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Persian Leopard (Panthera pardus saxicolor)

United States Pckts Offline
Bigcat Enthusiast
******

(05-14-2019, 09:37 PM)Styx38 Wrote:
(05-13-2019, 10:52 PM)Pckts Wrote: @Styx38 

Let's start right here...

"4) "Persian leopards are apex predators with high altitude in their favor yet they haven't produced a Leopard over 100kg."

Nice contradiction:

(12-22-2015, 02:17 AM)Pckts Wrote: Wrote:Even though I am skeptical of it, it was confirmed by the vet.
The largest verified leopard weight was the 115kg mark set by a persian leopard missing one paw.

Do you know what's changed in those 3 years?
I've now been to both Africa and India now, I've befriended and spoken with more wildlife experts than in any time prior to my life and I've been to more Sanctuaries and Zoos then at any point prior in my life.
I've seen and spoken to far to many people and things to keep the same perspective I had 3.5 years ago, if you haven't then that's on you.
So needless to say, a weight I was already skeptical on 3.5 years ago has only become more far fetched. Considering I have now seen many Persian weights, spoken with field experts and hunting records to compare, I can say with more confidence now then ever that the weight of 115kg is not valid. A Leopard with a missing paw and no extraordinary dimensions isn't a record Persian Leopard, the largest you have is 91kg on baited cats, this is also why Panthera group doesn't recognize it as valid nor will most.
In regards to the posts on Sambar, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at?
Leopards prey on Adult Sambar, simple as that. 
No Leopard sub species preys on 100kg animals all the time, it's why their mean body weight on prey is between 15-60kg no matter the sub species. 
In Ranthambore, one of the highest density of Tigers in India, Leopards make Sambar kills regardless of Tigers being ever present and abundant.
 
"264
Leopard
Jan 31, 2018
PM
4,5
Tazin
A leopard was sighted when it killed a sambar deer."

https://www.ranthambhoreguides.com/animal-movement/index?page=14&sort=note



So the idea that the Leopards don't kill large prey in the presence of another Predator is wrong, they are very location dependent, even treeing prey is dependent on location, obviously the location must have trees close by or else they must eat in a bush they drag their prey to. 


*This image is copyright of its original author

They just prefer prey smaller than themselves if possible, but again it's dependent on the Cat it self.
We have 20+ pages of Leopards make all kinds of kills, with obvious leopards showing distinct killing techniques depending on their location and individual. You see this in Leopards killing Warthog by Chest bite, an obvious adaption to avoid their dangerous tusks and their thick necks.  This technique isn't something any Leopard can do, it's a skill required of a larger individual.
Hence why we usually see it in males, I don't recall a single female killing a Large Warthog that way.
 




Lastly, in regards to the correlation of Large Carnivores present to Leopards...

"Tanzania’s Renowned Maswa North Game Reserve – Maswa North is considered by many to be one of the African continents leading prime game hunting areas. This hunting area can be reached by private air charter or by flying commercial to Mwanza and driving approximately 4 hours to camp. Maswa’s 751 square kilometers is located along the southwestern boundary of the Serengeti National Park. More than 1.5 million Wildebeest migrate from the Serengeti National Park through Maswa North Game Reserve in January and February feeding on the new growth of grasses after the short rains of November and December. The Southern part of Maswa forms the Serengeti short grass plains. Bottom line, the proximity of Maswa to the Serengeti National Park: The climate is moderate here with cold nights in July, August and early September. During the day temperatures will reach upwards of 80 degrees F. Game is plentiful and Maswa offers exceptional trophy quality for Cape Buffalo with bulls between 45 and 48 inches harvested annually; and where you have plenty of Buffalo you will find good numbers of black manned Lions. In addition you will see large Leopards and other splendid trophies that include Robert’s Gazelle, Roan, Cokes Hartebeest, Grant’s Gazelle, Thompson’s Gazelle, East African Impala, Zebra, Defassa Waterbuck, Warthog, Topi, Wildebeest, Baboon, Bushbuck, Eland, Bohor Reedbuck, Klipspringer, Steinbuck, Hyena, Jackal and Ostrich."

We know what Black Maned Lions mean and if those are the healthiest of Male Lions and you find large Leopards in the same location, that only means that they both coexist and excel. 

Proof of this yet again 
"Rungwa East & Rungwa Lunda – Rungwa Game Reserve and Lunda Game Controlled Area of Tanzania covers over 300,000 acres of prime hunting area in the Rungwa Game Reserve and the Lunda Game Controlled Area, sharing over 100 kilometers of common boundary with the Ruaha National park. This area is arguably one of the best hunting areas in Tanzania. It is a known fact that this area holds some of the densest Lion populations in Tanzania as well as countless herds of Cape Buffalo. Numerous in numbers, these areas also abound in excellent trophy quality Leopard, Eland, Sable, Antelope, Roan Antelope, Lichtenstein’s Hartebeest, Zebra, Greater Kudu, Lesser Kudu, Reedbuck, Bushbuck, Oribi, Klipspringer, Dik Dik, Bushpig, Warthog, Hyena, Hippo and Crocodile. There is also a large concentration of elephant in this area, with a number of 50+ pound bulls seen on a regular basis."

http://weshixon.com/trip/tanzania-africa/

As we can see, Leopards from all over Africa have scored higher, weighed more or equal and done so in the presence of Larger Carnivores.


Character Release simply means "character release The principle that a species will be able to exploit a greater range of habitats if it occurs in an environment from which a similar species with which it normally occurs is absent. Compare character displacement. "character release." A Dictionary of Ecology. . "character release."

Which you see in Sri Lankan Leopards for instance, not with size but with density. Sri Lanka is one of the most densely populated Leopard territories on earth, but we're still only speaking on 250 specimens compared to 1000s throughout C. and E. Africa, and this is why their size shows no significant gain from verified weights.

"Restricted dispersal on islands leads to higher population densities, thus to a decrease in body size (Wasserzug et al., 1979) "

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.461.7130&rep=rep1&type=pdf


Insular Dwarfism generally refers to larger animals while Insular Gigantism generally refers to smaller seed eating animals, Leopards and other carnivores generally are effected by prey bio mass. 

"Among mammals, carnivores dominate much of the literature on morphological relationships. Unsurprisingly, prey size is generally correlated with carnivore body size (Gittleman, 1985), so partitioning food by size may be expected. Larger predators tend to take a larger range of sizes of prey, generally because the upper size limit increases (Schoener, 1969; Wilson, 1975; Gittleman, 1985). In addition, substantial data show aggressive interference among carnivores, associated with competition for prey (discussion in Van Valkenburgh, 1984; Van Valkenburgh & Hertel, 1993). Also, carnivores often have wide geographical ranges, thus interacting with many different sets of species, and they often have pronounced geographical size variation, which has been extensively studied. These lines of research have focused mammalian character displacement research on carnivores, despite well-known obstacles to field research on this group. For two Chilean foxes (Dusicyon culpaeus and D. griseus), Fuentes & Jaksic (1979) perceived character displacement as divergence in body length with increasing latitude, associated with a concomitant increase in habitat overlap. Jimenez (1993) rejected this interpretation, arguing that both species adhered to Bergmann’s rule, increasing in size with increasing latitude.
Rosenzweig (1968), McNab (1971), and Ralls & Harvey (1985) disagreed about character displacement in North American weasels. The former two studies both used head plus body length to characterize size. Rosenzweig (1968), studying males and females of the Stoat Mustela erminea separately, plus a mixed sample, saw latitude and mean annual temperature as largely governing size variation and assigned a minimal role to competition with congeners or to size of available prey. McNab (1971), on the other hand, felt that size of available prey plus character displacement generated by competition with other weasels dominated size variation in the Stoat. He argued similarly for size variation in South American felids and suggested that, in general, where Bergmannian size clines exist at all, they are likely to be a consequence of interspecific competition rather than a response to climatic gradients. Using condylobasal skull length as a size measurement, Ralls & Harvey (1985) found no evidence for character displacement among North American weasels. Rather, for the Stoat, they found a latitudinal size cline, while no correlates were found for size variation in M. frenata or M. nivalis."



There are also examples in that study that you can use to back your claim as well

As you can see, these Rules are very up in the air, we can find examples that prove or disprove them and the scientific community is still split, hence why we can circle back over and over again.
But when you cut out the what ifs and "Rules" and just go off of Measurements and weights you don't see a larger cat just a different one.


All that being said, I once again believe Persians to be the Largest Sub Species and yet they haven't produced a Verified 100kg'er just yet and all the hunting sights I see even with baited cats have still not produced 100kg Leopard either, even with more impressive Skull Measurements and to me that says it all.


I guess I was wrong on the jaguar part.

Anyway, what was the age and sex of the Sambar? How often do they kill adult Sambar, specifically stags or bulls in an area with Tigers or Lions as sympatric carnivores?

Here is the place where Tigers were temporarily extirpated at the time:


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Leopards killed some Sambar stags and lots of hinds, and a few fawns or subadults.



Here is the place where is there no other serious hypercarnivore other than the leopard (Yala National Park):







*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author




As can be seen from this study, three sambar stags were killed by leopards.




The main point is that the more opportunities the Leopard has with large prey(without interference from a bigger carnivore) the more it will kill, and there will be larger individuals.


If you are in doubt of 100 kg leopards, wasn't there a Leopard from the Tirumala hill range in Southern part of India by the name of Balaji. He was 108kg when caught in the wild.

You know what he had in common with Persian/Sri Lankan/ Central African Leopards?

No Tigers or Lions within his range:

Quote:Till now, Tiger [i]Panthera tigris[/i] has not been reported from this site but Leopard [i]Panthera pardus[/i] is quite common, along with the Wild Dog or Dhole Cuon alpinus. Other predators include Hyena Hyaena hyaena, Golden Jackal [i]Canis aureus[/i], Indian Fox Vulpes [i]bengalensis[/i], Small Indian Civet Viverricula indica and Jungle Cat Felis [i]chaus[/i]

http://datazone.birdlife.org/site/factsheet/sri-venkateswara-wildlife-sanctuary-and-national-park-iba-india


As you mentioned that prey size is correlated with carnivore size, there will be more Leopards above 70 or 80 kg in a place where there are no carnivores than in the plains of Africa or the Tiger dominated jungles of India and Southeast Asia, due to a higher frequency of killing and getting all its nutrition from larger prey.

The averages may be similar, but there will be more robust individuals.

And my main point is there are far more Sambar in India than Sri Lanka and it's already been shown that Leopard take down adult Sambar, but again, Indian Leopards have far less small to midsize prey options compared to their African counterparts and thus they are smaller.
But so are Sri Lankan Leopards as well, even without the presence of Lions and one of the densest Leopard populations on earth. 
Some of the largest Leopards on the other hand have all come from densely Lion populated locations, Leopards with scores higher than Congolese Leopards or Persians.


"Tirumala hill range in Southern part of India by the name of Balaji. He was 108kg when caught in the wild."
He is anything but confirmed, caught at 2 years old with a claimed weight of 108kg then 139kg when he was in the Zoological park yet Guiness, nor any scientific community has recognized him. 
In fact the only story on him is one article and nothing else, from the Hindu no less. I'd wager it's fake. 
This image is him after not eating for 4 days, he's obviously an obese cat.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author




Obviously since they give no measurements, it's no recognized in any scientific journal or Guinness, nor is there a record of the capture, location or images, it's anything but verified. 

But in regards to largest Indian Leopards

"The largest individual appears to have been a male man-eater that was shot in the Dhadhol area of Bilaspur district, Himachal Pradesh, in 2016. It reportedly measured 8 ft 7 in (262 cm) from head to tail, 34 in (86 cm) at the shoulder, and weighed 71 kg (157 lb).[14][15]"


and you see here that even these Indian's were larger than their Sri Lankan Cousins

*This image is copyright of its original author

Even while living in Tiger dominated habitats. 


Just in case you were wondering how Leopards do with in Lion Territory, let's look at one of the  arguably Largest Leopard alive today, the Anderson male. 
While the Anderson male was resident in the north-central reaches of the Sabi Sands at a time when the Camp Pan male was holding territory in SE Londolozi, the two males were separated by not only distance but also by the buffer of other big males in between. The only time they could possibly have met up was when the Camp Pan male finally got pushed out of his territory by a combination of the Piva and Inyathini males and became nomadic. Having said this, once evicted the Camp Pan male did seem to confine most of his movements to the areas bordering the Sand River, skulking through the reedbeds and trying to remain as unobtrusive as possible. I doubt whether he moved far enough north that he would have encountered the Anderson male.

"While the Anderson male was resident in the north-central reaches of the Sabi Sands at a time when the Camp Pan male was holding territory in SE Londolozi, the two males were separated by not only distance but also by the buffer of other big males in between. The only time they could possibly have met up was when the Camp Pan male finally got pushed out of his territory by a combination of the Piva and Inyathini males and became nomadic. Having said this, once evicted the Camp Pan male did seem to confine most of his movements to the areas bordering the Sand River, skulking through the reedbeds and trying to remain as unobtrusive as possible. I doubt whether he moved far enough north that he would have encountered the Anderson male."

proof of their power

"The Camp Pan male was a big leopard. Fact. He was immensely powerful, and I personally saw him with the hoisted carcasses of kudus, young wildebeest and juvenile zebras. Not small animals to carry up into the trees. His tracks were what really set him apart, however, and I doubt I will ever again see a leopard with feet that big. His “unmistakeable” tracks were, in fact, mistaken for those of a lioness on more than one occasion."

"first things the Anderson male did when establishing territory on Londolozi was to hoist the carcass of a young giraffe. Yes, a giraffe! Giraffe foals are born weighing around 100kg, and I’m here to tell you that the Anderson male had not eaten much of the kill before carrying it into the branches of a long-tailed cassia. It was a truly outrageous display of strength."
https://blog.londolozi.com/2015/09/23/are-these-the-biggest-leopards-youve-ever-seen/

As you can see, with a huge healthy lion population, not only do we still see arguably the largest Leopards in Africa, we also see a large healthy population of Male Leopards as well. On top of that, you see these big males not only killing 100kg animals but hoisting them into trees if need be and that's not including the feeding they do on the ones that are too large to hoist. 



Last is this...
"As you mentioned that prey size is correlated with carnivore size, there will be more Leopards above 70 or 80 kg in a place where there are no carnivores than in the plains of Africa or the Tiger dominated jungles of India and Southeast Asia, due to a higher frequency of killing and getting all its nutrition from larger prey"

Again, Lion or Tiger dominated Reserves are also Ungulate dominated reserves, Leopards in C. Africa, S. Africa, E. Africa and GIR are all huge healthy cats, Leopards in Kabini, Kanha, Pench, Panna or Umred are all huge as well, showing once again that even in Lion or Tiger dominated areas, Leopards thrive and produce large cats.
Reply




Messages In This Thread
RE: Persian Leopard - sanjay - 03-10-2015, 12:23 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - sanjay - 03-10-2015, 12:26 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Jubatus - 06-05-2015, 04:18 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Jubatus - 06-05-2015, 04:25 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Jubatus - 06-05-2015, 04:28 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Jubatus - 06-05-2015, 04:33 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Jubatus - 06-05-2015, 04:38 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Jubatus - 06-05-2015, 04:43 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - stoja9 - 06-05-2015, 08:45 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - GuateGojira - 06-05-2015, 09:29 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Jubatus - 06-05-2015, 07:43 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - GuateGojira - 06-06-2015, 08:36 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - GuateGojira - 06-06-2015, 10:44 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Jubatus - 06-06-2015, 03:45 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Brehm - 06-17-2015, 09:27 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Tshokwane - 06-17-2015, 06:07 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Pckts - 06-17-2015, 09:52 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Pantherinae - 06-17-2015, 11:57 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Pckts - 06-18-2015, 02:07 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Jubatus - 06-25-2015, 05:10 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Pckts - 06-25-2015, 07:51 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Jubatus - 06-25-2015, 05:15 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Jubatus - 06-25-2015, 05:41 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Jubatus - 06-25-2015, 08:49 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Pckts - 06-25-2015, 09:19 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Pckts - 06-25-2015, 09:47 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Jubatus - 06-25-2015, 10:42 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Jubatus - 06-26-2015, 01:08 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Pckts - 06-26-2015, 01:13 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Pckts - 06-26-2015, 01:26 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Pckts - 06-26-2015, 01:35 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Pckts - 06-26-2015, 09:08 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - GuateGojira - 06-27-2015, 11:34 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Pckts - 06-27-2015, 06:55 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - GuateGojira - 06-27-2015, 10:51 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - GuateGojira - 06-27-2015, 11:35 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - tigerluver - 06-28-2015, 01:39 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - GuateGojira - 06-28-2015, 09:34 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Pckts - 06-29-2015, 11:30 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Pantherinae - 06-30-2015, 12:39 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Richardrli - 06-30-2015, 08:15 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Pckts - 06-30-2015, 09:10 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - tigerluver - 06-30-2015, 09:25 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - GuateGojira - 06-30-2015, 09:51 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Tshokwane - 06-30-2015, 05:07 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - GuateGojira - 07-03-2015, 08:46 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - tigerluver - 07-03-2015, 11:43 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - GuateGojira - 07-04-2015, 09:30 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Pckts - 07-05-2015, 11:32 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - GuateGojira - 08-20-2015, 09:25 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Jubatus - 11-18-2015, 01:52 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Jubatus - 11-18-2015, 02:03 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Jubatus - 11-18-2015, 02:14 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Jubatus - 11-24-2015, 04:04 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Sully - 12-22-2015, 12:21 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Pckts - 12-22-2015, 12:47 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Dr Panthera - 12-24-2015, 12:01 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Sully - 12-24-2015, 12:55 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - parvez - 01-26-2016, 09:41 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Ngala - 05-02-2016, 02:15 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Roflcopters - 05-02-2016, 05:01 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Sully - 05-02-2016, 05:30 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Sully - 05-02-2016, 05:32 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Sully - 05-02-2016, 05:35 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Ngala - 06-04-2016, 12:48 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Ngala - 06-13-2016, 11:51 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Ngala - 07-05-2016, 10:17 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Ngala - 07-22-2016, 07:54 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Ngala - 08-04-2016, 01:44 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - sanjay - 08-04-2016, 11:04 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Ngala - 08-16-2016, 12:58 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Ngala - 09-05-2016, 03:54 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Ngala - 10-08-2016, 12:40 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Ngala - 10-29-2016, 03:50 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - parvez - 10-29-2016, 04:27 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - parvez - 10-30-2016, 07:35 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - parvez - 11-02-2016, 09:25 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Tshokwane - 11-02-2016, 09:40 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - parvez - 11-02-2016, 09:45 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Ngala - 11-02-2016, 11:03 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - parvez - 11-03-2016, 07:32 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - peter - 11-03-2016, 04:03 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - parvez - 11-03-2016, 04:37 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Tshokwane - 11-03-2016, 05:05 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - parvez - 11-03-2016, 07:26 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Pckts - 11-03-2016, 07:39 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - tigerluver - 11-03-2016, 08:57 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - Pckts - 11-03-2016, 09:01 AM
RE: Persian Leopard - parvez - 11-03-2016, 05:47 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Ngala - 11-03-2016, 05:54 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - parvez - 11-03-2016, 06:02 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Ngala - 11-03-2016, 06:27 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - parvez - 11-03-2016, 06:12 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Tshokwane - 11-03-2016, 06:19 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - parvez - 11-03-2016, 06:35 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - parvez - 11-03-2016, 06:54 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Ngala - 11-19-2016, 10:40 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Ngala - 11-19-2016, 10:42 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Ngala - 11-28-2016, 04:15 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Ngala - 12-06-2016, 02:18 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Ngala - 12-06-2016, 02:21 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Pckts - 12-06-2016, 09:51 PM
RE: Persian Leopard - Ngala - 12-07-2016, 12:52 AM
RE: Persian Leopard (Panthera pardus saxicolor) - Pckts - 05-14-2019, 10:53 PM



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