Modern Weights and Measurements of Wild Lions

[woshiniya]

(11-28-2022, 10:59 PM)woshiniy Wrote:

(10-07-2022, 06:42 PM)Jerricson Wrote: @Pckts Will try

What's the story?the lion was Dinokeng. And it said that it was weight 265kg in 3 months this year. And it weight over 300kg by a scale in 2017, a lion fan get that from a lion  doctor,I hope someone confirm this.

It's the lion Reply

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[Pckts]

(11-28-2022, 11:19 PM)woshiniya Wrote:

(11-28-2022, 10:59 PM)woshiniy Wrote:

(10-07-2022, 06:42 PM)Jerricson Wrote: @Pckts Will try

What's the story?the lion was Dinokeng. And it said that it was weight 265kg in 3 months this year. And it weight over 300kg by a scale in 2017, a lion fan get that from a lion  doctor,I hope someone confirm this.

It's the lion

Definitely would want some more verifiable information first.
 Like from who exactly?
Protocol?
Program.. etc.


The Lion is obviously fully gorged and there's no way that he's 221cm HBL in a straight line, I even highly doubt he could be close to that over the curves. Reply

[Pckts]

(11-25-2022, 08:29 AM)Mapokser Wrote:

(11-01-2022, 07:00 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(10-31-2022, 11:59 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Why is a vet needed? Rob was there and saw them being weighed multiple times with his own eyes. Or are you saying he's lying? If so why would he lie but not the vet?

By above 215kg I'm talking about empty males since Mapogos weighed 230kg with stomach content and all other mentioned were bigger or even much bigger than them.

There's a huge variation of size in the SS lions, you can see a 3yo male fighting a much smaller adult male in the video for reference. Since more than 30 years ago there's no fence between SS, the KNP and the other reserves of the Greater KNP, lions come and go from the KNP and Manyeleti, or even all down the Timbavati, crossing the Manyeleti and entering SS from the north.

Today we have the coalition of 4, the Ndzengas who are average or below average, even said ( I don't remember now if by ranger, guide or photographer ) to be the smallest lions they've seen and were impressed by how small they are. They came from Kruger. But at the same time we have the 2 PCM fathered by KNP males in a pride at the border, they're much bigger than the Timbavati male the Ndzengas ousted who was already much larger than the Ndzengas themselves.

I haven’t seen what Rob said so I’m not saying anything on that regard. What am I saying is that a guide who “allegedly” witnessed the capture is very different from the person who actually took the alleged weights. 
Lastly there isn’t a “huge variation” it’s just normal size ranges. There’s no location with any real data base that doesn’t show the same variation. But when talking about prime males generally it’s going to be the range of 180kg to 225kg like Rob has said as well. 
This idea that the Majingalanes dwarfed the Mapogos is  nonsense. You see Kinky tail and T compared to them and theres absolutely no way to determine any size difference.

This is what Rob says:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

And comparison of Mapogos with other males ( keep in mind he never saw Matimbas or Birminghams and is just going by "damn they are big" from what he heard other lodges say, but he saw all others for years as they were dominant males in the West where he worked ):

*This image is copyright of its original author

I never said Majingilanes dwarfed Mr.T and KT, though there is a way to know who's bigger, we have pictures of 5yo 5th Majingilane's skull with prime KT's skull, the Majingilane was clearly bigger although he had smaller canines:

*This image is copyright of its original author

As Rob said it's quite clear that all Majingilanes > Selati #1 > Mapogos who with stomach content weighed 230kg.

Majingilane's dwarfing Mapogos aside ( this is a strong word that probably doesn't apply here ), Matimbas definitely, 100%, did, as they dwarfed the Majingilane themselves. Everybody in the Sabi Sands, even Londolozi Lodge who were Majingilane lovers, and their guests, stated Matimbas were much bigger than Majins, that they had monstruos size, that they were also much bigger than the Birmingham Boys and some of the largest lions they've ever saw, and they were talking about the 2 Southern Matimbas, they never even saw the older male who was much bigger than the others. Mala Mala also said that Matimbas were bigger than the Matshapiri males who were themselves very likely bigger than the Majins as everybody saw them as very impressive, while nobody ever thought the same of the Majins.

And to make it clear, these are all coalitions the rangers saw clashing with each other multiple times, it's not even like they saw one coalition once and the other male a month after that and got the impression the second one was bigger, they saw them for years and saw them chasing and fighting each other.

Bboys were also very likely bigger than Majins, Nhenha is simply, clearly, much bulkier and overall more impressive even at the age of 12, than the Majins ever were, but his son who's in a coalition with him and is bigger than him, as a prime male, was dwarfed by the two 5yo PCM chasing him. Of which one of the PCM is much bigger than the other. Hell, among the Matimbas themselves, Ndhuna dwarfed Slitnose.

*This image is copyright of its original author

So yeah the difference between the Mapogos ( weighed 230kg with stomach content ) and the likes of Matimbas and Charleston Boys is insane, again, the bigger Charleston male dwarfed a prime Sand River Male in a fight while he was only 3yo! Even smaller lions like the PCM would dwarf the Mapogos since they dwarfed the Nkuhuma male who's already quite bigger than Mapogos.

Idk if it's the norm of it it's because SS borders the insanely huge KNP, Manyeleti and gets lions from Timbavati too ( that borders Manyeleti ) all the time, but the variation in size there is big.

So again we have the issue.
Rob wasn't the one weighing them nor is he presenting actual weights just estimates. We'd want the one involved with the actual weighing and process used. 
230kg gorged is a good sized free ranging S. African male, it's right in line with what we've seen from Smuts and Hamilton. I'm not denying it's possible, just need real verification from the ones involved to consider it valid. 

In regards to size comparisons, like we already know, there's no real difference between Kinky Tail and T and the Majingilanes. Neither of the Mapogos mentioned were the largest of the Coalition so we know they are all going to be around the same. 

Quote:I never said Majingilanes dwarfed Mr.T and KT, though there is a way to know who's bigger, we have pictures of 5yo 5th Majingilane's skull with prime KT's skull, the Majingilane was clearly bigger although he had smaller canines:

Multiple things to look at in these skulls
KT's skull has a more robust rostrum and frontal area.
His Zygomatic Arch is also more robust and obviously width is impossible to determine since he's missing his other side. 
Last is the fact that his skull is sitting behind the Majingilanes skull with will force perception to be larger in the Majingilane. But overall the more dense and heavier skull is going to belong to KT based on what's shown and generally that's going to belong to a larger male Lion, not 100% of the time but more often than not. But regardless it's splitting hairs, both are close in size and it's what was shown in the video as well. 

Quote:Matimbas definitely, 100%, did, as they dwarfed the Majingilane themselves. Everybody in the Sabi Sands, even Londolozi Lodge who were Majingilane lovers, and their guests, stated Matimbas were much bigger than Majins, that they had monstruos size, that they were also much bigger than the Birmingham Boys and some of the largest lions they've ever saw, and they were talking about the 2 Southern Matimbas, they never even saw the older male who was much bigger than the others. Mala Mala also said that Matimbas were bigger than the Matshapiri males who were themselves very likely bigger than the Majins as everybody saw them as very impressive, while nobody ever thought the same of the Majins.

Again I'd need to see who "everybody" is and in what context their claims are mentioned. Reply

[Potato]

(11-25-2022, 08:29 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Mala Mala also said that Matimbas were bigger than the Matshapiri males who were themselves very likely bigger than the Majins as everybody saw them as very impressive, while nobody ever thought the same of the Majins

No idea where you got that from. Mala Mala in their blog said describing Matshapiri males as "they do not bent the scale by any meassure" which suggest somethink oposite to what you said in this comment. Also I never saw anyone describing Matshapiris as big males ever. 

Personally I wouldn't expect BBoys to be bigger than Majingis, among other reasons by how their confrontations were going, through that is pure speculation to guess which of those males were bigger.

Regarding comparison of Mapogos to Majingilanes there are also other opinions than that of Rob the ranger. I saw Sabi Sabi guide claiming 2 last Mapogos were bigger than 2 KNP males and I saw opinion of Londolozi guide claiming KNP males were definitelly bigger than Majingis so it definitelly isn't clear where lays the truth. Reply

[AndresVida]

The Skull of the Black Dam Male Lion reached a score of 28 inches.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply

[Mapokser]

(11-28-2022, 11:39 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(11-25-2022, 08:29 AM)Mapokser Wrote:

(11-01-2022, 07:00 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(10-31-2022, 11:59 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Why is a vet needed? Rob was there and saw them being weighed multiple times with his own eyes. Or are you saying he's lying? If so why would he lie but not the vet?

By above 215kg I'm talking about empty males since Mapogos weighed 230kg with stomach content and all other mentioned were bigger or even much bigger than them.

There's a huge variation of size in the SS lions, you can see a 3yo male fighting a much smaller adult male in the video for reference. Since more than 30 years ago there's no fence between SS, the KNP and the other reserves of the Greater KNP, lions come and go from the KNP and Manyeleti, or even all down the Timbavati, crossing the Manyeleti and entering SS from the north.

Today we have the coalition of 4, the Ndzengas who are average or below average, even said ( I don't remember now if by ranger, guide or photographer ) to be the smallest lions they've seen and were impressed by how small they are. They came from Kruger. But at the same time we have the 2 PCM fathered by KNP males in a pride at the border, they're much bigger than the Timbavati male the Ndzengas ousted who was already much larger than the Ndzengas themselves.

I haven’t seen what Rob said so I’m not saying anything on that regard. What am I saying is that a guide who “allegedly” witnessed the capture is very different from the person who actually took the alleged weights. 
Lastly there isn’t a “huge variation” it’s just normal size ranges. There’s no location with any real data base that doesn’t show the same variation. But when talking about prime males generally it’s going to be the range of 180kg to 225kg like Rob has said as well. 
This idea that the Majingalanes dwarfed the Mapogos is  nonsense. You see Kinky tail and T compared to them and theres absolutely no way to determine any size difference.

This is what Rob says:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

And comparison of Mapogos with other males ( keep in mind he never saw Matimbas or Birminghams and is just going by "damn they are big" from what he heard other lodges say, but he saw all others for years as they were dominant males in the West where he worked ):

*This image is copyright of its original author

I never said Majingilanes dwarfed Mr.T and KT, though there is a way to know who's bigger, we have pictures of 5yo 5th Majingilane's skull with prime KT's skull, the Majingilane was clearly bigger although he had smaller canines:

*This image is copyright of its original author

As Rob said it's quite clear that all Majingilanes > Selati #1 > Mapogos who with stomach content weighed 230kg.

Majingilane's dwarfing Mapogos aside ( this is a strong word that probably doesn't apply here ), Matimbas definitely, 100%, did, as they dwarfed the Majingilane themselves. Everybody in the Sabi Sands, even Londolozi Lodge who were Majingilane lovers, and their guests, stated Matimbas were much bigger than Majins, that they had monstruos size, that they were also much bigger than the Birmingham Boys and some of the largest lions they've ever saw, and they were talking about the 2 Southern Matimbas, they never even saw the older male who was much bigger than the others. Mala Mala also said that Matimbas were bigger than the Matshapiri males who were themselves very likely bigger than the Majins as everybody saw them as very impressive, while nobody ever thought the same of the Majins.

And to make it clear, these are all coalitions the rangers saw clashing with each other multiple times, it's not even like they saw one coalition once and the other male a month after that and got the impression the second one was bigger, they saw them for years and saw them chasing and fighting each other.

Bboys were also very likely bigger than Majins, Nhenha is simply, clearly, much bulkier and overall more impressive even at the age of 12, than the Majins ever were, but his son who's in a coalition with him and is bigger than him, as a prime male, was dwarfed by the two 5yo PCM chasing him. Of which one of the PCM is much bigger than the other. Hell, among the Matimbas themselves, Ndhuna dwarfed Slitnose.

*This image is copyright of its original author

So yeah the difference between the Mapogos ( weighed 230kg with stomach content ) and the likes of Matimbas and Charleston Boys is insane, again, the bigger Charleston male dwarfed a prime Sand River Male in a fight while he was only 3yo! Even smaller lions like the PCM would dwarf the Mapogos since they dwarfed the Nkuhuma male who's already quite bigger than Mapogos.

Idk if it's the norm of it it's because SS borders the insanely huge KNP, Manyeleti and gets lions from Timbavati too ( that borders Manyeleti ) all the time, but the variation in size there is big.

So again we have the issue.
Rob wasn't the one weighing them nor is he presenting actual weights just estimates. We'd want the one involved with the actual weighing and process used. 
230kg gorged is a good sized free ranging S. African male, it's right in line with what we've seen from Smuts and Hamilton. I'm not denying it's possible, just need real verification from the ones involved to consider it valid. 

In regards to size comparisons, like we already know, there's no real difference between Kinky Tail and T and the Majingilanes. Neither of the Mapogos mentioned were the largest of the Coalition so we know they are all going to be around the same. 

Quote:I never said Majingilanes dwarfed Mr.T and KT, though there is a way to know who's bigger, we have pictures of 5yo 5th Majingilane's skull with prime KT's skull, the Majingilane was clearly bigger although he had smaller canines:

Multiple things to look at in these skulls
KT's skull has a more robust rostrum and frontal area.
His Zygomatic Arch is also more robust and obviously width is impossible to determine since he's missing his other side. 
Last is the fact that his skull is sitting behind the Majingilanes skull with will force perception to be larger in the Majingilane. But overall the more dense and heavier skull is going to belong to KT based on what's shown and generally that's going to belong to a larger male Lion, not 100% of the time but more often than not. But regardless it's splitting hairs, both are close in size and it's what was shown in the video as well. 

Quote:Matimbas definitely, 100%, did, as they dwarfed the Majingilane themselves. Everybody in the Sabi Sands, even Londolozi Lodge who were Majingilane lovers, and their guests, stated Matimbas were much bigger than Majins, that they had monstruos size, that they were also much bigger than the Birmingham Boys and some of the largest lions they've ever saw, and they were talking about the 2 Southern Matimbas, they never even saw the older male who was much bigger than the others. Mala Mala also said that Matimbas were bigger than the Matshapiri males who were themselves very likely bigger than the Majins as everybody saw them as very impressive, while nobody ever thought the same of the Majins.

Again I'd need to see who "everybody" is and in what context their claims are mentioned.

Rob is not presenting estimates, he's literally saying the rounded weight he saw with his own eyes. Idk why you will believe the vet and not a ranger who was also there, the word of both have the same weight as both are credible eyewitnesses, if you don't believe one, you shouldn't believe the other either and should demand a video of the weighting as the only possible proof of a the weight of an animal.

But I have no reason to doubt him. Also they weren't gorged, it's unknown the amount of stomach content they had but certainly not full or gorged, much less than that, when the male is full/gorged Rob points it out clearly and doubles down on it, he even says the weight doesn't count because of it, like he did with the 300kg+ lion from the 90s already mentioned here:

*This image is copyright of its original author

He was asked in different occasisons and gave the same answer "not more than 230kg with stomach content", never said they were full or gorged.

KT's skull was clearly smaller, even the woman who took the pictures and had them, hold them, said the Majingilane was "much" bigger which surprised her since the Majingilane was younger, the fact it's missing some parts aside. And that lion wasn't a prime individual. It's very clear Majingilanes were bigger, they were more impressive individuals. You're the first person I see claiming KT's skull was bigger.

Djuma Rangers watching a Matimba: "Matimbas are substantially larger than the the Bboys, they're a lot bigger": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85ukMnl6Nlw

Another Ranger watching DM Avoca and comparing him with Bboys and Matimbas "Bboys are not really big, they aren't tiny, but when you compare them to the size of the massive Matimba Hairy Belly, he was a monster": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTTwLIfi6yM

Another Ranger when asked about the biggest lion he saw "biggest cat I've seen here were the two Matimbas, Ginger and HB, they were absolute monsters, particulary their paws which were just huge, they had incredible tracks": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlfRvTJDQ9U

Mala Mala Ranger after they got footage of  Matimbas chasing the Matshapiris "the Clarendon [Matimba] are definitely bigger [than the Matshapiri]": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cs1gKNIShs

Londolozi Lodge after seeing HB for the first time:  We presumed that in the darkness the impala had heard the wildebeest moving and had got a fright. How wrong we were, as from out behind a gwarrie bush walked one of the biggest male lions I have ever seen! Identifying individual lions or leopards in the beam of a spotlight can be slightly more difficult than in the day, as the light can play tricks on your eyes, but one thing was clear; neither Dave nor I had ever seen a lion with a mane so impressive. This was no Majingilane, nor was it a Styx, Fourways or Matshipiri male. Having heard of the Matimba male with the enormous mane, this was the only lion we thought it could be.

https://blog.londolozi.com/2015/09/05/li...londolozi/

Another comment: The male with the enormous mane, who some say is – unofficially – the biggest lion in the Sabi Sands, contemplates another bout of feeding on his buffalo carcass.

And another one comparing to Majingilanes:

The next morning (yesterday), reports were that two of the Majingilane and the two Matimba males were found lying up around 500 m from each other. Despite their enormous size, it was reported that the two Matimbas were reluctant to answer the challenging calls of the Majingilane pair. Perhaps they heard the rest of the Majingilane coalition further west and realised the great danger they would face in taking on four male lions.


https://blog.londolozi.com/2015/09/15/ma...londolozi/

Londolozi guest who was in the safari mentioned in the Londolozi article above:

*This image is copyright of its original author

I've also posted videos and pictures of lions dwarfing each other and you haven't addressed, if you think these Matimbas don't dwarf Mapogos then I don't know what to tell you as if the words of the people who saw them aren't enough, images speak thousands words: https://imgur.com/a/P5BSuDC

Edit: More Mala Mala Matimba-Matshipiri comparison, in their report of their confrontation and take over throughout 2017, they introduce Matimbas as: the more regular emergences of these lionesses began to excite us all. They were closely by the two massive Clarendon male lions.

They refer to Matimbas (Clarendon) as massive, but introduce the Matshapiri as: Enter the two Matshipiri males. All of this new lion activity occurring to the north of their territory was never going to go unnoticed be the streetwise and wily Matshipiri males. Not topping the scales by any measure and most certainly not winning any beauty contests, these two male lions top the charts in pure grit aggression and with a fighting spirit.


Clearly they thought Matimbas were much bigger.

https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-lion-tales post #9, text by Ranger Theo York. Reply

[Pckts]

(11-29-2022, 02:18 AM)AndresVida Wrote: The Skull of the Black Dam Male Lion reached a score of 28 inches.

*This image is copyright of its original author

A large skull no doubt but measurements can be done in different manners, SCI or trophy hunted skulls like what you find from Timbavati may include the lower jaw attached and to end of the teeth. Generally increasing length a bit, I also didn't see this skull mentioned on the SCI Record books so I'd be curious who measured it. Reply

[Mapokser]

From the Timbavati, birthplace of Matimbas, Bboys, Avocas, and many others, in the Greater KNP, the Black Dam Male, the lion with the 3rd largest skull ever measured and said by the people who darted him to be bigger than the 283kg Ximpoko male that they weighed ( full stomach ):

Am I to believe this stupidly long titan is the same size as a Mapogo?

Am I to deny what my eyes are showing me and say this 3 years and 3 months old Charleston male doesn't dwarf the prime Sand River Male in their fight?

Reply

[Pckts]

(11-29-2022, 03:00 AM)Mapokser Wrote:

(11-28-2022, 11:39 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(11-25-2022, 08:29 AM)Mapokser Wrote:

(11-01-2022, 07:00 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(10-31-2022, 11:59 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Why is a vet needed? Rob was there and saw them being weighed multiple times with his own eyes. Or are you saying he's lying? If so why would he lie but not the vet?

By above 215kg I'm talking about empty males since Mapogos weighed 230kg with stomach content and all other mentioned were bigger or even much bigger than them.

There's a huge variation of size in the SS lions, you can see a 3yo male fighting a much smaller adult male in the video for reference. Since more than 30 years ago there's no fence between SS, the KNP and the other reserves of the Greater KNP, lions come and go from the KNP and Manyeleti, or even all down the Timbavati, crossing the Manyeleti and entering SS from the north.

Today we have the coalition of 4, the Ndzengas who are average or below average, even said ( I don't remember now if by ranger, guide or photographer ) to be the smallest lions they've seen and were impressed by how small they are. They came from Kruger. But at the same time we have the 2 PCM fathered by KNP males in a pride at the border, they're much bigger than the Timbavati male the Ndzengas ousted who was already much larger than the Ndzengas themselves.

I haven’t seen what Rob said so I’m not saying anything on that regard. What am I saying is that a guide who “allegedly” witnessed the capture is very different from the person who actually took the alleged weights. 
Lastly there isn’t a “huge variation” it’s just normal size ranges. There’s no location with any real data base that doesn’t show the same variation. But when talking about prime males generally it’s going to be the range of 180kg to 225kg like Rob has said as well. 
This idea that the Majingalanes dwarfed the Mapogos is  nonsense. You see Kinky tail and T compared to them and theres absolutely no way to determine any size difference.

This is what Rob says:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

And comparison of Mapogos with other males ( keep in mind he never saw Matimbas or Birminghams and is just going by "damn they are big" from what he heard other lodges say, but he saw all others for years as they were dominant males in the West where he worked ):

*This image is copyright of its original author

I never said Majingilanes dwarfed Mr.T and KT, though there is a way to know who's bigger, we have pictures of 5yo 5th Majingilane's skull with prime KT's skull, the Majingilane was clearly bigger although he had smaller canines:

*This image is copyright of its original author

As Rob said it's quite clear that all Majingilanes > Selati #1 > Mapogos who with stomach content weighed 230kg.

Majingilane's dwarfing Mapogos aside ( this is a strong word that probably doesn't apply here ), Matimbas definitely, 100%, did, as they dwarfed the Majingilane themselves. Everybody in the Sabi Sands, even Londolozi Lodge who were Majingilane lovers, and their guests, stated Matimbas were much bigger than Majins, that they had monstruos size, that they were also much bigger than the Birmingham Boys and some of the largest lions they've ever saw, and they were talking about the 2 Southern Matimbas, they never even saw the older male who was much bigger than the others. Mala Mala also said that Matimbas were bigger than the Matshapiri males who were themselves very likely bigger than the Majins as everybody saw them as very impressive, while nobody ever thought the same of the Majins.

And to make it clear, these are all coalitions the rangers saw clashing with each other multiple times, it's not even like they saw one coalition once and the other male a month after that and got the impression the second one was bigger, they saw them for years and saw them chasing and fighting each other.

Bboys were also very likely bigger than Majins, Nhenha is simply, clearly, much bulkier and overall more impressive even at the age of 12, than the Majins ever were, but his son who's in a coalition with him and is bigger than him, as a prime male, was dwarfed by the two 5yo PCM chasing him. Of which one of the PCM is much bigger than the other. Hell, among the Matimbas themselves, Ndhuna dwarfed Slitnose.

*This image is copyright of its original author

So yeah the difference between the Mapogos ( weighed 230kg with stomach content ) and the likes of Matimbas and Charleston Boys is insane, again, the bigger Charleston male dwarfed a prime Sand River Male in a fight while he was only 3yo! Even smaller lions like the PCM would dwarf the Mapogos since they dwarfed the Nkuhuma male who's already quite bigger than Mapogos.

Idk if it's the norm of it it's because SS borders the insanely huge KNP, Manyeleti and gets lions from Timbavati too ( that borders Manyeleti ) all the time, but the variation in size there is big.

So again we have the issue.
Rob wasn't the one weighing them nor is he presenting actual weights just estimates. We'd want the one involved with the actual weighing and process used. 
230kg gorged is a good sized free ranging S. African male, it's right in line with what we've seen from Smuts and Hamilton. I'm not denying it's possible, just need real verification from the ones involved to consider it valid. 

In regards to size comparisons, like we already know, there's no real difference between Kinky Tail and T and the Majingilanes. Neither of the Mapogos mentioned were the largest of the Coalition so we know they are all going to be around the same. 

Quote:I never said Majingilanes dwarfed Mr.T and KT, though there is a way to know who's bigger, we have pictures of 5yo 5th Majingilane's skull with prime KT's skull, the Majingilane was clearly bigger although he had smaller canines:

Multiple things to look at in these skulls
KT's skull has a more robust rostrum and frontal area.
His Zygomatic Arch is also more robust and obviously width is impossible to determine since he's missing his other side. 
Last is the fact that his skull is sitting behind the Majingilanes skull with will force perception to be larger in the Majingilane. But overall the more dense and heavier skull is going to belong to KT based on what's shown and generally that's going to belong to a larger male Lion, not 100% of the time but more often than not. But regardless it's splitting hairs, both are close in size and it's what was shown in the video as well. 

Quote:Matimbas definitely, 100%, did, as they dwarfed the Majingilane themselves. Everybody in the Sabi Sands, even Londolozi Lodge who were Majingilane lovers, and their guests, stated Matimbas were much bigger than Majins, that they had monstruos size, that they were also much bigger than the Birmingham Boys and some of the largest lions they've ever saw, and they were talking about the 2 Southern Matimbas, they never even saw the older male who was much bigger than the others. Mala Mala also said that Matimbas were bigger than the Matshapiri males who were themselves very likely bigger than the Majins as everybody saw them as very impressive, while nobody ever thought the same of the Majins.

Again I'd need to see who "everybody" is and in what context their claims are mentioned.

Rob is not presenting estimates, he's literally saying the rounded weight he saw with his own eyes. Idk why you will believe the vet and not a ranger who was also there, the word of both have the same weight as both are credible eyewitnesses, if you don't believe one, you shouldn't believe the other either and should demand a video of the weighting as the only possible proof of a the weight of an animal.

But I have no reason to doubt him. Also they weren't gorged, it's unknown the amount of stomach content they had but certainly not full or gorged, much less than that, when the male is full/gorged Rob points it out clearly and doubles down on it, he even says the weight doesn't count because of it, like he did with the 300kg+ lion from the 90s already mentioned here:

*This image is copyright of its original author

He was asked in different occasisons and gave the same answer "not more than 230kg with stomach content", never said they were full or gorged.

KT's skull was clearly smaller, even the woman who took the pictures and had them, hold them, said the Majingilane was "much" bigger which surprised her since the Majingilane was younger, the fact it's missing some parts aside. And that lion wasn't a prime individual. It's very clear Majingilanes were bigger, they were more impressive individuals. You're the first person I see claiming KT's skull was bigger.

Djuma Rangers watching a Matimba: "Matimbas are substantially larger than the the Bboys, they're a lot bigger": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85ukMnl6Nlw

Another Ranger watching DM Avoca and comparing him with Bboys and Matimbas "Bboys are not really big, they aren't tiny, but when you compare them to the size of the massive Matimba Hairy Belly, he was a monster": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTTwLIfi6yM

Another Ranger when asked about the biggest lion he saw "biggest cat I've seen here were the two Matimbas, Ginger and HB, they were absolute monsters, particulary their paws which were just huge, they had incredible tracks": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlfRvTJDQ9U

Mala Mala Ranger after they got footage of  Matimbas chasing the Matshapiris "the Clarendon [Matimba] are definitely bigger [than the Matshapiri]": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cs1gKNIShs

Londolozi Lodge after seeing HB for the first time:  We presumed that in the darkness the impala had heard the wildebeest moving and had got a fright. How wrong we were, as from out behind a gwarrie bush walked one of the biggest male lions I have ever seen! Identifying individual lions or leopards in the beam of a spotlight can be slightly more difficult than in the day, as the light can play tricks on your eyes, but one thing was clear; neither Dave nor I had ever seen a lion with a mane so impressive. This was no Majingilane, nor was it a Styx, Fourways or Matshipiri male. Having heard of the Matimba male with the enormous mane, this was the only lion we thought it could be.

https://blog.londolozi.com/2015/09/05/li...londolozi/

Another comment: The male with the enormous mane, who some say is – unofficially – the biggest lion in the Sabi Sands, contemplates another bout of feeding on his buffalo carcass.

And another one comparing to Majingilanes:

The next morning (yesterday), reports were that two of the Majingilane and the two Matimba males were found lying up around 500 m from each other. Despite their enormous size, it was reported that the two Matimbas were reluctant to answer the challenging calls of the Majingilane pair. Perhaps they heard the rest of the Majingilane coalition further west and realised the great danger they would face in taking on four male lions.


https://blog.londolozi.com/2015/09/15/ma...londolozi/

Londolozi guest who was in the safari mentioned in the Londolozi article above:

*This image is copyright of its original author

I've also posted videos and pictures of lions dwarfing each other and you haven't addressed, if you think these Matimbas don't dwarf Mapogos then I don't know what to tell you as if the words of the people who saw them aren't enough, images speak thousands words: https://imgur.com/a/P5BSuDC

Quote:Rob is not presenting estimates, he's literally saying the rounded weight he saw with his own eyes. Idk why you will believe the vet and not a ranger who was also there, the word of both have the same weight as both are credible eyewitnesses, if you don't believe one, you shouldn't believe the other either and should demand a video of the weighting as the only possible proof of a the weight of an animal.

But I have no reason to doubt him. Also they weren't gorged, it's unknown the amount of stomach content they had but certainly not full or gorged, much less than that, when the male is full/gorged Rob points it out clearly and doubles down on it, he even says the weight doesn't count because of it, like he did with the 300kg+ lion from the 90s already mentioned here:

That's an estimate. He doesn't present an actual weight nor which specific lion weighed what. All he states is that he "was there." There is far more left to be clarified and verified. 

A Vet is the one who actually participates in the the weighing of the cat, whether it's drugging the cat to it's estimated weight or a field expert like a biologist/zoologist who would perform the measuring and weighing of the cat. Rob states he participated in none of the above. His involvement could be little more than providing a gun while research took place, which from the sounds of it, that's likely. We've had numerous accounts of "weights" from people involved with a capture that turned out to be nothing more than estimates. This again is why further clarification needs to be received. 

In regards to gorged, he literally states they were on a bait and weighed more after eating. Hence being gorged, you're splitting hairs on the terminology. Fact is, that's not empty. 

For the 90s male:
Again you have "I forget" 
"Full stomach"
"Being Close"
"50kg of meat inside it"
Etc.
These again aren't verifiable 

Quote:KT's skull was clearly smaller, even the woman who took the pictures and had them, hold them, said the Majingilane was "much" bigger which surprised her since the Majingilane was younger, the fact it's missing some parts aside. And that lion wasn't a prime individual. It's very clear Majingilanes were bigger, they were more impressive individuals. You're the first person I see claiming KT's skull was bigger.

Source?

Quote:Djuma Rangers watching a Matimba: "Matimbas are substantially larger than the the Bboys, they're a lot bigger": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85ukMnl6Nlw

Another Ranger watching DM Avoca and comparing him with Bboys and Matimbas "Bboys are not really big, they aren't tiny, but when you compare them to the size of the massive Matimba Hairy Belly, he was a monster": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTTwLIfi6yM

Another Ranger when asked about the biggest lion he saw "biggest cat I've seen here were the two Matimbas, Ginger and HB, they were absolute monsters, particulary their paws which were just huge, they had incredible tracks": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlfRvTJDQ9U

Mala Mala Ranger after they got footage of Matimbas chasing the Matshapiris "the Clarendon [Matimba] are definitely bigger [than the Matshapiri]": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cs1gKNIShs

Londolozi Lodge after seeing HB for the first time:  We presumed that in the darkness the impala had heard the wildebeest moving and had got a fright. How wrong we were, as from out behind a gwarrie bush walked one of the biggest male lions I have ever seen! Identifying individual lions or leopards in the beam of a spotlight can be slightly more difficult than in the day, as the light can play tricks on your eyes, but one thing was clear; neither Dave nor I had ever seen a lion with a mane so impressive. This was no Majingilane, nor was it a Styx, Fourways or Matshipiri male. Having heard of the Matimba male with the enormous mane, this was the only lion we thought it could be.

https://blog.londolozi.com/2015/09/05/li...londolozi/

Another comment: The male with the enormous mane, who some say is – unofficially – the biggest lion in the Sabi Sands, contemplates another bout of feeding on his buffalo carcass.

And another one comparing to Majingilanes:

The next morning (yesterday), reports were that two of the Majingilane and the two Matimba males were found lying up around 500 m from each other. Despite their enormous size, it was reported that the two Matimbas were reluctant to answer the challenging calls of the Majingilane pair. Perhaps they heard the rest of the Majingilane coalition further west and realised the great danger they would face in taking on four male lions.

You're fanaticizing a bit here

A large mane isn't a large body and what exactly does the Matimbas compared to the Bboys have to do with the Magingilanes compared to the Mapogos?

And what about the comment stating that the guide who mentions their size and specifically their paws states they are smaller than the Mara Lions? 
Can you post the full video?

Most importantly, the Matimbas have been ran out by both the Majingilanes and Mapogos even when numbers were equal. Even if they are larger, it's certainly not some absurd size discrepancy, in every coalition you have some that are larger and other that are smaller but all are in a normal range of one another. 

Quote:Londolozi guest who was in the safari mentioned in the Londolozi article above:

 A guest is little to go off of. What's her experience, which lions has she seen and from what distance.

Quote:I've also posted videos and pictures of lions dwarfing each other and you haven't addressed, if you think these Matimbas don't dwarf Mapogos then I don't know what to tell you as if the words of the people who saw them aren't enough, images speak thousands words: https://imgur.com/a/P5BSuDC

 
What images and pictures?


I've seen none of them together and I've yet to read anything that states them to dwarf the Mapogos. I'll I've seen is that they are big lions that have been run off by the Mapogos and Majingilanes. Reply

[Pckts]

(11-29-2022, 03:19 AM)Mapokser Wrote: From the Timbavati, birthplace of Matimbas, Bboys, Avocas, and many others, in the Greater KNP, the Black Dam Male, the lion with the 3rd largest skull ever measured and said by the people who darted him to be bigger than the 283kg Ximpoko male that they weighed ( full stomach ):

Am I to believe this stupidly long titan is the same size as a Mapogo?

Am I to deny what my eyes are showing me and say this 3 years and 3 months old Charleston male doesn't dwarf the prime Sand River Male in their fight?

Again you have too much fantasy here. 
The 2nd video shows two males very close in size, neither is close to "dwarfing the other" and neither are particularly large in general. The one on the right certainly has more food in his belly at the moment and both look similar in age. Regardless, you're talking about tow cats who look evenly matched. Reply

[woshiniya]

(11-28-2022, 11:22 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(11-28-2022, 11:19 PM)woshiniya Wrote:

(11-28-2022, 10:59 PM)woshiniy Wrote:

(10-07-2022, 06:42 PM)Jerricson Wrote: @Pckts Will try

What's the story?the lion was Dinokeng. And it said that it was weight 265kg in 3 months this year. And it weight over 300kg by a scale in 2017, a lion fan get that from a lion  doctor,I hope someone confirm this.

It's the lion

Definitely would want some more verifiable information first.
 Like from who exactly?
Protocol?
Program.. etc.


The Lion is obviously fully gorged and there's no way that he's 221cm HBL in a straight line, I even highly doubt he could be close to that over the curves.

For my experience, if a lion fan get reliable information and evidence about huge lion,he must post in those thread immediately, but the mysterious lion fan said he would post that after some days. So I advise tiger fan confirm that. I don't believe any unreliable person unless he post evidence beyond doubt. Reply

[Mapokser]

@Potato the person I'm talking to claimed the Matshipiri were big himself, he said:


"I actually saw these two photographed on ig, I thought the male looked massive and it looks like he lives up to the hype. What a bulky boy!"

About other rangers opinion on Mapogos and Majins, true, but:

1. KNP Males' territory wasn't in Londolozi, they have seen Freddy and Limper in occasion only, same for Mapogos and the southern guide. In comparison Rob spent years with both Mapogos and Majins, plus KY's skull was smaller than the 5th Majingilane, so it's fair to say the opinion that Majins were bigger has much more weight to it, though I don't think they were much bigger.

#https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-the-matshapiri-males?page=2

@Pckts  Yes the ranger thought a Mara lion he saw was bigger, so what? Apart from this male he thought it was the Matimbas.

The Charleston male was 3yo and the Sand River was a prime male, we have both these facts confirmed. Sand Rivers fought and took over the Southern Pride in 2012, two years before the fight with the Charleston boy who was born 3 years before. Sand Rivers even mated with the Charleston's aunt that was raising them.

Matimbas comparison with Bboys are important because you're claiming all lions within a region are of similar size.

And size is only one decisive factor when lions chase or fight each other so it'a irrelevant if Mapogos and Majingilanes fought Matimbas, you yourself said the difference between Ron and Caesar was huge, difference of 185 male to a 225kg, still they were ib the same coalition fighting for mating rights and Ron was reported to be the most dominant.

Anyway it's clear you won't change your mind about 225kg being the peak weight of a lion, we should just agree to desagree, it was my mistake getting involved in these discussions, tigers fans like yourself are probably debating such things with lion fans for more than a decade now and if both sides have never reached and agreement surely I'll not be the one to change your mind.

Anyway, have a good day, no bad feelings! Reply

[peter]

ALL

The lion mods asked me to do a bit of reading, as they think a storm could be building. I read a few pages and didn't see any problems, but I did notice no 'likes' were given. Unusual for the lion section and meaning the heat is on. Here's a few things to consider when size is discussed. 

ABOUT FACTS AND OPINIONS

There's very reliable information about the size of wild male Kruger lions. A few decades ago, they averaged 187,5 kg (just over 413 pounds) on an empty stomach and, at 380 mm (just shy of 15 inches), topped the list in the department of greatest total skull length. Meaning we're talking about a very large big cat. 

I've measured a few captive male lions in a Dutch facility and saw a lot more in different zoos and facilities. Based on what I heard when I measured 3 adult male lions in a facility, my guess is most people do not really appreciate the size of an adult male lion of, say, 400-420 pounds (181,44-190,15 kg) and 8.8-9.0 (264,16-274,32 cm) in total length measured 'between pegs'. A pity, as they're impressive by any standard.  

In the tiger extinction thread, I posted a number of tables about the size of wild tigers shot a century ago in what used to be British India. Going over them, one could conclude large individuals are about 10% heavier than average. In a very large male, the difference can be as much as 20%. If this rule is applied to Kruger lions, it means large and very large males range between 200-225 kg (442-497 pounds). Exceptional males, still on an empty stomach, exceed that mark (225 kg). 

The tables I referred to (above) suggest a gorged wild male Indian tiger is 55-65 pounds heavier than an empty male of similar dimensions. Applying this information to wild male Kruger lions, the result is 555-565 pounds for a gorged large male. Some individuals no doubt reach 600 pounds (272,16 kg), but males of that size are exceptional.   

Captive male African lions seem to be as large as their wild relatives, if not a bit larger. There's reliable information about males exceeding 260 kg (575 pounds) and I saw one from Timbavati in a Dutch zoo slightly exceeding that mark. The vet who introduced me to him was experienced. He said the white male, also as a result of his size, hadn't come cheap and added some private reserves (in South Africa in particular) were quite involved in selection. The reason is both hunters and zoos like 'm big. Breeding (semi-wild) large lions in private reserves, whether you agree or not, is a business. What PC said about semi-wild lions, therefore, isn't a result of preference. 

Talking about PC. He isn't, as some suggested, a 'tiger fan' trying to downgrade lions. He's also involved in discussions about the (alleged) size of wild Amur tigers (see below). It seems he prefers peer-reviewed documents over anything else. A result of his background or training? Maybe, but my guess is it could be a result of something else. He's one of the few members of Wildfact who actually saw wild jaguars, lions and tigers in their natural habitat and knows a male lion or tiger exceeding 500 pounds (226,80 kg) is quite something. 

As to the member who posted the skulls of two large male Kruger lions. I've talked to vets involved in the procedure (referring to Rowland Ward). Skulls of wild male Kruger lions, at 380 mm, top the list. I don't doubt some skulls reach 16-16,5 inches (406,4-419,1 mm) or even a bit more, but a zygomatic width of 12 inches for a wild male lion is something else. I've measured skulls of wild male lions approaching or exceeding 16 inches in greatest total length and noticed time and again that even a width of 10,5 inches is rare. Skulls of wild male big cats often are a bit longer than those of their captive relatives, but they're also narrower. Meaning I have a few doubts about a skull of a wild male lion exceeding 11 inches, let alone 12. Records and all that, you know.  

Here's a picture of a wild male lion (Namibia) next to a male biologist (...). Although big in every way, the lion, in excellent condition, was 203 kg (448 pounds):

*This image is copyright of its original author

TO CONCLUDE

When discussing the size of big cats in general, our advice is to distinguish between peer-reviewed documents and other information. In peer-reviewed documents, you'll find info about the aim of the project, the people involved, the methods used, the individuals selected and a lot more. I'm referring to all factors needed to produce a document that meets the threshold in all respects.  

I'm not saying most of the info posted in this thread is unreliable, but one has to remember selection isn't going to produce a reliable result at the level of averages. Also remember there are different ways to measure a big cat. Here's an example of the impact of selection. 

In 2005, a table about the size of wild male Amur tigers measured and weighed in the period 1992-2004 was published. All animals are from one reserve and they were caught with Aldrich footnares. Not a few males tried to escape these footsnares. Two succeeded when researchers and rangers approached. The result was two injured researchers. At least one male tiger later perished as a result of the injuries he sustained when he tried to escape. According to a document about the impact of these footsnares that was published on a Russian forum in 2012, more males were affected.  

Anyhow. The males captured and weighed averaged 176,4 kg (389 pounds). A good representation on an average adult wild male Amur tiger? There are some doubts. The sample is limited (a); young adults are included (b), and all tigers are from one reserve only ©. One of the young males, as a result of his condition, had to be euthanized. In spite of that, he's in the table.  

The average of 176,4 kg stood for some time. In the years that followed, more males were captured. Most of them exceeded 389 pounds. Less than two decades later, information about 3 male tigers recently captured in a new reserve in northeastern China was discussed on a Chinese platform. Reliable information? Well, one of those involved is a well-known biologist.  

So what is the weight of an average adult wild male Amur tiger? The answer is we don't know, but they range between 140-270 kg (310-597 pounds). This is without young adults. The 140 kg male was very old (about 15 years of age).     

Are there differences between wild male Amur tigers, wild male Indian tigers and wild male lions in southwestern Africa at the level of averages? According to Guate, who keeps track of the weight situation, there isn't much to choose between them. Tigers in India and Russia seem to be a bit larger, but in the skull department it's the other way round.    

This, of course, is difficult to accept for some. The result was a barrage of records of giant lions and tigers in different threads. I'm not saying all are unreliable, but our advice is to wait for a peer-reviewed document before getting to a conclusion. That can take a while. The reason is biologists are not too interested in size. Their goal is conservation of big cats walking the edge.   

You still want to discuss giant lions and tigers? Do what you have to do, but remember it takes skill to debate. More often than not, you will have to accept to agree to disagree. If you can't, the advice is to stay away from debates. 

Remember you (referring to all members of Wildfact interested in wild lions) created a very interesting section. In our opinion, the lion section of Wildfact is one of the best. We don't want to see it ruined because of fruitless 'debates' about size. Debate all you want, but remember it always is about respect in the end. Also remember the mods will act when problems erupt. Reply

[AndresVida]

(11-29-2022, 03:14 AM)Pckts Wrote: A large skull no doubt but measurements can be done in different manners, SCI or trophy hunted skulls like what you find from Timbavati may include the lower jaw attached and to end of the teeth. Generally increasing length a bit, I also didn't see this skull mentioned on the SCI Record books so I'd be curious who measured it.

I guess you haven't heard about it because it just popped out or something but I'm going to investigate and provide more information about it right now, will share info later if I find something Reply

[Pckts]

(11-29-2022, 03:10 PM)AndresVida Wrote:

(11-29-2022, 03:14 AM)Pckts Wrote: A large skull no doubt but measurements can be done in different manners, SCI or trophy hunted skulls like what you find from Timbavati may include the lower jaw attached and to end of the teeth. Generally increasing length a bit, I also didn't see this skull mentioned on the SCI Record books so I'd be curious who measured it.

I guess you haven't heard about it because it just popped out or something but I'm going to investigate and provide more information about it right now, will share info later if I find something

Good luck. See if you can get length and width as well as measurement protocol if possible. Not easy to do but appreciate the effort. Reply