There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(12-04-2020, 02:59 AM)Shadow Wrote: Here is other photo of this cat, which some people thought to be a tiger.
*This image is copyright of its original author
@"TinoArmando" @BA0701 Yeah, bobcats can have a lot of variability what comes to fur patterns, in this photo there seems to be a glipmse of spots/rosettes almost visible on flanks/back. Again tail is short.
Awesome stuff! Yes, Definitely this it's a bobcat.
I wonder If the fur in these animals depends as well of the weather. I mean, Like the horses, their fur in the winter changes a lot and in summer the fur burns. (depending on the fur of the animal)
(12-04-2020, 01:20 AM)TinoArmando Wrote: Very worrying situation, my friend. @BA0701,Do you know what happened with this tiger?
@"TinoArmando" no, we don't actually know. They simply stated they were packing up the trapping equipment, and there has been nothing more said. While I have my ideas on what happened, given the lack of facts, I will keep my personal opinions to myself. All we know is that several different people, in different but close locations, claimed to have seen it. Trappers responded, were in the area for a couple of days, and then they simply claimed they were packing things up. There are a couple of locations with tigers in the area, one the zoo, and the other a big cat rescue, and at the time both claimed they were not missing any cats. So, that ended up being all the info we got and it just quietly went away.
It was pretty surely a bobcat and the person who spotted the animal made just a mistake. When looking at the photo of it, tail looks to be short just like bobcats have and also no stripes on back or flanks. Only some on feet, but bobcats can have those. So when calculating 1+1 result seems to be 2 and in this case a bobcat.
What photo? I was unaware any photos were captured of it. I would certainly hope that someone, especially a police officer who should be trained in observation, wouldn't confuse a bobcat, which are not much bigger than a large house cat, with a much larger tiger. Even tiger cubs would be bigger than bobcats. Especially in an area where I would imagine folks are used to seeing bobcats. The thing that causes me to wonder if there isn't some level of truth to this, is the number of sightings, which on their FB page back when all this was going on, the local law enforcement stated, if I recall correctly, that there had been four reported sightings, right before the story disappeared. However, nothing would surprise me, people still report seeing bigfoot, so there's that. In an area I grew up in, in Florida, people would also periodically report seeing a black panther, no such creature existed then either.
And what comes to this alleged tiger sighting the person calling about it described it to be a tiger cub so it again backs up it, that misidentification.
Here a photo.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I don´t see a tiger there, when looking at this cat. But a bobcat for sure looks like that. No stripes, short tail, very strong looking hind legs in comparison with front legs.
Btw, where did that image come from? I did not see that in any of the stories I read on the matter. As for happening near by, well Mammoth Cave is in an entirely other state, so not so near by, Mammoth Cave is in Kentucky.
These images come up when making google search of this case and reading articles. I can´t open all articles which are about this case and to which these photos are connected, because there is some restriction in between USA and Europe what comes to some articles. You should be able to see more when you open up links.
Then again what comes to Mammoth Cave... only 77 miles to Nashville, Tennessee and 140 miles to Knoxville, Tennessee so from here where I´m lookin at it it´s all the same I guess, that people from Tennessee and Kentucky might disagree, but quite short distances.
12-04-2020, 03:14 AM( This post was last modified: 12-04-2020, 03:18 AM by Shadow )
Here one more article and this has a confirmed sighting too.
Quote: "KNOXVILLE, Tenn. (WZTV) — Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency officials say a tiger sighting in Knoxville was likely a case of mistaken identity.
A spokesperson from the East Tennessee region said they received a call a couple days ago in the Kingsport area saying folks saw a tiger. An officer responded and the cat, which was still on site, was a bobcat."
"Taking everything into consideration, the lack of new sightings and the conditions the first sighting was reported in, It seems highly unlikely that there is a big non-native cat on the loose," Barry Cross, with TWRA, said."
(12-04-2020, 01:20 AM)TinoArmando Wrote: Very worrying situation, my friend. @BA0701,Do you know what happened with this tiger?
@"TinoArmando" no, we don't actually know. They simply stated they were packing up the trapping equipment, and there has been nothing more said. While I have my ideas on what happened, given the lack of facts, I will keep my personal opinions to myself. All we know is that several different people, in different but close locations, claimed to have seen it. Trappers responded, were in the area for a couple of days, and then they simply claimed they were packing things up. There are a couple of locations with tigers in the area, one the zoo, and the other a big cat rescue, and at the time both claimed they were not missing any cats. So, that ended up being all the info we got and it just quietly went away.
It was pretty surely a bobcat and the person who spotted the animal made just a mistake. When looking at the photo of it, tail looks to be short just like bobcats have and also no stripes on back or flanks. Only some on feet, but bobcats can have those. So when calculating 1+1 result seems to be 2 and in this case a bobcat.
What photo? I was unaware any photos were captured of it. I would certainly hope that someone, especially a police officer who should be trained in observation, wouldn't confuse a bobcat, which are not much bigger than a large house cat, with a much larger tiger. Even tiger cubs would be bigger than bobcats. Especially in an area where I would imagine folks are used to seeing bobcats. The thing that causes me to wonder if there isn't some level of truth to this, is the number of sightings, which on their FB page back when all this was going on, the local law enforcement stated, if I recall correctly, that there had been four reported sightings, right before the story disappeared. However, nothing would surprise me, people still report seeing bigfoot, so there's that. In an area I grew up in, in Florida, people would also periodically report seeing a black panther, no such creature existed then either.
And what comes to this alleged tiger sighting the person calling about it described it to be a tiger cub so it again backs up it, that misidentification.
Here a photo.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I don´t see a tiger there, when looking at this cat. But a bobcat for sure looks like that. No stripes, short tail, very strong looking hind legs in comparison with front legs.
Btw, where did that image come from? I did not see that in any of the stories I read on the matter. As for happening near by, well Mammoth Cave is in an entirely other state, so not so near by, Mammoth Cave is in Kentucky.
These images come up when making google search of this case and reading articles. I can´t open all articles which are about this case and to which these photos are connected, because there is some restriction in between USA and Europe what comes to some articles. You should be able to see more when you open up links.
Then again what comes to Mammoth Cave... only 77 miles to Nashville, Tennessee and 140 miles to Knoxville, Tennessee so from here where I´m lookin at it it´s all the same I guess, that people from Tennessee and Kentucky might disagree, but quite short distances.
And @"tinoarmando" no problem :)
LOL, oh, there'd certainly be some disagreement between folks from both states. I have to drive to Nashville quite frequently, will be going again in a little over 2 weeks, about a 3 hour drive. But, very differently geographically speaking, one area, Knoxville, is mountainous, where Nashville is much flatter. Nashville is a big city, where Knoxville and the surrounding areas are much more rural. I am sure the differences are not unlike what you have in Finland, between folks in the city and folks in a more rural setting.
(12-04-2020, 03:14 AM)Shadow Wrote: Here one more article and this has a confirmed sighting too.
Quote: "KNOXVILLE, Tenn. (WZTV) — Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency officials say a tiger sighting in Knoxville was likely a case of mistaken identity.
A spokesperson from the East Tennessee region said they received a call a couple days ago in the Kingsport area saying folks saw a tiger. An officer responded and the cat, which was still on site, was a bobcat."
"Taking everything into consideration, the lack of new sightings and the conditions the first sighting was reported in, It seems highly unlikely that there is a big non-native cat on the loose," Barry Cross, with TWRA, said."
It's weird, they did not report this on the local news, and even deleted some of the posts about the incident from the Sheriff's Office FaceBook page, back when it happened.
(12-04-2020, 01:20 AM)TinoArmando Wrote: Very worrying situation, my friend. @BA0701,Do you know what happened with this tiger?
@"TinoArmando" no, we don't actually know. They simply stated they were packing up the trapping equipment, and there has been nothing more said. While I have my ideas on what happened, given the lack of facts, I will keep my personal opinions to myself. All we know is that several different people, in different but close locations, claimed to have seen it. Trappers responded, were in the area for a couple of days, and then they simply claimed they were packing things up. There are a couple of locations with tigers in the area, one the zoo, and the other a big cat rescue, and at the time both claimed they were not missing any cats. So, that ended up being all the info we got and it just quietly went away.
It was pretty surely a bobcat and the person who spotted the animal made just a mistake. When looking at the photo of it, tail looks to be short just like bobcats have and also no stripes on back or flanks. Only some on feet, but bobcats can have those. So when calculating 1+1 result seems to be 2 and in this case a bobcat.
What photo? I was unaware any photos were captured of it. I would certainly hope that someone, especially a police officer who should be trained in observation, wouldn't confuse a bobcat, which are not much bigger than a large house cat, with a much larger tiger. Even tiger cubs would be bigger than bobcats. Especially in an area where I would imagine folks are used to seeing bobcats. The thing that causes me to wonder if there isn't some level of truth to this, is the number of sightings, which on their FB page back when all this was going on, the local law enforcement stated, if I recall correctly, that there had been four reported sightings, right before the story disappeared. However, nothing would surprise me, people still report seeing bigfoot, so there's that. In an area I grew up in, in Florida, people would also periodically report seeing a black panther, no such creature existed then either.
And what comes to this alleged tiger sighting the person calling about it described it to be a tiger cub so it again backs up it, that misidentification.
Here a photo.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I don´t see a tiger there, when looking at this cat. But a bobcat for sure looks like that. No stripes, short tail, very strong looking hind legs in comparison with front legs.
Btw, where did that image come from? I did not see that in any of the stories I read on the matter. As for happening near by, well Mammoth Cave is in an entirely other state, so not so near by, Mammoth Cave is in Kentucky.
These images come up when making google search of this case and reading articles. I can´t open all articles which are about this case and to which these photos are connected, because there is some restriction in between USA and Europe what comes to some articles. You should be able to see more when you open up links.
Then again what comes to Mammoth Cave... only 77 miles to Nashville, Tennessee and 140 miles to Knoxville, Tennessee so from here where I´m lookin at it it´s all the same I guess, that people from Tennessee and Kentucky might disagree, but quite short distances.
And @"tinoarmando" no problem :)
LOL, oh, there'd certainly be some disagreement between folks from both states. I have to drive to Nashville quite frequently, will be going again in a little over 2 weeks, about a 3 hour drive. But, very differently geographically speaking, one area, Knoxville, is mountainous, where Nashville is much flatter. Nashville is a big city, where Knoxville and the surrounding areas are much more rural. I am sure the differences are not unlike what you have in Finland, between folks in the city and folks in a more rural setting.
Yeah, usually people living in countryside know animals better, but then again it´s no guarantee nowadays. One thing is sure. Whenever something unusual is told in the news, there come up some similar alleged observations very soon. That´s why I´m not at all surprised, that there came some other "tiger sightings". Good that in that one case in Kingsport area the cat could be identified. When it happens people start to calm down and not seeing monsters everywhere anymore.
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12-04-2020, 03:35 AM( This post was last modified: 12-04-2020, 03:37 AM by Shadow )
(12-04-2020, 03:20 AM)BA0701 Wrote:
(12-04-2020, 03:14 AM)Shadow Wrote: Here one more article and this has a confirmed sighting too.
Quote: "KNOXVILLE, Tenn. (WZTV) — Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency officials say a tiger sighting in Knoxville was likely a case of mistaken identity.
A spokesperson from the East Tennessee region said they received a call a couple days ago in the Kingsport area saying folks saw a tiger. An officer responded and the cat, which was still on site, was a bobcat."
"Taking everything into consideration, the lack of new sightings and the conditions the first sighting was reported in, It seems highly unlikely that there is a big non-native cat on the loose," Barry Cross, with TWRA, said."
It's weird, they did not report this on the local news, and even deleted some of the posts about the incident from the Sheriff's Office FaceBook page, back when it happened.
Odd. Of course there is a little chance that some privately owned tiger cub had escaped and then found very soon, in case like this it´s impossible to be 100% sure unless there is a photo from original sighting. I think, that photos which I found are from case(s) after that original news. I don´t think that any real zoo would try to cover up this kind of thing, because they would be in huge trouble if someone would be attacked. But who knows if there are a lot of these privately owned tigers, some people have no sense of responsibility.
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(12-04-2020, 01:20 AM)TinoArmando Wrote: Very worrying situation, my friend. @BA0701,Do you know what happened with this tiger?
@"TinoArmando" no, we don't actually know. They simply stated they were packing up the trapping equipment, and there has been nothing more said. While I have my ideas on what happened, given the lack of facts, I will keep my personal opinions to myself. All we know is that several different people, in different but close locations, claimed to have seen it. Trappers responded, were in the area for a couple of days, and then they simply claimed they were packing things up. There are a couple of locations with tigers in the area, one the zoo, and the other a big cat rescue, and at the time both claimed they were not missing any cats. So, that ended up being all the info we got and it just quietly went away.
It was pretty surely a bobcat and the person who spotted the animal made just a mistake. When looking at the photo of it, tail looks to be short just like bobcats have and also no stripes on back or flanks. Only some on feet, but bobcats can have those. So when calculating 1+1 result seems to be 2 and in this case a bobcat.
What photo? I was unaware any photos were captured of it. I would certainly hope that someone, especially a police officer who should be trained in observation, wouldn't confuse a bobcat, which are not much bigger than a large house cat, with a much larger tiger. Even tiger cubs would be bigger than bobcats. Especially in an area where I would imagine folks are used to seeing bobcats. The thing that causes me to wonder if there isn't some level of truth to this, is the number of sightings, which on their FB page back when all this was going on, the local law enforcement stated, if I recall correctly, that there had been four reported sightings, right before the story disappeared. However, nothing would surprise me, people still report seeing bigfoot, so there's that. In an area I grew up in, in Florida, people would also periodically report seeing a black panther, no such creature existed then either.
And what comes to this alleged tiger sighting the person calling about it described it to be a tiger cub so it again backs up it, that misidentification.
Here a photo.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I don´t see a tiger there, when looking at this cat. But a bobcat for sure looks like that. No stripes, short tail, very strong looking hind legs in comparison with front legs.
Btw, where did that image come from? I did not see that in any of the stories I read on the matter. As for happening near by, well Mammoth Cave is in an entirely other state, so not so near by, Mammoth Cave is in Kentucky.
These images come up when making google search of this case and reading articles. I can´t open all articles which are about this case and to which these photos are connected, because there is some restriction in between USA and Europe what comes to some articles. You should be able to see more when you open up links.
Then again what comes to Mammoth Cave... only 77 miles to Nashville, Tennessee and 140 miles to Knoxville, Tennessee so from here where I´m lookin at it it´s all the same I guess, that people from Tennessee and Kentucky might disagree, but quite short distances.
And @"tinoarmando" no problem :)
LOL, oh, there'd certainly be some disagreement between folks from both states. I have to drive to Nashville quite frequently, will be going again in a little over 2 weeks, about a 3 hour drive. But, very differently geographically speaking, one area, Knoxville, is mountainous, where Nashville is much flatter. Nashville is a big city, where Knoxville and the surrounding areas are much more rural. I am sure the differences are not unlike what you have in Finland, between folks in the city and folks in a more rural setting.
Yeah, usually people living in countryside know animals better, but then again it´s no guarantee nowadays. One thing is sure. Whenever something unusual is told in the news, there come up some similar alleged observations very soon. That´s why I´m not at all surprised, that there came some other "tiger sightings". Good that in that one case in Kingsport area the cat could be identified. When it happens people start to calm down and not seeing monsters everywhere anymore.
Exactly my friend. What is so weird, is when the incident first happened, they were having live news conferences every day, to explain what was happening. Then on the last day, the day they packed up their traps, they essentially said no new sightings, and that they were packing it up. Following that news conference, they said they would not be answering any further questions, unless new information was discovered. Not one time, until your posts today, was any comment about bobcats mentioned. That is a big deal, because people from all over the world come here to hike in that park, so a loose tiger would be a very big deal. Bobcats are seen almost daily, so if they would have said that back when all of this took place, then it would have gone a long way towards making people more comfortable walking in the park again. At the very least, in light of this information, it was certainly not handled well by the local authorities. Nobody would be afraid of a bobcat, but I am sure some folks were hesitant to go hiking the Appalachian Trail, with word of a loose tiger in the area circulating.
12-04-2020, 03:39 AM( This post was last modified: 12-04-2020, 03:40 AM by BA0701 )
(12-04-2020, 03:35 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(12-04-2020, 03:20 AM)BA0701 Wrote:
(12-04-2020, 03:14 AM)Shadow Wrote: Here one more article and this has a confirmed sighting too.
Quote: "KNOXVILLE, Tenn. (WZTV) — Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency officials say a tiger sighting in Knoxville was likely a case of mistaken identity.
A spokesperson from the East Tennessee region said they received a call a couple days ago in the Kingsport area saying folks saw a tiger. An officer responded and the cat, which was still on site, was a bobcat."
"Taking everything into consideration, the lack of new sightings and the conditions the first sighting was reported in, It seems highly unlikely that there is a big non-native cat on the loose," Barry Cross, with TWRA, said."
It's weird, they did not report this on the local news, and even deleted some of the posts about the incident from the Sheriff's Office FaceBook page, back when it happened.
Odd. Of course there is a little chance that some privately owned tiger cub had escaped and then found very soon, in case like this it´s impossible to be 100% sure unless there is a photo from original sighting. I think, that photos which I found are from case(s) after that original news. I don´t think that any real zoo would try to cover up this kind of thing, because they would be in huge trouble if someone would be attacked. But who knows if there are a lot of these privately owned tigers, some people have no sense of responsibility.
Given how it was handled, that is exactly what I figured had happened. I figured it was found, and they brushed it under the rug, in order to minimize liability, and that was based entirely on what was said, and the way they closed it all out of the blue. I now I read what you posted, and am more confused than I was when it was happening.
(12-04-2020, 03:14 AM)Shadow Wrote: Here one more article and this has a confirmed sighting too.
Quote: "KNOXVILLE, Tenn. (WZTV) — Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency officials say a tiger sighting in Knoxville was likely a case of mistaken identity.
A spokesperson from the East Tennessee region said they received a call a couple days ago in the Kingsport area saying folks saw a tiger. An officer responded and the cat, which was still on site, was a bobcat."
"Taking everything into consideration, the lack of new sightings and the conditions the first sighting was reported in, It seems highly unlikely that there is a big non-native cat on the loose," Barry Cross, with TWRA, said."
It's weird, they did not report this on the local news, and even deleted some of the posts about the incident from the Sheriff's Office FaceBook page, back when it happened.
Odd. Of course there is a little chance that some privately owned tiger cub had escaped and then found very soon, in case like this it´s impossible to be 100% sure unless there is a photo from original sighting. I think, that photos which I found are from case(s) after that original news. I don´t think that any real zoo would try to cover up this kind of thing, because they would be in huge trouble if someone would be attacked. But who knows if there are a lot of these privately owned tigers, some people have no sense of responsibility.
Given how it was handled, that is exactly what I figured had happened. I figured it was found, and they brushed it under the rug, in order to minimize liability, and that was based entirely on what was said, and the way they closed it all out of the blue. I now I read what you posted, and am more confused than I was when it was happening.
Yeah. It´s also possible, that animal experts have said all the time to Sheriff Office (as they say in articles I posted), that it was a bobcat and staff there (Sheriff Office) are too embarrassed to discuss about it more since it was a deputy(?) making that first claim following then others. It can be that simple really, they are people too and sometimes embarrassment can make people act in odd ways. And I guess, that Sheriff Office creating unnecessary panic isn´t exactly what they would like to advertise
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(12-04-2020, 03:14 AM)Shadow Wrote: Here one more article and this has a confirmed sighting too.
Quote: "KNOXVILLE, Tenn. (WZTV) — Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency officials say a tiger sighting in Knoxville was likely a case of mistaken identity.
A spokesperson from the East Tennessee region said they received a call a couple days ago in the Kingsport area saying folks saw a tiger. An officer responded and the cat, which was still on site, was a bobcat."
"Taking everything into consideration, the lack of new sightings and the conditions the first sighting was reported in, It seems highly unlikely that there is a big non-native cat on the loose," Barry Cross, with TWRA, said."
It's weird, they did not report this on the local news, and even deleted some of the posts about the incident from the Sheriff's Office FaceBook page, back when it happened.
Odd. Of course there is a little chance that some privately owned tiger cub had escaped and then found very soon, in case like this it´s impossible to be 100% sure unless there is a photo from original sighting. I think, that photos which I found are from case(s) after that original news. I don´t think that any real zoo would try to cover up this kind of thing, because they would be in huge trouble if someone would be attacked. But who knows if there are a lot of these privately owned tigers, some people have no sense of responsibility.
Given how it was handled, that is exactly what I figured had happened. I figured it was found, and they brushed it under the rug, in order to minimize liability, and that was based entirely on what was said, and the way they closed it all out of the blue. I now I read what you posted, and am more confused than I was when it was happening.
Yeah. It´s also possible, that animal experts have said all the time to Sheriff Office (as they say in articles I posted), that it was a bobcat and staff there (Sheriff Office) are too embarrassed to discuss about it more since it was a deputy(?) making that first claim following then others. It can be that simple really, they are people too and sometimes embarrassment can make people act in odd ways. And I guess, that Sheriff Office creating unnecessary panic isn´t exactly what they would like to advertise
Another, very real, possibility. So long as no cats, or any people were hurt, then it had a positive outcome. As you mentioned, depending on a person's origins, a bobcat may well look like a tiger. I know for certain that I have been in the woods in Florida, with some folks from the city (Miami), when we spotted some coyotes, and they immediately believed they were looking at a pack of wolves lol. We had to explain to them, that a) we don't have wolves in Florida, and b) wolves are much larger than the little coyotes we just saw.
(12-04-2020, 03:14 AM)Shadow Wrote: Here one more article and this has a confirmed sighting too.
Quote: "KNOXVILLE, Tenn. (WZTV) — Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency officials say a tiger sighting in Knoxville was likely a case of mistaken identity.
A spokesperson from the East Tennessee region said they received a call a couple days ago in the Kingsport area saying folks saw a tiger. An officer responded and the cat, which was still on site, was a bobcat."
"Taking everything into consideration, the lack of new sightings and the conditions the first sighting was reported in, It seems highly unlikely that there is a big non-native cat on the loose," Barry Cross, with TWRA, said."
It's weird, they did not report this on the local news, and even deleted some of the posts about the incident from the Sheriff's Office FaceBook page, back when it happened.
Odd. Of course there is a little chance that some privately owned tiger cub had escaped and then found very soon, in case like this it´s impossible to be 100% sure unless there is a photo from original sighting. I think, that photos which I found are from case(s) after that original news. I don´t think that any real zoo would try to cover up this kind of thing, because they would be in huge trouble if someone would be attacked. But who knows if there are a lot of these privately owned tigers, some people have no sense of responsibility.
Given how it was handled, that is exactly what I figured had happened. I figured it was found, and they brushed it under the rug, in order to minimize liability, and that was based entirely on what was said, and the way they closed it all out of the blue. I now I read what you posted, and am more confused than I was when it was happening.
Yeah. It´s also possible, that animal experts have said all the time to Sheriff Office (as they say in articles I posted), that it was a bobcat and staff there (Sheriff Office) are too embarrassed to discuss about it more since it was a deputy(?) making that first claim following then others. It can be that simple really, they are people too and sometimes embarrassment can make people act in odd ways. And I guess, that Sheriff Office creating unnecessary panic isn´t exactly what they would like to advertise
Another, very real, possibility. So long as no cats, or any people were hurt, then it had a positive outcome. As you mentioned, depending on a person's origins, a bobcat may well look like a tiger. I know for certain that I have been in the woods in Florida, with some folks from the city (Miami), when we spotted some coyotes, and they immediately believed they were looking at a pack of wolves lol. We had to explain to them, that a) we don't have wolves in Florida, and b) wolves are much larger than the little coyotes we just saw.
Yeah, these things happen. One person which I know was on site of car hitting an animal and he was sure that it was a wolverine lying dead there, while it was a raccoon dog. And while wolverines can be spotted nowadays occasionally in large parts of Finland it happened in area, that pretty much 0% possibility :) And this guy had time to look at that animal lying dead there all he wanted. It wasn´t just some short glimpse in dark.
Misidentifications are so easy to make even by experienced people especially in surprising and quick situations.
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A tiger is loose in Tennessee
I guess, that people from Tennessee and Kentucky might disagree, but quite short distances. 
