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Amur Tigers
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@GreenGrolar
Quote:Some of the articles do talk about tigers killing large bears. However, there is no specific mention about the age, gender and condition of the animal. Bears of the Russian far east are far from small animals, their some of the largest species of bears on earth, that are similar in size and in some cases even bigger than a tiger. You've seen what big bears look like, their massively built, robust and powerful animals. So in spite of the fact that the gender, age or condition (Note, tigers primarily hunt bears in summer and autumn, when bears are in peak condition and weights) was not mentioned, it still proves that large bears, which are at least similar-size and weight to full-grown adult male tigers, are hunted and killed. Which is impressive to say the least. Tigers hunt large adult male black bears (the largest subspecies of Asiatic black bears on earth), which can weigh 190-200+kg in the summer and fall, and the largest and healthiest adult female brown bears. Which can weigh well over 200 kg. Baikov also stated that large tigers hunt and kill bears of the same weight. Now considering all these facts, you can gauge the size of the large bears hunted and killed by tigers. Quote:Regarding male brown bears killing male tigers, there is none mention in Siberian tiger project, however, they seem to be mention in this article below: Again, your posting very unreliable sources, that is reporting pure misinformation. Firstly, this is a book about North American predators and was not written by an expert on tiger and bear conflicts in Russia. Your source states: "Adult bears are generally immune to tiger attacks in summer". This is clearly wrong and easily debunked by modern scientific studies and research. The vast majority of adult bears (brown & black) are hunted and killed by tigers in SUMMER. So the reality is the exact opposite. There's not a single case in history, scientific literature or any article (from biologists etc) of a brown bear ever killing a full-grown adult male tiger. The oldest male tiger ever killed by a brown bear was a young male aged around 4 years old and the bear was 'very large' in size. So the author of this book is clearly stating nonsense and lies. This source also states: "Tiger attacks on bears tend to occur when ungulate populations decrease, and occur mostly in the late autumn and early spring." ... This statement is blatantly wrong, as proven by my previous posts, (and posts in the extinction thread). Tigers mainly attack and kill bears especially in summer and early-mid autumn (snow-free period), as modern scientific studies and research clearly shows.  *This image is copyright of its original author http://www.neaspec.org/sites/default/fil...%9D%B4.pdf From the Siberian Tiger Project; According to their studies in the Sikhote Alin Reserve, tigers hunted bears (bulked up bears) mostly in the fall. In the summer and fall, the percentage of bears in the tigers diet is significant:  *This image is copyright of its original author I know your not denying the fact that tigers mainly hunt bears in summer, I'm just posting these sources to show you that the author of this book is just blindly writing misinformation and old, outdated opinions from the last century which isn't backed up by any evidence or modern research, so this book source is very unreliable. His statement of full-grown adult male tigers being killed by brown bears is completely false. I advise you to post evidence and sources from actual experts and authorities. (biologists, researchers, zoologists etc) Quote:That is probably included in the 12 cases of the brown bears winning although the statistics favours the tiger. Yes, the author is most likely talking about the 12 cases of brown bears killing tigers in those statistics, in which he got his facts totally wrong because NO adult male tigers were killed by brown bears. Only young male tigers were killed. A 4 year old male tiger is still immature and lacks the size, strength, power and experience of a fully-grown 6+ years old adult male tiger. Note, the young 4 year old tiger was still able to put up a long and fierce struggle against a very large brown bear. Now imagine the bear fighting against a fully-grown adult male tiger? An adult male tiger is a whole different story and level. Quote: I agree with this source to some extent. When hunting brown bears, tigers will usually avoid hunting the large male brown bears. But notice, it doesn't say "always" or "never", it says "usually". There's a difference. David Prynn's statement suggests that large male brown bears are hunted by tigers in some cases, but not usually. The last part of the highlighted statement is wrong. When tigers hunt brown bears, male tigers more often prey on adult brown bears, not cubs. (Tkachenko, STP biologists). The tiger 'Dale' habitually hunted adult female brown bears, biologists found only one bear cub killed by him. The rest were adult bears killed. Tigers are 'energy maximizers' that prefer to hunt large animals equal to or exceeding their own size. Thats why tigers mostly hunt and kill adult bears, that will provide plenty of meat and maximize their energetic return. Hunting mostly juvenile bears and cubs is useless and will not provide the energetic return needed. Quote:Some tigers have learn to hunt bears yet they seem to be unable to prevent adult male brown bears from taking their food. These male brown bears are probably much heavier. There are adult male brown bears that have fled at the sight of tigers but again according to Grizzly Years, the grizzly bears have the personalities of the seven dwafts - some are more timid than others. It seems every animal has aggressive and timid specimens of their own. These tigers that are unable to prevent adult male brown bears from taking their food, are female tigers, not adult male tigers. Read the context from the chapter 19 study. And food relations studies from Seryodkin, Miquelle etc.... The word "Tigers" used is a general term. Also note, in vast majority of cases, large male brown bears actually wait for the tigress to finish eating and leave the kill before approaching and scavenging the left-overs. This is the most typical case, as reported by Seryodkin, Goodrich, Miquelle and others. FOOD RELATIONS OF THE AMUR TIGER WITH BEARS IN THE SIKHOTE-ALIN RESERVE "Regarding how the tiger's prey fell to the bear, the most typical situation was when bears took possession of the remains of the prey after the tiger left the prey. Such circumstances amounted to 44.4% for bears of both types and for brown bears, 55%. At least there were 4 cases when bears, finding tigers on their prey, chased them away. Four (11.1%). Cases when a tiger victim had traces of the simultaneous presence of a tiger and a bear was noted by us 4. In all cases, they were brown bears and female tigers." STP biologists and researchers, in 25 years of field research, never found a single case of any adult male brown bear ever directly usurping the kill of an adult male tiger, period. Biologists, zoologists and researchers (Alexander Batalov, Dunishenko, Tkachenko, Kolchin etc) who study tigers in the Khabarovsk region, have also never found a single case of a large male brown bear ever usurping the kill of an adult male tiger. So what does that show you? That statement from Miquelle also suggests (can easily be interpreted this way) that adult male brown bears are killed in clashes over food with tigers, and because of this, some tigers learnt to hunt brown bears. Adult male brown bears prefer to contest female tigers, "LEST IT BECOME AN ITEM OF TIGER DIET"... i.e. because contesting a male tigers kill would be suicide for the bear.  *This image is copyright of its original author Quote:I remember Linda Kerley saying that amur tigers can kill bears up to the largest female brown bear which does not contradict Bart Scheleyer, who said although the tiger generally kills brown bears, 100 times lighter, but not always. Here is the email: I already explained to you about Bart Schleyer. He's only ONE biologist who's research and observations were very limited compared to other biologists and researchers who have decades more experience in the field than he did. You can't base your conclusion solely off one single biologists account, because other accounts suggest otherwise. Also, you need to realize that Schleyer ESTIMATED the size of those bears killed by tigers, he never weighed them. So how on earth can he know for sure that the tigers had a 100 pound weight advantage in most cases?? Could have possibly been a 60-80 pound weight advantage, we'll never know. Anyways, Schleyers accounts happened in winter (snow-tracking tigers), not in the snow-free period i.e. summer and fall, when tigers primarily hunt adult brown bears. So Schleyers account doesn't tell us much. Quote:Tigers also prey on two or three bears of two species per year. From Siberian Tiger Project. Siberian Tiger Project biologists are merely referencing Kucherenko, this is NOT their statement or results. In fact, their very own research debunks Kucherenko's statement. Also, this is old outdated info from Kucherenko. Far more recent studies (2010-2017) show that tigers hunt and kill way more bears than Kucherenko suggested back in 1977. How can tigers only prey on three bears of two species per year, when numerous modern studies clearly show that tigers regularly prey on bears in the summer and autumn months?? With bears making up a large significant percentage of the tigers diet. There's also habitual bear-hunting tigers that prefer to hunt and eat bears instead of ungulate prey animals. Adding all these factors, its most likely that at least 100 bears are killed every year by tigers. Kucherenko also stated this in his book: "Brown and black bears are common victims of the tiger throughout its range, and he hunts them especially diligently, and eats the crushed ones with obvious pleasure and fuller than a wild boar or red deer." "The tiger also hunts very diligently for usually fat bears, and eats this prey most fully (it is appropriate to recall that all predators prefer fat to lean)." https://www.litmir.me/br/?b=559283&p=1 Quote:Hungry predators do attack anything in their path (especially when they have been starving for a while), however, it does not mean they always win. Regarding the tigress killing a male brown bear, I think that brown bear must have been 170 kg, Warsaw posted that account (probably). 170 kg is hardly a full grown male Ussuri brown bear but it is still impressive. The other is a very old account when an old male grizzly got severely injured by a train before a tigress killed it. I'm not talking about those cases. The account of the full-grown adult male grizzly bear killed by a tigress, was from a old newspaper article. Why are you bringing up this case? Its irrelevant. The 170 kg adult brown bear (unknown sex) that was killed by a tigress was reported by biologist, Bromlei. Here's the account:  *This image is copyright of its original author https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Q9wH...wQ6AEIODAC I'm talking about this account, mentioned by biologist Kucherenko, of a tigress that stalked and killed a big male brown bear much larger than herself. This incident was eye-witnessed by his colleague: "Of course, all my attention was riveted by the tiger. It was a female. Small, with salted nipples. I was surprised at her courage, and even self-confidence - the bear was much larger in size and had remarkable strength. It was later that I learned the reason for her courage and decisiveness: they were built on a strict calculation of their actions, surprise attack, agility and swiftness." "The tigress, of course, took care of her life for the children more than for herself, and if she decided to attack the bear, to know, there were good reasons for this and confidence in victory." "She sneaked up exactly like a domestic cat: slowly, with fading, silently moving her paws. The tigress did not take her yellow burning eyes off the victim and definitely calculated her every step towards the approach to the distance of the decisive jump." ... "There were only two tiger leaps left for the unsuspecting bear, but the striped one for some reason hesitated. And I realized that she built her calculations on a single jump. She either waited for the prey to inadvertently approach her, or was looking for a convenient moment in order to approach herself. A minute passed, another stretched. I forgot about the retreat because of the stress, although I kept my gun in constant readiness. And here it is, the right moment! When the bear buried its head in the dug hole, the tigress jumped onto another boulder some five meters away from the "beetle" who had lost all caution." "She jumped on him from that boulder. It jumped with such a deafening roar that I completely died out. However, I clearly saw her in a jump - with her mouth wide open, her front paws spread with her claws extended In that tiny fraction of a second, the bear could only turn around and rise, but he did not have time to scatter his paws in order to embrace the enemy, as it is customary in such circumstances in a bear race. I think that it was on all this that the tiger jump was built. The predator with a strong swing of its clawed paws slashed the victim from top to bottom along its open belly, immediately dived with its head between the enemy's hind legs to its very shoulders and with a sharp jerk threw the brown hulk through itself, by its tail ... that this beast is capable of throwing so much weight twice its own." ...  *This image is copyright of its original author "The bear roared and rolled, more and more entangling itself with blue guts. From horror and pain, at first he did not even think to find his enemy and take revenge, which is also inherent in the bear's nature from birth. But in his last breath, he found the tigress with his eyes and crawled towards her, but crawled already with dying fading. She was lying on a boulder, whipping herself with her tail, in full readiness for another jump, the final one. However, he was not needed." "The tigress approached her prey already at dusk. There was such silence that I could hardly breathe, heard the beat of my heart and caught every step of the amba on a dry leaf. And I couldn't decide what to do. I knew that she would spot me at the first movement, and that it would have to go around that place in a considerable circle. Moreover, the tigress was agitated and very dangerous." https://www.litmir.me/br/?b=170047&p=33 About this book: The author of the book is a well-known Far Eastern writer, scientist, hunting biologist, candidate of biological sciences. For many years he studied the ecology of the tiger. The stories about meetings with the lord of the Ussuri taiga, written on the basis of factual material, allow us to learn a lot about the habits and lifestyle of a rare Red Book predator. In short stories - and pride for the magnificent beast, and compassion for his misfortunes. The author urges readers, all residents of the Amur and Primorye Territories, to respect the rights of the animal to its tiger house, to be responsible for the survival of the Amur tiger on our planet. https://www.labirint.ru/books/475154/ https://www.ozon.ru/product/vstrechi-s-a...j7-xVb8LeQ Quote:Tiger's also become the usual winner because they can choose which bear they want to attack in the wild. Sometimes I do wish that they will be more good real life videos on this. Adult bears include any bear that has recently left its parent. For example, the three year old bear killed by Boris was classified as an adult but is not sexually mature yet. Tigers and brown bears sexually mature around the same time but the latter takes longer to reach full grown adult hood. Firstly, its rare for 3 year old bears to be called "adults" or bears that have just left their parents. Experts still call these bears either subadults or juveniles, but not adults. Also, the juvenile tiger 'Boris' killed TWO BROWN BEARS on record. One was a young brown bear, the other was an adult brown bear of unknown age and gender. But the bear was an adult bear killed. This was already discussed and established on Carnivora forum. When assessing this case, its important that we read first-hand reports from the Russian specialists who reported this account. Like this report ... Tiger Boris remained on the territory of the Amur Region. He repeatedly made forays into the Jewish Autonomous Region, but regularly returned to the place of release. Hoofed prey was not a problem for him. Once a case of hunting an adult brown bear was recorded. http://tiger.sevin-expedition.ru/news/news_144.html There's also this Russian news report: In the meantime, the authorities of the Oktyabrsky and Zavitinsky districts, knowing about Boris's movements, advise local residents not to take dogs with them into the forest, so as not to provoke the tiger. People are also forbidden to approach the remains of animals, as they can be Boris's prey. It is known for certain that he had a successful hunt for an adult brown bear. https://vladnews.ru/ev/vl/3749/104508/tigry_leopardy And why are you ignoring the fact that tigers also fight with adult brown bears over kill-disputes?? I've posted plenty of authentic information about this in the extinction thread and other forums. In these cases, the tiger is not "choosing" which bear to attack. It defends its kill against ANY bear, and this is when fights erupt, in which the tiger usually dominates and defeats the brown bear in these clashes. How can a tiger "choose" which bear contests its kill?? That makes no sense. When it comes to face-to-face fights between tigers and bears (not tigers choosing which bears to attack) over kills, the evidence, statistics, reports and accounts from biologists, naturalists, experienced hunters and locals etc ... all heavily favour the tiger, and prove that the tiger wins most head-on fights against brown bears. Again, I posted plenty of information on this. From renowned tiger biologist and ecologist - John Seidenstecker When a tiger returns to its kill and finds a wild boar or brown bear scavenging the kill, the tiger has a chance to kill another big meal:  *This image is copyright of its original author https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/C...frontcover This explains why many brown bears have been killed in fights by tigers over kill-disputes. Quote:Personally, there does not seem to be a specific account of a mature male brown bear between 9 years old and above being killed by a tiger. The most capable of doing so would be the 600 pound tiger (an exceptionally heavy one): Yes there is. Chlamid was a fully-mature and huge male brown bear that was killed and eaten by a tiger. I'm sure he was most likely well over 9 years old. This is my source (and screen-shot) you posted, and it favours the tiger. It states that tigers are immensely strong and are known for taking on (preying on) heavyweight adversaries, including Himalayan black bears and brown bears which can weigh as much as 605 pounds. My point exactly. Tigers hunt and kill big brown bears. (03-19-2022, 02:15 PM)GreenGrolar Wrote: OK, so Dale Miquelle doesn't personally know of a case of an adult male brown bear killed by a tiger, so? What does this prove overall?? He's only ONE biologist out of countless other biologists and tiger researchers. Miquelle has around 25 years of experience studying wild Amur tigers, and he studies tigers only in the Primorsky region, particularly in the Sikhote Alin Biosphere Reserve. This is the region and reserve where the STP biologists conducted their research. But there are also many other Amur tiger researchers and biologists like Alexander Batalov, Tkachenko, Dunishenko etc ...who study tigers in different regions and other reserves, which is in the Khabarovsk territories. Miquelle doesn't research or work with tigers in this region. Although Miquelle is very experienced (25 years of experience), Batalov is a far more experienced expert than Miquelle is, and has over 40 years of field experience studying wild Amur tigers. And according to Batalov, he's 100% certain that a giant male brown bear, possibly weighing over 400 kg, was killed and eaten by a tiger. So this email proves nothing. All it proves is that Miquelle personally doesn't know of a case, thats it. Also, K.G. Abramov, a renowned Russian biologist & tiger researcher, reported two cases of large male brown bears killed by tigers. One case was of a large old male brown bear killed by an old male tiger in the southern part of the Sikhote Alin mountain range. (Unpublished notes) This case was mentioned by the zoologist, Mazak in his book: "Der Tiger". (Not the Jankowski account) The other case was this ... A tigress killed a huge male 'Schatun' brown bear out of revenge for killing her cub (K.G. Abramov): The shatun-bear had not eaten anything for several days, he was overcome by an agonizing hunger, he walked around in search of food, but the wild boars left, and the piglets left with them. And the bear was especially fond of tender boar meat. Suddenly the bear raised its head and drew in air: there was no doubt, but he still couldn’t believe it - he got up on his hind legs, looked around, sat down and sniffed again, and now, without stopping, went to the thicket. The tiger cub had just eaten and, contented, nonchalantly stretched out beside the remains of the wild boar. The appearance of the bear was unexpected and therefore especially scary, but the tiger did not retreat, he decided to defend himself. And the animals grabbed! The tiger inflicted well-aimed punches with its paws, tufts of wool flew, the ground was covered in drops of blood. Soon blood flowed from the bear's side, ripped open by tiger's fangs, but the bear, although hungry, was huge, especially its ten-centimeter claws. He finally crushed the tiger under him and lifted it up, and then dined on it and the pig. The next day I finished the leftovers; bones, pieces of skin filled up with branches. The tigress in a rage rolled on the ground near the remains dear to her, then took the trail of the connecting rod, overtook him, jumped at the bear with a huge jump and bit his neck ... Now, with new cubs, the tigress is firmly holding on to the Wangqing Valley. Here, in the rocks, surrounded by dense fir trees, they are almost inaccessible to humans. http://www.ohot-prostory.ru/index.php?op...ew&id=2963 There's no doubt that full-grown adult male brown bears have been hunted, killed and eaten by tigers in at least several cases.
Initially, (last century) it was previously assumed by some researchers that tigers prey on bears when ungulate populations decline, but this opinion was debunked by modern scientific research (1992-2022). Studies and observations made by numerous researchers and biologists in both the Primorsky and Khabarovsk regions show that some tigers habitually hunt bears, and actually prefer killing and eating bears (brown & black bears) instead of ungulate prey animals.
Scientific field research confirms that habitual bear-hunting tigers like 'Dale' (M20) exhibited completely normal and common behaviour for tigers. The tiger 'Ochkarik' is another perfect example of an habitual bear-killer. A report from 2017 confirms that tigers habitually hunting bears is normal. In particular, the recording shows how a large Amur tiger is trying to crawl into the grotto, while in the next recording, a female Far Eastern leopard comes out of the shelter, IA PrimaMedia reports. ...  *This image is copyright of its original author Viktor Storozhuk, a Russian researcher from 'Land of the Leopard' reported: “We specifically checked this cave, making sure that there is only one entrance to it ... There is no need for a tiger to hunt a leopard, most likely, he was looking for a wintering bear in a cave. Some striped predators prefer this "delicacy" to ungulates, this is normal behaviour for them," said Viktor Storozhuk, a research engineer at the Land of the Leopard Federal State Budgetary Institution.  *This image is copyright of its original author https://iz.ru/677772/2017-12-01/tigr-i-l...-natcparke https://primamedia.ru/news/650351/ Bears are one of the Amur tigers top favourite prey, so much so, that their importance in the tigers diet is second only to wild boar and red deer. Some tigers even prefer hunting and eating bears over all ungulate prey animals, with bears (brown bears & black bears) making up a large significant portion of the tigers diet in the summer and fall.  (03-24-2022, 07:15 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: I'm talking about this account, mentioned by biologist Kucherenko, of a tigress that stalked and killed a big male brown bear much larger than herself. This incident was eye-witnessed by his colleague: I don’t know if that’s just a dodgy translation but…slashing a big male brown bear from head to toe with a paw stroke to make its guts spill out, then rolling between the bear’s legs, grabbing it by the tail and hurling it through the air? I’ve got to admit, that description sounds…very fantastical. Like something out of a movie. I couldn’t help but be reminded of this! www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV1bjOKyTnA&t=2m46s My curiosity was piqued, so I read a bit more of the book…thank you for posting the link (I can’t read Russian, but I am semi-fluent in Google Translate)! To add some much-needed context, it appears this particular tale was not a description from a colleague/fellow scientist. It was part of a retelling of a story by a man called Andrei Efremovich, a commercial hunter at whose lodge the author spent some time. Quote:“It is rare for anyone to see the Amur tiger. And not only because his dwellings are dense to impenetrability. Possessing a sensitive ear and sharp eyesight, he detects a person much earlier and acts according to his own understanding. Turns aside or freezes, watching his eternal enemy ... No, he is not afraid of him, but is more curious or plotting something. The painfully bitter experience of communicating with people is now in the tiger's subconscious. After witnessing the tiger and bear altercation, he apparently shot the tigress as a trophy, then found her cubs and sold them for profit to a zoo: Quote:“How many hunters during the years of that merciless war of tigers and people this fierce beast robbed, ruined and even crushed! How many dogs did he gobble up at a time when, for a hunter, she meant the same as a horse for a peasant in suffering ... Just ask a commercial hunter, whom he will shoot first, if, suppose, he sees a tiger, a deer and a wild boar on his site at once? Even if it's a bear. And everyone will answer: if in truth - striped, of course! The same hunter relayed another story about how he was once, as a young man, caught in the middle of a fight with two male tigers while an amorous female in heat flirted with him. When his father arrived and shot the female, he apparently grabbed the gun from him and bum-rushed the two male tigers at close range to kill them both: Quote:“Passions and fears ran high. One animal calmly, as if not a man in front of him, walked along the spit in my direction about ten meters, while glancing at me indifferently, and the other two began to fight. The closest to me turned to the fighters and lay down, watching with interest their occupation. And then I guessed that I was at a tiger's wedding, and two grooms were competing for one bride at once. A completely reliable narration? Well…I’ll leave that up to you. Personally I suspect that these particular accounts are rather more colourful than reality, and should probably be read in the same way that they were framed in the book itself - as stories told by an acquaintance on a cold winter’s night by the fireside. (I’m not actually denying that a tiger could ambush and kill a bear, incidentally. I also think these stories are fascinating in the sense that they give an insight into how strongly the hunter/trapper living in the area feels about tigers (though also unpleasant to read, given that he describes hating and killing them mercilessly), which is why they’re included in the book. I just wouldn’t place as much credibility in them as I would a scientific report or paper!) (03-25-2022, 01:56 PM)LandSeaLion Wrote:(03-24-2022, 07:15 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: I'm talking about this account, mentioned by biologist Kucherenko, of a tigress that stalked and killed a big male brown bear much larger than herself. This incident was eye-witnessed by his colleague: You made some good points and I see where your coming from. However, its also possible that the hunter Andrei Efremovich did actually witness this event, but also exaggerated some details about it. I've seen people do this many times, they'll witness something but exaggerate the story to some extent. Its likely he did witness a tigress attack and kill an adult male brown bear, but probably embellished some of the details of the way the tigress killed the bear. As the description of the book states, its based on factual material, not false stories. Kucherenko, was a renowned Russian biologist, scientist & tiger ecologist, and the fact that he mentioned this specific account in his book, means that he trusted the eye-witness (who he knew very well) and what he witnessed, which also means that Kucherenko didn't doubt a tigress's ability and capabilities of killing a large male brown bear much larger than herself. But I agree, accounts from hunters are not as reliable as a scientific report or paper. But it also doesn't mean it didn't happen. Keep in mind, hunters are in the taiga every day and all year round, they spend time in the forests more than any biologist or researcher does, so they sometimes experience, observe and witness things that no scientific expert ever does. 
The hunter,in order to glorify the tigers that he so easily killed, invented an orgasmic story of a female tigress bringing down a big brown bear by pawing it just a single time.
Hunters are so childish...
It sounds paradoxical to see how some tigers lovers are able to accredit the tigers killer guy's account just because they need to maximize the predatory abilities of the striped cat.
I don't deny the Siberian tiger is able to kill an adult brown bear, but by reading some of you, I am just amazed to see that brown bears are still capable to survive in such an hostile environment. Especially when you're pretending that bears are the favorite tiger's prey.  (03-25-2022, 06:03 PM)Apex Titan Wrote:(03-25-2022, 01:56 PM)LandSeaLion Wrote:(03-24-2022, 07:15 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: I'm talking about this account, mentioned by biologist Kucherenko, of a tigress that stalked and killed a big male brown bear much larger than herself. This incident was eye-witnessed by his colleague: Nice account. It seems to be similar to Sysoev's book called AMBA or the Taiga.  *This image is copyright of its original author He did talk about two male bears killing male tigers. Some consider it to be fictional yet others consider it to be based on eyewitness. His book was also a story but it seems to be included in the 12 kills as below:  *This image is copyright of its original author https://drive.google.com/file/d/10afDwfyao6HMoeBOGhQw4RRkapammvOz/view If we deny one of the 12 cases of the bear's killing tigers, then the other killings should also be denied.  *This image is copyright of its original author https://drive.google.com/file/d/10afDwfyao6HMoeBOGhQw4RRkapammvOz/view Here it says tiger's aggression towards bears is benificial to the population of the latter, since it promotes the "culling" of the weakest individuals.  *This image is copyright of its original author https://vra4nolptzlptdrd2r7prhlabm-adwhj77lcyoafdy-www-amur-info.translate.goog/news/2010/11/26/50626 Here is another article which calls a 150 kg bear very large. I agree Chamlid looks huge though. Hoping that one day there will be specific weighing for him. Here is one of Syseov's opinion:  *This image is copyright of its original author True tigers (like Dale and Misha etc) do hunt bears during summer and autumn as well and some prefer bears yet the general population of tigers seem to prefer ungulates.  *This image is copyright of its original author [b]Siberian tiger prey choices: From left to right - Manchurian wapiti - Wild boar - Sika deer - Siberian roe deer - Bear - Other.[/b] Some tigers have learn to hunt bears yet the account of tigers hunting large brown bears twice their weight seem to be refuted by STP. To be fair, there seems to be no account of bear killing tigers for 30 years either. Regarding your screenshot about the 605 pound tiger, the last sentence says as much as a fully grown male tiger. Most male brown bears outweigh most male tigers but I think a 605 pound male tiger is rather impressive.  *This image is copyright of its original author Baikov 1925 The original translation: "Маньчжурский тигр. Н.А. Байков. Харбин, 1925 г." Особенно крупные тигры справляются и с медведем почти одного с ним веса. Для этого хищник выслеживает мишку и делает засаду обыкновенно на скале или в буреломе с подветренной стороны. Беспечный медведь, ничего не подозревая, медленно идет мимо засады, и тигр бросается на него сверху, хватает когтями одной лапы под подбородок, другой за горло и перекусывает шейные позвонки. Иногда медведь во-время замечает опасность, и тогда, если чувствует себя не в силах бороться с врагом, спасается на ближайшее дерево, куда тигр последовать за ним не может, не умея лазить по деревьям. Случается, что тигр терпеливо ожидает под деревом, пока медведю не надоест сидеть на дереве, и он не спустится вниз, но чаще в таких случаях тигр делает вид, что уходит, а сам следит за медведем, когда тот спустится с дерева, и устраивает ему снова засаду. Словом, ни одно животное в тайге Маньчжурии не гарантировано от нападения страшного хищника, начиная с медведя и кончая зайцем. Человек гарантирован менее всех, как самый беззащитный, если, конечно, он не имеет при себе солидного оружия в виде современной малокалиберной винтовки или штуцера-экспресс. www.sixote-alin.ru/books/baikov/h1.html A different* translation (credited to Warsaw): "A rather big tiger would defeat a bear of almost the same weight. For this purpose, the predator tracks down the bear and makes an ambush, ordinarily on a rock or in wind-fallen trees, taking the side against the wind. Carelessly a bear slowly goes by an ambush, suspecting nothing, and the tiger rushes out on it from above, its one paw claws under the bear's chin, the other paw at the throat, and the tiger bites through the neck vertebrae. Sometimes the bear notices the danger in time, and not feeling able to struggle with this enemy, it escapes into the nearest tree, where the tiger cannot follow, being unable to climb the trees. It is possible that the tiger would patiently wait under the tree, till the bear is tired out of sitting in the tree and then it comes down, but more often in such cases the tiger would pretend to be leaving the place, whereas it would hide in a new ambush and watch the bear come down. In a word, there is no animal in the Manchurian taiga guaranteed against attack of the terrible predator, starting from the bear and finishing with the hare. The man is guaranteed less than others, as most defenseless, of course, if he is not armed with a good weapon such as a modern small caliber rifle or a carbine" www.sixote-alin.ru/books/baikov/he1.html It seems to confirm the account of tiger's preying on bears their own weight. According to Warsaw, the 2nd translation seems to be more credible (I don't know how to read Russian). I am aware that Sergey Aramilev said a male Ussuri brown bear has a slight chance against a female tigress and a small male. However, he also states that "In general, the tiger tries not to encounter only a person and a large individual brown bear. Everyone else in the forest becomes prey for him" (original Russian translation is below).  *This image is copyright of its original author http://www.businesspress.ru/newspaper/article_mId_43_aId_443089.html  *This image is copyright of its original author https://books.google.com.au/books?id=9xskAAAAMAAJ&q=The+tiger+will+not+attack+the+man+or+large+bear+outside+of+his+territory&dq=The+tiger+will+not+attack+the+man+or+large+bear+outside+of+his+territory&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y Tigers probably are a lot more aggressive in their territory and a lot more cautious outside their territory like leopards and other territorial big cats are.  *This image is copyright of its original author From Siberian tiger center above.  *This image is copyright of its original author Most bears killed seems to be during their active period. However, consumption doesn't necessarily mean predation either. Regarding the 20 minute fight between a male amur tiger and female Ussuri brown bear. Here it is below: It says that the bear was female and that gave tough fight to the tiger (note the tiger crawled back part). Here's the proof. “A strong tiger protects its prey from a brown bear. Here is one such case observed by an amateur hunter V.N. Tvilinev on a September day. Having climbed the ridge of a hill covered with a rare oak tree, about 150 meters away he saw a brown bear with a first-year cub. She left upon a clearing where she found a roe deer eaten by someone and began to eat it. Suddenly the bear stood abruptly on her hind legs, turning her whole body to the side. A large tiger came out of the thicket of hazel, where it was looking, rushing with a roar to the bear. Both animals spun in a fierce fight, crushing one another. The tiger was more often upstairs. About 20 minutes later the bear was finished. The tiger crawled back into the undergrowth. The little bear who was not far away during the fight went to the motionless mother, sniffed her, lay down beside her.” Tigers and other Predators - G.F Gorokhov https://carnivora.net/siberian-tiger-v-ussuri-brown-bear-t8294-s405.html#p111901 Russian biologist M. Krechmar's opinion:  *This image is copyright of its original author Still most male brown bears seem to outweigh a male tiger on average. Most brown bears the same weight as Siberian tigers are female and sub adult. More:  *This image is copyright of its original author https://books.google.com.au/books?id=UCoWAQAAMAAJ&q=Amur+tigers+have+no+natural+enemies+but+it+is+dangerous+for+them+to+tackle+old+wild+boars+or+adult+male+brown+bear++which+are+likely+to+come+offbest+in+such+encounters.&dq=Amur+tigers+have+no+natural+enemies+but+it+is+dangerous+for+them+to+tackle+old+wild+boars+or+adult+male+brown+bear++which+are+likely+to+come+offbest+in+such+encounters.&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&redir_esc=y  *This image is copyright of its original author https://books.google.com.pk/books?id=1VNuzQEACAAJ&dq=bears+of+the+world&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwirneq0ytfzAhWSOewKHTalDl4Q6AF6BAgEEAM It's fair to say most of the tigers rob are female. A tigress with cubs also means more meat to steal. (03-24-2022, 09:18 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: Initially, (last century) it was previously assumed by some researchers that tigers prey on bears when ungulate populations decline, but this opinion was debunked by modern scientific research (1992-2022). Studies and observations made by numerous researchers and biologists in both the Primorsky and Khabarovsk regions show that some tigers habitually hunt bears, and actually prefer killing and eating bears (brown & black bears) instead of ungulate prey animals. Watch: Siberian Tiger Flees Cave of Sleeping Female Leopard (it says large tiger at the bottom) "In addition to showcasing the beautiful feline predators up close, the footage shocked some of the scientists in the reserve when the large tiger fled after sighting the sleeping leopard—an unlikely show of courteousness, or perhaps cowardice." "The tiger was not frightened by the leopard, but more likely he spotted a hibernating bear in the cave.” https://www.newsweek.com/watch-siberian-...8622?amp=1 There is another account on news which seems to say the contrary. Could you explain this please? Thanks. Personally I think the tiger being able to hunt megafauna is impressive. However, a male brown bear with more flexible forearms will be more capable of defending itself up close. Bovines stiff limbs prevent them from defending themselves should a tiger get it by the throat or jump on its back. Off course I don't mind people disagreeing. One thing I can agree, a tiger knowing where to bite will be the quicker killer although being a quicker killer doesn't always mean it will necessarily win in a fight.  *This image is copyright of its original author Found this article on the late Ava. Originally posted by Warsaw, forgot the author and books name but these who posted on Ava might remember. Carnivoran vs carnivoran interaction is interesting and I believe that it is impressive regardless. I do agree that the Ussuri brown bear is not a small animal yet when the age, gender, etc is not mentioned, speculation arises. Sometimes hunters might say ‘wow what a large bear’ as bears are much larger and heavier than humans even as subadults. Another source below: Despite the fact that his diet is dominated by food of plant origin, brown bear is the largest ground-based predator before the Far East. This beast is capable to obtain practically all forms of the mammals: from the mouse-like rodents to the tiger myshevidnyh. In the far Of east are known the cases of the selection of victims by brown bear in Amur tiger and leopard. In of the Of sikhote-Alin preserve before 35% of cases of the victim of tiger they were obtained by the brown bear as a result of their selection from owners. In this case the tigers departed based on their victim entirely, or alternately divided them with the bear. [Seryodkin] and other, 2005). (Seryodkin et al, 2005).  *This image is copyright of its original author Some might be rob while others might be obtain after the tiger departs. A tiger can smell a bear approaching from a far distance away, it also depends on how hungry and how large the bear is at that time. (03-25-2022, 10:02 PM)Spalea Wrote: The hunter,in order to glorify the tigers that he so easily killed, invented an orgasmic story of a female tigress bringing down a big brown bear by pawing it just a single time. And you know this for certain, based on what evidence? Or based on pure guesswork? Quote:It sounds paradoxical to see how some tigers lovers are able to accredit the tigers killer guy's account just because they need to maximize the predatory abilities of the striped cat. No doubt that the hunter was a extremely vile and worthless scumbag who killed tigers, but that doesn't mean his story is false. Kucherenko, who was a renowned tiger biologist, scientist and researcher, who spent his entire life studying and working to protect wild Amur tigers, believes the hunters account. So what does that show you? I clearly said its likely that the hunter exaggerated some of the details of his story, but unlike you, I'm not gonna ignorantly dismiss his entire story because he was a tiger hunter. So its NOT "paradoxical" to believe his account, period. When did I say that bears are THE tigers favourite prey?? Show me? I said SOME tigers habitually hunt bears and prefer killing and eating bears over ungulate prey animals. For some tigers, bears are their favourite prey item, this is a documented fact. Although wild boar and red deer, in general, are the primary food source for tigers, bears come in second, and are one of the tigers top favourite prey. This is a scientifically established fact (confirmed by peer-reviewed studies). In the summer and fall when bears are available to hunt, tigers regularly prey on them. In fact, bears were more important in the tigers diet (during summer) than wild boar and deer. I posted the info, which your clearly ignoring. So who's the one pretending now? "Traditional methods based on snow tracking may overestimate large-ungulate kill rates by tigers, hindering tiger conservation efforts in the Russian Far East. A prediction of this hypothesis would be an increase in summer predation on bears and other smaller mammals that are hibernating and less accessible during the winter months." "Recent scat analysis research in the Russian Far East has shown non-ungulate prey species are present in tiger scat significantly more often during the summer months." https://www.speciesconservation.org/case...-tiger/412 "Take diet for example: kills can be found more easily in summer, from which it has emerged that badgers and bears are more important in the tigers diet that thought before."  *This image is copyright of its original author https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/A...frontcover
@GreenGrolar
Quote:Nice account. It seems to be similar to Sysoev's book called AMBA or the Taiga. No, Sysoev's story 'AMBA' was a fictional tale for children. Look it up, this was also proven on Carnivora forum, remember? Warsaw knows this as well. Sysoev was an author of at least five fictional books. The Sysoev account included in those 12 cases of brown bears killing tigers, is not referring to the AMBA story, but to a different account of a large male brown bear killing a tigress. Quote:Here it says tiger's aggression towards bears is benificial to the population of the latter, since it promotes the "culling" of the weakest individuals. This is a very old, outdated assumption made by Kostoglod (1977) which has been debunked by numerous modern research and studies on tiger predation on bears. You need to understand that many of the old assumptions made by some researchers in the last century, have been refuted by far more recent (21st century) studies and field research. For example, some old-time biologists previously assumed that tigers usually attack bears only when ungulate populations decline. But numerous modern scientific studies, observations and research from many modern day biologists and zoologists, clearly debunk this old assumption. Bears are regularly hunted by tigers (even habitually by some individuals) even when ungulate populations are thriving. Bears (brown & black bears) are predominantly hunted and killed by tigers in the summer and fall (due to availability), this is the seasons when bears are at their peak weights and condition. Note, modern day researchers like Miquelle, Seryodkin, Kerley, Goodrich, Petrunenko (and many others) etc.... have never once stated or even suggested that tigers mostly prey on "weakened" bears. Their studies and observations show the exact opposite. That says it all. You should stop referring to old, outdated assumptions and speculations made by old researchers in the last century, its pointless, and its been debunked by modern scientific research. (1992-2022) Quote:Here is another article which calls a 150 kg bear very large. I agree Chamlid looks huge though. Hoping that one day there will be specific weighing for him. Yes, but remember, that article is referring to a connecting-rod bear, which is a emaciated shatun brown bear. Chlamid was not a "connecting-rod" bear, he was a incredibly huge, healthy and fattened up brown bear who was enjoying many free protein meals by usurping the tigress's kills. Quote:Here is one of Syseov's opinion: I know, I've seen this source before. Sysoev's statement does imply that he likely favoured a large male brown bear over a tiger in a fight. Quote:True tigers (like Dale and Misha etc) do hunt bears during summer and autumn as well and some prefer bears yet the general population of tigers seem to prefer ungulates. Ungulates, particularly wild boars and deer are the primary food source for Amur tigers, however, bears are still regularly hunted in summer and fall. You need to realise that bears hibernate for 6 months in the taiga, for at least half a year, bears (in general) are not available for tigers to predate on. Especially brown bears who hibernate on the upper part of steep slopes, which makes them even more inaccessible for tigers to prey on. There's many factors you need to consider. Hence why in summer and fall, when bears are available to hunt, and fattening up on the pine nuts and acorns, tigers often hunt them: *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Quote:Some tigers have learn to hunt bears yet the account of tigers hunting large brown bears twice their weight seem to be refuted by STP. To be fair, there seems to be no account of bear killing tigers for 30 years either. I agree, the account of the tiger (Dale) killing large male brown bears twice his own weight was refuted by STP. Dale hunted and killed large female brown bears around his own size and weight (176 - 206 kg). Quote:I am aware that Sergey Aramilev said a male Ussuri brown bear has a slight chance against a female tigress and a small male. However, Aramilev made that statement many years ago. (2007) His recent statements (2020-2021) strongly suggest otherwise and confirm that he heavily favours an adult male tiger in a fight against a very large male brown bear weighing 400-600 kg. So do most naturalists and experts. Quote: OK, this source is blatantly wrong. Its an established fact (from biologists & researchers) that tigers do attack and kill large bears, not "avoid" them. I posted the evidence. And tigers actively hunt bears in their territory all the time. So what the hell are these authors on about? The authors of this book source seem to be clueless and are reporting misinformation. Quote: Boris killed two brown bears on record, not one bear. Several reports confirm this. Quote:Most bears killed seems to be during their active period. However, consumption doesn't necessarily mean predation either. Yes, but the vast majority of bears eaten by tigers were killed by the latter, not scavenged. This is determined by field biologists and researchers. Otherwise bears would be randomly dropping dead at alarming rates in summer and autumn, which makes no sense. Quote:Russian biologist M. Krechmar's opinion: I've seen Krechmar's opinion. It was initially posted by Warsaw on Carnivora forum. But still, majority of biologists and experts favour the tiger in a fight against a large male brown bear. Kucherenko stated that in fights between tigers and very large brown bears, the tiger is more often the winner: "The Amur tiger has no enemies. Only a very large brown bear can master it. In the Ussuri taiga, slaughter of these two giants is not uncommon. In some cases, bears are victorious, but more often tigers; both rarely leave the place of the bloody meeting alive, fight to the death. The vanquished is eaten."  *This image is copyright of its original author https://www.m24.ru/articles/lekcii/05052014/42860 This was originally reported by Sergey Petrovich Kucherenko: "A well-known Far Eastern hunting biologist, one of the best experts in predatory animals, in a fascinating way introduces readers to their way of life, habits, assesses the role of predators in nature and in relationships with humans, urges us to take care of our younger brothers." http://maxima-library.org/mob/b/468094?format=read From the Russian experts of the Amur tiger center "An adult brown bear is far more massive than the Siberian tiger. It can reach 400, 500, sometimes 600 kg in weight. Tigers do not grow to this size, but they compensate for their lower weight with more developed hunting skills. In other words, a tiger knows better how and where to bite to kill it’s prey. Both predators seem to realize each other’s strength and prefer to keep armed neutrality. Conflicts happen when a hungry bear tries to take the food away from the tiger. Or if one of the opponents realizes his superiority." ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ "And what if a conflict is inevitable? Specialists have collected some data: about half of the fights end up with deadly wounds for both predators. Other fights end equally with the tiger's or bear's victory." ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ "Result of a brawl depends on the size and weight of animals. A large bear has more chances against a tigress or a small tiger. Large adult male tiger is likely to win against any bear." https://www.instagram.com/p/B9WE1B0IvUq/...d1e1ddec05 Referring to fights between tigers and brown bears: "The outcome of the struggle is often decided in favour of the tiger, but cases when the bear managed to kill the enemy are also known." https://www.google.com/search?safe=stric...CSDeRl8k0g American naturalist Joseph Kullmann set out to find out who is the best in the animal world. He studies all cases of one-on-one fights and based on his research, experienced Russian hunters report that in fights between tigers and brown bears, the tiger is the usual winner, and also hunts the brown bear. "Hunters of Primorsky Krai talk about fights between tigers and brown bears. The winner is more often the tigers, who do not just fight for prey, but specifically hunt clubfoot."  *This image is copyright of its original author https://www.eg.ru/society/15083-kto-iz-jivotnyh-silnee/ Quote:It's fair to say most of the tigers rob are female. A tigress with cubs also means more meat to steal. Yes, the context to these cases of brown bears usurping kills from "tigers", are ALL female tigers. Extensive scientific research (many decades) confirms that even huge male brown bears strictly avoid contesting adult male tigers, as the risk is too high for the bear. Even a huge bear is not gonna risk life and limb trying to usurp the kill of an adult male tiger, its too dangerous, the much smaller female tiger is the safer option. Adult male tigers usually dominate kill-disputes with brown bears. From zoologist - Bernhard Grzimek "Apart from humans, the Amur tiger has no enemies that could pose a threat to it. At the very most, a few unsupervised young animals might fall victim to the brown bear. When adult tigers encounter bears, surprisingly, Matjushkyn reported, the bear almost always surrenders its meal to the tiger.".. "Before he told me that, I would have bet my money on the bear, but he followed tiger tracks on ski's for several winters, and he should know."  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=c7gR...4Q6AEIKzAA Matyuskin personally told this to zoologist, Grzimek. Here's another source stating that the Brown bear is known to give up its kill to a tiger, rather than fight:  *This image is copyright of its original author https://archive.org/details/beachamsinte...Species%2C
@Apex Titan : " When did I say that bears are THE tigers favourite prey?? Show me? " ... OK, I show you:
" Bears are one of the Amur tigers top favourite prey ". At the #828, two lines before the end. OK, I concede, you only wrote "one of the top..."
@Apex Titan :
As concerns the hunters, I'm not withdrawing it because I never take care of what they claim. These people are essentially bad. Hunters systematicely kill the biggest animals among their "prey"/wild game in contrary of the natural predators which at first eliminate the weakest animals of every specy they hunt. Result: the natural predators leave the strongest surviving in wild, the hunters killing the strongest ones, leave the animal communities sorely depleted.
@GreenGrolar
Quote:Watch: Siberian Tiger Flees Cave of Sleeping Female Leopard (it says large tiger at the bottom) The author of the article you posted is clearly lying, reporting wrong info, and seems to have deliberately not reported the full context of Viktor Storozhuk's statement. The footage doesn't show the tiger "fleeing" or being "frightened" by anything. Where the hell did the author get this from? What video was he watching? lol... Neither did any of the researchers and authorities state this. The tiger looked in the cave in hopes of finding a sleeping bear to kill and eat, but there was no bear, so the tiger left the cave. Here's the full context (facts) to Viktor Storozhuk's statement: *This image is copyright of its original author https://iz.ru/677772/2017-12-01/tigr-i-l...-natcparke https://primamedia.ru/news/650351/ Look, the Amur Tiger Programme reported the same thing:  *This image is copyright of its original author http://programmes.putin.kremlin.ru/en/tiger/news/25644 Adult male tigers actively hunt bears and a sleeping bear is easy pickings for a tiger, so a male tiger would never get "frightened" or retreat from a hibernating bear, thats ridiculous. The tiger was hunting for a bear. Your article is clearly wrong. Quote: Another source reporting blatant misinformation. This source states: "Scientists report about 12 incidents when tigers were killed and eaten by brown bears (most of which were female and male adult tigers). That is completely false. There's not a single account in history of a brown bear killing an adult male tiger, none. Those 12 cases consisted of tigresses, few young males and cubs. Not a single adult male tiger killed. It also states: "Tigers will usually stand their ground and defend their kills, unless the bear is a large male." Again, this is false. Tigers are well known to fiercely defend their kills even against large male brown bears. In fact, large male brown bears clearly avoid contesting male tigers kills and only occasionally contest a tigress's kill. Which is confirmed by scientific field research. The source of this screen-shot is unknown, its very unreliable. Quote:Another source below: All cases were of tigresses and young individuals, and you know that. So no point of posting this source. During the study period (1992-2003) field researchers and biologists found only 11 cases of brown bears (adult males) usurping the kills of female tigers. The 35% is out of few cases. Read the chapter 19 study and see the full context. This is a vague statement. Majority of the time, large male brown bears will wait for the tigress to finish eating and leave the kill, before usurping it. i.e. scavenging on left-overs. This is the most typical case observed and determined by biologists. From the Siberian Tiger Project:  *This image is copyright of its original author
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