ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

[peter]

(02-26-2019, 12:17 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(02-12-2019, 05:54 AM)Wolverine Wrote: Guate wrote: " there is no case of dholes attacking (actually attacking) adult tigers during more than 50 years of scientific study"

O, yes we have a scientific report from 1963 from the respectful Scientific Survey of India, Kanha NP, tiger attacked and injured by dholes:

Mr Khajuria did not even saw the event, so how this could be "evidence" of a real attack? This is crazy, we have testimonies of real scientists that had work (and are still wroking) in the field and you stay with old hearsays????

Also this is not an study or a report that we can actually describe as "scientific". In fact, just like any moder tiger investigator/expert, there is an agreements that the scientific studies started with Dr Schaller and since the publication of his book in 1967 until today 2019 (about 52 years), there is not a case described like those in the old litterature. Or the tiger before Schaller was a completelly diferent animal (like @peter suggested), or those stories were just "single and very rare events" or just "fisher tales"?

INTERACTING AT A PUBLIC FORUM

A month ago or so, the tiger thread developed into a war zone. The not-even-close-to-a-debate attempt to discuss tigers and dholes resulted in animosity, a bad climate and a ban. Apart from that, quite a few posts were deleted.

A few weeks ago, order was restored. In the period I was out, however, the tiger thread again turned into a battlefield. Apart from the usual results (animosity and all the rest of it), it, this time, resulted in insult (referring to the dismissal of Kailash Sankhala and two very good posters). Furthermore, the exchange of good info came to a halt.  

Although some seem to assume the war was a result of another attempt to discuss tigers and dholes, it wasn't. It was a new demonstration of the inability to get to a sound discussion on something of interest. As it happened in a well-viewed and interesting thread on a public forum in 2019, it was very disheartening. 

As a result of the war and the results, the owners and mods decided for a discussion on the future of the forum. The outcome is that changes will be made. A new section will be created. In this section, members interested in posting and/or joining a discussion need permission from those moderating the new section. In this way, most problems seen in most forums can be avoided.

Does this mean that those involved in the war in this thread will get away with it? Not quite.

GUATE

The climate changed when you responded to my long post on Kailash Sankhala. Shadow asked me to offer a bit more on him in the dhole thread and I obliged. When he was in Kanha in the early seventies of the last century, Sankhala saw big cats leave the scene when dholes appeared. Although he referred to the stories described by Kenneth Anderson in southern India, Sankhala didn't see anything confirming the observations of Anderson.

It's a fact you used that post to start a crusade on Sankhala. First, you, more than once, underlined he was not a biologist. True, but that could have been a result of specific conditions and not, as you indirectly suggested, a result of a lack of quality. In the western hemisphere, background and status still are important. This means that those raised in difficult conditions will get less opportunities than those born and raised in affluent districts. I can tell you all about that. Based on what I read, things in India do not seem very different in this respect. In spite of the odds, Sankhala was able to develop himself. Quite an achievement, I think.    

Individuals able to beat the odds often have something special. Could be passion, dedication, determination or drive. Most of them are able to deal with problems. There's no doubt that Sankhala was operating in the department of passion, determination and drive. Based on what I read, I'd say he achieved more than most. In the day of Sankhala, conservation was a non-issue. Hunting was everywhere and tigers were on their way out. I'm not saying Sankhala made a difference, but there's no question he contributed to a different attitude in India. In this respect, he's as important as those who top your list, if not more so.

The problem with humans is they have many 'faces'. Some of these inspire, whereas others have a less positive influence. Not seldom, individuals combine both. Personality still is an enigma. Furthermore, one has to remember that not everything is known. It may seem that way, but it often isn't. This means one has to be very careful in the department of opinions, but those who prefer to focus on one part of a personality might disagree with this conclusion. 

Anyhow. It could be, as you suggested, that some of Sankhala's views resulted in a somewhat narrow view in some departments. Maybe his views contributed to a kind of nationalism in some respects, but others would say he contributed to the development of a new awareness in India. Maybe this was more important in a period in which India was trying to find its way in a world in which value was largely expressed in numbers and culture had been sidelined.      

Sankhala was heavily involved in Project Tiger, which was started in 1973. Not a second too soon, many think. In the next decades, Indian biologists and conservationists started to become known. Documents and books were published. New tiger reserves were added all the time. Did all of this had an effect? I think so. Today, in spite of the size of its population, conservation is important in India. In spite of the countless conflicts between humans and wild animals, India still has wild animals. Is this remarkable? I think so. If you say 'wolf' in The Netherlands, chances are a debate will erupt that will never be concluded. In India, many millions live close to animals that pose a very real danger.  

Those who top your list were raised in a different time. I'm not saying life was easy, but it was different from the fifties and sixties, when people like Sankhala encountered a lot of opposition. He had many enemies. And I mean many. His collegues today, for very good reasons, earned a lot of respect from their peers, but it has to be remembered that Sankhala, in one way or another, paved the way.

I know Sankhala was controversial, but what about his collegues today? Not a few of them have been involved in statements that would raise quite a few questions. Mistakes were made. Even those with lots of experience know mistakes can never be avoided. In some cases, animals or humans will perish as a result. Is this a reason to get involved in judgements, crusades and some kind of fundamentalism? I think not. What do we really know? If you want to do opinions, my advice is to get started with respect. Biologists, zoologists, rangers and many others are the ones who put the natural world and those living on the agenda. One of the results is that India still has wild tigers. An achievement that compares to what Sankhala did.  

You're here from the start. Your contributions are appreciated by many. This also means you have to know about responsability and consequences. If you, in a post, directly or indirectly, undermine, dismiss or sideline a well-known and respected biologist, a member of the forum, a mod or one of the owners (referring to posts 2,123 and 2,124), it will have consequences. It's a fact that the turmoil you created had devastating results. I'm not only referring to the dismissal of Sankhala and two well-informed and very productive members (Wolverine and Shadow). It also is a fact you, like many with a great education, not seldom have been involved in dismissals. Like quite a few modern biologists, you more or less distrust anything you didn't see yourself. This means that information collected by able and experienced woodsmen, amateur naturalists, hunters and many others surviving in testing conditions (referring to villagers living in wild districts) is always close to hearsay. It never happened, that is. The only logical outcome of this attitude is a very narrow and one-sided outlook on life. 

In other words. The bad climate is not a result of different views on the topic discussed, but a result of the inability to interact in a productive and professional way with those who have a different view. It isn't about tigers and dholes or lions and tigers but about those involved in the discussion, that is. Meaning it no longer it about wild animals, but us.    

I could give you a piece of your own cake in order to let you know how it feels to be torn apart by someone guided by preference, but that will never happen. One reason is I respect the passion and dedication I often see in your posts. Two is I often like the result of your effort. Three is I see you as a friend. A friend struggling with his passion at times. I told you about the disadvantages of a lack of control some time ago. This is the second attempt.

No matter what you do, focus on good info and stay away from too much fire, as it can result in double standards, unfair appreciations, insults, a bad climate and thread pollution. Also remember that energy invested in discrediting always backfire. Learn to deal with things you don't like. If Sankhala says a lion will best a tiger in a confrontation, disagree by all means. Use arguments and logic. Never ever allow yourself to discredit a man who deserves the respect of all interested in the natural world.       

You are invited to respond to this post. Do it right this time, as your last posts resulted in a loss of credibility. My advice is to start with Sankhala, but Wolverine and Shadow would appreciate an apology as well.

SMEDZ 

A month ago, you got involved in a brawl in this thread. After the demonstration, I was in favour of a permanent ban. Sanjay, however, thinks everyone deserves a second chance. As he's a wise and gentle man, you got it. When you returned, you did apologies and promises for extras.

It's fact you got involved in another argument when the opportunity presented itself. Again, it resulted in insult, pollution and animosity. 

I know age can result in problems, but attitude isn't related to age only. In this thread, I want good info and good debates. As you're unable to contribute in these departments, you will no longer post in this thread.

You can develop a few things in other threads, but remember there are rules of conduct. Also remember a new ban is a permanent ban.   

COOPER

This thread is about good information about wild tigers. Stay out of crap and leave your matches at home.

ALL

As of now, forum rules will be applied in a more strict way. You can post and debate anything you want (tigers and dholes included), provided the forum rules and mods are respected at all times. Remember a discussion is about exchanging views, sound arguments and about respect. Judgement is out, that is. This thread is about wild tigers. Not us.

If you see fundamentalism and some of his friends, contact a mod. If he concludes a rule was violated, good advice will be offered. If ignored, a warning will follow. If the warning has no effect, the result will be a ban.

The format will be changed. The extinction threads (as well as a few others) will remain in the Information Section, but new posts will appear in the New Premier League first. In that section, you can only post when you have permission. If you want to contribute, ask a mod. The extinction threads will remain in the information section as well and the posts discussed in the New Premier League will be added later.

POSTERS INVITED TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE NEW PREMIER LEAGUE SECTION 

- All mods
@Pckts
@Roflcopters
@Wolverine
@Shadow
@BorneanTiger
@Lycaon
@Suhail
@Guate (after he apologized)
@Matias
@Rage2277
@Jeffrey
@Jimmy
@phatio
@johnny rex
@GreenForest
@Sully
@Siegfried
@Smilodon-Rex
@Kingtheropod
@Ghari Sher
@Caveman
@Spalea
@SuSpicious Reply