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BA0701 · 12-11-2024, 11:33 PM

(12-11-2024, 11:09 PM)Friarfan619 Wrote: Coincidence??

Was wondering the same thing, when I saw this, if perhaps Nkuhuma and Khanya were pushed into Kruger by the Gijimas, and if the Gijimas perceive them enough of a threat as to follow them to such lengths.

T_Ferguson · 12-11-2024, 11:37 PM

(12-11-2024, 11:33 PM)BA0701 Wrote:
(12-11-2024, 11:09 PM)Friarfan619 Wrote: Coincidence??

Was wondering the same thing, when I saw this, if perhaps Nkuhuma and Khanya were pushed into Kruger by the Gijimas, and if the Gijimas perceive them enough of a threat as to follow them to such lengths.

The big hope is that Talamati is smart enough to run, because history shows NK will.

KM600 · 8 hours ago

(12-10-2024, 10:03 PM)Mapokser Wrote: In fact Mara barely has impressive lions size-wise currently, only Orkirikoi is clearly big and muscular, and even then doesn't seem as big as Half-Tail was ( Rob the Ranger thinks so ). The Sankai have insane manes, but even the most impressive mane-wise, Seenka, was barely bigger in anything than one of his lionesses in a video from a few months ago.

Orkirikoi himself didn't seem big compared to average BrB in the vid of them together, though he was sitting and submissive, still in a similar vid older nomadic Hairy Belly looked much bigger than Nsuku Bboy so who knows.

PCM, maybe even Mantimahle, are likely bigger than all Mara lions currently despite Mara having a much bigger area and lion population.

I think this is quite harsh, I’m not even sure u know the majority of lions in Masai Mara, I certainly don’t, and if I do, mostly by names anyways not actual sightings.

Inselberg, Kaskaz, and Enkoyonai males all look very impressive from what I’ve seen. Add Chongo from Bila Shakas to that too. Oloshipa is always in great condition, Oloimina too even with that permanent limp. Kijana aswell, obviously many more.

I don’t know how they’d compare in height, nobody does, but their overall conditioning is always great. They may also not have the best manes, but I couldn’t care less about manes, they’re nowhere near as important as body size (height and bulkiness) in lions.

I also don’t like the look of manes similar to the Sankai males or crater males, a bit too long for my liking. Anyways, I actually agree about the Sankai males point, they have crazy long manes, but body wise they’ve never impressed me. From the sightings I’ve seen, they’re always on the leaner side. Obviously everyone has different preferences about what they see as impressive in lions.

sunless · 7 hours ago

(12-10-2024, 10:03 PM)Mapokser Wrote: In fact Mara barely has impressive lions size-wise currently, only Orkirikoi is clearly big and muscular, and even then doesn't seem as big as Half-Tail was ( Rob the Ranger thinks so ). The Sankai have insane manes, but even the most impressive mane-wise, Seenka, was barely bigger in anything than one of his lionesses in a video from a few months ago.

Would disagree with the "barely" (impressive size-wise) term here just look at the Bila Shakas, Inselbergs, Talibans, Kaskaz, Sankais, Orpadan (Oloshipa), Orkirikoi, Mrefu, Kissingers and many more that I cannot remember, almost if not all lions in the Mara including the Conservancies has a good build some into the size wise like the lions that I listed or the taller side but still have the size like Lorkulup, Kijana, etc.

RookiePundit · 5 hours ago

(8 hours ago)KM600 Wrote:
(12-10-2024, 10:03 PM)Mapokser Wrote: In fact Mara barely has impressive lions size-wise currently, only Orkirikoi is clearly big and muscular, and even then doesn't seem as big as Half-Tail was ( Rob the Ranger thinks so ). The Sankai have insane manes, but even the most impressive mane-wise, Seenka, was barely bigger in anything than one of his lionesses in a video from a few months ago.

Orkirikoi himself didn't seem big compared to average BrB in the vid of them together, though he was sitting and submissive, still in a similar vid older nomadic Hairy Belly looked much bigger than Nsuku Bboy so who knows.

PCM, maybe even Mantimahle, are likely bigger than all Mara lions currently despite Mara having a much bigger area and lion population.

I think this is quite harsh, I’m not even sure u know the majority of lions in Masai Mara, I certainly don’t, and if I do, mostly by names anyways not actual sightings.

Inselberg, Kaskaz, and Enkoyonai males all look very impressive from what I’ve seen. Add Chongo from Bila Shakas to that too. Oloshipa is always in great condition, Oloimina too even with that permanent limp. Kijana aswell, obviously many more.

I don’t know how they’d compare in height, nobody does, but their overall conditioning is always great. They may also not have the best manes, but I couldn’t care less about manes, they’re nowhere near as important as body size (height and bulkiness) in lions.

I also don’t like the look of manes similar to the Sankai males or crater males, a bit too long for my liking. Anyways, I actually agree about the Sankai males point, they have crazy long manes, but body wise they’ve never impressed me. From the sightings I’ve seen, they’re always on the leaner side. Obviously everyone has different preferences about what they see as impressive in lions.

Apples and oranges. Mara keep their picked "stars" in good condition through veterinary intervention for profit. Can't compare that with actual wild lions, especially in TB infested Kruger.

KM600 · 5 hours ago

KM600 · 5 hours ago

(5 hours ago)RookiePundit Wrote:
(8 hours ago)KM600 Wrote:
(12-10-2024, 10:03 PM)Mapokser Wrote: In fact Mara barely has impressive lions size-wise currently, only Orkirikoi is clearly big and muscular, and even then doesn't seem as big as Half-Tail was ( Rob the Ranger thinks so ). The Sankai have insane manes, but even the most impressive mane-wise, Seenka, was barely bigger in anything than one of his lionesses in a video from a few months ago.

Orkirikoi himself didn't seem big compared to average BrB in the vid of them together, though he was sitting and submissive, still in a similar vid older nomadic Hairy Belly looked much bigger than Nsuku Bboy so who knows.

PCM, maybe even Mantimahle, are likely bigger than all Mara lions currently despite Mara having a much bigger area and lion population.

I think this is quite harsh, I’m not even sure u know the majority of lions in Masai Mara, I certainly don’t, and if I do, mostly by names anyways not actual sightings.

Inselberg, Kaskaz, and Enkoyonai males all look very impressive from what I’ve seen. Add Chongo from Bila Shakas to that too. Oloshipa is always in great condition, Oloimina too even with that permanent limp. Kijana aswell, obviously many more.

I don’t know how they’d compare in height, nobody does, but their overall conditioning is always great. They may also not have the best manes, but I couldn’t care less about manes, they’re nowhere near as important as body size (height and bulkiness) in lions.

I also don’t like the look of manes similar to the Sankai males or crater males, a bit too long for my liking. Anyways, I actually agree about the Sankai males point, they have crazy long manes, but body wise they’ve never impressed me. From the sightings I’ve seen, they’re always on the leaner side. Obviously everyone has different preferences about what they see as impressive in lions.

Apples and oranges. Mara keep their picked "stars" in good condition through veterinary intervention for profit. Can't compare that with actual wild lions, especially in TB infested Kruger.

Fair point, but that wouldn’t change their condition, it would simply just change whether they’d be dead already or still alive. I can’t speak about the others I mentioned, but pretty sure Kaskaz males have had no vet intervention. I never said they were any more impressive than Sabi Sands lions either, I was just downplaying the fact that majority of them weren’t impressive in the first place.

sik94 · 5 hours ago

(5 hours ago)RookiePundit Wrote: Apples and oranges. Mara keep their picked "stars" in good condition through veterinary intervention for profit. Can't compare that with actual wild lions, especially in TB infested Kruger.

They only intervene when animals are injured and save-able, they aren't selecting a few animals and keeping them fed or giving them steroids JUST because they are their "stars". The lions in the Mara are absolutely just as wild as the lions in the Kruger, just because the Mara has less stringent requirements on when they decide to intervene with veterinary aid than the Kruger doesn't mean they are in a captive or less forgiving environment. The Mara and Serengeti has around 5% infection rate of TB for lions and the Kruger has around 33-54% from the numbers I see on google. This might be why a lot more of the Mara lions have those big muscular builds while you don't see those super bulky builds as much in the Kruger, that doesn't mean they aren't wild.

Mapokser · 4 hours ago

@KM600 it's not "harsh", size doesn't matter for these lions, being small or big doesn't matter, they might not even realize any size difference unless they are right next to each other.

It's just an objective observation, same way how in pre-PCM Sabi Sands, most lions weren't big, you had old Nhenha as one of the most mentioned as being the biggest, a guy while certainly not small, even in old age, wasn't one of the largest we've seen in the region. Around the same time Mara had very big males like Olerai and Half-Tail, it's just normal stuff, at some point in time a region will have large lions, then smaller lions in the next generation, and so on, we can go further back to Notch's time and see how all of them were very large, especially Notch II and then Caesar who was a monster.

Chongo isn't small, but clearly not Half-Tail level ( and they were seen together ). Oloshipa and all BrB are average, just look at them with their females. Rob has good experience with them and claims the same.

Mara lions are almost always in top condition, with full bellies as well, and have thicker mane than Kruger lions on average, but weights from Eastern African lions as well as statements by guides who spent years in both areas ( like Rob ) claims they are basically the same size body-wise. And keep in mind that the biggest Sabi Sands lions Rob saw were the Majingilane who weren't even some of the biggest around their own era.

I nevert thought Enkoyanai males were particularly impressive and admittedly aren't very familiar with Inselberg or Kaskaz males, but it reinforces my point because I've never seen anyone claim they are the largest in the area or anything like that.

Sankai males not only aren't bulky but thet aren't tall either, 1/2 their father, Olerai, was very impressive though. As for mane, I've nothing against big manes, quite the opposite, Seenka's mane looks insane IMO.

Rance56 · 4 hours ago

im new to following lions, maybe been following along for about 2 years, an mainly watching youtube videos. recently found this site. just curious if any of yall would be willing to post a list of your opinion on like the top 5-10 greatest fighters of all time regardless of location. if i was building a coalition of lets say 6 for lion warfare, it would be makhulu, zig zag mbiri, LK115, sekekama, mr t, and kinky tail.

Tr1x24 · 4 hours ago

(5 hours ago)sik94 Wrote: The Mara and Serengeti has around 5% infection rate of TB for lions and the Kruger has around 33-54% from the numbers I see on google. This might be why a lot more of the Mara lions have those big muscular builds while you don't see those super bulky builds as much in the Kruger, that doesn't mean they aren't wild.

I think the same.

Obviously we dont know how they actually compare in size, but to me, on average, Mara lions look bigger, especially on muscular/bulk spectrum.

Kruger has more diseases than Mara, but climate, diet and ofc genetics have their role aswell.

Thats on average, but "top" specimens of Kruger and Mara are prob around same sizes, you can find "monster" looking specimens on both sides.

Mapokser · 3 hours ago

(7 hours ago)sunless Wrote:
(12-10-2024, 10:03 PM)Mapokser Wrote: In fact Mara barely has impressive lions size-wise currently, only Orkirikoi is clearly big and muscular, and even then doesn't seem as big as Half-Tail was ( Rob the Ranger thinks so ). The Sankai have insane manes, but even the most impressive mane-wise, Seenka, was barely bigger in anything than one of his lionesses in a video from a few months ago.
Would disagree with the "barely" (impressive size-wise) term here just look at the Bila Shakas, Inselbergs, Talibans, Kaskaz, Sankais, Orpadan (Oloshipa), Orkirikoi, Mrefu, Kissingers and many more that I cannot remember, almost if not all lions in the Mara including the Conservancies has a good build some into the size wise like the lions that I listed or the taller side but still have the size like Lorkulup, Kijana, etc.

You make me more skeptical when you mention the Sankai as an example of impressive males, size-wise, here the bigger-mane one, Seenka:

*This image is copyright of its original author

To reinforce my point, from a ranger with many many years in both Mara and Kruger, who doesn't even saw the largest Sabi Sands lions ( biggest he saw was Majingilane ):

*This image is copyright of its original author

So again, it's not like I'm saying Mara lions are smaller, I'm of the opinion that any big healthy population of african lions will average the same thing, with obvious sometimes having larger or smaller lions. Currently I don't think Mara has many very big males, but this is just by chance, previous generation had larger males, next one may as well, same with Sabi Sands or anywhere else.

There was also a photographer, I forgot his name, Pieter something, he also said there wasn't a difference in size between Mara or Kruger males.

sunless · 3 hours ago

(3 hours ago)Mapokser Wrote:
(7 hours ago)sunless Wrote:
(12-10-2024, 10:03 PM)Mapokser Wrote: In fact Mara barely has impressive lions size-wise currently, only Orkirikoi is clearly big and muscular, and even then doesn't seem as big as Half-Tail was ( Rob the Ranger thinks so ). The Sankai have insane manes, but even the most impressive mane-wise, Seenka, was barely bigger in anything than one of his lionesses in a video from a few months ago.
Would disagree with the "barely" (impressive size-wise) term here just look at the Bila Shakas, Inselbergs, Talibans, Kaskaz, Sankais, Orpadan (Oloshipa), Orkirikoi, Mrefu, Kissingers and many more that I cannot remember, almost if not all lions in the Mara including the Conservancies has a good build some into the size wise like the lions that I listed or the taller side but still have the size like Lorkulup, Kijana, etc.

You make me more skeptical when you mention the Sankai as an example of impressive males, size-wise, here the bigger-mane one, Seenka:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

To reinforce my point, from a ranger with many many years in both Mara and Kruger, who doesn't even saw the largest Sabi Sands lions ( biggest he saw was Majingilane ):

*This image is copyright of its original author

So again, it's not like I'm saying Mara lions are smaller, I'm of the opinion that any big healthy population of african lions will average the same thing, with obvious sometimes having larger or smaller lions. Currently I don't think Mara has many very big males, but this is just by chance, previous generation had larger males, next one may as well, same with Sabi Sands or anywhere else.

There was also a photographer, I forgot his name, Pieter something, he also said there wasn't a difference in size between Mara or Kruger males.

Well, I could not care less whose lion is bigger if it is Mara or Kruger or Botswana/Delta or Kalahari lions just want them to have a good life but saying Mara lions has "barely impressive lion size wise currently" is just not true.

BA0701 · 2 hours ago

(4 hours ago)Rance56 Wrote: im new to following lions, maybe been following along for about 2 years, an mainly watching youtube videos. recently found this site. just curious if any of yall would be willing to post a list of your opinion on like the top 5-10 greatest fighters of all time regardless of location. if i was building a coalition of lets say 6 for lion warfare, it would be makhulu, zig zag mbiri, LK115, sekekama, mr t, and kinky tail.

I'd say that is a pretty impressive list, you've made there. Though, while Scar Mbiri is an absolute beast, his brother, Shaka, is equally tough, and may have even seen more combat over the years.

sunless · 2 hours ago

(2 hours ago)BA0701 Wrote:
(4 hours ago)Rance56 Wrote: im new to following lions, maybe been following along for about 2 years, an mainly watching youtube videos. recently found this site. just curious if any of yall would be willing to post a list of your opinion on like the top 5-10 greatest fighters of all time regardless of location. if i was building a coalition of lets say 6 for lion warfare, it would be makhulu, zig zag mbiri, LK115, sekekama, mr t, and kinky tail.

I'd say that is a pretty impressive list, you've made there. Though, while Scar Mbiri is an absolute beast, his brother, Shaka, is equally tough, and may have even seen more combat over the years.

Would really make you wonder how those two (Mbiri Males) is still kicking and not just only kicking but kicking strong as they have been with so many fights.

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