Persian Leopard (Panthera pardus saxicolor)

[Pckts]

@Styx38 

Let's start right here...

"4) "Persian leopards are apex predators with high altitude in their favor yet they haven't produced a Leopard over 100kg."

Nice contradiction:

(12-22-2015, 02:17 AM)Pckts Wrote: Wrote:Even though I am skeptical of it, it was confirmed by the vet.
The largest verified leopard weight was the 115kg mark set by a persian leopard missing one paw.

Do you know what's changed in those 3 years?
I've now been to both Africa and India now, I've befriended and spoken with more wildlife experts than in any time prior to my life and I've been to more Sanctuaries and Zoos then at any point prior in my life.
I've seen and spoken to far to many people and things to keep the same perspective I had 3.5 years ago, if you haven't then that's on you.
So needless to say, a weight I was already skeptical on 3.5 years ago has only become more far fetched. Considering I have now seen many Persian weights, spoken with field experts and hunting records to compare, I can say with more confidence now then ever that the weight of 115kg is not valid. A Leopard with a missing paw and no extraordinary dimensions isn't a record Persian Leopard, the largest you have is 91kg on baited cats, this is also why Panthera group doesn't recognize it as valid nor will most.
In regards to the posts on Sambar, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at?
Leopards prey on Adult Sambar, simple as that. 
No Leopard sub species preys on 100kg animals all the time, it's why their mean body weight on prey is between 15-60kg no matter the sub species. 
In Ranthambore, one of the highest density of Tigers in India, Leopards make Sambar kills regardless of Tigers being ever present and abundant.
 
"264
Leopard
Jan 31, 2018
PM
4,5
Tazin
A leopard was sighted when it killed a sambar deer."
https://www.ranthambhoreguides.com/animal-movement/index?page=14&sort=note



So the idea that the Leopards don't kill large prey in the presence of another Predator is wrong, they are very location dependent, even treeing prey is dependent on location, obviously the location must have trees close by or else they must eat in a bush they drag their prey to. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

They just prefer prey smaller than themselves if possible, but again it's dependent on the Cat it self.
We have 20+ pages of Leopards make all kinds of kills, with obvious leopards showing distinct killing techniques depending on their location and individual. You see this in Leopards killing Warthog by Chest bite, an obvious adaption to avoid their dangerous tusks and their thick necks.  This technique isn't something any Leopard can do, it's a skill required of a larger individual.
Hence why we usually see it in males, I don't recall a single female killing a Large Warthog that way.
 
Last is this 
You wrote
"3) Haha, most of the Jaguar prey you listed is fairly small to mid-sized except for the Marsh deer. Anyway, there is a correlation with decent sized prey and top predator position, like Persian/Sri Lankan/Central African Leopard (top predators with decent sized prey) vs. Arabian Leopard (top predators with small prey)."

The prey listed is still large, far larger than the average of 15-40kg for Leopards, and obviously the location of the Pantanal and prey biomass they have there contributes to the Lioness sized Jaguars that live there while neighboring locations like the Amazon don't check the same boxes and thus they have smaller Jags even when living relatively close to one another. 

Also, what you don't seem to factor in is the faults in scat analysis or Kill sites, you have to understand that these researchers are making due with the limited information available to them, but that information hardly tells the whole story nor is it nearly enough data to come to any real conclusions. Using single studies to pick and chose which data you use is going to lead to a skewed analysis that's based off proving yourself right over looking for answers.

*This image is copyright of its original author

@Luipaard wrote
"There's no reliable data as for now; the only data available is like one old one where some leopards were measured. The average for males was 56kg and the largest weighed was 77kg. Everyone takes these weights as the norm. 



However, if you just look at their appearance via photos or videos, you'll notice they're for sure bigger than their Indian counterpart.



As for the dwarfism, the leopard is the dominant predator of Sri Lanka unlike in the savanna or in India where it is sympatric with the larger lion and tiger. In the absence of a more dominant competitor the subordinate species will tend to exhibit an increase in size (this is known as characterrelease). The leopard is free to hunt larger animals and also does not need to stay lightweight to climb high into trees to avoid lions/tigers.


This is why the 'apex predator' leopards are the largest of all leopards. I'm talking about the Rainforest, Sri Lankan, Persian and East African leopards from the Aberdare, Kenya."

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There are roughly only 250 Sri Lankan Leopards left, even when their numbers were better of the 11 males weighed, the largest was 77kg. 
The body measurements are smaller than a few different African Species and Thai ones, in the females it's even more pronounced. 



You always like to use Skull size to correlate Rainforest Leopards as being Jaguar sized, 100kg beast but these leopards below all scored higher than the highest Estimated Leopard Skull, it is estimated of course off of Condylobasal Length, which already has discrepancies. Just look at the different correlations between each one on this chart below you like to use, so that alone means the Largest one is not confirmed. 
 

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But back to the point... All these leopards shown below scored higher than the Largest Congo Leopard skull confirmed yet none of them even reached the 90kg mark confirmed.

*This image is copyright of its original author

#4 In 2009, Phillip Hoisington took this spotted beauty near Windhoek, Namibia. It measured 18 15/16″.

*This image is copyright of its original author

#2 Rodney A. Klein poses with his leopard taken in 2001 in Kalahari, R.S.A. It measures 19 10/16″

*This image is copyright of its original author

#1 Steven Chancellor took the number 1 leopard in 1997 in Okavango, Botswana. This magnificent cat scored 19 11/16″

One of the biggest leopards we have seen , legit 86 kg 189pounds , guys that tell you they have shot 200 pound leopards lie , they don't weigh them properly or at all . This is about as big as they possibly get . Kenyan highland jungle leopards had some pushing 200 pounds but those areas are banned to sport hunting nowadays. South Africa and Namibia has big cats zim too and Ethiopia .

*This image is copyright of its original author

86 kg

*This image is copyright of its original author

Ashok Rajasingh Big record size male will be 80 kg. Average male is 55 to 65 kg. The biggest animals seem to come from dryer open scrub regions.

Varies according to local conditions. Rain forest animals are generally smaller - 50 kg

87kg record size Tom

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

#6 Juan Renedo Sedano took this leopard in 1982 in the Republic of South Africa. It measures 18 10/16″.



Lastly, in regards to the correlation of Large Carnivores present to Leopards...

"Tanzania’s Renowned Maswa North Game Reserve – Maswa North is considered by many to be one of the African continents leading prime game hunting areas. This hunting area can be reached by private air charter or by flying commercial to Mwanza and driving approximately 4 hours to camp. Maswa’s 751 square kilometers is located along the southwestern boundary of the Serengeti National Park. More than 1.5 million Wildebeest migrate from the Serengeti National Park through Maswa North Game Reserve in January and February feeding on the new growth of grasses after the short rains of November and December. The Southern part of Maswa forms the Serengeti short grass plains. Bottom line, the proximity of Maswa to the Serengeti National Park: The climate is moderate here with cold nights in July, August and early September. During the day temperatures will reach upwards of 80 degrees F. Game is plentiful and Maswa offers exceptional trophy quality for Cape Buffalo with bulls between 45 and 48 inches harvested annually; and where you have plenty of Buffalo you will find good numbers of black manned Lions. In addition you will see large Leopards and other splendid trophies that include Robert’s Gazelle, Roan, Cokes Hartebeest, Grant’s Gazelle, Thompson’s Gazelle, East African Impala, Zebra, Defassa Waterbuck, Warthog, Topi, Wildebeest, Baboon, Bushbuck, Eland, Bohor Reedbuck, Klipspringer, Steinbuck, Hyena, Jackal and Ostrich."

We know what Black Maned Lions mean and if those are the healthiest of Male Lions and you find large Leopards in the same location, that only means that they both coexist and excel. 

Proof of this yet again 
"Rungwa East & Rungwa Lunda – Rungwa Game Reserve and Lunda Game Controlled Area of Tanzania covers over 300,000 acres of prime hunting area in the Rungwa Game Reserve and the Lunda Game Controlled Area, sharing over 100 kilometers of common boundary with the Ruaha National park. This area is arguably one of the best hunting areas in Tanzania. It is a known fact that this area holds some of the densest Lion populations in Tanzania as well as countless herds of Cape Buffalo. Numerous in numbers, these areas also abound in excellent trophy quality Leopard, Eland, Sable, Antelope, Roan Antelope, Lichtenstein’s Hartebeest, Zebra, Greater Kudu, Lesser Kudu, Reedbuck, Bushbuck, Oribi, Klipspringer, Dik Dik, Bushpig, Warthog, Hyena, Hippo and Crocodile. There is also a large concentration of elephant in this area, with a number of 50+ pound bulls seen on a regular basis."

http://weshixon.com/trip/tanzania-africa/

As we can see, Leopards from all over Africa have scored higher, weighed more or equal and done so in the presence of Larger Carnivores.


Character Release simply means "character release The principle that a species will be able to exploit a greater range of habitats if it occurs in an environment from which a similar species with which it normally occurs is absent. Compare character displacement. "character release." A Dictionary of Ecology. . "character release."

Which you see in Sri Lankan Leopards for instance, not with size but with density. Sri Lanka is one of the most densely populated Leopard territories on earth, but we're still only speaking on 250 specimens compared to 1000s throughout C. and E. Africa, and this is why their size shows no significant gain from verified weights.

"Restricted dispersal on islands leads to higher population densities, thus to a decrease in body size (Wasserzug et al., 1979) "

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.461.7130&rep=rep1&type=pdf


Insular Dwarfism generally refers to larger animals while Insular Gigantism generally refers to smaller seed eating animals, Leopards and other carnivores generally are effected by prey bio mass. 

"Among mammals, carnivores dominate much of the literature on morphological relationships. Unsurprisingly, prey size is generally correlated with carnivore body size (Gittleman, 1985), so partitioning food by size may be expected. Larger predators tend to take a larger range of sizes of prey, generally because the upper size limit increases (Schoener, 1969; Wilson, 1975; Gittleman, 1985). In addition, substantial data show aggressive interference among carnivores, associated with competition for prey (discussion in Van Valkenburgh, 1984; Van Valkenburgh & Hertel, 1993). Also, carnivores often have wide geographical ranges, thus interacting with many different sets of species, and they often have pronounced geographical size variation, which has been extensively studied. These lines of research have focused mammalian character displacement research on carnivores, despite well-known obstacles to field research on this group. For two Chilean foxes (Dusicyon culpaeus and D. griseus), Fuentes & Jaksic (1979) perceived character displacement as divergence in body length with increasing latitude, associated with a concomitant increase in habitat overlap. Jimenez (1993) rejected this interpretation, arguing that both species adhered to Bergmann’s rule, increasing in size with increasing latitude.
Rosenzweig (1968), McNab (1971), and Ralls & Harvey (1985) disagreed about character displacement in North American weasels. The former two studies both used head plus body length to characterize size. Rosenzweig (1968), studying males and females of the Stoat Mustela erminea separately, plus a mixed sample, saw latitude and mean annual temperature as largely governing size variation and assigned a minimal role to competition with congeners or to size of available prey. McNab (1971), on the other hand, felt that size of available prey plus character displacement generated by competition with other weasels dominated size variation in the Stoat. He argued similarly for size variation in South American felids and suggested that, in general, where Bergmannian size clines exist at all, they are likely to be a consequence of interspecific competition rather than a response to climatic gradients. Using condylobasal skull length as a size measurement, Ralls & Harvey (1985) found no evidence for character displacement among North American weasels. Rather, for the Stoat, they found a latitudinal size cline, while no correlates were found for size variation in M. frenata or M. nivalis."



There are also examples in that study that you can use to back your claim as well

As you can see, these Rules are very up in the air, we can find examples that prove or disprove them and the scientific community is still split, hence why we can circle back over and over again.
But when you cut out the what ifs and "Rules" and just go off of Measurements and weights you don't see a larger cat just a different one.


All that being said, I once again believe Persians to be the Largest Sub Species and yet they haven't produced a Verified 100kg'er just yet and all the hunting sights I see even with baited cats have still not produced 100kg Leopard either, even with more impressive Skull Measurements and to me that says it all. Reply