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About methods, measurements, errors, baits and the art of debating

Shardul Offline
Regular Member
***
#16

You guys don't need to take that poster so seriously. What does he want to prove? That the tiger is smaller than the lion? Let him think whatever he wants and don't let his views affect yours. Remember, some people are not interested in a debate, but only fights.

I've seen the Carnivora forum before and this forum is several notches above that one, IMO. The level of discussion and the posters there clearly don't match the standards here. There is a reason why I chose to post here. People here are reasonable, and the level of discourse is great. No silly vs fights.

I see that the internet is filled with people who predict weights of animals that they have never even seen, and that too with such confidence that they'll fight over every last kg that they can shave off of the animal they don't like. You can make estimates based on images, yes, but it should be treated like that, just an estimate. How can you be so sure that a particular tiger is 200kg and not 220 kg? Did you see him in person? Have you ever weighed tigers? Do you know what a 220 kg tiger looks like? have you ever seen a wild tiger? The answer would be all no. Yet they continue to fight.

Now, you can rely on scientific papers, in the absence of everything else. And the words of people who remain in close association with the tiger reserves. But the fact still remains, most tigers have never been weighed. There are 2000 plus tigers in India, how many of them have been weighed? And yet people find it very difficult to believe that there could be giant tigers out there somewhere.
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India sanjay Offline
Co-owner of Wildfact
*****
#17

@Shardul is right, We don't want to bring any nonsense debate here. I have respect for all animal lovers, expert, scientific records but I don't like any people who don't know how to debate and communicate even you don't agree.

No matter who are you All I care is manners. I don't tolerate even wf members if he has no respect for others. Guate I request you not to indulge yourself in this anymore
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
Expert & Researcher
*****
#18
( This post was last modified: 09-18-2015, 11:56 AM by GuateGojira )

I think that the post was necessary, to show how biased and crazy is Waveriders. The post will stand the past of time to show what happened in those days.

However, like I say before, I will copy the part of the data itself in the Premiere League section, for matters of information.

Certainly Waveriders will continue with his attacks, but now that I have showed how coward he is, I will leave any further post to the opinions of others in base of the evidence.

If they want real and scientific information, Wildfact.com is the place. If they want silly "vs" debates and futile fights, they can stay in Carnivora with those crazy posters and they interpretations.

End of this.
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United States Pckts Offline
Bigcat Enthusiast
******
#19

(09-18-2015, 08:26 AM)Shardul Wrote: You guys don't need to take that poster so seriously. What does he want to prove? That the tiger is smaller than the lion? Let him think whatever he wants and don't let his views affect yours. Remember, some people are not interested in a debate, but only fights.

I've seen the Carnivora forum before and this forum is several notches above that one, IMO. The level of discussion and the posters there clearly don't match the standards here. There is a reason why I chose to post here. People here are reasonable, and the level of discourse is great. No silly vs fights.

I see that the internet is filled with people who predict weights of animals that they have never even seen, and that too with such confidence that they'll fight over every last kg that they can shave off of the animal they don't like. You can make estimates based on images, yes, but it should be treated like that, just an estimate. How can you be so sure that a particular tiger is 200kg and not 220 kg? Did you see him in person? Have you ever weighed tigers? Do you know what a 220 kg tiger looks like? have you ever seen a wild tiger? The answer would be all no. Yet they continue to fight.

Now, you can rely on scientific papers, in the absence of everything else. And the words of people who remain in close association with the tiger reserves. But the fact still remains, most tigers have never been weighed. There are 2000 plus tigers in India, how many of them have been weighed? And yet people find it very difficult to believe that there could be giant tigers out there somewhere.

I absolutely agree, its hard to step away in the midst of it and stop or move on though. But its a continued process of growth, that being said, great things do come from it.
It forces us to confirm claims i:e: Research.

Which leads to new questions and discoveries, and the passion one derives from these debates can be used to accomplish great things.

Guates post are one of those things, the amount of research and investigation that goes into those posts are impressive.

Getting the real information from the scientists at hand also allowed us to settle debates that had been going on for quite some time.
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
Expert & Researcher
*****
#20

It is incredible, in Carnivora (Taipan maybe) ERASED all my defense, copied by @Pckts!


*This image is copyright of its original author


So, it is obvious that they are going to support the lies of @WaveRiders at all coast. It is sad to see that posters like @Richardrli prefer to go there instead of here. Also Chui should came here to see that we are not supporting this stupid web-fights, but is Waveriders who started all this.

By the way, it seems obvious that Dr Sunquist confirmed to Wave that he measured his tigers in a straight line, but now he twist his words trying to confuse the all issue, check this:


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


It is OBVIOUS that Waveriders will NEVER accept the true, so is better to ignore him, like the 90% of the posters in Carnivora. I also advice to @Pckts to ignore them too, as they are treating you like an ignorant, which is false, THEY are the ignorant and liars. Besides, you can see that they are going to start erasing your posts, so what is the point to go there?

Also, about the email of Dr Miquelle, check this out:

*This image is copyright of its original author


This image help with the interpretation:

*This image is copyright of its original author

There is no such thing as perfectly 100% straight line in nature, like Waveriders claim that most be. Nor even the measurements between pegs were 100% perfect as many times they were made in irregular ground and that twisted somewhat the body of the animals. The claim of "perfection" of Wave is simply idiotic and show that what he wants is to disqualify the scientific records of tigers.

Dr Miquelle is explaining one thing but Waveriders twist his words and is unable to interpret it correctly, with the aid of Dr Sunquist. Check this image from The Amur Tiger Programme:

*This image is copyright of its original author


They are pressing the tape only in the part where they are running it trough the body as they had not finished the measurement (check that the body is straight), but at the end, like Dr Sunquist mentioned and like is stated in Nowell & Jackson (1996), they take the measurements in straight line.

Check this image too:

*This image is copyright of its original author


Measured in straight line. Waveriders is clearly against any information pro-tiger. This is just a resemblance of the old days in AVA and show that this type of person is not for science, but to create lies and pollution in our new forum. What a waste of time with a guy that is embarrassing himself with each post.

Finally, and I end with this, here is the correct interpretation of the paragraph of Kerley et al. (2005):

*This image is copyright of its original author


The point between "...tail" and "In the.." doesn't mean that this part of the paragraph belongs to the previous part, but is concatenated with the next paragraph, it is an obvious form to write in any professional paper.

There you go, I am not going to waste more time with Waveriders-liar. I am tired of this stupid fights with ignorant, liars and fanatics. The information has been presented, we know that @WaveRiders is going to twist it like always and in his sick mind he will try to discriminate me and the forum, as this is the form that this liar and honorableness person works.

So the last decision is from YOU, the reader of this forum.

It you want REAL data, came to Wildfact.com/forum, here you will found a place for science and to enjoy nature, with no "vs" fights.

Greetings to all.
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tigerluver Offline
Prehistoric Feline Expert
*****
Moderators
#21
( This post was last modified: 09-19-2015, 01:40 AM by tigerluver )

Though I don't there's anymore room for argument, you may want to show Dr. Miquelle your drawing (which is excellent, and I'm talking in artistic terms, you've got a ton of talent) and get it validated by him as well. Then again, I don't know how many emails they've been getting regarding this topic, and how fed up they may be.

The images of the Amurs serve as confirmation as well. The one that's been milked to show the over curves idea ignores the fact that the head is to be raised, and thus that shot may be a moment in time before such action was conducted.
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United States GrizzlyClaws Offline
Canine Expert
*****
Moderators
#22

I am a nostalgic guy, and I do miss many old posters from the AVA.

I only gave some thanks to WaveRiders for reminding me the old community, but I certainly cannot stand for him, and it is better for him to not come back anymore, because this place doesn't seem to be suitable for him.
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United States Pckts Offline
Bigcat Enthusiast
******
#23
( This post was last modified: 09-19-2015, 02:19 AM by Pckts )

Its absolutely disgusting that they removed your hard work guate, it truly shows their  attempt at controlling what the forum members see, and making sure that proof that proves them wrong is not viewed.

Its a horrible, horrible thing, censorship of information is not OK!
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
Expert & Researcher
*****
#24
( This post was last modified: 09-19-2015, 05:45 AM by GuateGojira )

More menacing words from @WaveRiders:

"And now I issue a warning for desperate blind Guate who may be crying all the time and with his wet eyes so even unable to read the words written in e-mails by Miquelle (he says that Miquelle is not actually writing STP pressed the tape at all points to the tiger body ... I cannot believe that). I wonder why in WF they are assisting to such a pathetic defence without doing nothing. Sanjay and peter what are you doing overthere? Is WF an animal forum where the base of the neck is the part closer to the skull and all the other crap that the panicked kid is writing? Come on!


So far I have just joked with Guate with some kgs and some centimetres. Now he is forcing me to show what kind of Internet criminal he is.

I will do because that is much more serious then just strongly arguing on some morphometric details. It is a question of personal integrity. I hope it will serve a lesson for all of us me included never be tempted to do anywhere something like the one I will show GuateGojira and a few of his merry brigade did.

Stay tuned as I am not expecting to come back before late Sunday."

Source: http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/10364052/1/

Are these the words of a "professional"? Obviously not, but the words of a person that is against those that don't want to think like his biased mind. Some how, I afraid that this guy could even pay someone to hack my emails or other internet accounts (like Facebook), just like the unknown hacker done with BoldChamp. Check that even Chui is trying to redirect the topic to a more logic discussion, but Waveriders insist in challenge me. It is really disturbing how fanatic he is.

I hope that somehow, the posters of Carnivora could see that this person is blind for his hate of tiger, for his hate to me and like you can see in his post, for his hate to this forum. It is incredible how far can go a person for a simple issue. I can only expect lies against me, old mistakes inflated like "sins" and that type of stuffs.
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India sanjay Offline
Co-owner of Wildfact
*****
#25
( This post was last modified: 09-19-2015, 09:58 AM by sanjay )

Hello to all,


Now things are going overhead.
I know all the guys are reading each other posts from wildfact and carnivora.

I want that this discssion should be ended here and member of each forum should contribute on the place where they like to post, but do not abuse or threaten others from other forum.

@GuateGojira, I know you are tense but you are dragging yourself deeper and deeper, with this fight and posts you are vanishing your credentials yourself. You have no doubt posted best for any forum you have joined, but unlike @peter you easily got engage in cat fight with others and this make you little far from most respectable person of all time. I insist that leave this discussion let the other say what they want to say.

@WaveRiders , I know you keep reading this forum and the other pages, but why you juts choose guate from begining of time ? Are you not mature enough to control your emotion. If you are true  and serious poster just keep posting on the place where you like and don't bring anyone names. Unfortunately in spite of your knoweldge you also never earned any creadibility due to this silly wars.

@taipan, I also know you sometime read it. As a sincere member and owner of carnivora I request you to control these activities (personnel abuses and threatening ). Its our duty to control the our members to get to a level which is not acceptable and not social by any means. I respect carnivora forum as it is your creation you have given your time , passion and skills to make it. Similar thing for wildfact. Its our duty to respect and control the level of conversation on internet if we can. So please stop these type of activities from your forum and I assure I will do best to control on my side. These type of activities always decrease the level of entire forum. My ambition is simple, don't pollute these places with this type of such conversation. We are building things for future generation not a stage for personnel fight. I requested you, because I think its only you who can stop this activity from carnivora.

@peter is different guy, mature and very knowledgeable,  I have not seen a person with level of him. Offcourse he also make mistakes but he has accepted it and most important he has never gone so deep in this type of fight.

Any further nonsense will result in closeing of this thread. Guate do not mention waveriders here just put your information and that's it, it is visitor who will decide what to believe and what not.
I am sure taipain will also make sure waverider posts what he like but do not mention you there.
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
Expert & Researcher
*****
#26

@sanjay, I agree.

I going to leave this futile fight and I am going to focus in my projects like more comparison images and the great one on the fossils section.
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
Expert & Researcher
*****
#27

Just in case that "someone" could erase my post, here is what I put in Carnivora forum (post No. 15): http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/10364052...ost8772375

@WaveRiders, here I am, facing you directly, in the same area. I am not running away, I never had.


I don’t know why you hate me, but sincerely I don’t care, but this is going too far, reaching other people and this most stop. I have received a message from a very important person (a real Scientist), that you probably know and advised me that someone of us most stop, so I agree with him.

So, here I am, talking to you sincerely, in front of your face. I know that you and I will never get to an agreement, and like I said before, I don’t care, but I am mature enough to see that this fight is not going to stop. You will kick me, and I will kick you and eventually a new AVA-like war will rise. If that conflict could stay here, it would not matter, but Peter and Sanjay have worked very hard in the forum Wild Fact and I am part of that dream and I most protect it.

I propose you this: Let’s stop this stupid fight, you have your conclusions, I have my own, you can post your ideas without insulting me and I will post mine without even mentioning you. This will end the debate between us, although you know very well that some other posters will continue this debate using our names, but we should know that are they, not us, which are in conflict.

I am not going to came here, I will consider this your place (if you want) and that will be the end, but for respect to the other posters that actually believe in the dream of Peter-Sanjay, you will not post in Wild Fact anymore too.

This is my mature proposal, I made it not for fear (because I have nothing to hide), but I do care for my people, my forum and they dream.

Tell me what do you think, it is your turn.
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India sanjay Offline
Co-owner of Wildfact
*****
#28

This is a perfect reply for any opponent I have ever read in the debates. Well done guate and you make us proud. Clap
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
Expert & Researcher
*****
#29

We reach the peace!!! That is great, and I want to invite to all the posters here to be witness of the end of this dark moment.

From this time, we can share data freely again and although I know that in some moment debate can arise, I am going to be the first in present the data WITHOUT personal adjectives. I want to imitate the great example of S. S. Pope Francisco, which helped in the future union of USA and Cuba. I have learned that harsh words only breed more hate, so let's make that change here.

Only one thing is missing, where is @peter?

Finally, "D" and "F", I hope you are happy. Happy
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India sanjay Offline
Co-owner of Wildfact
*****
#30

Thank you @GuateGojira and @WaveRiders . Internet is a boon for people who want to learn and share the knowledge so as a part of it we must respect it. Do not decrease the level of debate and discussion

From waverider -

Quote:The repeatedly fire of ICBMs between Guate and myself during the hopefully just finished first (and hopefully last) animal interforum thermonuclear war has left offences and insults on both grounds and over allies of both parts including you. Let’s forget them and leave them where they are as a testimony of the past for all of us to respect each other much more in the future. I feel Guate, peter and their party may share my thought and will hopefully very likely respect you from now onwards as much as you, and anybody else in general, deserve (which means in my opinion a lot of respect just to be clear).


I would suggest all of us from both parties to keep going supporting our own data, evidence, suggestions and interpretations on any matter without offences either naming or not naming the other part depending from when circumstances may suggest it could be a benefit of any reader to be aware that there are, or there might be, other interpretations, results or whatever on a particular matter. This to account for some room all of us may be not fully correct in our assessments and understandings of zoological matters. That should apply in any topics in my opinion and not only for morphometric measurements of extant and extinct carnivores, notoriously pretty much hot topics for most of us.


Anybody from WF feel free to copy this post of mine over there if retained useful.
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