There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
Tiger Poachers To Be Shot On Sight In Indian State
Following an upsurge in poaching, the government of Maharashtra state, Western India, says injuring or killing suspected poachers will no longer be considered a crime.
More tigers have been killed so far this year than the whole of 2017. Just three days ago, the mutilated carcass of a tiger sans head and paws and chopped into 10 pieces was recovered.
At the First Stocktaking Meeting of Global Tiger Recovery Programs in Delhi last week, India’s Environment Minister Jayanthi Natarajan said that in the last four months, 30 tigers have been killed in India.
Maharashtra forest guards will not be “booked for human rights violations when they have taken action against poachers,” the government said.
Tiger numbers in India have dropped to 1,600 from 5,000-7,000 estimated in the 1990s, according to the International Union for Conservation of Nature. Maharashtra has 169 tigers, including 36 cubs; most of them inhabit three tiger reserves in the Vidarbha region.
Maharashtra’s chief wildlife warden, SWH Naqvi, said that more guards will be posted but hopes to curb poaching more effectively through a new fund to pay informants. The government’s plan also includes active participation of villagers.
The announcements come a week after an alert was issued by the state Forest Department that poachers in neighboring Madhya Pradesh have been paid an advance to kill 25 tigers in Maharashtra.
All leave sanctioned for forest guards has been cancelled till mid-June to ensure there is maximum protection for the tigers.
When you find a jaw trap near a water body in a park, in our past experience we have seen, it is not a one- off event. If one (tiger) goes, you have to believe that twenty will go of you don’t take steps. In Tadoba recently, there were jaw traps found – 2 tigers were trapped. One died, the other is struggling. The department has become alert.
02-09-2019, 04:44 AM( This post was last modified: 02-21-2019, 06:00 PM by peter )
KAILASH SANKHALA ON TIGERS AND DHOLES
a - Introduction
In 1977, 'Tiger! - The Story of the Indian Tiger' was published. I bought it a few years later. A good one, I think.
Sankhala was born in Jodhpur (Rajahstan), on the fringe of the desert. Rajahstan is derived from Registhan, which means 'land of sand'. About half of Rajahstan is part of the Thar desert. His father was a forest ranger. The area he worked in, the Aravali Hills, was famous for sloth bears and leopards. Many years later, he was appointed Director of the Jodhpur zoo.
Living in the forest in primitive conditions for extended periods of time and frequent moves from one area to another has disadvantages, especially for children. According to Sankhala, children of foresters never learn to compete in life. Poverty (forest officers do not earn a lot of money) also has consequences. Sankhala's parents had four children, of which only one could go to college. Sankhala was the lucky one.
At college, he joined an expedition to cross the Thar Desert in the hottest month (May) as a botanist and photographer. Although the expedition didn't result in a lot of credit at college, it put him in head of the queue for selection to the Forest Service. This was quite something, as appointments in those days were given to the 'chosen few'. This was in the days Maharajahs still had quite a bit of influence.
After college, Sankhala joined the Indian Forest College at Dehra Dun:
" ... I have never regretted my time in the Forest Service, with it's fine century-old tradition of conservation. This training, augmented at intervals by short courses on ecology and park administration both in India and the USA, made me a purist. The unlimited opportunities of studying nature ... I only got as a forester. And above all I was able to live with tigers in the wild for days and nights on end, often in full presence of each other's presence but probably even more often in ignorance of it ... " (pp. 15).
His first posting (in April 1953) was in Bundi, a former princely State. Later, he took charge of Khaiwara, a small forest in the south-west of Udaipur. Four months later, he was in charge of a Bharatpur forest division. This posting in particular affected his outlook and career. Between 1965-1970, he was Director of the Delhi Zoo. In 1970, he was awarded the Jawarhalal Nehru Fellowship. This enabled him to increase his knowledge on Indian wildlife.
For a period of two years, Sariska and Ranthambore (in Rajahstan) were his study areas. He also studied tigers in Kanha National Park in Madhya Pradesh in 1971. This was the park selected by George Schaller in 1964-1965:
" ... I found that the information he had collected was mostly from one family of conditioned tigers, which had been provided with baits for more than one-and-a-half years. The group only included one male and was confined to a small area of 10-15 sq km. Vital aspects such as reproduction and the behaviour of a tigress and her infant cubs had not been studied in depth. Schaller's work was valuable in being the first ever to be fully recorded in the field, but it was insufficient to justify wider application. At that time the real facts about tigers' distribution, numbers and the conditions under which they were surviving in other parts of the country were not known ... " (pp. 18).
The first part of 'Tiger! - The Story of the Indian Tiger' is based on what he saw in Bundi, Khaiwara, Udaipur, Sariska, Ranthambore and Kanha in the period 1953-1972. In the second part, the focus is on the relation between tigers and humans. One chapter in this part is about the famous white tigers of Rewa. If you want to know a bit more about white tigers, I recommend Sankhala's book:
*This image is copyright of its original author
b - On tiger 'Jim'
In the fifties and sixties of the previous century, killing tigresses and collecting their cubs was a flourishing business in India. The cubs fetched $ 1.000,00 a piece in the foreign market. Sankhala proposed to introduce a system of providing a certificate of origin for the export of tiger cubs during the fifth session of the Indian Board for Wildlife in 1965. After his proposal had been accepted, the trade in tiger cubs collapsed.
In spite of that, tigresses with cubs were still shot or poisoned quite often. One day, the Delhi Zoo, headed by Kailash Sankhala in the period 1965-1970, got a cub from Kanha National Park. Although suffering from gastro-enteritis, the cub made it. Jim, as he was named by the local politician who got the cub from villagers, was adopted by the Sankhala family. When he was about two years of age, he was moved to the Delhi Zoo.
Sankhala's first attempt to introduce 'Jim' to a tigress with a similar background from the Dehra Dun forests ('Rosy') failed. A fight erupted. Tigers raised by humans respond different than tigers raised by tigresses. They need more time to adapt to tiger society.
Sankhala recorded lengths and weights of captive tigers in the Delhi Zoo. These records showed that white tigers often were longer, taller and heavier than others. A white male tiger at the Delhi Zoo ('Raja') was 100 cm. at the shoulder while standing. Male tiger 'Suraj', a normal-coloured tiger, was 90 cm.
Compared to some of the tigers discussed in this thread, tiger 'Jim' was moderate in size. His standing height was 93 cm. at the shoulder and his total length (most probably measured 'over curves') was 282 cm. His weight was 426 pounds (192 kg.).
The bond they had never was completely lost: " ... He and I do not meet as we used to do, though when I go to see him he will hold my hand in his mouth to remind me of the old days ... " (pp. 171). Here's a nice photograph of both:
*This image is copyright of its original author
c - On dholes
When studying tigers in Kanha National Park in 1971-1972, he noticed they were difficult to find when wild dogs were around. Sankhala thought the animosity created by wild dogs reduced the chances for leopards and tigers.
In Kanha, he saw a cheetal doe wounded by a pack of 18 wild dogs entering a compound. In the evergreen forests of the Western Ghats, Sankhala saw a pack of 21 wild dogs chase a sambar fawn into a deep channel, where she was killed.
In Sankhala's opinion, wild dogs do not fear other predators. At times, they will even chase a tiger from its kill or send it up a tree:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Some of us consider a lot of old stories about tigers and dholes as exaggerated interpretations of reports close to hearsay. There are no recent reports about tigers harrassed or wounded by dholes, they say. There are, however, reliable reports about dholes chased, killed and eaten by tigers.
True.
That, however, doesn't mean that all old stories about tigers and dholes are unreliable. It also doesn't mean that dholes can't be dangerous for cubs, youngsters and incapacitated individuals today:
Sankhala saw a tiger crossing a river between Rajahstan and Madhya Pradesh. A mugger met the tiger halfway. Here's the rest of the story:
*This image is copyright of its original author
e - Tigers and pythons
In some time, I will discuss a few books that have reliable accounts of severe struggles between tigers and pythons. Here's two stories from Sankahla's book:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
f - Conclusion
The natural world is quite something. Predators in particular as special to many. Not a few consider big cats as the culmination of evolution. Although an adult lion, tiger, jaguar or leopard is impressive no matter what, many forget that it takes time to get there undamaged. A lot of time.
In the first months, cubs of solitary big cats often are on their own for many hours, even days. When discovered by other predators, they wouldn't stand a chance. This is without floods, thunder storms, heat waves, angry villagers and too many diseases to even start counting.
When they survive the first year, they learn what it means to be a predator eating meat only. Most of the animals they hunt, can be dangerous. This is why many of them are disabled by mom when they start hunting. When they, after a year or so, survive hunting school and graduate, they are kicked out.
The period between adolescence and adulthood is as dangerous as the first months, if not more so. Homeless and on the move all the time, they need to avoid mistakes of any kind. The reason is any mistake could be their last. Every hunt is concluded by a life and death struggle with an animal not seldom able to hurt or even kill a big cat. And they most definitely will given half a chance.
Although some say that about half of all tiger cubs reach adulthood, others think that estimate is way too optimistic. Talking severe selection here.
Adult wild big cats, first of all and foremost, are survivors. They didn't get there by attacking animals able to kill them at every opportunity, but by thinking and learning. Trial and error. Male lions need to learn how to interact the hard way from the start, but solitary big cats often are selective and wary. They just don't have another option, as an injury can result in starvation and death. Solitary cats need to be careful all the time all their life.
When big cats reach adulthood, they graduated. With honour and then some. This means every discussion on intelligence is a result of a lack of understanding. And respect. Respect they in particular deserve more than anyone.
Adult tigers, on account of their size and power, do not fear wild dogs. But wild dogs are great hunters and they are truly wild. They can't be 'tamed' and are known for their determination and courage. Their nickname, mad dog, is a result of their courage. Every now and then, they do something that surprises all. In times of need, they have been known to chase even tigers. When a big cat runs, he will be attacked in the way they attack a deer. A single dog is unable to seriously injure a tiger, but a pack can hurt any tiger if they decide to go all out. A suicide mission, no?
I've been in the famous zoo in the eastern part of Berlin on a gloomy day. After seeing the big cats, we visited the wild dogs. Apart from us, there were no visitors. We were circling the enclosure, but didn't see anything. Then, out of nowhere, one of the dogs was right behind us. When we turned, they came from all directions. Small, they were, but they were fully alert and it wasn't a game. Did it have an effect? We had seen an Amur tigress with quite large cubs known for her temper. Her demonstration was impressive, but she was behind bars wasn't she. After the dogs talked to us, however, my companions said it was time to go. They felt intimidated.
Would these mad dogs consider a suicide attack in some conditions? No question, I concluded. But that's just an opinion.
02-09-2019, 06:00 AM( This post was last modified: 02-09-2019, 06:03 AM by Shadow )
(02-09-2019, 04:44 AM)peter Wrote: KAILASH SANKHALA ON TIGERS AND DHOLES
a - Introduction
In 1977, 'Tiger! - The Story of the Indian Tiger' was published. I bought it a few years later. A good one, I think.
Sankhala was born in Jodhpur (Rajahstan), on the fringe of the desert. Rajahstan is derived from Registhan, which means 'land of sand'. About half of Rajahstan is part of the Thar desert. His father was a forest ranger. The area he worked in, the Aravali Hills, was famous for sloth bears and leopards. Many years later, he was appointed Director of the Jodhpur zoo.
Living in the forest in primitive conditions for extended periods of time and frequent moves from one area to another have disadvantages, especially for children. According to Sankhala, children of foresters never learn to compete in life. Poverty (forest officers do not earn a lot of money) also has consequences. Sankhala's parents had four children, of which only one could go to college. Sankhala was the lucky one.
At college, he joined an expedition to cross the Thar Desert in the hottest month (May). Sankhala was a botanist and photographer. Although the expedition didn't result in a lot of credit at college, it put him in head of the queue for selection to the Forest Service. This was quite something, as appointments in those days were given to the 'chosen few'. This was in the days Maharajahs still had quite a bit of influence.
After college, Sankhala joined the Indian Forest College at Dehra Dun:
" ... I have never regretted my time in the Forest Service, with it's fine century-old tradition of conservation. This training, augmented at intervals by short courses on ecology and park administration both in India and the USA, made me a purist. The unlimited opportunities of studying nature ... I only got as a forester. And above all I was able to live with tigers in the wild for days and nights on end, often in full presence of each other's presence but probably even more often in ignorance of it ... " (pp. 15).
His first posting (in April 1953) was in Bundi, a former princely State. Later, he took charge of Khaiwara, a small forest in the south-west of Udaipur. Four months later, he was in charge of a Bharatpur forest division. This posting in particular affected his outlook and career. Between 1965-1970, he was Director of the Delhi Zoo. In 1970, he was awarded the Jawarhalal Nehru Fellowship. This enabled him to increase his knowledge on Indian wildlife.
For a period of two years, Sariska and Ranthambore (in Rajahstan) were his study areas. He also studied tigers in Kanha National Park in Madhya Pradesh in 1971. This was the park selected by George Schaller in 1964-1965:
" ... I found that the information he had collected was mostly from one family of conditioned tigers, which had been provided with baits for more than one-and-a-half years. The group only included one male and was confined to a small area of 10-15 sq km. Vital aspects such as reproduction and the behaviour of a tigress and her infant cubs had not been studied in depth. Schaller's work was valuable in being the first ever to be fully recorded in the field, but it was insufficient to justify wider application. At that time the real facts about tigers' distribution, numbers and the conditions under which they were surviving in other parts of the country were not known ... " (pp. 18).
The first part of 'Tiger! - The Story of the Indian Tiger' is based on what he saw in Bundi, Khaiwara, Udaipur, Sariska, Ranthambore and Kanha in the period 1953-1972. In the second part, the focus is on the relation between tigers and humans. One chapter in this part is about the famous white tigers of Rewa. If you want to know a bit more about white tigers, I recommend Sankhala's book:
*This image is copyright of its original author
b - On tiger 'Jim'
In the fifties and sixties of the previous century, killing tigresses and collecting their cubs was a flourishing business in India. The cubs fetched $ 1.000,00 a piece in the foreign market. Sankhala proposed to introduce a system of providing a certificate of origin for the export of tiger cubs during the fifth session of the Indian Board for Wildlife in 1965. After his proposal had been accepted, the trade in tiger cubs collapsed.
In spite of that, tigresses with cubs were still shot or poisoned quite often. One day, the Delhi Zoo, headed by Kailash Sankhala in the period 1965-1970, got a cub from Kanha National Park. Although suffering from gastro-enteritis, the cub made it. Jim, as he was named by the local politician who got the cub from villagers, was adopted by the Sankhala family. When he was about two years of age, he was moved to the Delhi Zoo.
Sankhala's first attempt to introduce 'Jim' to a tigress with a similar background from the Dehra Dun forests ('Rosy') failed. The reason is that tigers deprived of maternal contact (and raised by humans) need more time to get used to other tigers.
Sankhala recorded lengths and weights of captive tigers in the Delhi Zoo. These records showed that white tigers often are longer, taller and heavier than others. A white male tiger at the Delhi Zoo ('Raja') was 100 cm. at the shoulder while standing. Male tiger 'Suraj', a normal-coloured tiger, was 90 cm.
Compared to some of the tigers discussed in this thread, tiger 'Jim' was moderate in size. His standing height was 93 cm. at the shoulder and his total length (most probably measured 'over curves') was 282 cm. His weight was 426 pounds (192 kg.).
The bond they had never was completely lost: " ... He and I do not meet as we used to do, though when I go to see him he will hold my hand in his mouth to remind me of the old days ... " (pp. 171). Here's a nice photograph of both:
*This image is copyright of its original author
c - On dholes
When studying tigers in Kanha National Park in 1971-1972, he noticed they were difficult to find when wild dogs were around. Sankhala thought the animosity created by wild dogs reduced the opportunities to hunt.
In Kanha, he saw a cheetal doe wounded by a pack of 18 wild dogs entering a compound. In the evergreen forests of the Western Ghats, Sankhala saw a pack of 21 wild dogs chase a sambar fawn into a deep channel, where she was killed.
In Sankhala's opinion, wild dogs do not fear other predators. At times, they will even chase a tiger from its kill or send it up a tree:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Some of us consider a lot of old stories about tigers and dholes as exaggerated interpretations of reports close to hearsay. There are no recent reports about tigers harrassed or wounded by dholes, they say. There are, however, reliable reports about dholes chased, killed and eaten by tigers.
True.
That, however, doesn't mean that all old stories about tigers and dholes are unreliable. It also doesn't mean that dholes can't be dangerous for cubs, youngsters and injured adults today:
Sankhala saw a tiger crossing a river between Rajahstan and Madhya Pradesh. A mugger met the tiger halfway. Here's the rest of the story:
*This image is copyright of its original author
e - Tigers and pythons
In some time, I will discuss a few books that have reliable accounts of severe struggles between tigers and pythons. Here's two stories from Sankahla's book:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Nice, that you had that. If I would have put here photos of that book in finnish, I would have been only member understanding it :) And google translator with finnish language is mostly a good joke, so if someone would have tried to use it...
There are btw some quite funny situations which Sankhala tells in his book. Like the one, where a cobra dropped to his observation place and another, where he was sleeping and as he say most probably snoring and then waking up to noises of tiger drinking nearby :) It is interesting to read his book, when he shares more, than just figures and photos. And that time, when he is there waiting a tiger and that park ranger drives there suddenly with a group of tourists and starts to tell to people who Sankhala is and what he is doing there and same time Sankhala is so upset while keeping polite appearance :) It is so nice to learn and still time to time get a good laugh too. And learn also about difficulties what people working on the field have faced in past and are facing also today.
The following 1 user Likes Shadow's post:1 user Likes Shadow's post • peter
(02-09-2019, 04:44 AM)peter Wrote: KAILASH SANKHALA ON TIGERS AND DHOLES
a - Introduction
In 1977, 'Tiger! - The Story of the Indian Tiger' was published. I bought it a few years later. A good one, I think.
Sankhala was born in Jodhpur (Rajahstan), on the fringe of the desert. Rajahstan is derived from Registhan, which means 'land of sand'. About half of Rajahstan is part of the Thar desert. His father was a forest ranger. The area he worked in, the Aravali Hills, was famous for sloth bears and leopards. Many years later, he was appointed Director of the Jodhpur zoo.
Living in the forest in primitive conditions for extended periods of time and frequent moves from one area to another have disadvantages, especially for children. According to Sankhala, children of foresters never learn to compete in life. Poverty (forest officers do not earn a lot of money) also has consequences. Sankhala's parents had four children, of which only one could go to college. Sankhala was the lucky one.
At college, he joined an expedition to cross the Thar Desert in the hottest month (May) as a botanist and photographer. Although the expedition didn't result in a lot of credit at college, it put him in head of the queue for selection to the Forest Service. This was quite something, as appointments in those days were given to the 'chosen few'. This was in the days Maharajahs still had quite a bit of influence.
After college, Sankhala joined the Indian Forest College at Dehra Dun:
" ... I have never regretted my time in the Forest Service, with it's fine century-old tradition of conservation. This training, augmented at intervals by short courses on ecology and park administration both in India and the USA, made me a purist. The unlimited opportunities of studying nature ... I only got as a forester. And above all I was able to live with tigers in the wild for days and nights on end, often in full presence of each other's presence but probably even more often in ignorance of it ... " (pp. 15).
His first posting (in April 1953) was in Bundi, a former princely State. Later, he took charge of Khaiwara, a small forest in the south-west of Udaipur. Four months later, he was in charge of a Bharatpur forest division. This posting in particular affected his outlook and career. Between 1965-1970, he was Director of the Delhi Zoo. In 1970, he was awarded the Jawarhalal Nehru Fellowship. This enabled him to increase his knowledge on Indian wildlife.
For a period of two years, Sariska and Ranthambore (in Rajahstan) were his study areas. He also studied tigers in Kanha National Park in Madhya Pradesh in 1971. This was the park selected by George Schaller in 1964-1965:
" ... I found that the information he had collected was mostly from one family of conditioned tigers, which had been provided with baits for more than one-and-a-half years. The group only included one male and was confined to a small area of 10-15 sq km. Vital aspects such as reproduction and the behaviour of a tigress and her infant cubs had not been studied in depth. Schaller's work was valuable in being the first ever to be fully recorded in the field, but it was insufficient to justify wider application. At that time the real facts about tigers' distribution, numbers and the conditions under which they were surviving in other parts of the country were not known ... " (pp. 18).
The first part of 'Tiger! - The Story of the Indian Tiger' is based on what he saw in Bundi, Khaiwara, Udaipur, Sariska, Ranthambore and Kanha in the period 1953-1972. In the second part, the focus is on the relation between tigers and humans. One chapter in this part is about the famous white tigers of Rewa. If you want to know a bit more about white tigers, I recommend Sankhala's book:
*This image is copyright of its original author
b - On tiger 'Jim'
In the fifties and sixties of the previous century, killing tigresses and collecting their cubs was a flourishing business in India. The cubs fetched $ 1.000,00 a piece in the foreign market. Sankhala proposed to introduce a system of providing a certificate of origin for the export of tiger cubs during the fifth session of the Indian Board for Wildlife in 1965. After his proposal had been accepted, the trade in tiger cubs collapsed.
In spite of that, tigresses with cubs were still shot or poisoned quite often. One day, the Delhi Zoo, headed by Kailash Sankhala in the period 1965-1970, got a cub from Kanha National Park. Although suffering from gastro-enteritis, the cub made it. Jim, as he was named by the local politician who got the cub from villagers, was adopted by the Sankhala family. When he was about two years of age, he was moved to the Delhi Zoo.
Sankhala's first attempt to introduce 'Jim' to a tigress with a similar background from the Dehra Dun forests ('Rosy') failed. A fight erupted. Tigers raised by humans respond different than tigers raised by tigresses. They need more time to adapt to tiger society.
Sankhala recorded lengths and weights of captive tigers in the Delhi Zoo. These records showed that white tigers often were longer, taller and heavier than others. A white male tiger at the Delhi Zoo ('Raja') was 100 cm. at the shoulder while standing. Male tiger 'Suraj', a normal-coloured tiger, was 90 cm.
Compared to some of the tigers discussed in this thread, tiger 'Jim' was moderate in size. His standing height was 93 cm. at the shoulder and his total length (most probably measured 'over curves') was 282 cm. His weight was 426 pounds (192 kg.).
The bond they had never was completely lost: " ... He and I do not meet as we used to do, though when I go to see him he will hold my hand in his mouth to remind me of the old days ... " (pp. 171). Here's a nice photograph of both:
*This image is copyright of its original author
c - On dholes
When studying tigers in Kanha National Park in 1971-1972, he noticed they were difficult to find when wild dogs were around. Sankhala thought the animosity created by wild dogs reduced the chances for leopards and tigers.
In Kanha, he saw a cheetal doe wounded by a pack of 18 wild dogs entering a compound. In the evergreen forests of the Western Ghats, Sankhala saw a pack of 21 wild dogs chase a sambar fawn into a deep channel, where she was killed.
In Sankhala's opinion, wild dogs do not fear other predators. At times, they will even chase a tiger from its kill or send it up a tree:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Some of us consider a lot of old stories about tigers and dholes as exaggerated interpretations of reports close to hearsay. There are no recent reports about tigers harrassed or wounded by dholes, they say. There are, however, reliable reports about dholes chased, killed and eaten by tigers.
True.
That, however, doesn't mean that all old stories about tigers and dholes are unreliable. It also doesn't mean that dholes can't be dangerous for cubs, youngsters and incapacitated individuals today:
Sankhala saw a tiger crossing a river between Rajahstan and Madhya Pradesh. A mugger met the tiger halfway. Here's the rest of the story:
*This image is copyright of its original author
e - Tigers and pythons
In some time, I will discuss a few books that have reliable accounts of severe struggles between tigers and pythons. Here's two stories from Sankahla's book:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
f - Conclusion
The natural world is quite something. Predators in particular as special to many. Not a few consider big cats as the culmination of evolution. Although an adult lion, tiger, jaguar or leopard is impressive no matter what, many forget that it takes time to get there undamaged. A lot of time.
In the first months, cubs of solitary big cats often are on their own for many hours, even days. When discovered by other predators, they wouldn't stand a chance. This is without floods, thunder storms, heat waves, angry villagers and too many diseases to even start counting.
When they survive the first year, they learn what it means to be a predator eating meat only. Most of the animals they hunt, can be dangerous. This is why many of them are disabled by mom when they start hunting. When they, after a year or so, survive hunting school and graduate, they are kicked out.
The period between adolescence and adulthood is as dangerous as the first months, if not more so. Homeless and on the move all the time, they need to avoid mistakes of any kind. The reason is any mistake could be their last. Every hunt is concluded by a life and death struggle with an animal not seldom able to hurt or even kill a big cat. And they most definitely will given half a chance.
Although some say that about half of all tiger cubs reach adulthood, others think that estimate is way too optimistic. Talking severe selection here.
Adult wild big cats, first of all and foremost, are survivors. They didn't get there by attacking animals able to kill them at every opportunity, but by thinking and learning. Trial and error. Male lions need to learn how to interact the hard way from the start, but solitary big cats often are selective and wary. As careful as it gets. They just don't have another option, as an injury can result in starvation and death. Solitary cats need to be careful all the time all their life. Anyone who says a wild big cat is a 'coward', for this reason, is a total nitwit.
When big cats reach adulthood and a territory, they graduated. With honour and then some. This means that every discussion on intelligence is a result of a total lack of understanding. And respect. Respect they perhaps deserve more than anyone.
Adult tigers, on account of their size and power, do not fear wild dogs. But wild dogs are great hunters and they are truly wild. They can't be 'tamed' and are known for their determination and courage. Their nickname, mad dog, is a result of their courage and their behavior, which can be unpredictable at times. Every now and then, they do something that surprises all. In times of need, they have been known to chase even tigers. When a big cat runs, he will be attacked in the way they attack a deer. A single dog is unable to seriously injure a tiger, but a pack can hurt any tiger if they decide to go all out. A suicide mission, no?
I've been in the famous zoo in the eastern part of Berlin on a cloudy and gloomy day. After seeing the big cats, we visited the wild dogs. Apart from us, there were no visitors. We were circling the enclosure, but didn't see anything. Then one of the dogs was right behind us. One yard at most. When we turned, they came from all directions. Small, they were, but they were fully alert and it wasn't a game. Did it have an effect? We had seen an Amur tigress with quite large cubs known for her temper. Her demonstration was impressive, but she was behind bars wasn't she. A good show, it was. After the dogs had talked to us, however, my companions said it was time to go. They were intimidated. By animals known to avoid humans anywhere.
Would these mad dogs consider a suicide attack in some conditions? No question, I concluded. But that's just an opinion.
Peter, thanks for sharing with us original of the Shankala's book "The Story of the Indian Tiger", I searched it through the web, but didn't find it. It add valuable information on the true nature of the tiger-dhole relations.
02-09-2019, 07:59 AM( This post was last modified: 02-13-2019, 08:20 AM by Rishi )
CANIDS
My advice is to distinguish between hyenas, African wild dogs, wolves, coyotes, jackals, dholes, dogs, street dogs and feral dogs. All of them will attack domesticated animals (including pets) and humans in some conditions. Dholes do not. I've seen all of them them in zoos and facilities, studied their behavior, talked to people who knew them in captivity and talked to those who had seen their wild relatives. Dholes are different from all others. More wild at heart, more dangerous, more capable and more clever. They have the eye.
SANKHALA AND ANDERSON
Sankhala didn't see wild dogs harassing tigers. Some of his collegues did. They were Forest Rangers and Forest Officers. They didn't write books, but some of them informed him about their experiences. Reliable, that is.
Kenneth Anderson didn't say he heard about this or that. He actually saw a tigress chased by dogs and he saw her kill one when she was attacked. He actually saw her run and he also saw the main pack following shortly after. In total, almost thirty dogs were involved. The people who told him about the fight that followed later were not hired by glossies. They had known Anderson for a long time. They trusted each other. In the wild, you have to. Anderson also saw wild dogs harrass, injure and kill other animals. Animals able to kill humans, like sloth bears, wild boars, leopards and hyenas.
Kenneth Anderson wasn't the only one who saw interactions between dholes and tigers. Read a few books written by those who worked in old India in the 19th century. I'm not saying every story is reliable, but some people saw things others did not. Doesn't mean they didn't happen.
HUNTERS
What you saw in the USA is not disputed. Hunters profit from exaggerated stories about predators with a terrible lust to kill. I know. I also know they will eliminate competitors given half a chance. Finally, I know that many spectacular stories grow in size every time they are retold. All of that, however, doesn't mean that these stories were a result of hearsay or exaggeration. If you dismiss anything out of the ordinary as crap all the time, you're no different from those accepting everything they read on the internet. I know it isn't easy to find your way, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't give it a try.
Here's a few examples of stories considered as myths by many.
STORIES ON THE SIZE OF INDIAN, NEPAL AND RUSSIAN TIGERS
A few decades ago, biologists just about dismissed every story on exceptional tigers. This is why they carried 500-pound scales when they started in India. When they admitted they could have been a bit too harsh, 600-pound scales were added. In Nepal, they still came up short in at least two cases.
In Russia, biologists were as sceptical as in India, if not more so. According to some, everything written on the alleged size of Amur tigers was total crap. They only trusted what they had weighed and measured themselves. The method used to measure tigers was unsound, but there was no question that Amur tigers were way smaller than the tigers featuring in all these old stories. Their table, however, included problem tigers close to starvation and young adults. Furthermore, they forgot that Amur tigers had walked the edge for nearly half a century. They also ignored the impact of habitat destruction and prey depletion. New dimensions in scepticism, if not outright arrogance.
In Russia, tigers now are protected. Protection is taken serious. There are anti-poaching teams and they're good. Penalties for poachers are more severe. Tigers responded. According to Olga Krasnykh, there could be more Amur tigers than biologists say. Much more. Conditions are improving all the time. China will add a new large reserve soon. Biologists had to, ehh, adapt a few statements on tigers and bears in the Russian Far East recently. My guess is they have to adapt a few statements on size as well. Soon, I think.
A STORY ABOUT LIFE AND DEATH FROM RUSSIA
Wolverine posted a story about a male tiger and the big wild boar he killed. This thread. Find it. It's not based on hearsay, but facts. In Russia, a male Amur tiger in his prime was found dead close to a road. They followed the trail he had left in the snow. About ten km. away from the road, they found a dead wild boar. Big tusks, he had. What happened?
The autopsy said the tiger had been very close to death before he attacked the wild boar. The reason was cancer. It was everywhere. The cancer in particular had affected his spine and hind limbs, meaning he had been barely able to walk, let alone move properly before he attacked the wild boar.
So why did he attack? The reason is hunger.
As he was unable to move his hindlegs, the attack failed. The wild boar turned round and attacked himself. Mistake. Although he crushed the pelvis area, the tiger killed him.
Vets said the tiger had more or less passed the gates of life before he attacked. An ex-tiger, he was. But he attacked the wild boar and killed him. First time a wild boar was killed by a dead tiger. After he died a second time (the boar destroyed the pelvis area of the tiger before he was killed), the tiger, using his front limbs only, dragged himself to a road. In the snow. Downhill. Ten km. using his arms only. Yes, ten. Close to the road, he died a third time.
REALITY AND ATTITUDE
What I'm saying is life often is surprising and complicated. The best way to deal with reality is to stay away from fixed opinions, firm statements, arrogance, fundamentalism and all the rest of it. The only way to learn is to open up and get rid of crap. Not easy, but there are rewards. Good luck.
02-09-2019, 10:12 PM( This post was last modified: 02-10-2019, 06:05 AM by Shadow )
(02-09-2019, 04:44 AM)peter Wrote: KAILASH SANKHALA ON TIGERS AND DHOLES
a - Introduction
In 1977, 'Tiger! - The Story of the Indian Tiger' was published. I bought it a few years later. A good one, I think.
Sankhala was born in Jodhpur (Rajahstan), on the fringe of the desert. Rajahstan is derived from Registhan, which means 'land of sand'. About half of Rajahstan is part of the Thar desert. His father was a forest ranger. The area he worked in, the Aravali Hills, was famous for sloth bears and leopards. Many years later, he was appointed Director of the Jodhpur zoo.
Living in the forest in primitive conditions for extended periods of time and frequent moves from one area to another have disadvantages, especially for children. According to Sankhala, children of foresters never learn to compete in life. Poverty (forest officers do not earn a lot of money) also has consequences. Sankhala's parents had four children, of which only one could go to college. Sankhala was the lucky one.
At college, he joined an expedition to cross the Thar Desert in the hottest month (May) as a botanist and photographer. Although the expedition didn't result in a lot of credit at college, it put him in head of the queue for selection to the Forest Service. This was quite something, as appointments in those days were given to the 'chosen few'. This was in the days Maharajahs still had quite a bit of influence.
After college, Sankhala joined the Indian Forest College at Dehra Dun:
" ... I have never regretted my time in the Forest Service, with it's fine century-old tradition of conservation. This training, augmented at intervals by short courses on ecology and park administration both in India and the USA, made me a purist. The unlimited opportunities of studying nature ... I only got as a forester. And above all I was able to live with tigers in the wild for days and nights on end, often in full presence of each other's presence but probably even more often in ignorance of it ... " (pp. 15).
His first posting (in April 1953) was in Bundi, a former princely State. Later, he took charge of Khaiwara, a small forest in the south-west of Udaipur. Four months later, he was in charge of a Bharatpur forest division. This posting in particular affected his outlook and career. Between 1965-1970, he was Director of the Delhi Zoo. In 1970, he was awarded the Jawarhalal Nehru Fellowship. This enabled him to increase his knowledge on Indian wildlife.
For a period of two years, Sariska and Ranthambore (in Rajahstan) were his study areas. He also studied tigers in Kanha National Park in Madhya Pradesh in 1971. This was the park selected by George Schaller in 1964-1965:
" ... I found that the information he had collected was mostly from one family of conditioned tigers, which had been provided with baits for more than one-and-a-half years. The group only included one male and was confined to a small area of 10-15 sq km. Vital aspects such as reproduction and the behaviour of a tigress and her infant cubs had not been studied in depth. Schaller's work was valuable in being the first ever to be fully recorded in the field, but it was insufficient to justify wider application. At that time the real facts about tigers' distribution, numbers and the conditions under which they were surviving in other parts of the country were not known ... " (pp. 18).
The first part of 'Tiger! - The Story of the Indian Tiger' is based on what he saw in Bundi, Khaiwara, Udaipur, Sariska, Ranthambore and Kanha in the period 1953-1972. In the second part, the focus is on the relation between tigers and humans. One chapter in this part is about the famous white tigers of Rewa. If you want to know a bit more about white tigers, I recommend Sankhala's book:
*This image is copyright of its original author
b - On tiger 'Jim'
In the fifties and sixties of the previous century, killing tigresses and collecting their cubs was a flourishing business in India. The cubs fetched $ 1.000,00 a piece in the foreign market. Sankhala proposed to introduce a system of providing a certificate of origin for the export of tiger cubs during the fifth session of the Indian Board for Wildlife in 1965. After his proposal had been accepted, the trade in tiger cubs collapsed.
In spite of that, tigresses with cubs were still shot or poisoned quite often. One day, the Delhi Zoo, headed by Kailash Sankhala in the period 1965-1970, got a cub from Kanha National Park. Although suffering from gastro-enteritis, the cub made it. Jim, as he was named by the local politician who got the cub from villagers, was adopted by the Sankhala family. When he was about two years of age, he was moved to the Delhi Zoo.
Sankhala's first attempt to introduce 'Jim' to a tigress with a similar background from the Dehra Dun forests ('Rosy') failed. A fight erupted. Tigers raised by humans respond different than tigers raised by tigresses. They need more time to adapt to tiger society.
Sankhala recorded lengths and weights of captive tigers in the Delhi Zoo. These records showed that white tigers often were longer, taller and heavier than others. A white male tiger at the Delhi Zoo ('Raja') was 100 cm. at the shoulder while standing. Male tiger 'Suraj', a normal-coloured tiger, was 90 cm.
Compared to some of the tigers discussed in this thread, tiger 'Jim' was moderate in size. His standing height was 93 cm. at the shoulder and his total length (most probably measured 'over curves') was 282 cm. His weight was 426 pounds (192 kg.).
The bond they had never was completely lost: " ... He and I do not meet as we used to do, though when I go to see him he will hold my hand in his mouth to remind me of the old days ... " (pp. 171). Here's a nice photograph of both:
*This image is copyright of its original author
c - On dholes
When studying tigers in Kanha National Park in 1971-1972, he noticed they were difficult to find when wild dogs were around. Sankhala thought the animosity created by wild dogs reduced the chances for leopards and tigers.
In Kanha, he saw a cheetal doe wounded by a pack of 18 wild dogs entering a compound. In the evergreen forests of the Western Ghats, Sankhala saw a pack of 21 wild dogs chase a sambar fawn into a deep channel, where she was killed.
In Sankhala's opinion, wild dogs do not fear other predators. At times, they will even chase a tiger from its kill or send it up a tree:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Some of us consider a lot of old stories about tigers and dholes as exaggerated interpretations of reports close to hearsay. There are no recent reports about tigers harrassed or wounded by dholes, they say. There are, however, reliable reports about dholes chased, killed and eaten by tigers.
True.
That, however, doesn't mean that all old stories about tigers and dholes are unreliable. It also doesn't mean that dholes can't be dangerous for cubs, youngsters and incapacitated individuals today:
Sankhala saw a tiger crossing a river between Rajahstan and Madhya Pradesh. A mugger met the tiger halfway. Here's the rest of the story:
*This image is copyright of its original author
e - Tigers and pythons
In some time, I will discuss a few books that have reliable accounts of severe struggles between tigers and pythons. Here's two stories from Sankahla's book:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
f - Conclusion
The natural world is quite something. Predators in particular as special to many. Not a few consider big cats as the culmination of evolution. Although an adult lion, tiger, jaguar or leopard is impressive no matter what, many forget that it takes time to get there undamaged. A lot of time.
In the first months, cubs of solitary big cats often are on their own for many hours, even days. When discovered by other predators, they wouldn't stand a chance. This is without floods, thunder storms, heat waves, angry villagers and too many diseases to even start counting.
When they survive the first year, they learn what it means to be a predator eating meat only. Most of the animals they hunt, can be dangerous. This is why many of them are disabled by mom when they start hunting. When they, after a year or so, survive hunting school and graduate, they are kicked out.
The period between adolescence and adulthood is as dangerous as the first months, if not more so. Homeless and on the move all the time, they need to avoid mistakes of any kind. The reason is any mistake could be their last. Every hunt is concluded by a life and death struggle with an animal not seldom able to hurt or even kill a big cat. And they most definitely will given half a chance.
Although some say that about half of all tiger cubs reach adulthood, others think that estimate is way too optimistic. Talking severe selection here.
Adult wild big cats, first of all and foremost, are survivors. They didn't get there by attacking animals able to kill them at every opportunity, but by thinking and learning. Trial and error. Male lions need to learn how to interact the hard way from the start, but solitary big cats often are selective and wary. As careful as it gets. They just don't have another option, as an injury can result in starvation and death. Solitary cats need to be careful all the time all their life. Anyone who says a wild big cat is a 'coward', for this reason, is a total nitwit.
When big cats reach adulthood and a territory, they graduated. With honour and then some. This means that every discussion on intelligence is a result of a total lack of understanding. And respect. Respect they perhaps deserve more than anyone.
Adult tigers, on account of their size and power, do not fear wild dogs. But wild dogs are great hunters and they are truly wild. They can't be 'tamed' and are known for their determination and courage. Their nickname, mad dog, is a result of their courage and their behavior, which can be unpredictable at times. Every now and then, they do something that surprises all. In times of need, they have been known to chase even tigers. When a big cat runs, he will be attacked in the way they attack a deer. A single dog is unable to seriously injure a tiger, but a pack can hurt any tiger if they decide to go all out. A suicide mission, no?
I've been in the famous zoo in the eastern part of Berlin on a cloudy and gloomy day. After seeing the big cats, we visited the wild dogs. Apart from us, there were no visitors. We were circling the enclosure, but didn't see anything. Then one of the dogs was right behind us. One yard at most. When we turned, they came from all directions. Small, they were, but they were fully alert and it wasn't a game. Did it have an effect? We had seen an Amur tigress with quite large cubs known for her temper. Her demonstration was impressive, but she was behind bars wasn't she. A good show, it was. After the dogs had talked to us, however, my companions said it was time to go. They were intimidated. By animals known to avoid humans anywhere.
Would these mad dogs consider a suicide attack in some conditions? No question, I concluded. But that's just an opinion.
Overall when we are discussing about things, everyone should really understand differences between commonly happening thing from things happening more seldom, rare occasions and then exceptional cases. And maybe about some things can be used term "once in a lifetime".
Many things concerning dhole reputation can be seen in many videos. Some things then again not, there is not so much footage about them.
What comes to tigers and dholes and discussion about their interaction and possible fights, Anderson and Corbett are only two sources. If there would be only them, it would be one thing, now we have about ten or so different people giving same kind of information. We don´t have a 100% sure and valid case, but for me and some others that gives a reason to study the subject and learn all what is possible. I think, that we are discussing there in rare and exceptional cases, no 100% certainty, but I personally can´t with current information keep it impossible. I have seen too many "impossible" things in wildlife while trying to learn about it. If dholes could be confirmed to be killing tigers in some cases, that wouldn´t be even near of top 10 in that list.
Urbanization & migration to cities may boost tigers, study finds
Asia is undergoing a demographic transition, as populations grow more slowly and become more urbanized.
Depending on policy decisions around migration, urbanization, education & economics, trend toward urbanization could provide more space for tiger numbers to rebound.
A team of researchers modeled five different “socioeconomic pathways” for the continent, showing that a focus on sustainable living could result in fewer than 40 million people living within the tiger’s range by 2100, 30% less than in 2010. But that number could also balloon to 100 million if countries veer away from international cooperation & poor management of urbanization.
In April 2018, Sanderson and Walston demonstrated that the global shift toward city living could reshape conservation. Instead of being built around stemming the hemorrhage of species loss, conservation could be focused on recovery, they wrote in a study published in the journal BioScience.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Researchers from a prominent non-profit feel that Asia's increasing urbanisation and rapid demographic transition could mean that tiger range areas would be more free of people. For example; 50% of India's population is expected to be urban by 2050.
“If we want a world with tigers, forests, and wildness to persist beyond the 21st century, conservation needs to join forces with groups working to alleviate poverty, enhance education for girls, reduce meat consumption, and build sustainable cities,” said Joe Walston, a co-author of the study and vice president of field conservation with the Wildlife Conservation Society (WCS).
“Urbanisation and the subsequent human demographic transition is arguably the most important historical trend shaping the future of conservation. How that transition plays out is not pre-determined. Rather, it depends on the policy decisions that governments, and the societies they represent, take with respect to fundamental matters such as urban governance, education, economic reform and the movement of people and trade goods. These decisions matter for us and tigers too,” says Eric W Sanderson from the Wildlife Conservation Society (WCS), who has co-authored the study Implications of the shared socioeconomic pathways for tiger (Panthera tigris) conservation. It was published in the journal Biological Conservation.
(01-16-2019, 08:14 PM)Wolverine Wrote: The fact that Mr Karanth (and Mr Chundawat) has not witnessed personaly a tiger attacked by dholes doesn't mean that such an events have never happened. Such a statement from his side will be a sign a high self esteem and a basically ridiculous. In order to make general conclusions about tiger-dhole relations we need to collect all information in the last 2 centuries from hunters, local people and scientists. Blaming Kenneth Anderson, a man who spent his entire life in the the Indian jungles Mr Karanth became himself vulnerable for accusations. While highly talented stories of Anderson will be read even after century, frankly speaking Karanth texts are one of the most boring and clumsy scientific texts I have ever try to read.
Zoological survey of India, tiger injured by dholes in Kanha, 1963
*This image is copyright of its original author
Dr Karanth is a lead expert on tigers ecology and conservation and also other predators in India, his credit is much bigger than that of Kenneth Anderson. I support Karanth on this, the same with Dr Chundawat, they actually have seen interations between tigers, leopards and dholes and they have the proofs of that. The fact is that the tiger do dominate this interactions, dholes can harash the tiger but they do not attack them for predation, tigers do and all the interactions reported by them and other naturalits in the wild support they point of view.
Also, other point regarding what the simple observation shows and what the deep study shows: simple observation shows that leopards run away from dholes, but deeper investigation shows that leopards DO HUNT and eat dholes as there are evidence in the scats, this is something that simple observation do not show.
The note of H. Khajuria do not state the age, health state of the tiger or even worst, IF it was a real tiger because they don't saw it, they only hear it. I am NOT saying that local people is not reliable, but some times a good "story" may slip the filters. Even then, the article at the page 449 do not say anything regarding the outcome of the fight, it only says that they happen.
Quote:Again, the videos that you posted shows that the dholes are very nervous and are trying to disctract the tiger or drive it away. Tiger, on the other hand, dominate them, attack them or simply ignore them.
I have hard time to see a "domination" in some of these videos. Yes, dholes are cautious, but they obviously don't afraid of the tiger at all, they are impudent, cautious and curious altogether.
I agree Wolverine. You definitely know what science is.
Not agree and all. The fact that those particular dholes are harasing the tiger doesn't mean that they are not afraid at all. For the contrary they are very nervous advancing and returning, the tigers is just piss off.
That is not what science means @brotherbear, you already know that.
02-12-2019, 01:59 AM( This post was last modified: 02-12-2019, 04:32 AM by GuateGojira )
(02-09-2019, 04:44 AM)peter Wrote: KAILASH SANKHALA ON TIGERS AND DHOLES
a - Introduction
In 1977, 'Tiger! - The Story of the Indian Tiger' was published. I bought it a few years later. A good one, I think.
Sankhala was born in Jodhpur (Rajahstan), on the fringe of the desert. Rajahstan is derived from Registhan, which means 'land of sand'. About half of Rajahstan is part of the Thar desert. His father was a forest ranger. The area he worked in, the Aravali Hills, was famous for sloth bears and leopards. Many years later, he was appointed Director of the Jodhpur zoo.
Living in the forest in primitive conditions for extended periods of time and frequent moves from one area to another have disadvantages, especially for children. According to Sankhala, children of foresters never learn to compete in life. Poverty (forest officers do not earn a lot of money) also has consequences. Sankhala's parents had four children, of which only one could go to college. Sankhala was the lucky one.
At college, he joined an expedition to cross the Thar Desert in the hottest month (May) as a botanist and photographer. Although the expedition didn't result in a lot of credit at college, it put him in head of the queue for selection to the Forest Service. This was quite something, as appointments in those days were given to the 'chosen few'. This was in the days Maharajahs still had quite a bit of influence.
After college, Sankhala joined the Indian Forest College at Dehra Dun:
" ... I have never regretted my time in the Forest Service, with it's fine century-old tradition of conservation. This training, augmented at intervals by short courses on ecology and park administration both in India and the USA, made me a purist. The unlimited opportunities of studying nature ... I only got as a forester. And above all I was able to live with tigers in the wild for days and nights on end, often in full presence of each other's presence but probably even more often in ignorance of it ... " (pp. 15).
His first posting (in April 1953) was in Bundi, a former princely State. Later, he took charge of Khaiwara, a small forest in the south-west of Udaipur. Four months later, he was in charge of a Bharatpur forest division. This posting in particular affected his outlook and career. Between 1965-1970, he was Director of the Delhi Zoo. In 1970, he was awarded the Jawarhalal Nehru Fellowship. This enabled him to increase his knowledge on Indian wildlife.
For a period of two years, Sariska and Ranthambore (in Rajahstan) were his study areas. He also studied tigers in Kanha National Park in Madhya Pradesh in 1971. This was the park selected by George Schaller in 1964-1965:
" ... I found that the information he had collected was mostly from one family of conditioned tigers, which had been provided with baits for more than one-and-a-half years. The group only included one male and was confined to a small area of 10-15 sq km. Vital aspects such as reproduction and the behaviour of a tigress and her infant cubs had not been studied in depth. Schaller's work was valuable in being the first ever to be fully recorded in the field, but it was insufficient to justify wider application. At that time the real facts about tigers' distribution, numbers and the conditions under which they were surviving in other parts of the country were not known ... " (pp. 18).
The first part of 'Tiger! - The Story of the Indian Tiger' is based on what he saw in Bundi, Khaiwara, Udaipur, Sariska, Ranthambore and Kanha in the period 1953-1972. In the second part, the focus is on the relation between tigers and humans. One chapter in this part is about the famous white tigers of Rewa. If you want to know a bit more about white tigers, I recommend Sankhala's book:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
b - On tiger 'Jim'
In the fifties and sixties of the previous century, killing tigresses and collecting their cubs was a flourishing business in India. The cubs fetched $ 1.000,00 a piece in the foreign market. Sankhala proposed to introduce a system of providing a certificate of origin for the export of tiger cubs during the fifth session of the Indian Board for Wildlife in 1965. After his proposal had been accepted, the trade in tiger cubs collapsed.
In spite of that, tigresses with cubs were still shot or poisoned quite often. One day, the Delhi Zoo, headed by Kailash Sankhala in the period 1965-1970, got a cub from Kanha National Park. Although suffering from gastro-enteritis, the cub made it. Jim, as he was named by the local politician who got the cub from villagers, was adopted by the Sankhala family. When he was about two years of age, he was moved to the Delhi Zoo.
Sankhala's first attempt to introduce 'Jim' to a tigress with a similar background from the Dehra Dun forests ('Rosy') failed. A fight erupted. Tigers raised by humans respond different than tigers raised by tigresses. They need more time to adapt to tiger society.
Sankhala recorded lengths and weights of captive tigers in the Delhi Zoo. These records showed that white tigers often were longer, taller and heavier than others. A white male tiger at the Delhi Zoo ('Raja') was 100 cm. at the shoulder while standing. Male tiger 'Suraj', a normal-coloured tiger, was 90 cm.
Compared to some of the tigers discussed in this thread, tiger 'Jim' was moderate in size. His standing height was 93 cm. at the shoulder and his total length (most probably measured 'over curves') was 282 cm. His weight was 426 pounds (192 kg.).
The bond they had never was completely lost: " ... He and I do not meet as we used to do, though when I go to see him he will hold my hand in his mouth to remind me of the old days ... " (pp. 171). Here's a nice photograph of both:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
c - On dholes
When studying tigers in Kanha National Park in 1971-1972, he noticed they were difficult to find when wild dogs were around. Sankhala thought the animosity created by wild dogs reduced the chances for leopards and tigers.
In Kanha, he saw a cheetal doe wounded by a pack of 18 wild dogs entering a compound. In the evergreen forests of the Western Ghats, Sankhala saw a pack of 21 wild dogs chase a sambar fawn into a deep channel, where she was killed.
In Sankhala's opinion, wild dogs do not fear other predators. At times, they will even chase a tiger from its kill or send it up a tree:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Some of us consider a lot of old stories about tigers and dholes as exaggerated interpretations of reports close to hearsay. There are no recent reports about tigers harrassed or wounded by dholes, they say. There are, however, reliable reports about dholes chased, killed and eaten by tigers.
True.
That, however, doesn't mean that all old stories about tigers and dholes are unreliable. It also doesn't mean that dholes can't be dangerous for cubs, youngsters and incapacitated individuals today:
Sankhala saw a tiger crossing a river between Rajahstan and Madhya Pradesh. A mugger met the tiger halfway. Here's the rest of the story:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
e - Tigers and pythons
In some time, I will discuss a few books that have reliable accounts of severe struggles between tigers and pythons. Here's two stories from Sankahla's book:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
f - Conclusion
The natural world is quite something. Predators in particular as special to many. Not a few consider big cats as the culmination of evolution. Although an adult lion, tiger, jaguar or leopard is impressive no matter what, many forget that it takes time to get there undamaged. A lot of time.
In the first months, cubs of solitary big cats often are on their own for many hours, even days. When discovered by other predators, they wouldn't stand a chance. This is without floods, thunder storms, heat waves, angry villagers and too many diseases to even start counting.
When they survive the first year, they learn what it means to be a predator eating meat only. Most of the animals they hunt, can be dangerous. This is why many of them are disabled by mom when they start hunting. When they, after a year or so, survive hunting school and graduate, they are kicked out.
The period between adolescence and adulthood is as dangerous as the first months, if not more so. Homeless and on the move all the time, they need to avoid mistakes of any kind. The reason is any mistake could be their last. Every hunt is concluded by a life and death struggle with an animal not seldom able to hurt or even kill a big cat. And they most definitely will given half a chance.
Although some say that about half of all tiger cubs reach adulthood, others think that estimate is way too optimistic. Talking severe selection here.
Adult wild big cats, first of all and foremost, are survivors. They didn't get there by attacking animals able to kill them at every opportunity, but by thinking and learning. Trial and error. Male lions need to learn how to interact the hard way from the start, but solitary big cats often are selective and wary. As careful as it gets. They just don't have another option, as an injury can result in starvation and death. Solitary cats need to be careful all the time all their life. Anyone who says a wild big cat is a 'coward', for this reason, is a total nitwit.
When big cats reach adulthood and a territory, they graduated. With honour and then some. This means that every discussion on intelligence is a result of a total lack of understanding. And respect. Respect they perhaps deserve more than anyone.
Adult tigers, on account of their size and power, do not fear wild dogs. But wild dogs are great hunters and they are truly wild. They can't be 'tamed' and are known for their determination and courage. Their nickname, mad dog, is a result of their courage and their behavior, which can be unpredictable at times. Every now and then, they do something that surprises all. In times of need, they have been known to chase even tigers. When a big cat runs, he will be attacked in the way they attack a deer. A single dog is unable to seriously injure a tiger, but a pack can hurt any tiger if they decide to go all out. A suicide mission, no?
I've been in the famous zoo in the eastern part of Berlin on a cloudy and gloomy day. After seeing the big cats, we visited the wild dogs. Apart from us, there were no visitors. We were circling the enclosure, but didn't see anything. Then one of the dogs was right behind us. One yard at most. When we turned, they came from all directions. Small, they were, but they were fully alert and it wasn't a game. Did it have an effect? We had seen an Amur tigress with quite large cubs known for her temper. Her demonstration was impressive, but she was behind bars wasn't she. A good show, it was. After the dogs had talked to us, however, my companions said it was time to go. They were intimidated. By animals known to avoid humans anywhere.
Would these mad dogs consider a suicide attack in some conditions? No question, I concluded. But that's just an opinion.
Kailash Sankhala - a side note:
I also have his book, but I almoust never use it, why? well because his conclutions are incorrect most of the time.
It is really disturbing and even silly how Sankhala discredit the studies of the "westerns" like Schaller and Seidensticker, and is not only the small paragraph that you posted, there are several times when he critizice the methods and findings of the "westerns" (including the FACT that tigers use the olfactory sense for comunication, for God's sake!!!). In fact, I know that he is part of why the mentality on conservation of tigers by the authorities in India is still so slow and even atavic, after all he was the one that stoped the first aproach between the Smithsonian Institute and the Indian Goverment. At the end, we know that the Smithsonian experts went to Nepal and it took several years since 1960 and until 1990 to start a real scientific study of tigers in India using modern technology (Dr Karanth in Nagarahole).
Sankhala's book is confusing and even dangerous to use it, it sale very weird ideas about the tiger behavior and I can even say that those same ideas were the one's presented by the chiefs of the "Project Tiger" when the Sariska tiger dissapeared. In fact, the same stupid ideas that tigers are not territorial and that they "migrate to the mountains", that were used to justify the dissaperance of tigers in Panna and Sariska by the people of the Project Tiger, were first stablished by Shankala. The conclusions about the territoriality of tigers in Ranthambore are completelly different from those of the longer and more accurate observations of the great Valmik Thapar. IF you read Thapar, Schaller, Sunquist and Chundawat, and latter you read Sankhala, is like if they are talking of two completelly different animals!
For this, and other reasons I don't believe that Sankhala's book is a good source on tiger behaviour, altough some information about reproduction and feeding intake from his captive tigers was quoted by Dr Sunquist, but just that. In fact, his recalcitrant and highly burocratic point of view infected the Project Tiger so strongly that even in modern times they continue ignoring the modern results on tiger ecology based in scientific develpment. In fact Dr Karanth state that: "We both continue to strongly belive that the scientific process of per review and publication in high-quality journals should guide the choice of appropiate methods for monitoring tigers and their prey. Therefore, we are somewhat dismayed that, in spite of availability of superior methods, tiger conservation practitioners are sometimes slow to adopt them or even use demostrably flawed or obsolete methodologies. We believe this is largely because of intellectual inertia, rather than resource constraints, given the current levels of investments. Unfortunately, we can offer no methodological cure for this problem." (Karanth & Nichols, 2017 - Preface). If you ask me when this flawed metholodolgies started, I can tell you that part of that started with Sankhala, that is for sure.
Despite his good intentions and the fact that tigers are still in decent numbres in India because of the initial efforst when he was included, Sankhala point of view on tigers affected its conservation at future level, as India have many small pockets of not interconnected tiger habitat, that altough is good to save it for the short term, it is very problematic for the survival of the tiger in the future. I think that if some one should have called "The Tiger Man of India", that should be the great Valmik Thapar, which not only made good personal investigations with national naturalists, but also blended succesfully the studies of those "westerns" scientists which methodologies, at the end, are the ones that are also saving tigers in Nepal, Russia and Thailand, despite its smallest territory or lower prey base.
On the Dhole issue:
About the tiger and dhole interactions, it is interesting to see that he don't saw any fight or type of conflict. In fact he concluded that the tigers leave the area because the dogs put all the prey in the area in alert status, which is exactly what the tiger don't want (tigers prey by ambush, and when a serial of unsuccesfull attempts but the prey on alert, the tiger move from the area). Also is interestingly that when he says that tigers can killed and eated by dholes, he relay in the "early-twentieth-century paintings" (are he serious?) and by "recent" observations (which?).
Again, Sankhala do not present direct evidence of dhole predation on tiger, nor even conflict, just a logical avoidance based in the fact tigers been ambush predators can hunt with high alarmed prey.
Valmik Thapar in his great book "Tiger the ultimate guide" also quote four events of tiger and dholes (page 136 - 137), one of them is the report of Kenneth Anderson, the second is one of W. Connell (JBNHS IN 1944) where he said that a tiger (no sex or age) was attacked by a pack of 22 dholes, at the end the tiger was killed and eat but he killed 12 of them (half of the pack for one meal?). The third event is reported by Colonel Kesri Singh which in the book "The Tiger of Rajasthan" (1959) describes an evening when a tiger feed on a sambar for nearly 30 minutes but when he listened the cries of the dholes, the tiger started been anxious and uncomfortable but state in its ground. At the end the dholes arrived and surronded him, the tiger growled and the dogs whimpered, the tiger striked a couple of the dogs but at the end decided to flee, the dogs stay there and eat the sambar, they did not followed the tiger, again no age or sex was described and this sounds more like a young tiger, but is my speculation. The forth event is quoted from the BBC television series "Land of the Tiger" and includes a footage shot in Kanha National Park in 1997 when a tigress chase away a pack of dholes and appopriate the kill. These four events are the only thing that Thapar mention about the tiger-dhole conflict.
I want to make clear that Dr Karanth, nor I, are saying that the report of Kenneth Anderson is fake, he only says that maybe somewhat exagerated and the fact that there is no case of dholes attacking (actually attacking) adult tigers during more than 50 years of scientific study, put some doubts to the reputation that the dhole have in India. It seems that, following Mazák, an adult healty tiger is out of the predation range of any dhole pack, but a young and unexperiance tiger, or a week, injured or very ill one can be killed by a large dhole group, not without heavy losses. But this is a thing of the past now.
02-12-2019, 03:03 AM( This post was last modified: 02-12-2019, 03:16 AM by Shadow )
(02-12-2019, 01:59 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(02-09-2019, 04:44 AM)peter Wrote: KAILASH SANKHALA ON TIGERS AND DHOLES
a - Introduction
In 1977, 'Tiger! - The Story of the Indian Tiger' was published. I bought it a few years later. A good one, I think.
Sankhala was born in Jodhpur (Rajahstan), on the fringe of the desert. Rajahstan is derived from Registhan, which means 'land of sand'. About half of Rajahstan is part of the Thar desert. His father was a forest ranger. The area he worked in, the Aravali Hills, was famous for sloth bears and leopards. Many years later, he was appointed Director of the Jodhpur zoo.
Living in the forest in primitive conditions for extended periods of time and frequent moves from one area to another have disadvantages, especially for children. According to Sankhala, children of foresters never learn to compete in life. Poverty (forest officers do not earn a lot of money) also has consequences. Sankhala's parents had four children, of which only one could go to college. Sankhala was the lucky one.
At college, he joined an expedition to cross the Thar Desert in the hottest month (May) as a botanist and photographer. Although the expedition didn't result in a lot of credit at college, it put him in head of the queue for selection to the Forest Service. This was quite something, as appointments in those days were given to the 'chosen few'. This was in the days Maharajahs still had quite a bit of influence.
After college, Sankhala joined the Indian Forest College at Dehra Dun:
" ... I have never regretted my time in the Forest Service, with it's fine century-old tradition of conservation. This training, augmented at intervals by short courses on ecology and park administration both in India and the USA, made me a purist. The unlimited opportunities of studying nature ... I only got as a forester. And above all I was able to live with tigers in the wild for days and nights on end, often in full presence of each other's presence but probably even more often in ignorance of it ... " (pp. 15).
His first posting (in April 1953) was in Bundi, a former princely State. Later, he took charge of Khaiwara, a small forest in the south-west of Udaipur. Four months later, he was in charge of a Bharatpur forest division. This posting in particular affected his outlook and career. Between 1965-1970, he was Director of the Delhi Zoo. In 1970, he was awarded the Jawarhalal Nehru Fellowship. This enabled him to increase his knowledge on Indian wildlife.
For a period of two years, Sariska and Ranthambore (in Rajahstan) were his study areas. He also studied tigers in Kanha National Park in Madhya Pradesh in 1971. This was the park selected by George Schaller in 1964-1965:
" ... I found that the information he had collected was mostly from one family of conditioned tigers, which had been provided with baits for more than one-and-a-half years. The group only included one male and was confined to a small area of 10-15 sq km. Vital aspects such as reproduction and the behaviour of a tigress and her infant cubs had not been studied in depth. Schaller's work was valuable in being the first ever to be fully recorded in the field, but it was insufficient to justify wider application. At that time the real facts about tigers' distribution, numbers and the conditions under which they were surviving in other parts of the country were not known ... " (pp. 18).
The first part of 'Tiger! - The Story of the Indian Tiger' is based on what he saw in Bundi, Khaiwara, Udaipur, Sariska, Ranthambore and Kanha in the period 1953-1972. In the second part, the focus is on the relation between tigers and humans. One chapter in this part is about the famous white tigers of Rewa. If you want to know a bit more about white tigers, I recommend Sankhala's book:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
b - On tiger 'Jim'
In the fifties and sixties of the previous century, killing tigresses and collecting their cubs was a flourishing business in India. The cubs fetched $ 1.000,00 a piece in the foreign market. Sankhala proposed to introduce a system of providing a certificate of origin for the export of tiger cubs during the fifth session of the Indian Board for Wildlife in 1965. After his proposal had been accepted, the trade in tiger cubs collapsed.
In spite of that, tigresses with cubs were still shot or poisoned quite often. One day, the Delhi Zoo, headed by Kailash Sankhala in the period 1965-1970, got a cub from Kanha National Park. Although suffering from gastro-enteritis, the cub made it. Jim, as he was named by the local politician who got the cub from villagers, was adopted by the Sankhala family. When he was about two years of age, he was moved to the Delhi Zoo.
Sankhala's first attempt to introduce 'Jim' to a tigress with a similar background from the Dehra Dun forests ('Rosy') failed. A fight erupted. Tigers raised by humans respond different than tigers raised by tigresses. They need more time to adapt to tiger society.
Sankhala recorded lengths and weights of captive tigers in the Delhi Zoo. These records showed that white tigers often were longer, taller and heavier than others. A white male tiger at the Delhi Zoo ('Raja') was 100 cm. at the shoulder while standing. Male tiger 'Suraj', a normal-coloured tiger, was 90 cm.
Compared to some of the tigers discussed in this thread, tiger 'Jim' was moderate in size. His standing height was 93 cm. at the shoulder and his total length (most probably measured 'over curves') was 282 cm. His weight was 426 pounds (192 kg.).
The bond they had never was completely lost: " ... He and I do not meet as we used to do, though when I go to see him he will hold my hand in his mouth to remind me of the old days ... " (pp. 171). Here's a nice photograph of both:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
c - On dholes
When studying tigers in Kanha National Park in 1971-1972, he noticed they were difficult to find when wild dogs were around. Sankhala thought the animosity created by wild dogs reduced the chances for leopards and tigers.
In Kanha, he saw a cheetal doe wounded by a pack of 18 wild dogs entering a compound. In the evergreen forests of the Western Ghats, Sankhala saw a pack of 21 wild dogs chase a sambar fawn into a deep channel, where she was killed.
In Sankhala's opinion, wild dogs do not fear other predators. At times, they will even chase a tiger from its kill or send it up a tree:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Some of us consider a lot of old stories about tigers and dholes as exaggerated interpretations of reports close to hearsay. There are no recent reports about tigers harrassed or wounded by dholes, they say. There are, however, reliable reports about dholes chased, killed and eaten by tigers.
True.
That, however, doesn't mean that all old stories about tigers and dholes are unreliable. It also doesn't mean that dholes can't be dangerous for cubs, youngsters and incapacitated individuals today:
Sankhala saw a tiger crossing a river between Rajahstan and Madhya Pradesh. A mugger met the tiger halfway. Here's the rest of the story:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
e - Tigers and pythons
In some time, I will discuss a few books that have reliable accounts of severe struggles between tigers and pythons. Here's two stories from Sankahla's book:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
f - Conclusion
The natural world is quite something. Predators in particular as special to many. Not a few consider big cats as the culmination of evolution. Although an adult lion, tiger, jaguar or leopard is impressive no matter what, many forget that it takes time to get there undamaged. A lot of time.
In the first months, cubs of solitary big cats often are on their own for many hours, even days. When discovered by other predators, they wouldn't stand a chance. This is without floods, thunder storms, heat waves, angry villagers and too many diseases to even start counting.
When they survive the first year, they learn what it means to be a predator eating meat only. Most of the animals they hunt, can be dangerous. This is why many of them are disabled by mom when they start hunting. When they, after a year or so, survive hunting school and graduate, they are kicked out.
The period between adolescence and adulthood is as dangerous as the first months, if not more so. Homeless and on the move all the time, they need to avoid mistakes of any kind. The reason is any mistake could be their last. Every hunt is concluded by a life and death struggle with an animal not seldom able to hurt or even kill a big cat. And they most definitely will given half a chance.
Although some say that about half of all tiger cubs reach adulthood, others think that estimate is way too optimistic. Talking severe selection here.
Adult wild big cats, first of all and foremost, are survivors. They didn't get there by attacking animals able to kill them at every opportunity, but by thinking and learning. Trial and error. Male lions need to learn how to interact the hard way from the start, but solitary big cats often are selective and wary. As careful as it gets. They just don't have another option, as an injury can result in starvation and death. Solitary cats need to be careful all the time all their life. Anyone who says a wild big cat is a 'coward', for this reason, is a total nitwit.
When big cats reach adulthood and a territory, they graduated. With honour and then some. This means that every discussion on intelligence is a result of a total lack of understanding. And respect. Respect they perhaps deserve more than anyone.
Adult tigers, on account of their size and power, do not fear wild dogs. But wild dogs are great hunters and they are truly wild. They can't be 'tamed' and are known for their determination and courage. Their nickname, mad dog, is a result of their courage and their behavior, which can be unpredictable at times. Every now and then, they do something that surprises all. In times of need, they have been known to chase even tigers. When a big cat runs, he will be attacked in the way they attack a deer. A single dog is unable to seriously injure a tiger, but a pack can hurt any tiger if they decide to go all out. A suicide mission, no?
I've been in the famous zoo in the eastern part of Berlin on a cloudy and gloomy day. After seeing the big cats, we visited the wild dogs. Apart from us, there were no visitors. We were circling the enclosure, but didn't see anything. Then one of the dogs was right behind us. One yard at most. When we turned, they came from all directions. Small, they were, but they were fully alert and it wasn't a game. Did it have an effect? We had seen an Amur tigress with quite large cubs known for her temper. Her demonstration was impressive, but she was behind bars wasn't she. A good show, it was. After the dogs had talked to us, however, my companions said it was time to go. They were intimidated. By animals known to avoid humans anywhere.
Would these mad dogs consider a suicide attack in some conditions? No question, I concluded. But that's just an opinion.
Kailash Sankhala - a side note:
I also have his book, but I almoust never use it, why? well because his conclutions are incorrect most of the time.
It is really disturbing and even silly how Sankhala discredit the studies of the "westerns" like Schaller and Seidensticker, and is not only the small paragraph that you posted, there are several times when he critizice the methods and findings of the "westerns" (including the FACT that tigers use the olfactory sense for comunication, for God's sake!!!). In fact, I know that he is part of why the mentality on conservation of tigers by the authorities in India is still so slow and even atavic, after all he was the one that stoped the first aproach between the Smithsonian Institute and the Indian Goverment. At the end, we know that the Smithsonian experts went to Nepal and it took several years since 1960 and until 1990 to start a real scientific study of tigers in India using modern technology (Dr Karanth in Nagarahole).
Sankhala's book is confusing and even dangerous to use it, it sale very weird ideas about the tiger behavior and I can even say that those same ideas were the one's presented by the chiefs of the "Project Tiger" when the Sariska tiger dissapeared. In fact, the same stupid ideas that tigers are not territorial and that they "migrate to the mountains", that were used to justify the dissaperance of tigers in Panna and Sariska by the people of the Project Tiger, were first stablished by Shankala. The conclusions about the territoriality of tigers in Ranthambore are completelly different from those of the longer and more accurate observations of the great Valmik Thapar. IF you read Thapar, Schaller, Sunquist and Chundawat, and latter you read Sankhala, is like if they are talking of two completelly different animals!
For this, and other reasons I don't believe that Sankhala's book is a good source on tiger behaviour, altough some information about reproduction and feeding intake from his captive tigers was quoted by Dr Sunquist, but just that. In fact, his recalcitrant and highly burocratic point of view infected the Project Tiger so strongly that even in modern times they continue ignoring the modern results on tiger ecology based in scientific develpment. In fact Dr Karanth state that: "We both continue to strongly belive that the scientific process of per review and publication in high-quality journals should guide the choice of appropiate methods for monitoring tigers and their prey. Therefore, we are somewhat dismayed that, in spite of availability of superior methods, tiger conservation practitioners are sometimes slow to adopt them or even use demostrably flawed or obsolete methodologies. We believe this is largely because of intellectual inertia, rather than resource constraints, given the current levels of investments. Unfortunately, we can offer no methodological cure for this problem." (Karanth & Nichols, 2017 - Preface). If you ask me when this flawed metholodolgies started, I can tell you that part of that started with Sankhala, that is for sure.
Despite his good intentions and the fact that tigers are still in decent numbres in India because of the initial efforst when he was included, Sankhala point of view on tigers affected its conservation at future level, as India have many small pockets of not interconnected tiger habitat, that altough is good to save it for the short term, it is very problematic for the survival of the tiger in the future. I think that if some one should have called "The Tiger Man of India", that should be the great Valmik Thapar, which not only made good personal investigations with national naturalists, but also blended succesfully the studies of those "westerns" scientists which methodologies, at the end, are the ones that are also saving tigers in Nepal, Russia and Thailand, despite its smallest territory or lower prey base.
On the Dhole issue:
About the tiger and dhole interactions, it is interesting to see that he don't saw any fight or type of conflict. In fact he concluded that the tigers leave the area because the dogs put all the prey in the area in alert status, which is exactly what the tiger don't want (tigers prey by ambush, and when a serial of unsuccesfull attempts but the prey on alert, the tiger move from the area). Also is interestingly that when he says that tigers can killed and eated by dholes, he relay in the "early-twentieth-century paintings" (are he serious?) and by "recent" observations (which?).
Again, Sankhala do not present direct evidence of dhole predation on tiger, nor even conflict, just a logical avoidance based in the fact tigers been ambush predators can hunt with high alarmed prey.
Valmik Thapar in his great book "Tiger the ultimate guide" also quote three events of tiger and dholes (page 136 - 137), one of them is the report of Kenneth Anderson, the other is one of W. Connell (JBNHS IN 1944) where he said that a tiger (no sex or age) was attacked by a pack of 22 dholes, at the end the tiger was killed and eat but he killed 12 of them (half of the pack for one meal?). The other event is reported by Colonel Kesri Singh which in the book "The Tiger of Rajasthan" (1959) describes an evening when a tiger feed on a sambar for nearly 30 minutes but when he listened the cries of the dholes, the tiger started been anxious and uncomfortable but state in its ground. At the end the dholes arrived and surronded him, the tiger growled and the dogs whimpered, the tiger striked a couple of the dogs but at the end decided to flee, the dogs stay there and eat the sambar, they did not followed the tiger, again no age or sex was described and this sounds more like a young tiger, but is my speculation. The third event is quoted from the BBC television series "Land of the Tiger" and includes a footage shot in Kanha National Park in 1997 when a tigress chase away a pack of dholes and appopriate the kill. These three events are the only thing that Thapar mention about the tiger-dhole conflict.
I want to make clear that Dr Karanth, nor I, are saying that the report of Kenneth Anderson is fake, he only says that maybe somewhat exagerated and the fact that there is no case of dholes attacking (actually attacking) adult tigers during more than 50 years of scientific study, put some doubts to the reputation that the dhole have in India. It seems that, following Mazák, an adult healty tiger is out of the predation range of any dhole pack, but a young and unexperiance tiger, or a week, injured or very ill one can be killed by a large dhole group, not without heavy losses. But this is a thing of the past now.
Here we are in the interesting part. Some conclusions are always controversial, some conclusions can be later proven to be otherwise. But then there is still the fact, that observations are there, what kind of conclusions can be made from them can then again variate depending from whom is asked about. That is why it is so interesting to collect information from so many sources as possible and see where are similarities, where are differences and where arguments.
It is one thing to make error in conclusion than make on purpose false statements. I don´t think, that Sankhala on purpose wanted to write something in different way, than he saw and felt. That is of course same with all information, many times even quite new research is argued and it can take quite some time before there is larger consensus about something :)
It is nice to hear opinions of course, but more interesting when finding new information. Karanth is a good researcher, but for reasons said here many times, he´s observations for sure are ok, but another thing is, that do all think, that there is yet enough information to say about some things, that impossible or never happened. I am not yet convinced, that some old statements about dholes couldn´t be confirmed one day. There seems to be now some interest to study more about them too. Also Karanth and his team if I have understood right are there all the time.
Anyway we can have many opinions, but even more interesting it is if some new sources still can be found. Or more information about some quite recent articles about some wild dogs injuring and killing tigers if possible.
(02-12-2019, 03:50 AM)smedz Wrote: Seriously? Kailash Sankhala did all that stuff? Well if you say so, now I REALLY won't believe him. Thanks for this big time.
Yes, he wrote that in his book. I was also amazed when I read many other weird statements about tigers in his book and I inmediatelly remembered that documentary of Valmik Thapar ("Battle for the Tiger", I guess) when the man in charge of the Project Tiger was repeating those same things to justify the lack of tigers in Sariska. That is why I think that reading that book can create confusion. I will advise to read other sources first, like Schaller's "The deer and the tiger", Sunquist's "The social organization of tigers...", "Wild Cats of the World-tiger chapter" and "Tiger Moon", Karanth's "The Way of the tiger", Chundawat's "The rise and fall of the Emeral tigers", Smith's chapter on tigresses territoriality in the book "Tigers of the World" first edition of 1987, McDougal's "The face fo the tiger" and of course Thapar's "Tiger the ultimate guide", "The secret life of the tiger" and "Tiger portrait of a predator". After that, you can try with Sankhala.
By the way, the book of Dr Chundawat "The Rise and Fall of the Emerald Tigers" is brand new and published at the end of 2018. I have it now and is excelent, I am still reading it and is a excelent book.
(01-16-2019, 08:14 PM)Wolverine Wrote: The fact that Mr Karanth (and Mr Chundawat) has not witnessed personaly a tiger attacked by dholes doesn't mean that such an events have never happened. Such a statement from his side will be a sign a high self esteem and a basically ridiculous. In order to make general conclusions about tiger-dhole relations we need to collect all information in the last 2 centuries from hunters, local people and scientists. Blaming Kenneth Anderson, a man who spent his entire life in the the Indian jungles Mr Karanth became himself vulnerable for accusations. While highly talented stories of Anderson will be read even after century, frankly speaking Karanth texts are one of the most boring and clumsy scientific texts I have ever try to read.
Zoological survey of India, tiger injured by dholes in Kanha, 1963
*This image is copyright of its original author
Dr Karanth is a lead expert on tigers ecology and conservation and also other predators in India, his credit is much bigger than that of Kenneth Anderson. I support Karanth on this, the same with Dr Chundawat, they actually have seen interations between tigers, leopards and dholes and they have the proofs of that. The fact is that the tiger do dominate this interactions, dholes can harash the tiger but they do not attack them for predation, tigers do and all the interactions reported by them and other naturalits in the wild support they point of view.
Also, other point regarding what the simple observation shows and what the deep study shows: simple observation shows that leopards run away from dholes, but deeper investigation shows that leopards DO HUNT and eat dholes as there are evidence in the scats, this is something that simple observation do not show.
The note of H. Khajuria do not state the age, health state of the tiger or even worst, IF it was a real tiger because they don't saw it, they only hear it. I am NOT saying that local people is not reliable, but some times a good "story" may slip the filters. Even then, the article at the page 449 do not say anything regarding the outcome of the fight, it only says that they happen.
Crazily agreed. I saw you liked my theory on why hunters would have made up those stories. I did actually have a talk with Dr. Kamler, a Canid expert who finds the old stories to be plausible, (obviously I don't agree with him). But he did tell me that Dholes and other wild canids would rather be in large packs so they can effectively defend their territories from other big packs. Saying that he ended up practically giftwrapping a new argument, since that's the case, then they will need all the adult pack members to guard the hunting grounds, and if they attacked a tiger and let's say, a dozen were killed, then the pack would become more vulnerable to being overpowered by a larger pack. So in the end, people like Karanth are correct, there really is no advantage to losing many pack members in combat.
02-12-2019, 05:54 AM( This post was last modified: 02-12-2019, 06:07 AM by Wolverine )
(02-12-2019, 01:59 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(02-09-2019, 04:44 AM)peter Wrote: KAILASH SANKHALA ON TIGERS AND DHOLES
a - Introduction
In 1977, 'Tiger! - The Story of the Indian Tiger' was published. I bought it a few years later. A good one, I think.
Sankhala was born in Jodhpur (Rajahstan), on the fringe of the desert. Rajahstan is derived from Registhan, which means 'land of sand'. About half of Rajahstan is part of the Thar desert. His father was a forest ranger. The area he worked in, the Aravali Hills, was famous for sloth bears and leopards. Many years later, he was appointed Director of the Jodhpur zoo.
Living in the forest in primitive conditions for extended periods of time and frequent moves from one area to another have disadvantages, especially for children. According to Sankhala, children of foresters never learn to compete in life. Poverty (forest officers do not earn a lot of money) also has consequences. Sankhala's parents had four children, of which only one could go to college. Sankhala was the lucky one.
At college, he joined an expedition to cross the Thar Desert in the hottest month (May) as a botanist and photographer. Although the expedition didn't result in a lot of credit at college, it put him in head of the queue for selection to the Forest Service. This was quite something, as appointments in those days were given to the 'chosen few'. This was in the days Maharajahs still had quite a bit of influence.
After college, Sankhala joined the Indian Forest College at Dehra Dun:
" ... I have never regretted my time in the Forest Service, with it's fine century-old tradition of conservation. This training, augmented at intervals by short courses on ecology and park administration both in India and the USA, made me a purist. The unlimited opportunities of studying nature ... I only got as a forester. And above all I was able to live with tigers in the wild for days and nights on end, often in full presence of each other's presence but probably even more often in ignorance of it ... " (pp. 15).
His first posting (in April 1953) was in Bundi, a former princely State. Later, he took charge of Khaiwara, a small forest in the south-west of Udaipur. Four months later, he was in charge of a Bharatpur forest division. This posting in particular affected his outlook and career. Between 1965-1970, he was Director of the Delhi Zoo. In 1970, he was awarded the Jawarhalal Nehru Fellowship. This enabled him to increase his knowledge on Indian wildlife.
For a period of two years, Sariska and Ranthambore (in Rajahstan) were his study areas. He also studied tigers in Kanha National Park in Madhya Pradesh in 1971. This was the park selected by George Schaller in 1964-1965:
" ... I found that the information he had collected was mostly from one family of conditioned tigers, which had been provided with baits for more than one-and-a-half years. The group only included one male and was confined to a small area of 10-15 sq km. Vital aspects such as reproduction and the behaviour of a tigress and her infant cubs had not been studied in depth. Schaller's work was valuable in being the first ever to be fully recorded in the field, but it was insufficient to justify wider application. At that time the real facts about tigers' distribution, numbers and the conditions under which they were surviving in other parts of the country were not known ... " (pp. 18).
The first part of 'Tiger! - The Story of the Indian Tiger' is based on what he saw in Bundi, Khaiwara, Udaipur, Sariska, Ranthambore and Kanha in the period 1953-1972. In the second part, the focus is on the relation between tigers and humans. One chapter in this part is about the famous white tigers of Rewa. If you want to know a bit more about white tigers, I recommend Sankhala's book:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
b - On tiger 'Jim'
In the fifties and sixties of the previous century, killing tigresses and collecting their cubs was a flourishing business in India. The cubs fetched $ 1.000,00 a piece in the foreign market. Sankhala proposed to introduce a system of providing a certificate of origin for the export of tiger cubs during the fifth session of the Indian Board for Wildlife in 1965. After his proposal had been accepted, the trade in tiger cubs collapsed.
In spite of that, tigresses with cubs were still shot or poisoned quite often. One day, the Delhi Zoo, headed by Kailash Sankhala in the period 1965-1970, got a cub from Kanha National Park. Although suffering from gastro-enteritis, the cub made it. Jim, as he was named by the local politician who got the cub from villagers, was adopted by the Sankhala family. When he was about two years of age, he was moved to the Delhi Zoo.
Sankhala's first attempt to introduce 'Jim' to a tigress with a similar background from the Dehra Dun forests ('Rosy') failed. A fight erupted. Tigers raised by humans respond different than tigers raised by tigresses. They need more time to adapt to tiger society.
Sankhala recorded lengths and weights of captive tigers in the Delhi Zoo. These records showed that white tigers often were longer, taller and heavier than others. A white male tiger at the Delhi Zoo ('Raja') was 100 cm. at the shoulder while standing. Male tiger 'Suraj', a normal-coloured tiger, was 90 cm.
Compared to some of the tigers discussed in this thread, tiger 'Jim' was moderate in size. His standing height was 93 cm. at the shoulder and his total length (most probably measured 'over curves') was 282 cm. His weight was 426 pounds (192 kg.).
The bond they had never was completely lost: " ... He and I do not meet as we used to do, though when I go to see him he will hold my hand in his mouth to remind me of the old days ... " (pp. 171). Here's a nice photograph of both:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
c - On dholes
When studying tigers in Kanha National Park in 1971-1972, he noticed they were difficult to find when wild dogs were around. Sankhala thought the animosity created by wild dogs reduced the chances for leopards and tigers.
In Kanha, he saw a cheetal doe wounded by a pack of 18 wild dogs entering a compound. In the evergreen forests of the Western Ghats, Sankhala saw a pack of 21 wild dogs chase a sambar fawn into a deep channel, where she was killed.
In Sankhala's opinion, wild dogs do not fear other predators. At times, they will even chase a tiger from its kill or send it up a tree:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Some of us consider a lot of old stories about tigers and dholes as exaggerated interpretations of reports close to hearsay. There are no recent reports about tigers harrassed or wounded by dholes, they say. There are, however, reliable reports about dholes chased, killed and eaten by tigers.
True.
That, however, doesn't mean that all old stories about tigers and dholes are unreliable. It also doesn't mean that dholes can't be dangerous for cubs, youngsters and incapacitated individuals today:
Sankhala saw a tiger crossing a river between Rajahstan and Madhya Pradesh. A mugger met the tiger halfway. Here's the rest of the story:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
e - Tigers and pythons
In some time, I will discuss a few books that have reliable accounts of severe struggles between tigers and pythons. Here's two stories from Sankahla's book:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
f - Conclusion
The natural world is quite something. Predators in particular as special to many. Not a few consider big cats as the culmination of evolution. Although an adult lion, tiger, jaguar or leopard is impressive no matter what, many forget that it takes time to get there undamaged. A lot of time.
In the first months, cubs of solitary big cats often are on their own for many hours, even days. When discovered by other predators, they wouldn't stand a chance. This is without floods, thunder storms, heat waves, angry villagers and too many diseases to even start counting.
When they survive the first year, they learn what it means to be a predator eating meat only. Most of the animals they hunt, can be dangerous. This is why many of them are disabled by mom when they start hunting. When they, after a year or so, survive hunting school and graduate, they are kicked out.
The period between adolescence and adulthood is as dangerous as the first months, if not more so. Homeless and on the move all the time, they need to avoid mistakes of any kind. The reason is any mistake could be their last. Every hunt is concluded by a life and death struggle with an animal not seldom able to hurt or even kill a big cat. And they most definitely will given half a chance.
Although some say that about half of all tiger cubs reach adulthood, others think that estimate is way too optimistic. Talking severe selection here.
Adult wild big cats, first of all and foremost, are survivors. They didn't get there by attacking animals able to kill them at every opportunity, but by thinking and learning. Trial and error. Male lions need to learn how to interact the hard way from the start, but solitary big cats often are selective and wary. As careful as it gets. They just don't have another option, as an injury can result in starvation and death. Solitary cats need to be careful all the time all their life. Anyone who says a wild big cat is a 'coward', for this reason, is a total nitwit.
When big cats reach adulthood and a territory, they graduated. With honour and then some. This means that every discussion on intelligence is a result of a total lack of understanding. And respect. Respect they perhaps deserve more than anyone.
Adult tigers, on account of their size and power, do not fear wild dogs. But wild dogs are great hunters and they are truly wild. They can't be 'tamed' and are known for their determination and courage. Their nickname, mad dog, is a result of their courage and their behavior, which can be unpredictable at times. Every now and then, they do something that surprises all. In times of need, they have been known to chase even tigers. When a big cat runs, he will be attacked in the way they attack a deer. A single dog is unable to seriously injure a tiger, but a pack can hurt any tiger if they decide to go all out. A suicide mission, no?
I've been in the famous zoo in the eastern part of Berlin on a cloudy and gloomy day. After seeing the big cats, we visited the wild dogs. Apart from us, there were no visitors. We were circling the enclosure, but didn't see anything. Then one of the dogs was right behind us. One yard at most. When we turned, they came from all directions. Small, they were, but they were fully alert and it wasn't a game. Did it have an effect? We had seen an Amur tigress with quite large cubs known for her temper. Her demonstration was impressive, but she was behind bars wasn't she. A good show, it was. After the dogs had talked to us, however, my companions said it was time to go. They were intimidated. By animals known to avoid humans anywhere.
Would these mad dogs consider a suicide attack in some conditions? No question, I concluded. But that's just an opinion.
Kailash Sankhala - a side note:
I also have his book, but I almoust never use it, why? well because his conclutions are incorrect most of the time.
It is really disturbing and even silly how Sankhala discredit the studies of the "westerns" like Schaller and Seidensticker, and is not only the small paragraph that you posted, there are several times when he critizice the methods and findings of the "westerns" (including the FACT that tigers use the olfactory sense for comunication, for God's sake!!!). In fact, I know that he is part of why the mentality on conservation of tigers by the authorities in India is still so slow and even atavic, after all he was the one that stoped the first aproach between the Smithsonian Institute and the Indian Goverment. At the end, we know that the Smithsonian experts went to Nepal and it took several years since 1960 and until 1990 to start a real scientific study of tigers in India using modern technology (Dr Karanth in Nagarahole).
Sankhala's book is confusing and even dangerous to use it, it sale very weird ideas about the tiger behavior and I can even say that those same ideas were the one's presented by the chiefs of the "Project Tiger" when the Sariska tiger dissapeared. In fact, the same stupid ideas that tigers are not territorial and that they "migrate to the mountains", that were used to justify the dissaperance of tigers in Panna and Sariska by the people of the Project Tiger, were first stablished by Shankala. The conclusions about the territoriality of tigers in Ranthambore are completelly different from those of the longer and more accurate observations of the great Valmik Thapar. IF you read Thapar, Schaller, Sunquist and Chundawat, and latter you read Sankhala, is like if they are talking of two completelly different animals!
For this, and other reasons I don't believe that Sankhala's book is a good source on tiger behaviour, altough some information about reproduction and feeding intake from his captive tigers was quoted by Dr Sunquist, but just that. In fact, his recalcitrant and highly burocratic point of view infected the Project Tiger so strongly that even in modern times they continue ignoring the modern results on tiger ecology based in scientific develpment. In fact Dr Karanth state that: "We both continue to strongly belive that the scientific process of per review and publication in high-quality journals should guide the choice of appropiate methods for monitoring tigers and their prey. Therefore, we are somewhat dismayed that, in spite of availability of superior methods, tiger conservation practitioners are sometimes slow to adopt them or even use demostrably flawed or obsolete methodologies. We believe this is largely because of intellectual inertia, rather than resource constraints, given the current levels of investments. Unfortunately, we can offer no methodological cure for this problem." (Karanth & Nichols, 2017 - Preface). If you ask me when this flawed metholodolgies started, I can tell you that part of that started with Sankhala, that is for sure.
Despite his good intentions and the fact that tigers are still in decent numbres in India because of the initial efforst when he was included, Sankhala point of view on tigers affected its conservation at future level, as India have many small pockets of not interconnected tiger habitat, that altough is good to save it for the short term, it is very problematic for the survival of the tiger in the future. I think that if some one should have called "The Tiger Man of India", that should be the great Valmik Thapar, which not only made good personal investigations with national naturalists, but also blended succesfully the studies of those "westerns" scientists which methodologies, at the end, are the ones that are also saving tigers in Nepal, Russia and Thailand, despite its smallest territory or lower prey base.
On the Dhole issue:
About the tiger and dhole interactions, it is interesting to see that he don't saw any fight or type of conflict. In fact he concluded that the tigers leave the area because the dogs put all the prey in the area in alert status, which is exactly what the tiger don't want (tigers prey by ambush, and when a serial of unsuccesfull attempts but the prey on alert, the tiger move from the area). Also is interestingly that when he says that tigers can killed and eated by dholes, he relay in the "early-twentieth-century paintings" (are he serious?) and by "recent" observations (which?).
Again, Sankhala do not present direct evidence of dhole predation on tiger, nor even conflict, just a logical avoidance based in the fact tigers been ambush predators can hunt with high alarmed prey.
Valmik Thapar in his great book "Tiger the ultimate guide" also quote four events of tiger and dholes (page 136 - 137), one of them is the report of Kenneth Anderson, the second is one of W. Connell (JBNHS IN 1944) where he said that a tiger (no sex or age) was attacked by a pack of 22 dholes, at the end the tiger was killed and eat but he killed 12 of them (half of the pack for one meal?). The third event is reported by Colonel Kesri Singh which in the book "The Tiger of Rajasthan" (1959) describes an evening when a tiger feed on a sambar for nearly 30 minutes but when he listened the cries of the dholes, the tiger started been anxious and uncomfortable but state in its ground. At the end the dholes arrived and surronded him, the tiger growled and the dogs whimpered, the tiger striked a couple of the dogs but at the end decided to flee, the dogs stay there and eat the sambar, they did not followed the tiger, again no age or sex was described and this sounds more like a young tiger, but is my speculation. The forth event is quoted from the BBC television series "Land of the Tiger" and includes a footage shot in Kanha National Park in 1997 when a tigress chase away a pack of dholes and appopriate the kill. These four events are the only thing that Thapar mention about the tiger-dhole conflict.
I want to make clear that Dr Karanth, nor I, are saying that the report of Kenneth Anderson is fake, he only says that maybe somewhat exagerated and the fact that there is no case of dholes attacking (actually attacking) adult tigers during more than 50 years of scientific study, put some doubts to the reputation that the dhole have in India. It seems that, following Mazák, an adult healty tiger is out of the predation range of any dhole pack, but a young and unexperiance tiger, or a week, injured or very ill one can be killed by a large dhole group, not without heavy losses. But this is a thing of the past now.
Guate wrote: " there is no case of dholes attacking (actually attacking) adult tigers during more than 50 years of scientific study"
O, yes we have a scientific report from 1963 from the respectful Scientific Survey of India, Kanha NP, tiger attacked and injured by dholes:
(02-09-2019, 04:44 AM)peter Wrote: KAILASH SANKHALA ON TIGERS AND DHOLES
a - Introduction
In 1977, 'Tiger! - The Story of the Indian Tiger' was published. I bought it a few years later. A good one, I think.
Sankhala was born in Jodhpur (Rajahstan), on the fringe of the desert. Rajahstan is derived from Registhan, which means 'land of sand'. About half of Rajahstan is part of the Thar desert. His father was a forest ranger. The area he worked in, the Aravali Hills, was famous for sloth bears and leopards. Many years later, he was appointed Director of the Jodhpur zoo.
Living in the forest in primitive conditions for extended periods of time and frequent moves from one area to another have disadvantages, especially for children. According to Sankhala, children of foresters never learn to compete in life. Poverty (forest officers do not earn a lot of money) also has consequences. Sankhala's parents had four children, of which only one could go to college. Sankhala was the lucky one.
At college, he joined an expedition to cross the Thar Desert in the hottest month (May) as a botanist and photographer. Although the expedition didn't result in a lot of credit at college, it put him in head of the queue for selection to the Forest Service. This was quite something, as appointments in those days were given to the 'chosen few'. This was in the days Maharajahs still had quite a bit of influence.
After college, Sankhala joined the Indian Forest College at Dehra Dun:
" ... I have never regretted my time in the Forest Service, with it's fine century-old tradition of conservation. This training, augmented at intervals by short courses on ecology and park administration both in India and the USA, made me a purist. The unlimited opportunities of studying nature ... I only got as a forester. And above all I was able to live with tigers in the wild for days and nights on end, often in full presence of each other's presence but probably even more often in ignorance of it ... " (pp. 15).
His first posting (in April 1953) was in Bundi, a former princely State. Later, he took charge of Khaiwara, a small forest in the south-west of Udaipur. Four months later, he was in charge of a Bharatpur forest division. This posting in particular affected his outlook and career. Between 1965-1970, he was Director of the Delhi Zoo. In 1970, he was awarded the Jawarhalal Nehru Fellowship. This enabled him to increase his knowledge on Indian wildlife.
For a period of two years, Sariska and Ranthambore (in Rajahstan) were his study areas. He also studied tigers in Kanha National Park in Madhya Pradesh in 1971. This was the park selected by George Schaller in 1964-1965:
" ... I found that the information he had collected was mostly from one family of conditioned tigers, which had been provided with baits for more than one-and-a-half years. The group only included one male and was confined to a small area of 10-15 sq km. Vital aspects such as reproduction and the behaviour of a tigress and her infant cubs had not been studied in depth. Schaller's work was valuable in being the first ever to be fully recorded in the field, but it was insufficient to justify wider application. At that time the real facts about tigers' distribution, numbers and the conditions under which they were surviving in other parts of the country were not known ... " (pp. 18).
The first part of 'Tiger! - The Story of the Indian Tiger' is based on what he saw in Bundi, Khaiwara, Udaipur, Sariska, Ranthambore and Kanha in the period 1953-1972. In the second part, the focus is on the relation between tigers and humans. One chapter in this part is about the famous white tigers of Rewa. If you want to know a bit more about white tigers, I recommend Sankhala's book:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
b - On tiger 'Jim'
In the fifties and sixties of the previous century, killing tigresses and collecting their cubs was a flourishing business in India. The cubs fetched $ 1.000,00 a piece in the foreign market. Sankhala proposed to introduce a system of providing a certificate of origin for the export of tiger cubs during the fifth session of the Indian Board for Wildlife in 1965. After his proposal had been accepted, the trade in tiger cubs collapsed.
In spite of that, tigresses with cubs were still shot or poisoned quite often. One day, the Delhi Zoo, headed by Kailash Sankhala in the period 1965-1970, got a cub from Kanha National Park. Although suffering from gastro-enteritis, the cub made it. Jim, as he was named by the local politician who got the cub from villagers, was adopted by the Sankhala family. When he was about two years of age, he was moved to the Delhi Zoo.
Sankhala's first attempt to introduce 'Jim' to a tigress with a similar background from the Dehra Dun forests ('Rosy') failed. A fight erupted. Tigers raised by humans respond different than tigers raised by tigresses. They need more time to adapt to tiger society.
Sankhala recorded lengths and weights of captive tigers in the Delhi Zoo. These records showed that white tigers often were longer, taller and heavier than others. A white male tiger at the Delhi Zoo ('Raja') was 100 cm. at the shoulder while standing. Male tiger 'Suraj', a normal-coloured tiger, was 90 cm.
Compared to some of the tigers discussed in this thread, tiger 'Jim' was moderate in size. His standing height was 93 cm. at the shoulder and his total length (most probably measured 'over curves') was 282 cm. His weight was 426 pounds (192 kg.).
The bond they had never was completely lost: " ... He and I do not meet as we used to do, though when I go to see him he will hold my hand in his mouth to remind me of the old days ... " (pp. 171). Here's a nice photograph of both:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
c - On dholes
When studying tigers in Kanha National Park in 1971-1972, he noticed they were difficult to find when wild dogs were around. Sankhala thought the animosity created by wild dogs reduced the chances for leopards and tigers.
In Kanha, he saw a cheetal doe wounded by a pack of 18 wild dogs entering a compound. In the evergreen forests of the Western Ghats, Sankhala saw a pack of 21 wild dogs chase a sambar fawn into a deep channel, where she was killed.
In Sankhala's opinion, wild dogs do not fear other predators. At times, they will even chase a tiger from its kill or send it up a tree:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Some of us consider a lot of old stories about tigers and dholes as exaggerated interpretations of reports close to hearsay. There are no recent reports about tigers harrassed or wounded by dholes, they say. There are, however, reliable reports about dholes chased, killed and eaten by tigers.
True.
That, however, doesn't mean that all old stories about tigers and dholes are unreliable. It also doesn't mean that dholes can't be dangerous for cubs, youngsters and incapacitated individuals today:
Sankhala saw a tiger crossing a river between Rajahstan and Madhya Pradesh. A mugger met the tiger halfway. Here's the rest of the story:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
e - Tigers and pythons
In some time, I will discuss a few books that have reliable accounts of severe struggles between tigers and pythons. Here's two stories from Sankahla's book:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
f - Conclusion
The natural world is quite something. Predators in particular as special to many. Not a few consider big cats as the culmination of evolution. Although an adult lion, tiger, jaguar or leopard is impressive no matter what, many forget that it takes time to get there undamaged. A lot of time.
In the first months, cubs of solitary big cats often are on their own for many hours, even days. When discovered by other predators, they wouldn't stand a chance. This is without floods, thunder storms, heat waves, angry villagers and too many diseases to even start counting.
When they survive the first year, they learn what it means to be a predator eating meat only. Most of the animals they hunt, can be dangerous. This is why many of them are disabled by mom when they start hunting. When they, after a year or so, survive hunting school and graduate, they are kicked out.
The period between adolescence and adulthood is as dangerous as the first months, if not more so. Homeless and on the move all the time, they need to avoid mistakes of any kind. The reason is any mistake could be their last. Every hunt is concluded by a life and death struggle with an animal not seldom able to hurt or even kill a big cat. And they most definitely will given half a chance.
Although some say that about half of all tiger cubs reach adulthood, others think that estimate is way too optimistic. Talking severe selection here.
Adult wild big cats, first of all and foremost, are survivors. They didn't get there by attacking animals able to kill them at every opportunity, but by thinking and learning. Trial and error. Male lions need to learn how to interact the hard way from the start, but solitary big cats often are selective and wary. As careful as it gets. They just don't have another option, as an injury can result in starvation and death. Solitary cats need to be careful all the time all their life. Anyone who says a wild big cat is a 'coward', for this reason, is a total nitwit.
When big cats reach adulthood and a territory, they graduated. With honour and then some. This means that every discussion on intelligence is a result of a total lack of understanding. And respect. Respect they perhaps deserve more than anyone.
Adult tigers, on account of their size and power, do not fear wild dogs. But wild dogs are great hunters and they are truly wild. They can't be 'tamed' and are known for their determination and courage. Their nickname, mad dog, is a result of their courage and their behavior, which can be unpredictable at times. Every now and then, they do something that surprises all. In times of need, they have been known to chase even tigers. When a big cat runs, he will be attacked in the way they attack a deer. A single dog is unable to seriously injure a tiger, but a pack can hurt any tiger if they decide to go all out. A suicide mission, no?
I've been in the famous zoo in the eastern part of Berlin on a cloudy and gloomy day. After seeing the big cats, we visited the wild dogs. Apart from us, there were no visitors. We were circling the enclosure, but didn't see anything. Then one of the dogs was right behind us. One yard at most. When we turned, they came from all directions. Small, they were, but they were fully alert and it wasn't a game. Did it have an effect? We had seen an Amur tigress with quite large cubs known for her temper. Her demonstration was impressive, but she was behind bars wasn't she. A good show, it was. After the dogs had talked to us, however, my companions said it was time to go. They were intimidated. By animals known to avoid humans anywhere.
Would these mad dogs consider a suicide attack in some conditions? No question, I concluded. But that's just an opinion.
Kailash Sankhala - a side note:
I also have his book, but I almoust never use it, why? well because his conclutions are incorrect most of the time.
It is really disturbing and even silly how Sankhala discredit the studies of the "westerns" like Schaller and Seidensticker, and is not only the small paragraph that you posted, there are several times when he critizice the methods and findings of the "westerns" (including the FACT that tigers use the olfactory sense for comunication, for God's sake!!!). In fact, I know that he is part of why the mentality on conservation of tigers by the authorities in India is still so slow and even atavic, after all he was the one that stoped the first aproach between the Smithsonian Institute and the Indian Goverment. At the end, we know that the Smithsonian experts went to Nepal and it took several years since 1960 and until 1990 to start a real scientific study of tigers in India using modern technology (Dr Karanth in Nagarahole).
Sankhala's book is confusing and even dangerous to use it, it sale very weird ideas about the tiger behavior and I can even say that those same ideas were the one's presented by the chiefs of the "Project Tiger" when the Sariska tiger dissapeared. In fact, the same stupid ideas that tigers are not territorial and that they "migrate to the mountains", that were used to justify the dissaperance of tigers in Panna and Sariska by the people of the Project Tiger, were first stablished by Shankala. The conclusions about the territoriality of tigers in Ranthambore are completelly different from those of the longer and more accurate observations of the great Valmik Thapar. IF you read Thapar, Schaller, Sunquist and Chundawat, and latter you read Sankhala, is like if they are talking of two completelly different animals!
For this, and other reasons I don't believe that Sankhala's book is a good source on tiger behaviour, altough some information about reproduction and feeding intake from his captive tigers was quoted by Dr Sunquist, but just that. In fact, his recalcitrant and highly burocratic point of view infected the Project Tiger so strongly that even in modern times they continue ignoring the modern results on tiger ecology based in scientific develpment. In fact Dr Karanth state that: "We both continue to strongly belive that the scientific process of per review and publication in high-quality journals should guide the choice of appropiate methods for monitoring tigers and their prey. Therefore, we are somewhat dismayed that, in spite of availability of superior methods, tiger conservation practitioners are sometimes slow to adopt them or even use demostrably flawed or obsolete methodologies. We believe this is largely because of intellectual inertia, rather than resource constraints, given the current levels of investments. Unfortunately, we can offer no methodological cure for this problem." (Karanth & Nichols, 2017 - Preface). If you ask me when this flawed metholodolgies started, I can tell you that part of that started with Sankhala, that is for sure.
Despite his good intentions and the fact that tigers are still in decent numbres in India because of the initial efforst when he was included, Sankhala point of view on tigers affected its conservation at future level, as India have many small pockets of not interconnected tiger habitat, that altough is good to save it for the short term, it is very problematic for the survival of the tiger in the future. I think that if some one should have called "The Tiger Man of India", that should be the great Valmik Thapar, which not only made good personal investigations with national naturalists, but also blended succesfully the studies of those "westerns" scientists which methodologies, at the end, are the ones that are also saving tigers in Nepal, Russia and Thailand, despite its smallest territory or lower prey base.
On the Dhole issue:
About the tiger and dhole interactions, it is interesting to see that he don't saw any fight or type of conflict. In fact he concluded that the tigers leave the area because the dogs put all the prey in the area in alert status, which is exactly what the tiger don't want (tigers prey by ambush, and when a serial of unsuccesfull attempts but the prey on alert, the tiger move from the area). Also is interestingly that when he says that tigers can killed and eated by dholes, he relay in the "early-twentieth-century paintings" (are he serious?) and by "recent" observations (which?).
Again, Sankhala do not present direct evidence of dhole predation on tiger, nor even conflict, just a logical avoidance based in the fact tigers been ambush predators can hunt with high alarmed prey.
Valmik Thapar in his great book "Tiger the ultimate guide" also quote four events of tiger and dholes (page 136 - 137), one of them is the report of Kenneth Anderson, the second is one of W. Connell (JBNHS IN 1944) where he said that a tiger (no sex or age) was attacked by a pack of 22 dholes, at the end the tiger was killed and eat but he killed 12 of them (half of the pack for one meal?). The third event is reported by Colonel Kesri Singh which in the book "The Tiger of Rajasthan" (1959) describes an evening when a tiger feed on a sambar for nearly 30 minutes but when he listened the cries of the dholes, the tiger started been anxious and uncomfortable but state in its ground. At the end the dholes arrived and surronded him, the tiger growled and the dogs whimpered, the tiger striked a couple of the dogs but at the end decided to flee, the dogs stay there and eat the sambar, they did not followed the tiger, again no age or sex was described and this sounds more like a young tiger, but is my speculation. The forth event is quoted from the BBC television series "Land of the Tiger" and includes a footage shot in Kanha National Park in 1997 when a tigress chase away a pack of dholes and appopriate the kill. These four events are the only thing that Thapar mention about the tiger-dhole conflict.
I want to make clear that Dr Karanth, nor I, are saying that the report of Kenneth Anderson is fake, he only says that maybe somewhat exagerated and the fact that there is no case of dholes attacking (actually attacking) adult tigers during more than 50 years of scientific study, put some doubts to the reputation that the dhole have in India. It seems that, following Mazák, an adult healty tiger is out of the predation range of any dhole pack, but a young and unexperiance tiger, or a week, injured or very ill one can be killed by a large dhole group, not without heavy losses. But this is a thing of the past now.
Guate wrote : "Sankhala's book is confusing and even dangerous to use it, it sale very weird ideas about the tiger behavior"
Guate, forgive me but I think you have not authority do judge such a remarkable scientist as Dr Kailash Shankala, an icon of "Project Tiger". While you no doubt are good poster, your background has nothing to do with biology, but more to do with business or computer sciences. If businessmen start teaching biologists and dentists start to teach nuclear physisists this is the sure way of collapse of the civillisation.
Nevertheless, I like and respect you because you sincerely love tigers and in general our views in all other topics are 99% similar if not identical.
Ok, nobody rejects the fact that in last 50 years a carcass of killed by dholes was not found. I think a topic "tiger VS dhole" should be temporary frozen by mods until more new and fresh information comes, as pointed Rishi. Otherwise wildfact will slip to civil war and finally collapse. Topic "tiger VS lions" was frozen as too dangerous, I think same have be done with "Bear VS tiger" and "Tiger VS dholes".
ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
