.

Any silver back gorilla, muscularly speaking is much more stronger than a leopard. But the fact to know that , despite of this, a 60-kilo-leopard is able to kill a 180-kilo-silvar-back gorilla, makes me believe that a gorilla isn't at all a vicious animal when it comes to fight. Whereas the leopard, compared to it, is a "professionnal killer". Thus I'm agree too with @brotherbear when he told that the gorillas would have serious problem if they had to interact with tigers in the same biotop. Surely, they would react as orangutans in Sumatra by staying upto the trees all the time.

We have to discern the muscular strength and the ability to fight, to kill. A big plow horse is perhaps muscularly stronger than a lion or a tiger. But no doubt that a big cat would kill it and not the opposite.


Gorillas are very "gentle" animals... Reply

[Shadow]

(12-13-2018, 12:51 AM)Spalea Wrote: @Shadow:

About #7 and #8: I said that the gorilla is a very strong animal, but I didn't compare it with the bears ! No doubt, IMO, that a big bear are stronger than any gorillas, and even pound for pound a gorilla against an equal-weight bear, the bear would have the edge. Any bear know how to fight and kill efficiently, and, I can be wrong, not the gorillas.

Any silver back gorilla, muscularly speaking is much more stronger than a leopard. But the fact to know that , despite of this, a 60-kilo-leopard is able to kill a 180-kilo-silvar-back gorilla, makes me believe that a gorilla isn't at all a vicious animal when it comes to fight. Whereas the leopard, compared to it, is a "professionnal killer". Thus I'm agree too with @brotherbear when he told that the gorillas would have serious problem if they had to interact with tigers in the same biotop. Surely, they would react as orangutans in Sumatra by staying upto the trees all the time.

We have to discern the muscular strength and the ability to fight, to kill. A big plow horse is perhaps muscularly stronger than a lion or a tiger. But no doubt that a big cat would kill it and not the opposite.


Gorillas are very "gentle" animals...

Yes I noticed, that not comparing there so much. I still replied with some comparison mostly in hope to create discussion and maybe wake interest of someone who might have some new information or know someone who might know more. It is so damn difficult to find good information which would be unambiguous. 

Some videos, like those you shared show, that there is strength which has to be admitted, but then again there is room for speculation too. 

And what comes to separating fighting abilities and pure brute strength, that has been my point of view all the time, what I have tried to say. I am interested and curious about brute strength of a gorilla, not about it, that what it can or can´t kill and what then again kills a gorilla. Those issues have been here from others. I have used bear in comparison only to point out, that there are also other robust animals and also showing impressive strength by moving heavy objects etc. For instance digging out of ground a 300-350 kg rock (weight calculated from size of that rock, 40x50x60 cm) and practically throwing it away. Something, what no human could do and what, I think, would be quite a task also for a gorilla. Or would it....? :) 

It would be nice to find out if that kind of cases could be found about gorillas. Reply

[brotherbear]

Shadow says: I mean, leopards have killed also silverback gorillas in some occasions, but I don´t still think a second, that a 50-90 kg leopard would be stronger than a gorilla.  
 
Evidently, these incidents are rare. But why? Certainly a leopard has for greater experience and expertise in killing than a vegetarian gorilla. The answer is ( I believe ) the leopard knows that a gorilla is a big and very strong adversary.  Reply