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Amur Tigers

Apex Titan Offline
Regular Member
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( This post was last modified: 04-21-2022, 07:58 PM by Apex Titan )

@GreenGrolar 

I was wondering, have you ever seen or heard of a reliable account of a Ussuri brown bear ever killing a large male wild boar?  A certain bear poster claims (based on nothing) that adult male brown bears will readily prey on large male Ussuri wild boars, whereas the tiger (based on pure guesswork, as always) usually "avoids" hunting large male wild boars and even moose. He has no shred of evidence to back up these baseless claims.

Can you ask the administrator of the bear forum to show you just one single account of a Ussuri brown bear killing a large male wild boar?

There are countless accounts of Amur tigers and tigresses hunting and killing large male wild boars. In fact, there's also numerous accounts of inexperienced juvenile tigers/tigresses successfully hunting and killing large male Ussuri wild boars. Amur tigers, including females & youngsters, have no problems at hunting and killing big mature male wild boars. Cases of large male Ussuri wild boars injuring, let alone killing a tiger are extremely rare, its barely ever happened, despite being regularly attacked and killed by tigers.

I know adult male brown bears have hunted adult male wild boars, but there's a big difference between a average-sized adult male wild boar, and a fully mature (seasoned) large male boar that tigers readily prey on. I've looked, but never found a single account of even a big male brown bear successfully hunting a big male wild boar. Got any accounts of this happening?

Here's a wild interaction between an adult Ussuri brown bear and a wild boar. After a short skirmish, the bear runs away from the wild boar:






The footage is from this documentary "Where the Amur tigers roam" featuring biologist Kucherenko & a young Alexander Batalov: (Go to the 5:12 mark and see the full interaction)






Here's hard evidence and clear proof for the administrator of the bear forum, who deliberately tries to degrade the Amur tigers formidable hunting prowess and feats. 

Not only do adult tigers readily prey on large male wild boars, but even young, inexperienced tigers/tigresses successfully hunt and kill large male wild boars, large adult moose and even adult bears.

From the legendary Russian explorer/naturalist - V.K. Arseniev

The only animal that the Russian wild boar fears, is the tiger:




*This image is copyright of its original author


https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.../page/n335

Amur tigers (tigresses, juvenile tigers) killing large male wild boars & very large adult moose:

"The Amur tiger Borya, released in the taiga by President Vladimir Putin in May 2014, along with the tigress Svetlana prey on bears in the forests of the Zhuravliny Wildlife Sanctuary in the Jewish Autonomous Region, Newsru.com reports citing the Tiger Center public organization."

"The audit showed that tigers not only successfully hunt wild boars and red deer, but also adult bears and moose. Specialists found at the site of the tiger meal the remains of very large individuals of moose at the age of three to four years.”

https://www.amur.info/news/2016/12/02/118653

https://www.newsru.com/russia/01dec2016/tigers.html

Juvenile tigress "Elena" killed a full-grown bull moose: (In Russia, moose are commonly called "Elk", and the elk deer are called "Wapiti")

Having reached one cluster, where Elena, judging by the incoming signals, spent the whole day on March 17, scientists discovered the remains of an adult male moose. The successful hunt for the largest hoofed animal of the Khingan Reserve became a bright final chord for the young tigress in the development of accessible food objects - now the predator has a complete set. By the way, her brother Pavlik got his first sokhaty-three-year-old back in August last year - three months after being released into the wild. Elena took longer to do this, but the quarry she extracted was larger and older than that obtained by Pavlik.

“As it was possible to establish on the spot, Elena’s hunting for the sukhoi was not provoked by the low abundance of other ungulates in her habitat: in this region there are a stable high abundance of wild boar, red deer, and roe deer. Apparently, the tigress wanted to test herself in the prey of such a large ungulate, and she successfully coped with it. Thus, there are no ungulate species left in the reserve that the tigress has not yet obtained: previously we recorded her successful hunts for wild boars, red deer and roe deer, ”comments Vyacheslav Kastrikin , deputy director of the Khingan Nature Reserve.

Remains of the adult bull moose that was killed and eaten by the young tigress:


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http://amur-tiger.ru/ru/press_center/news/1416/

This same young tigress hunted and killed a bear:  (6 September, 2020)




*This image is copyright of its original author

http://amur-tiger.ru/ru/press_center/news/1477/

https://livebir.ru/siela-miedviedia-i/


This tigress, as a young juvenile, also hunted and killed a large male wild boar:



*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.amur.info/news/2019/06/13/155452

http://programmes.putin.kremlin.ru/en/tiger/news/25882

https://mir24.tv/news/16364780/ne-zlite-...-ei-kabana

Employees of the reserve, following the trail of tigers, found the remains of wild animals. So the tigress Elena crushed a large boar. “They examined Pavlik’s clusters and confirmed that he caught a roe deer and a wolf,” Vyacheslav Kastrikin, deputy director of the Khingan Reserve, told Amurskaya Pravda.

https://ampravda.ru/2019/06/13/089037.html


The tiger 'Beast' killed a large wild boar and a Himalayan black bear:

"It was possible to observe his successful hunt twice: first, the giant cat crushed a large boar and savored the carcass for a couple of days, then a Himalayan bear became its prey, which, by the way, is not uncommon in the diet of a striped predator."

https://todaykhv.ru/news/society/29772/?...um=desktop


Russian tiger biologist, naturalist & ranger, Vladimir Troinin eye-witnessed an epic fight, in which a juvenile Amur tiger killed a huge male wild boar, twice its own size, in a fight to the death:

 
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Juvenile Amur tiger kills a large male wild boar in a fight

"All three 1.5-year-old tigers successfully settled in the Amur region."

"The male named Kuzya in the first days of freedom moved to the area of the Uril River in the Arkharinsk region. He crushed a large male wild boar: traces of a tough fight were found. For four days he fed without leaving prey."

https://ampravda.ru/2015/05/19/057430.html



*This image is copyright of its original author


https://xakac.info/news/38308

https://amurinfocenter.org/directions/zh...amura-876/

https://www.interfax-russia.ru/far-east/...kilometrov

https://vladnews.ru/2015-01-06/72799/kre...prezidenta

Juvenile Amur tiger 'Kuzya' hunted and killed a very large wild boar:


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https://russia.wcs.org/en-us/About-Us/Ne...-Wild.aspx


Large male wild boar killed and eaten by a adolescent tiger


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“Recently we have been to one of the mountain ridges of Anyuisky National Park. While studying three spots we found the remains of a large male wild boar proving Uporny’s effective hunt. The size of his victims discovered during the field checks testifies that he easily hunts on large ungulates," comments Alexey Kostyrya,  senior researcher at the Institute of Biology and Soil, the Far Eastern Branch of the Russian Academy of Science.

https://wwf.ru/en/resources/news/biorazn...ogo-kraya/

https://www.dvnovosti.ru/khab/2015/10/22/41252/

https://vk.com/topic-68054567_31221834

Tiger dying from cancer kills and eats a large male boar with just its front paws

Skull of the big male wild boar that was killed and eaten by the weakened, dying tiger:


*This image is copyright of its original author


https://portamur.ru/news/detail/posle-ro...-medvedem/

"Veterinarians said that after the autopsy of a tiger that died in the Amur region, the cause of his death became known: the animal died of cancer of the kidneys and adrenal glands."

"An autopsy showed oncology of the kidneys and adrenal glands. Doctors believe that this is what caused the failure of the hind limbs, complications and, as a result, the death of the tiger. The second tomography showed inflammation in the internal organs, but it was difficult to determine their cause from the image," says in the message.

"The theory that he was injured in a fight with a wild boar is untenable, since in this case either the tiger would have stab wounds and, being weakened, he would die there, or the predator would overcome the enemy."

https://www.tvc.ru/news/show/id/31664

http://www.khingan.ru/view_news.php?id=45

Note, this tiger was already dying and severely weakened from cancer and was paralyzed in the back legs, and it still managed to tackle and kill a large mature male boar, using just its front paws. Then went on to hunt bears and more wild boars.

"Having tracked an animal, a tiger will not run long after its quarry. The only exception is the wild boar, which a tiger chases with tenacity; the predator will systematically kill one after the other, until the entire herd has been destroyed. Subsequently, it will set off to find a new herd. Hunters refer to this method of tiger hunting as "grazing" the pigs"..


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https://archive.org/details/mammalsofsov...4/mode/2up

From Russian biologist; Bromley: Ussuri Wild boar - 1964

"In the same valley of the Fata river, where two families of wild boars lived, a large family bed was found among a pile of oak leaves, and at 400 meters from it, in the bushes of chosenia, was a 160 kg male wild boar killed by a tigress. Judging by the tracks, the tigress ate the prey for two days."


*This image is copyright of its original author



Three big wild boars killed by one tiger

"In 1963, three large boars were found near the Columbus River, killed by the predator not far from one another."

Kucherenko S.P - On the Ecology of the Amur Tiger - 1972

В 1963 г. в районе реки Колумбе были найдены три крупных кабана,убитых хищником невдалеке один от другого"

Кучеренко П.С. "К экологии амурского тигра" 1972

Juvenile Amur tiger 'Pavlik' killed a large wild boar:


*This image is copyright of its original author


http://amur-tiger.ru/ru/press_center/news/1416/


Tigress and cubs feeding on a large wild boar that was killed by a male tiger.

"For the first time, camera traps recorded her together with her sister and mother in 2018. Below is a video in which the whole family feasts on a wild boar killed by an adult tiger, which experts consider the father of the family."

"The boar, apparently, was large: a female with tigresses came to the carcass 3 times in the period from February to April 2018."








N.A. Baikov - The Manchurian Tiger

"Killing a large boar, 10-15 poods of weight, ( 163 kg - 245 kg ) the tiger drags it to a secluded and secret place, usually near to water, and at first devours fleshy parts from thighs, back and abdomen. To be full satiated, it must eat up to 2-3 poods of meat."

https://m.blog.daum.net/han0114/14856906...ory=548077


Adult male wild boar killed and eaten by an Amur tiger in the valley of the Kievsky stream: (from the archive of N.I. Kovalchuk, village of Melniki)


*This image is copyright of its original author



General Director of the Amur Tiger Center, Sergey Aramilev states: that the Amur tiger preys on large wild boars, while the leopards hunt small wild boars:

"The leopard preys more on small animals - roe deer, hare, small wild boars, while the tiger preys on large wild boars, red deer, sika deer, so the overlap of the ecological niche is not so big. And the number of tigers and leopards in Russia is not so high."

https://rg.ru/2018/12/24/reg-dfo/dvuh-am...irodu.html

"In addition, their food preferences also differ. The tigers are very picky about their food. Paradoxically, they prefer wild boars, despite the fact that we have more sika deer - about 22,000-24,000 animals. There are about 6 thousand wild boars, and it seems that the tigers prefer ‘pork’. But the leopards are not inclined to hunt such a strong and dangerous animal, and roe deer or deer are the best choice for leopards."

https://eco-tourism.expert/en/exclusive/...-wild-cats

Even in India & Nepal, Bengal tigers readily prey on large male wild boars. In Chitwan, biologists McDougal and Dr Seidenstecker found that tigers were killing huge wild boars weighing up to 500 lbs. Tigers were selecting and going out of their way to take the larger wild boars:


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https://archive.org/details/tigers00seid

Go to 33:28 in the video; A huge male wild boar running for its life from a tiger:







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Ussuri wild boars are the largest and most aggressive species of wild boars on earth, with large males reaching weights up to 700 lb. Due to its sheer size, strength and armature, its usually too dangerous for leopards to hunt adult male Ussuri wild boars. Nor have I ever heard of a single account of a adult male Ussuri brown bear ever killing a big male wild boar. 

Whereas young juvenile tigers and tigresses have no problems at hunting, fighting and killing large mature male wild boars. It clearly seems that even juvenile, inexperienced tigers are far more capable and willing to attack and kill huge male wild boars than an adult male brown bear is.

Question for the administrator of the bear forum, can you post just one confirmed account of a Ussuri brown bear killing a large male (not average-sized) wild boar?? I'd like to see.

There are numerous accounts of young, inexperienced tigers and tigresses killing big male wild boars, so if what you claim is true, you should have no problem in producing just one single account of a brown bear killing a big male wild boar. Why are there plenty of accounts of tigers killing large male wild boars, but not a single account of a brown bear killing a large male wild boar?

I have even more accounts of Amur tigers killing large male wild boars, but I won't post them all here, because the post will become too long.

The only predator in the taiga that hunts and kills large male wild boars is the tiger.  An adult male brown bear may hunt ordinary (130-150 kg) adult male wild boars, but the huge mature male boars (exceeding 500 lbs) are only taken by the tigers. This is what evidence and modern/historical research strongly suggests.

And in the reserves where moose are available for tigers, tigers, including juveniles hunt and kill even the very large adult bull moose. As the above accounts confirm.
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Australia GreenGrolar Offline
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( This post was last modified: 04-25-2022, 06:00 PM by GreenGrolar )





Here is one.


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https://shaggygod.proboards.com/thread/7...boar%C2%A0

This is the info is (obtained from the now dead Shaggygod forum, the photos there seem to no longer be working there but they are in the Domain of the Bears) where it seems more adult male wild boars have been killed by Siberian tigers. I don't doubt tigers are the much better hunters yet I am still surprise by the results from this chart.

An account of black bear (American) preying on feral hogs:

Black Bear – The black bear is known to prey on feral hogs of all ages; however, the impact of predation by this bear on feral hog populations is not known. Some researchers have speculated that black bears probably kill few if any feral hogs, especially given that an adult hog would represent a formidable adversary for a black bear. In fact, in the 1920s a feral boar in the Okefenokee Swamp was reported to have killed a black bear in a fight between the two animals. Similar accounts of feral boars killing bears during fights in the Ozark Mountains of Arkansas were reported in the 1880s. Being opportunistic, black bears have been reported to raid nylon net live traps used for feral hog control at high elevations in the GSMNP to obtain any trapped hogs contained within these devices.

https://articles.extension.org/pages/63656/natural-predators-of-feral-hogs

This link is about brown bears attacking wild boars in Czech republic:




VIDEO: Wild bear caught on camera attacking boar in eastern Czech Republic

Conservationists estimate that there are three brown bears roaming the Beskydy mountains, and sightings have been increasing
Common question: are there any bears in the Czech Republic?

While the answer is generally no, sightings have been on the increase over the past weeks in the Beskydy mountains near the Czech border with Slovakia.

Last week, a report of a bear pursuing a wild boar through the Masaryk riverbed in Beskydy was reported, following other sightings of bears in the area.

On Tuesday, a bear was caught on camera attacking a wild boar in the forests surrounding the village of Staré Hamry.

In both cases, park rangers have confirmed that the bear(s) killed the wild boars.


https://www.expats.cz/czech-news/article/video-wild-bear-caught-on-camera-attacking-boar-in-eastern-czech-republic






Brown bear scaring off a wild boar.






American black bear and wild hog.


*This image is copyright of its original author


I  believe this account means sub adults and females are included in the tiger's menu generally rather than cubs.


Code:
Biologists specifically mention "predation" and "prey item". NOT SCAVENGING. In fact, they never mention that tigers are scavenging on dead bears.

[color=#333333][size=small][font=Roboto, sans-serif][size=large]So please ask the administrator of the bear forum, why does he constantly make stuff up??  Why does he never post any shred of evidence to back up his wild speculations, assumptions and empty claims? [/size][/font][/size][/color]

Its a well known established fact, that Amur tigers actively prey on bears, studies prove it and biologists specifically mention that the significant amount and frequency of bear remains regularly found in tiger scats in summer and autumn is due to tiger predation on bears, and yet the administrator still keeps saying that its because of tigers "feeding on carrion", although this is completely wrong, why?  


While I don't usually answer for other posters, I believe this is one of the accounts he refers to:


*This image is copyright of its original author


Also there are posters who believe that the huge male tiger might have scavenge of the bear as the hunter came across the tiger eating the bear. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

Is the tiger capable of killing the bear (probably about its weight)? Yes. However, some would call the killing unconfirm if one comes across one eating a carcase of another if it has been there for three to four days. It could also mean the tiger might have killed it too.


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Now the question is, where did the administrator of the bear forum, hear that the Ussuri brown bear is the "dominant beast" and "Boss of the woods" in the Ussuri taiga forests ??  Based on what evidence?  According to which expert, biologist or zoologist??  According to which native tribe in this region?

Or is he making stuff up again, like he always does?

I think this is one of the source he might be referring too:


*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/313622177_Searching_for_the_Coexistence_Recipe_a_case_study_of_conflicts_between_people_and_tigers_in_the_Russian_Far_East

SOCIAL ORGANIZATION OF THE NORTHERN TUNGUS BY SERGEI MIKHAILOVICH SHIROKOGOROV- RUSSIAN ANTHROPOLOGIST

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._M._Shirokogoroff

"IF A TIGER OCCUPIES A CERTAIN SMALL VALLEY, NO BEAR OR NO MAN MAY COME TO DISTURB IT” “NEITHER DOES THE TIGER GO TO THE VALLEYS OCCUPIED BY THE LARGE BEAR"
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"THE PLACES BELONGING TO THE BEAR MAY EASILY BE RECOGNIZED BY MAN, BY THE TIGER, OR BY OTHER BEARS”

[b][b]
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"THE TIGER, ACCORDING TO THE TUNGUS, (INDIGENOUS PEOPLE OF SIBERIA), IS NOT SO INTELLIGENT AS THE BEAR”

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https://books.google.pl/books?ei=i7KfUtWXGMSVhQfx4YCQCg&hl=pl&id=_7wmAQAAMAAJ&dq=the+bear+slowly%2Cbut+surely+conquers+the+tiger&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=tiger

Another account:
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https://www.litmir.me/br/?b=153848

Two more:

Various reactions were observed in such situations in the case of bears. One brown bear, which was staying in an area permanently inhabited by tigers, clearly felt himself to be the complete master in that place. Another brown bear, once abruptly turned away from his former path upon his encounter with tiger tracks. But a large, apparently male, Himalayan (or Asiatic black) bear (which we observed visually), like the brown bear that has already been mentioned, clearly did not fear the presence of tigers. He walked along the tiger's tracks and rested in the same wild boar den as did the tiger.


Winter Ecology of the Amur tiger by A.G.Yudakov, I.G.Nikolaev


https://www.google.com/books/edition/Winter_Ecology_of_the_Amur_Tiger_Based_U/tSV9ngEACAAJ?hl=en

S.P. Kucherenko -
www.litmir.me/br/?b=559283&p=32
For the winter, the Manchu brown bear usually lays down in a den. The tiger, having come across it, will not fail to crush its inhabitants and eat it. He does not touch only large males, which he unmistakably recognizes by smell. The smell tells the beast about a lot: the type, sex, age and size of the animal, its physiological state and health, even about the mood and intentions, and also, probably, about many things that we do not know about.



In September 1966, in the upper reaches of the Ussuri, the hunter-fisherman V. Tvilenevwatched a fight between a tiger and a brown bear from a hill under the following circumstances. The she-bear with the bear cub went out to the roe deer that had not been eaten by someone and pounced on her greedily. Suddenly, at some instant, she sharply turned towards the dense hazel and sat down. After a while, a tiger came out of there, saw a bear and immediately, without hesitation, rushed at her. The fight was fierce, swift and accompanied by the roar of both animals. They flew to the sides, then again interlocked in a huge ball, in which flashed first yellow, then brown. The bear cub, meanwhile, was restlessly watching the fight. In the end, the bear calmed down, and the tiger, lying down, very slowly, swaying, went into the bushes. 

Several hours later V. Tvilenev came to the place of the fight. It resembled a plot that had just been grubbed for a vegetable garden - the trees and shrubs that had been torn out by the roots had not yet been removed. A dead bear lay there and then. There was literally no living place on it ... A bear cub whined mournfully at the body of the deceased mother.

Another experienced fisherman K. Poddubny told me: “We were looking for ginseng. In the summer. They ran across our backs, and they roar throughout the taiga ... The tiger seemed to be on top more often, but apparently could not bite through the bear's neck in any way. They flew in the wind. They scattered, roared, grabbed again. Then, we looked, they jumped away from each other and stood, swayed. They harassed each other almost to death. And I think there was no winner, because the tiger scratched out the eyes of the clubfoot and he wandered into the forest , bumping into trees, the tiger did not go, or rather crawled: his legs did not hold ... ".

Of the 17 cases of tiger-brown bear fights that I know for certain in the Sikhote-Alin in 1965-1976 . at eight the animals dispersed, at six the tiger killed the bear, and at three the bear defeated. In addition, nine cases of attacks on bears in dens were recorded, in which the tiger crushed and ate seven adult animals and nine cubs.

Careful observations nevertheless indicate that in the relationship between the Amur tiger and the waking brown bear, the latter is more aggressive, and he chases the tiger and gets involved in a fight at a time when hungry, as a rule, in autumn, when nuts and acorns are in short supply. This is most typical for connecting rods.The tiger voluntarily attacks mainly small bears, knowingly confident of victory. The tigress, protecting the cubs, fights with any bear and dies more often.
According to the materials of the zoologist V.E. Kostogloda, of the 28 cases of fights of these predators studied by him, the priority in attack was on the side of the brown bear; in 11 cases the tiger won, in 9 - the bear , 8 fights ended in vain.
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Australia GreenGrolar Offline
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( This post was last modified: 04-25-2022, 08:36 AM by GreenGrolar )

Code:
Name me another extant apex predator that deliberately (and regularly) hunts and kills another large and dangerous terrestrial carnivore of similar-size, like tigers hunt bears?

Besides the tiger, name me another extant predator that also habitually hunts and kills another large, powerful similar-sized terrestrial carnivore?
None. However, a male brown bear is certainly capable of killing a similar size land semi predator, another bear:


*This image is copyright of its original author

20 y.old male brown bear killed by another male brown bear (Bieszczady Mountains,Poland)

https://carnivora.net/brown-bear-ursus-arctos-t2935-s60.html#p140298

Golden eagles also hunt red foxes and coyotes occassionally and martial eagles do kill jackals.


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Here's the big difference though, tigers, especially in summer and autumn, actively prey on brown bears, and as scientific literature reports (and has documented), adult bears are taken frequently by male tigers. Do golden eagles prey on Eurasian black vultures like tigers hunt and kill brown bears??  We also don't know the relationship between the Barbary lion and Atlas bear, for all we know the lions could have dominated the Atlas bears. But we'll never know, so no point of using that example.

My question was why is the tiger, and not the brown bear, called "Lord, king, owner of the Ussuri taiga and Manchurian taiga by all the natives and experts, biologists?  I'm not talking about tigers being called apex predators, its common knowledge that tigers are the apex predators throughout their entire range in the wild since the Pleistocene. But why is the tiger widely regarded as the 'Lord' and supreme ruler of the taiga, even though they co-exist with one of the largest subspecies of brown bears on earth??

Because the tiger being a full time predator is rank as predator over the brown bear and also hunts them (mainly subadults, young adults and adult females). It does not make sense the call an omnivore an apex predator especially when it is in a similar region as a huge full time carnivore. Golden eagles do not prey on Eurasian black vultures, however, there are records of black eagles killing chicks of griffon vultures (although adult griffons are capable of repelling black eagles which have to gang up in pairs to snag a chick - Vultures of Africa by Peter Mundy) and occasionally kill adults (Scottwolverine1111 posted that accounts). One animal seems to be called a predator over another animal even if the largest of its kind is avoided or generally avoided.

By the way, here is another translation:

The Amur tiger centre instagram profile.


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The messages from the organisation and user.


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Translation:-

User:-"Is an adult male brown bear stronger than an adult male tiger? Tigers prey on them. So i am wondering....?"

Amurtigercentre:-"Hello! It depends that on which male bear and on which male tiger. But a tiger has once been seen eating an adult male they prefer to disperse as no one wants injuries."



*This image is copyright of its original author

User:-"Well, do tiger generally prey on adult male brown bears? And do they kill bears on regular basis?"

Amurtigercentre:-"No, we are not aware of such cases. On regular basis- definetly not, on himalyan-yes."


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The video is not mine.


Just out of curiosity: which bear do you think will beat a Siberian tiger in a fight to death more often than not? Only the larger male brown bear and a polar bear will be able to beat a Siberian tiger, Bengal tiger, and African lion in my opinion, the other bears are too small. (A little off topic: While polar bears are less aggressive than grizzlies, they become aggressive during mating season and the older males will stand their ground - video and account posted on the polar bear thread. While there are accounts of grizzlies killing subadults, no record of mature male polar bears being killed. Ursus Artos posted an account on old carnivora that young males prefer to mate with younger females. Therefore grizzlies probably give mature male polar bears a wide breath during mating season but go for the young but not full grown sexually mature ones). The only other bear that can win might be the exceptionally large American black bear at 600 pounds and above.

Also in addition to the account of tigers depressing the population of black bears and brown bears in China due to predation, it seems that female brown bears choose to give birth to cubs in an area where there is a lack of tiger presence. Male brown bears also prefer to be in an area with an abundance of females:


Code:
Hence, males dispersing west from the population core may prefer to settle in the periphery where competition is low and sheep are available, but relatively close to the core areas where they can get access to females during the mating season (H7).

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0202653
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Brown bear cub and tiger playing. I am not sure if the cub is a Siberian tiger cub.
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Quote:Northeast Tiger Leopard National Park Male Siberian Tiger
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@GreenGrolar 

I'll respond to this post first, then respond to your last post tomorrow.

By the way, your posting irrelevant accounts.

Quote:




I clearly asked for a single account of a Ussuri brown bear killing a LARGE MALE wild boar. This video you posted (which I've seen long time ago) is completely irrelevant, as it shows a brown bear trying to kill an average looking wild boar, that looks like it weighs only around 120 kg.

I'm talking about big male wild boars killed by bears.

Quote:
*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author

This study is very old & outdated from the last century. I think from the 1970's. Why are you basing your conclusion off of one single outdated study from many decades ago?  Does modern research and studies show that brown bears kill more adult male wild boars than tigers do? NO.

The study's results was from the Amur territory, as stated. Well, read this:

"One study from the Amur territory of Russia found that brown bears were actually more prolific killers of wild boars than both tigers and gray wolves, but these results are probably biased due to the scarcity of tigers in the region because of over-hunting of the big cat."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_bi...brown_bear

Now lets look at a more recent study. It shows that 60% of wild boars killed by tigers are adults - of those 50% are male boars and 50% are females:


*This image is copyright of its original author



https://web.archive.org/web/201211011924...tigers.pdf

There's nothing to be surprised about, because the study you posted was from a time period when there was only about 50 Amur tigers (or less) left in the wild, the species was literally at the brink of extinction, hence why brown bears, who were in far greater abundance than tigers, killed more adult male wild boars.

But a much more recent study conducted by Miquelle, Matyushkin, Smirnov, Quigley etc ...showed that the MAJORITY OF WILD BOARS (60%) killed by tigers are adults, and half of those adults (30%) killed are adult male wild boars. Confirming that adult male wild boars are regularly killed by tigers, and more often than by brown bears.

Aramilev states that tigers prey on LARGE wild boars, while the leopards prey on small wild boars:

"The leopard preys more on small animals - roe deer, hare, small wild boars, while the tiger preys on large wild boars, red deer, sika deer, so the overlap of the ecological niche is not so big. And the number of tigers and leopards in Russia is not so high."

https://rg.ru/2018/12/24/reg-dfo/dvuh-am...irodu.html

There is no way that more adult male wild boars are killed by brown bears, than by tigers, when tiger populations in the region are healthy. Tigers are true specialized predators of wild boars and are the only predator in the taiga, as evidence strongly indicates, that hunts and kills 'large' and 'very large' mature male wild boars with no problems. Even juvenile tigers and tigresses hunt and kill them, as the accounts I posted confirm.

Is there any modern data or research showing that brown bears frequently kill adult male wild boars?

And again, this study you posted still didn't prove that brown bears prey on large male wild boars.

Quote:An account of black bear (American) preying on feral hogs:

Black Bear – The black bear is known to prey on feral hogs of all ages; however, the impact of predation by this bear on feral hog populations is not known. Some researchers have speculated that black bears probably kill few if any feral hogs, especially given that an adult hog would represent a formidable adversary for a black bear. In fact, in the 1920s a feral boar in the Okefenokee Swamp was reported to have killed a black bear in a fight between the two animals. Similar accounts of feral boars killing bears during fights in the Ozark Mountains of Arkansas were reported in the 1880s. Being opportunistic, black bears have been reported to raid nylon net live traps used for feral hog control at high elevations in the GSMNP to obtain any trapped hogs contained within these devices.

I don't understand why your posting irrelevant accounts. This account has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Its about black bears killing some feral hogs and even being killed by feral hogs. 

I'm talking about brown bears killing large male Ussuri wild boars, so far, no bear poster has ever been able to produce a single account of this happening.

Quote:VIDEO: Wild bear caught on camera attacking boar in eastern Czech Republic

Conservationists estimate that there are three brown bears roaming the Beskydy mountains, and sightings have been increasing
Common question: are there any bears in the Czech Republic?
While the answer is generally no, sightings have been on the increase over the past weeks in the Beskydy mountains near the Czech border with Slovakia.

Last week, a report of a bear pursuing a wild boar through the Masaryk riverbed in Beskydy was reported, following other sightings of bears in the area.
On Tuesday, a bear was caught on camera attacking a wild boar in the forests surrounding the village of Staré Hamry.

In both cases, park rangers have confirmed that the bear(s) killed the wild boars.

Again, another irrelevant account. We all know that brown bears prey on wild boars, no one is doubting this fact. This article is talking about brown bears killing "wild boars", so?  The general term "wild boar" used also means females, subadults and piglets.

I wanna see evidence of a brown bear killing a large male Ussuri wild boar??  Posting these irrelevant accounts is pointless.

The two other videos you posted also had nothing to do with what I'm talking about or asking you for.

Quote:I  believe this account means sub adults and females are included in the tiger's menu generally rather than cubs.

Yes, as studies show, most brown bears killed by tigers are either adult female brown bears or less often subadult bears. Why do I say "less often" subadult bears??  Because according to Tkachenko's observations, male tigers more often hunted large, adult brown bears, not young bears. Also, the tiger 'Dale' habitually hunted adult female brown bears. Biologists found only one bear cub killed by 'Dale', the rest of the bears killed by him were adults. ( 4 adult female brown bears & one adult male black bear ). 

Dale obviously must have killed hundreds of bears throughout his lifetime. Most of his kills were never found by biologists, but they routinely (over 80%) found remains of bears in his scats.

Note, the Siberian Tiger Project study found mostly adult bears (brown & black bears) killed by tigers, which also confirms Tkachenko's observations and studies.

Its still impressive that when tigers hunt bears, they mostly prey on adult female brown bears (large females included) and adult black bears of any sex, age and size. The bears on the tigers menu are quite large bears, an example:

Adult male Himalayan black bear from Lazovsky reserve, Primorye: ( Common tiger prey )







An adult female Ussuri brown bear from "Land of the Leopard" National Park:


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Female Ussuri brown bear in the Durminskoye Game Reserve:  (Khabarovsk region)


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Its impressive that tigers mostly prey on adult female brown bears and adult (both sexes) black bears. As the pictures show, even these bears are large and very powerful animals, and yet they often fall victim to tiger predation.


Quote:While I don't usually answer for other posters, I believe this is one of the accounts he refers to:


*This image is copyright of its original author


Yes, and its absolutely ridiculous and laughable that the administrator of 'Domain of Bears' forum, ignorantly ignores the statements and conclusions made by actual BIOLOGISTS, RESEARCHERS & ZOOLOGISTS, which prove and confirm that the vast majority of bear flesh consumed by tigers is due to PREDATION, NOT SCAVENGING.

But yet, he bases his opinion and speculation off of just one single statement made in a book by some random authors who are not tiger biologists, experts or zoologists. Where's the common sense and logic in that??

And the administrator claims that "vast majority", but where does it say that "vast majority" of bear flesh consumed by tigers is due to scavenging??  NOWHERE does it even imply that, let alone state that. lol... The administrator of the bear forum is putting his own made-up spin, lying and twisting the words, like he always does.

All the author mentions, is that tigers will even scavenge on dead bears. How the hell does that prove that "vast majority" of bear flesh consumed by tigers is due to scavenging?

Actual scientific studies, research and observations made by numerous biologists, zoologists, researchers & ecologists confirm that the vast majority of bear flesh consumed by tigers is due to predation on bears. Although I have posted a whole landslide of undeniable evidence and sources from scientific literature proving this, the administrator of Domain of bears, deliberately ignores the evidence and continues to talk nonsense, when he knows for a fact that he's completely wrong.

Here's why the STP biologists regularly found bear remains in the tigers excrements during autumn:  (The administrator of the bear forum deliberately ignores this)



*This image is copyright of its original author


This clearly states that tiger KILLS show that in summer, bears are an important prey item in the tigers diet, than thought before:



*This image is copyright of its original author



https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/A...frontcover


I honestly don't believe that the administrator of 'Domain of bears' even believes most of the stuff he says about tigers and bears. Most of his statements clearly look like trolling or out of insecurity of his beliefs. His opinion on tiger vs brown bear is heavily based on guesswork, bias and emotions. And zero evidence.

Quote:Also there are posters who believe that the huge male tiger might have scavenge of the bear as the hunter came across the tiger eating the bear. 

Is the tiger capable of killing the bear (probably about its weight)? Yes. However, some would call the killing unconfirm if one comes across one eating a carcase of another if it has been there for three to four days. It could also mean the tiger might have killed it too.


*This image is copyright of its original author

The only posters who "think" that the tiger "scavenged" on the carcass of the very large male brown bear, are only the bear fanboyz who are in pure denial. (I'm not saying you)

According to the zoologist Mazak and hunter Jankowski who found the dead bear, the male tiger had killed and eaten the huge male brown bear. Now if we consider the fact that tigers hunt and kill brown bears, its more than likely that the tiger had killed the large male brown bear. 

Quote:I think this is one of the source he might be referring too:

SOCIAL ORGANIZATION OF THE NORTHERN TUNGUS BY SERGEI MIKHAILOVICH SHIROKOGOROV- RUSSIAN ANTHROPOLOGIST

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._M._Shirokogoroff

"IF A TIGER OCCUPIES A CERTAIN SMALL VALLEY, NO BEAR OR NO MAN MAY COME TO DISTURB IT” “NEITHER DOES THE TIGER GO TO THE VALLEYS OCCUPIED BY THE LARGE BEAR"

"THE PLACES BELONGING TO THE BEAR MAY EASILY BE RECOGNIZED BY MAN, BY THE TIGER, OR BY OTHER BEARS”

"THE TIGER, ACCORDING TO THE TUNGUS, (INDIGENOUS PEOPLE OF SIBERIA), IS NOT SO INTELLIGENT AS THE BEAR”

How does this source even imply, let alone prove that the brown bear is "Boss of the woods" ?? How?

All it says is that if a tiger occupies a certain valley, then NO BEAR or no man may come disturb it, and neither does the tiger go to the valleys occupied by the large bear. Funny, because tigers are well known (and been reported & documented) hunting and killing large bears. So that statement is clearly incorrect.

Plus, this source mentions absolutely nothing about brown bears being "King of the Ussuri taiga". Its completely irrelevant.

Large bears are prey for male tigers.


V.G. Yudin (biologist, tiger ecologist & researcher) reports that brown bears and black bears are regularly hunted by tigers in summer. And the Russian biologist, zoologist and researcher, Matyushkin reported that LARGE bears are prey for adult male tigers.

DIET OF LARGE PREDATORS ( ON THE EXAMPLE OF THE TIGER ): METHODOLOGICAL ANALYSIS - 2008 V.G. Yudin

"The badger (numerous, widespread and accessible species), raccoon dog, hares (white hare and Manchurian), birds and other small animals, which in summer, along with roe deer and bears (Himalayan and Brown), take on the main pressure of tiger predation."

"As Matyushkin (1992) found out, the tiger usually hunts those ungulates that are more numerous on his site. Not only bull red deer, but even large bears and billhooks (Large mature male wild boars) are physically accessible to an adult male."


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https://old.rgazu.ru/db/vestohotoved/2_5_08f.pdf

Quote:
*This image is copyright of its original author


This statement is FAKE, completely non-existent in any scientific literature. I've debunked and exposed this statement on Carnivora forum. There's not a single study or source that supports those statements, nor did Dale Miquelle, Tkachenko, Gorokhov or Seryodkin ever report or mention that large adult male brown bears "dominate" kill disputes with tigers or are "immune" to tiger predation. This is a BLATANT LIE.


This statement is written in the comment section of Researchgate website. I saw WARSAW referenced there too, lol. Is Warsaw a biologist? zoologist? scientist? No, he's merely a forum poster. I downloaded that study and NOWHERE does it even mention anything about tiger and bear conflicts, let alone those statements. 

You can access the full study (text) here, and see for yourself:

https://library.wcs.org/doi/ctl/view/mid...00000.aspx

I challenge you to show me just one study, scientific paper, article or statement from any of those biologists that substantiates those statements??

Show me a single statistic or account showing that large male brown bears "dominated" kill disputes against male tigers?

Show me a single source where any biologists stated that large male brown bears are virtually immune to tiger predation?

That is nothing but a made-up text with zero evidence to back any of those claims. Add to this the biologists "references" then you have pure misinformation and lies.

Quote:
*This image is copyright of its original author


I've seen this before. Sysoev called brown bears the "landlords" of the forest, but in some of his other books, he refers to the tiger as 'Owner of the taiga' and 'Master of the taiga'. 

So this doesn't really prove anything, as he called tigers 'king of the taiga' etc...

Quote:Various reactions were observed in such situations in the case of bears. One brown bear, which was staying in an area permanently inhabited by tigers, clearly felt himself to be the complete master in that place. Another brown bear, once abruptly turned away from his former path upon his encounter with tiger tracks. But a large, apparently male, Himalayan (or Asiatic black) bear (which we observed visually), like the brown bear that has already been mentioned, clearly did not fear the presence of tigers. He walked along the tiger's tracks and rested in the same wild boar den as did the tiger.

Seen this account many times and many years ago now. It also states: "Another brown bear, once abruptly turned away from his former path upon his encounter with tiger tracks."  So another male brown bear did show fear of tigers.

There's also other accounts proving that some very large male brown bears fear tigers:

However, every Brown bear runs away from an adult Amur tiger, as well as when he ( Referring to male brown bears ) runs across the tigers trail:


*This image is copyright of its original author

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Q9wH...8Q6AEIKTAA

Acta Societatis Zoologicae Bohemicae is an international scientific journal of invertebrate and vertebrate zoology. It publishes original papers on general, applied and systematic zoology, palaeoentomology, soil biology, biographies, obituaries and book reviews. It is understood that manuscripts submitted to this journal are not offered to any other journal for prior or simultaneous publication. All articles are published in English and are peer-reviewed.

https://web.natur.cuni.cz/zoospol/actaangl.htm

Very large male brown bear twice shows fear of tigers, and retreats from a male tigers tracks:



*This image is copyright of its original author


https://aboutzoos.info/images/stories/fi...e_Alin.pdf

Vaillant also mentions that even huge brown bears that can weigh up to 1000 lb, have been known to flee at the sight of a tiger.

Quote:For the winter, the Manchu brown bear usually lays down in a den. The tiger, having come across it, will not fail to crush its inhabitants and eat it. He does not touch only large males, which he unmistakably recognizes by smell. The smell tells the beast about a lot: the type, sex, age and size of the animal, its physiological state and health, even about the mood and intentions, and also, probably, about many things that we do not know about.



In September 1966, in the upper reaches of the Ussuri, the hunter-fisherman V. Tvilenevwatched a fight between a tiger and a brown bear from a hill under the following circumstances. The she-bear with the bear cub went out to the roe deer that had not been eaten by someone and pounced on her greedily. Suddenly, at some instant, she sharply turned towards the dense hazel and sat down. After a while, a tiger came out of there, saw a bear and immediately, without hesitation, rushed at her. The fight was fierce, swift and accompanied by the roar of both animals. They flew to the sides, then again interlocked in a huge ball, in which flashed first yellow, then brown. The bear cub, meanwhile, was restlessly watching the fight. In the end, the bear calmed down, and the tiger, lying down, very slowly, swaying, went into the bushes. 

Several hours later V. Tvilenev came to the place of the fight. It resembled a plot that had just been grubbed for a vegetable garden - the trees and shrubs that had been torn out by the roots had not yet been removed. A dead bear lay there and then. There was literally no living place on it ... A bear cub whined mournfully at the body of the deceased mother.

Another experienced fisherman K. Poddubny told me: “We were looking for ginseng. In the summer. They ran across our backs, and they roar throughout the taiga ... The tiger seemed to be on top more often, but apparently could not bite through the bear's neck in any way. They flew in the wind. They scattered, roared, grabbed again. Then, we looked, they jumped away from each other and stood, swayed. They harassed each other almost to death. And I think there was no winner, because the tiger scratched out the eyes of the clubfoot and he wandered into the forest , bumping into trees, the tiger did not go, or rather crawled: his legs did not hold ... ".

Of the 17 cases of tiger-brown bear fights that I know for certain in the Sikhote-Alin in 1965-1976 . at eight the animals dispersed, at six the tiger killed the bear, and at three the bear defeated. In addition, nine cases of attacks on bears in dens were recorded, in which the tiger crushed and ate seven adult animals and nine cubs.

Careful observations nevertheless indicate that in the relationship between the Amur tiger and the waking brown bear, the latter is more aggressive, and he chases the tiger and gets involved in a fight at a time when hungry, as a rule, in autumn, when nuts and acorns are in short supply. This is most typical for connecting rods.The tiger voluntarily attacks mainly small bears, knowingly confident of victory. The tigress, protecting the cubs, fights with any bear and dies more often.
According to the materials of the zoologist V.E. Kostogloda, of the 28 cases of fights of these predators studied by him, the priority in attack was on the side of the brown bear; in 11 cases the tiger won, in 9 - the bear , 8 fights ended in vain.

Your translation is wrong. Here's the correct translation:


"Voluntarily, the tiger attacks mainly medium-sized bears, being obviously sure of victory." (Not small bears)

http://mur-r.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000023/st011.shtml

https://coollib.com/b/361093-sergey-petr...-tigr/read

Anyways, modern scientific research confirms that tigers even attack and kill large bears around their own size.

Kucherenko also stated:

"The average tiger is always stronger than the average bear."  and...

"A tiger in the prime of life always crushes a bear."

Kucherenko also reported that in fights between tigers and very large brown bears, the tiger is more often the winner:



*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.m24.ru/articles/lekcii/05052014/42860

This was originally stated by Sergey Kucherenko in his book:

http://maxima-library.org/mob/b/468094?format=read

Account of a fierce battle between a tiger and bear, in which the tiger killed the bear:

"The tiger also does not live in a special friendship with the bear, and the hunters told me that once they found a place where two of these animals fought. Both of them clutched near the top of the mountain and rolled down, leaving a wide trail over the grass and bushes, there was no doubt that it was the tiger and the bear that fought. So these animals rolled a few hundred steps. Finally, the tiger crushed the bear, but, probably, the bear also injured the sides of his enemy, because in other places there were large tufts of tiger hair."   

http://az.lib.ru/p/przhewalxskij_n_m/text_0050.shtml

Now, can you stop posting irrelevant accounts and sources, its pointless. I don't want to waste my time responding to them.

I asked you to show me just one account of a Ussuri brown bear killing a large male wild boar, and you couldn't.

I still haven't seen any shred of evidence that even suggests that the male brown bear is "Boss of the woods", like the administrator of the bear forum likes to believe. (and made-up)

Note, I posted plenty of information, sources and articles clearly proving that the Amur tiger is widely regarded as the 'King, lord, master, owner' of the Amur-Ussuri/Manchurian taiga forests, whereas the Ussuri brown bear is viewed as the inferior and weaker animal. I posted clear-cut authentic information showing this.

Why is there plenty of accounts of young, inexperienced juvenile tigers & tigresses hunting and killing large male wild boars with no problems, but not a single case of any brown bear killing a big male Ussuri wild boar??  Brown bears also prey on wild boars, so why don't they hunt the big mature male boars, like tigers do?
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@GreenGrolar 

Quote:None. However, a male brown bear is certainly capable of killing a similar size land semi predator, another bear:

Well, of course.

Quote:Golden eagles also hunt red foxes and coyotes occassionally and martial eagles do kill jackals.

Yes, but not with regularity. 

Amur tigers frequently (and habitually) hunt bears, thats the difference.

Quote:Because the tiger being a full time predator is rank as predator over the brown bear and also hunts them (mainly subadults, young adults and adult females). It does not make sense the call an omnivore an apex predator especially when it is in a similar region as a huge full time carnivore. Golden eagles do not prey on Eurasian black vultures, however, there are records of black eagles killing chicks of griffon vultures (although adult griffons are capable of repelling black eagles which have to gang up in pairs to snag a chick - Vultures of Africa by Peter Mundy) and occasionally kill adults (Scottwolverine1111 posted that accounts). One animal seems to be called a predator over another animal even if the largest of its kind is avoided or generally avoided.

Exactly, thats my point. The reason why the tiger is widely regarded by the natives, as well as by the white European Russians (biologists, zoologists, researchers, hunters, general public etc) as the undisputed lord of the Amur-Ussuri taiga forests, is simply because the tiger is the apex predator at the top of the food-chain that actively hunts and kills the bears in this region. 
See Pavel Fomenko's new recent interview, which I posted in the tiger extinction thread.

As the regions top predator, the Amur tiger is the dominant carnivore in the ecosystem. 

Here's another good source:

In the Russian far east and Northeast China (Manchuria) the tiger, for tens of thousands of years, has been the top predator. To the aboriginal Manchu-Tungus people tigers are the masters of the taiga. In the Amur-Ussuri region the Nanai, Udege, Orochi and Ulchi peoples revered Amba, the tiger, as a totemic animal.

Udege were often called 'Tiger people'. Natives were so much in awe of the tiger that they did not even dare mention its name. If they came upon tiger tracks in the forest, they would bow respectfully and quietly retreat.


*This image is copyright of its original author


https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SoAM...&q&f=false

Quote:By the way, here is another translation:

The Amur tiger centre instagram profile.

Translation:-

User:-"Is an adult male brown bear stronger than an adult male tiger? Tigers prey on them. So i am wondering....?"

Amurtigercentre:-"Hello! It depends that on which male bear and on which male tiger. But a tiger has once been seen eating an adult male they prefer to disperse as no one wants injuries."


User:-"Well, do tiger generally prey on adult male brown bears? And do they kill bears on regular basis?"

Amurtigercentre:-"No, we are not aware of such cases. On regular basis- definetly not, on himalyan-yes."


Interesting, so the Siberian Tiger Center know of a case of a tiger feeding on an adult male brown bear. They implied that the tiger killed the adult male brown bear. So thats a possible, and likely recent killing of an adult male brown bear by a tiger.

Also, remember one thing, the Siberian Tiger Center only monitor tigers in the Amur region. In the Amur region, there's barely any tigers there, only about 4-5 individuals. Most of the Amur tigers are in the Primorsky and Khabarovsk regions of Russia. So the frequency of tiger predation on brown bears in the region monitored by the Siberian Tiger Center, will be very low anyway.

Remember, Seryodkin and Pikunov reported that tiger predation is the main natural cause of brown bear mortality in Sikhote-Alin (Primorye region). In the reserve Tkachenko studied tigers in (1992 - 1995) brown bears made up 18.5% of the tigers diet and Himalayan black bear made up 14.8% in the tigers diet:



*This image is copyright of its original author



"In Lazovsky Reserve in the feeding of the tiger, only Himalayan black bear was recorded (Zhivotchenko, 1981; Khramtsov, 1993). According to other studies performed in middle Sikhote-Alin, it attacks this species more seldom than the brown bear (Bromlei, 1965; Kostoglod, 1977; Seryodkin et al., 2005). Apparently, such a contradiction is explained by the difference of individual ecological conditions in areas where studies were performed. However, the fact that the Himalayan black bear of any sex and age is a typical prey of the tiger is obvious (Sysoev, 1960, 1966; Gorokhov, 1973; Kostoglod, 1977, 1981; Khramtsov,1993; Seryodkin et al., 2005; Yudin and Yudina, 2009; author’s unpublished data)."

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Sp...be361da82a

The frequency of tiger predation on brown bears varies from region to region. Some studies and observations made by biologists showed that brown bears were hunted and killed more often than black bears and vice versa, so it depends on certain factors.

I also posted plenty of scientific information proving that brown bears are regularly hunted by tigers in summer and autumn. The Siberian Tiger Center, who monitor only a few tigers in the Amur region, cannot tell you the full picture of tiger predation on brown bears, because there's plenty of scientific information and reports from numerous biologists & researchers, (from other regions) that confirms that brown bears are frequently hunted and killed by tigers, especially during the summer and autumn months.


Quote:Just out of curiosity: which bear do you think will beat a Siberian tiger in a fight to death more often than not? Only the larger male brown bear and a polar bear will be able to beat a Siberian tiger, Bengal tiger, and African lion in my opinion, the other bears are too small. (A little off topic: While polar bears are less aggressive than grizzlies, they become aggressive during mating season and the older males will stand their ground - video and account posted on the polar bear thread. While there are accounts of grizzlies killing subadults, no record of mature male polar bears being killed. Ursus Artos posted an account on old carnivora that young males prefer to mate with younger females. Therefore grizzlies probably give mature male polar bears a wide breath during mating season but go for the young but not full grown sexually mature ones). The only other bear that can win might be the exceptionally large American black bear at 600 pounds and above.

My opinion is similar to what the Russian experts and biologists recently said about tigers vs brown bears. I favor the tiger over even a much larger bear of any species, simply because the tiger is a far superior killing machine, better armed for killing/combat (deadlier weaponry), much faster, more agile, more powerful (explosive), ferocious and has much greater precision and efficiency than a bear.

I believe (like Batalov certainly does) that Ochkarik, who's estimated to weigh around 180 kg, killed and ate the huge male brown bear 'Chlamid', who was estimated to weigh between 350-420 kg. So if a moderate-sized male tiger can slaughter a massive male brown bear twice his own weight, then I definitely think a tiger would defeat a much larger bear of any species, more often than not.

Russian biologists, zoologists, naturalists and even local hunters know that some big male brown bears (400-600 kg) can outweigh even a big male tiger by several hundred pounds, in spite of this, most of the experts, as well as experienced hunters in the taiga, heavily favor the tiger to win a fight against a huge male brown bear. Why do you think that is?

And when both the tiger and bear are of similar-size (and equal size) and weight, the tiger will dominate the fights and almost always win. Why? because in history, there's never been a single reliable case ever, of a bear ever killing a similar-sized tiger in a fight to the death. Whenever the tiger and bear were of similar size, the tiger always kills and eats the bear. This is what history consistently shows. Bears need a size and weight advantage to stand a chance in a fight against a big cat, because the felids are just too armed, fast, agile and superior killers.

Here's what Colonel Kesri Singh (Who had personal experience with tigers and lions) had to say about the tiger: "Some northern bears are larger, but they lack the tigers tremendous five-fold armament - to say nothing of his agility."



*This image is copyright of its original author



https://archive.org/details/onemanandath...and+tigers

Quote:Also in addition to the account of tigers depressing the population of black bears and brown bears in China due to predation, it seems that female brown bears choose to give birth to cubs in an area where there is a lack of tiger presence. Male brown bears also prefer to be in an area with an abundance of females:

Yes, this is a possibility.

Another possibility is that the female brown bears could have migrated to other areas to avoid being preyed on by tigers, as we know, tigers hunt adult female brown bears more often than they hunt bear cubs. This is what modern research and studies show.
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Camera trap photos of wild Amur tigers:


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*This image is copyright of its original author
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Australia GreenGrolar Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-09-2022, 05:01 PM by GreenGrolar )

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Russian biologists, zoologists, naturalists and even local hunters know that some big male brown bears (400-600 kg) can outweigh even a big male tiger by several hundred pounds, in spite of this, most of the experts, as well as experienced hunters in the taiga, heavily favor the tiger to win a fight against a huge male brown bear. Why do you think that is?

And when both the tiger and bear are of similar-size (and equal size) and weight, the tiger will dominate the fights and almost always win. Why? because in history, there's never been a single reliable case ever, of a bear ever killing a similar-sized tiger in a fight to the death. Whenever the tiger and bear were of similar size, the tiger always kills and eats the bear. This is what history consistently shows. Bears need a size and weight advantage to stand a chance in a fight against a big cat, because the felids are just too armed, fast, agile and superior killers.

*This image is copyright of its original author


I guess this is the source you are referring too right? I believe it is talking about brown bears in general and the potential weight they can achieve. Tigers killing bears their own weight is impressive as pointed out. However, most brown bear subspecies seem to have a certain weight advantage over a Siberian tiger.

Larger males brown bears seem to be able to offer a decent resistance and it said the tiger is far from winning such fights very often yet it has more chance against a tigress and small tiger. Most wild animals prefer to hunt the weaker of their kind even if they have more than a 5/10 chance of killing the stronger one. 

Anyway the tiger is rank as dominant because it is an apex predator and will always have more kills even though it hunts mainly adult females. Although tigers do win at parity, most male brown bears subspecies seem to outweigh a tiger at average weights. I wish these accounts of tigers killing large bears will specify the gender.

Would the the bespectacled tiger killing a male brown bear be an exceptional case as a sloth bear killing a 12 year old Bengal tiger or equally unconfirmed?

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city...912576.cms

I doubt any sloth bear can kill a tiger in a serious fight to death by the way although they have won some skirmishes.


*This image is copyright of its original author


I believe you posted this account on Carnivora which confirms what some of the biologists say. When it says a bear with every advantage probably refers to weight advantage, strength advantage, stronger jaws (if they outweigh a tiger by a decent size and weight advantage) etc (probably refers to larger male brown bears and polar bears at least). At equal weights most Ussuri brown bears are female.


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Here's what Colonel Kesri Singh (Who had personal experience with tigers and lions) had to say about the tiger: "Some northern bears are larger, but they lack the tigers tremendous five-fold armament - to say nothing of his agility."

Tigers do have amazing five fold armaments (agility, better killing bite, stronger jaws pound to pound, sharper claws, explosive) and are way better hunters than even the larger and stronger polar bear which can kill belugas five times its weight (making them the best hunters out of all bears). Larger male polar bears also have stronger jaws overall than tigers and lions (although the tiger and lion has stronger jaws pound to pound) and can bite through beluga hide are quicker killers than brown bears though big cats are quicker killers. There are accounts which says a bear has stronger bones and being a plantigrade can hit harder and will have more strength in pushing and pulling even at equal weights but this might not be the thread to post these accounts. However, the tiger has greater agility, a better killing bite, and a way better hunter, and quicker killer probably balances this out. I acknowledge the tiger has strong bones of its own too. I will post more on morphology at the proper thread. 


Also I agree with you that where there are an equal number of tigers and brown bears, the largest cat will have more wild boar kills on its list. No brown bear can match a tiger when it comes to hunting skills. It is much easier to find tiger on wild boar prey than it is to find a brown bear on one.

Here is something interesting for Dale Miquelle:

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"All i can say is, the Amur can be highly ferocious, and i would consider it more than unsafe to assume otherwise. In regard strengths (relative) The bigcats have reduced collarbones when compared to Ungulates and Bears, which increases flexibility and speed, while compromising ultimate strength potential, however, the Amur is least lacking, among Pantherines, in this department. Finally, the Amur should attain the greatest weight potentials under Bergmans rule but is now Challenged by the movement of Tigers into higher elevations due to the influence of man. Here we might get other Pantherine species facing similar increases in body size. I hope this is of some help."

I know it does not stop tigers from preying on adult bears and ungulates but brown bears do seem to have stronger bones (not saying tigers are weak as they are very powerful). The amur tiger seems to be the least lacking among pantherines might make it the strongest extant cat.

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Russian biologists, zoologists, naturalists and even local hunters know that some big male brown bears (400-600 kg) can outweigh even a big male tiger by several hundred pounds, in spite of this, most of the experts, as well as experienced hunters in the taiga, heavily favor the tiger to win a fight against a huge male brown bear. Why do you think that is?

Because of the tiger's weaponary and killer instinct. Some biologist also favour leopards against gorilla. Yet there are accounts which say that the Siberian tiger will usually avoid a male Ussuri brown bear. From example, Alexander Batalov who said the bespectecled tiger killed Chamlid also said that tigers prefer to avoid male brown bears during mating season:


*This image is copyright of its original author


http://programmes.putin.kremlin.ru/en/tiger/news/25556

This is similar to the account above which says the tiger is far from winning fights very often against a large brown bear which can weigh 400, 500, and 600 kg yet it also says the same large brown bear has a better chance against a tigress and small tiger.
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Australia GreenGrolar Offline
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*This image is copyright of its original author


I do not know if this account has already been posted here but a three year old tiger killing a wild boar is just as impressive as a young male leopard named Schica taking on a veteran male warthog (originally posted by PParadus on late AVA).
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( This post was last modified: 05-12-2022, 07:49 PM by Apex Titan )

@GreenGrolar 

One thing I'll say, your a reasonable bear poster. You don't ignore evidence, you acknowledge the tigers impressive bear killing abilities/prowess and you also acknowledge the fact that tigers prey on large bears their own size and weight. This is good, so we can have a fruitful discussion on this topic.

Unlike some other bear fanboyz, especially the administrator of the bear forum who repeatedly (and deliberately) ignores the evidence and continues to spout lies, personal opinions and pure guesswork.

Quote:I guess this is the source you are referring too right? I believe it is talking about brown bears in general and the potential weight they can achieve. Tigers killing bears their own weight is impressive as pointed out. However, most brown bear subspecies seem to have a certain weight advantage over a Siberian tiger.

Larger males brown bears seem to be able to offer a decent resistance and it said the tiger is far from winning such fights very often yet it has more chance against a tigress and small tiger. Most wild animals prefer to hunt the weaker of their kind even if they have more than a 5/10 chance of killing the stronger one. 

Anyway the tiger is rank as dominant because it is an apex predator and will always have more kills even though it hunts mainly adult females. Although tigers do win at parity, most male brown bears subspecies seem to outweigh a tiger at average weights. I wish these accounts of tigers killing large bears will specify the gender.

A full-grown adult male Ussuri brown bear can weigh just 180 kg. As you know, in bear species, weight variation is very pronounced, more so than any big cat species. Seryodkin captured and weighed 3 adult male brown bears in the Sikhote-Alin Reserve, and one adult male brown bear (in autumn when bears are at their heaviest) weighed just 180 kg, the other two male bears weighed 235 kg and 165 kg. On average yes, male Ussuri brown bears are heavier than male tigers, but some individuals are significantly lighter and smaller than some male tigers.

Dunishenko stated that in fights between a tiger and very large brown bear weighing 400-600 kg, the tiger is far from winning such fights very often. Well, of course, in a fight between a tiger and huge brown bear twice his own weight or more, anything can happen. The tiger won't win such a fight "very often", but still, more often than not, the male tiger will win such a fight. This is what Dunishenko is saying. Notice, he also says tigers do not grow as big, but they compensate for the weight difference with more developed hunting skills. i.e. superior killing abilities and skill.

Hence why Dunishenko (and Aramilev) stated that a very large brown bear has more chances against a tigress or young (small) tiger, but in a fight against an adult male tiger, the bear already has less chances.

In a recent video, Aramilev stated: "An adult male tiger will always kill any bear, but a tigress or young tiger can lose to a large male brown bear."






Not only do Dunishenko and Aramilev favour the tiger in a fight against a huge male brown bear, the Russian zoologist Timofei Bazhenov also stated: "As a rule, the tiger wins."


*This image is copyright of its original author


I agree, I also wish the gender of large brown bears killed by tigers was specified. Here's an example:

Biologist Matyushkin found the remains of an adult brown bear killed by a tiger, but he never specified the gender of the killed bear, or maybe he couldn't because of the remains left. Who know's, but for all we know, this could have been an adult male brown bear killed and eaten by a tiger, its very possible. But all we can do is speculate.


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Translation:

"It is noteworthy, for example, that in such a site in the middle reaches of the Beloborodovsky key, where the valley is compressed by rocky slopes, and its flat bottom is cut through by narrow hollows, along with the animals that died from tigers, the remains of red deer have been found, and the remains of an adult brown bear were also found, most likely also killed by a tiger."


*This image is copyright of its original author


https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/%...frontcover

Also reported by the Moscow society of Naturalists:


*This image is copyright of its original author


https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/B...frontcover

Quote:Would the the bespectacled tiger killing a male brown bear be an exceptional case as a sloth bear killing a 12 year old Bengal tiger or equally unconfirmed?

I doubt any sloth bear can kill a tiger in a serious fight to death by the way although they have won some skirmishes.

The case of the huge sloth bear that allegedly "killed" that 12 year old tiger, was nothing but pure speculation by the forest officials. The report states injuries from a "large carnivore", which could easily (and way more likely) be another tiger. The officials are uncertain as to what happened to that tiger, the report is pure guesswork. They found no signs at all, of a fight between the old tiger and sloth bear. That says it all.

Unlike Batalov, who is 100% certain, and has no doubts, that the tiger 'Ochkarik' killed the huge male brown bear 'Chlamid'. So these two cases don't compare.

Yes, no sloth bear stands a chance of killing a tiger in a fight, period. Its a complete mismatch.

Quote:I believe you posted this account on Carnivora which confirms what some of the biologists say. When it says a bear with every advantage probably refers to weight advantage, strength advantage, stronger jaws (if they outweigh a tiger by a decent size and weight advantage) etc (probably refers to larger male brown bears and polar bears at least). At equal weights most Ussuri brown bears are female.


*This image is copyright of its original author

It says the bear with "every advantage", which also means with a sneak attack advantage, as mentioned also. 

Quote:Tigers do have amazing five fold armaments (agility, better killing bite, stronger jaws pound to pound, sharper claws, explosive) and are way better hunters than even the larger and stronger polar bear which can kill belugas five times its weight (making them the best hunters out of all bears). Larger male polar bears also have stronger jaws overall than tigers and lions (although the tiger and lion has stronger jaws pound to pound) and can bite through beluga hide are quicker killers than brown bears though big cats are quicker killers. There are accounts which says a bear has stronger bones and being a plantigrade can hit harder and will have more strength in pushing and pulling even at equal weights but this might not be the thread to post these accounts. However, the tiger has greater agility, a better killing bite, and a way better hunter, and quicker killer probably balances this out. I acknowledge the tiger has strong bones of its own too. I will post more on morphology at the proper thread. 

Also I agree with you that where there are an equal number of tigers and brown bears, the largest cat will have more wild boar kills on its list. No brown bear can match a tiger when it comes to hunting skills. It is much easier to find tiger on wild boar prey than it is to find a brown bear on one.

Also, remember, the tiger is more powerful than a bear. The brown bear is more stronger (referring to brute strength), but the tiger is more physically powerful/explosive. Power is different from strength. The tiger can generate its strength in a much quicker fashion with greater velocity and energy output. Which makes the tiger more powerful.

There's also the tigers huge canines, which are the largest of all the worlds terrestrial carnivores. Even a young tiger or tigress has canines that dwarf even the biggest male brown bears canines, which are generally small. So overall, the tiger has deadlier weaponry than any bear, being a natural born killer and pure predator.

No comparison here; Just look at the huge size difference in canines: The big grizzly is badly outclassed....


*This image is copyright of its original author



There doesn't have to be an equal amount of tigers and brown bears in the same area, for tigers to have more wild boar kills. There just has to be at least a decent amount of tigers in the area. Bears (brown & Himalayan bears) have always outnumbered tigers in the Russian Far East. Omnivores (bears) and ungulates always outnumber hyper-carnivorous apex predators, naturally.

In the study you posted from 1960's (or 1970's) in the Amur territory, there were barely any tigers left. They were at the brink of extinction, I think less than 50 individuals left in the entire Russian Far East. Whereas bears have always been abundant. Thats why the results were heavily biased towards brown bears having more adult wild boar kills.

But as tiger numbers increased over time, much more recent studies showed that tigers frequently hunt and kill adult male wild boar, and kill adult male wild boar at a greater frequency than brown bears, with tigers successfully hunting, fighting and killing even huge male wild boars.

Plenty of evidence and recent accounts confirms, that tigers (even juveniles, tigresses & adolescents) readily attack and kill large mature male wild boars, whereas brown bears clearly seem to avoid the big male boars.

I don't think there's any modern studies that show that brown bears frequently hunt adult male wild boars, when they hunt boars. Know of any?

Quote:I know it does not stop tigers from preying on adult bears and ungulates but brown bears do seem to have stronger bones (not saying tigers are weak as they are very powerful). The amur tiger seems to be the least lacking among pantherines might make it the strongest extant cat.

I agree with Miquelle's statement. Brown bears are built more robust than tigers, whereas tigers are built more for athleticism, speed, agility and greater power.

Although the brute strength of a tiger is legendary; Here's a tiger flipping over the carcass of a large bull gaur it had killed:







Quote:Because of the tiger's weaponary and killer instinct. Some biologist also favour leopards against gorilla. Yet there are accounts which say that the Siberian tiger will usually avoid a male Ussuri brown bear. From example, Alexander Batalov who said the bespectecled tiger killed Chamlid also said that tigers prefer to avoid male brown bears during mating season:

This is similar to the account above which says the tiger is far from winning fights very often against a large brown bear which can weigh 400, 500, and 600 kg yet it also says the same large brown bear has a better chance against a tigress and small tiger.

Yes, but remember, the mating season is different from in general (All seasons).

Batalov also reported that when tigers hunt bears (in summer) some male tigers can attack almost any bear. Which clearly implies that adult male brown bears can be preyed on by some male tigers:


*This image is copyright of its original author



Also, in the Durminsky reserve where Batalov works in, brown bears are rare because they avoid areas inhabited by tigers:


*This image is copyright of its original author


https://www.hab.kp.ru/daily/27360.5/4541287/


We have reliable information and recent reports (2018-2022) which proves that tigers dominate and depress brown bear populations in Primorye, Khabarovsk and Northeast China. This is clear dominance from the tiger over the brown bear.

Also here's an important thing to note, not a single report or expert has said that only "female brown bears" and "young brown bears" are avoiding tigers. Reports clearly state: "brown bears" in general, which strongly indicates that brown bears of all genders and ages generally avoid areas inhabited by tigers.

The administrator of the bear forum, like always, is merely speculating based off zero evidence, that only adult female brown bears are vacating areas heavily populated by tigers. There's no shred of evidence to support his empty claims. Reports suggest that brown bears in GENERAL, (including adult male bears) avoid areas with tigers. And this point is very valid, because there are several cases observed and reported by biologists of male brown bears showing fear of tigers and avoiding them.

Even Vaillant, who talked to numerous experts and authorities, stated that although Ussuri brown bears can reach 1000 lb in weight, they have been known to flee at the sight of a tiger. So some, not all, but some full-grown adult male brown bears, even large male bears do fear tigers.

Hunter J Alain Smith travels to the Russian Far East to hunt some bears, and after a tiger sighting in the area, the next day he is told by the Russian forest rangers and guides, that they have to leave the area, because with a tiger lurking in the vicinity, the bears won't come out because "all of these bears are afraid of the tigers."

Go to the 13:18 mark:






There's just too much recent (and consistent) evidence now, that clearly proves that bears in general fear tigers and avoid them and areas inhabited by tigers. This is one of the reasons why Amur tigers are widely regarded as the owners and lord of the Amur-Ussuri forests.
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United Arab Emirates Jerricson Offline
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Specimens from northeast China
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( This post was last modified: 05-16-2022, 06:50 PM by Apex Titan )

Zhao Yan is a ranger in the Hunchun Bureau of China's Northeast Tiger and Leopard National Park and has been working in conservation for twelve years.


*This image is copyright of its original author


In the video, he says that the palm pads of male Amur tigers are typically from 10.5 to 13 cm wide. The largest palm pad width he has seen is 14.5 cm. That is from a giant male tiger! The huge male Amur tiger nicknamed "Beast" aka "The monster" tiger from the Khabarovsk territory in Far East Russia, who was famed for his immense size, had a huge palm pad width of 13.5 cm. But a male Amur tiger from Northeast China has a even larger palm pad width of 14.5 cm. Indicating that there are even bigger Amur tigers out there than the 'Beast'.

At the one minute mark in the video:

https://m.weibo.cn/status/4761802263495677


Some video footages recently captured of huge, robust and very powerful looking male Amur tigers from Northeast China:
























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Male tiger and male brown bear comparison, photo from Durmin Game Reserve, April 2022. (Photo: Alexander Batalov)

If the tiger was stood closer to the tree like the bear is, the tiger would be taller:


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Yeon Gyu Hahn (studied masters in wildlife biology & conservation) comments that Siberian tigers are indeed reducing both brown bear and black bear populations, according to recent studies in Northeast China:


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https://www.facebook.com/amurtigercenter...8719227256
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A young tigress walks along the coast in Sikhote-Alin (Blagodatnoye tract):







The young male tiger T-72 (father of the young tigress T-100 cubs) in Sikhote-Alin reserve:




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