Felids Interactions - Intraspecific Conflicts

[GuateGojira]

(12-30-2019, 02:58 AM)Pckts Wrote: Some may not like this but, sometimes thapar likes to sensationalize stories or theories.
I'm not saying he's not a valid source though.

Is a tigress capable to kill a tiger? Is Valmik Thapar a person that sensationalize stories or theories?

These two questions arise here and @Shadow tagged me to help him to answer one ot them.

1. Tiger vs tigress:
Logic will dictate that a smaller cat will lost agains a larger cat, however that is not always the case. In fact, Valmik Thapar in his great book "Tiger: The ultimate guide" of 2004 describes two events of a tigress killing and eating a male tiger, this is in page 59 and 60, also in page 68 he describe a similar event, but the conclusion in the last one was not death, she was just trying to fend-off the male until her cubs grow up. Check the images:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Now Dr Luke Hunter in this book "Wild Cats of the World" of 2015 follow the same conclution, check the section of Mortality:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Now, it is common consensus that tigers avoid fights trought a very complex system of land tenure, that change from estrict territories (Chitwan), to home range with overlap and even low-profile "residents" (Panna), Goodrich et al., 2010 made a good summary of this in this table, but take in count that he did not had the results about Panna that Dr Cundawat published until 2018:

*This image is copyright of its original author

However, when tigers fight they may cause death on each other. Dr Karanth gives a good example of that in his book "The Way of the Tiger " of 2001, in pages 75 and 76, check them:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

So, normally a male tiger (100 - 260 kg) will defeat a female (73 - 170 kg) with no doubt, but at least in those two cases described above, the female killed the male taking him by surprise.

2. Is Valmik Thapar a person that sensationalize stories or theories? 
I think that with more than 40 years of experience in tigers, with many books and other publications about this magnificent species, it seems unnecesary to defent the reputation of the great Valmik Thapar. All his books about tigers are based in real facts, using his own observations and also those of modern tiger scientists and well documented observations of zoologists and hunters in old litterature. Even his most criticized book "Exotic Aliens", which may have an incorrect conclution about the origin of the Indian lions, DO have real facts about India's history and culture and historic events. So, from my part, Valmik Thapar is one of the most reliable sources about tigers, together with Sunquist, Karanth and Chundawat, and if he ever "sensationalized" something, is probably the fact that tigers in India are STILL in danger, and for me, that is not sensationalization, but a bitter truth that some people in the Indian goverment still try to denied. Reply

[Pckts]

The first account is hearsay, he wasn't there to witness any of this and it's based off noises heard by a guard 2 Kilometers away.
There are many things that could of happened in this instance. 

The 2nd account gives no actual accounts of this happening, we don't know where or when this is claimed to have occurred.


Also another example of Sensationalism is the claim that a Tigress could pull an adult Male Tiger and Sambar together, I'm sorry but we all know a Tigress isn't going to out pull a Male Tiger and a Sambar Carcass at the same time. 
Again, he's a valid source but he tends to embellish stories IMO. Reply

[Shadow]

(12-31-2019, 03:30 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(12-30-2019, 02:58 AM)Pckts Wrote: Some may not like this but, sometimes thapar likes to sensationalize stories or theories.
I'm not saying he's not a valid source though.

Is a tigress capable to kill a tiger? Is Valmik Thapar a person that sensationalize stories or theories?

These two questions arise here and @Shadow tagged me to help him to answer one ot them.

1. Tiger vs tigress:
Logic will dictate that a smaller cat will lost agains a larger cat, however that is not always the case. In fact, Valmik Thapar in his great book "Tiger: The ultimate guide" of 2004 describes two events of a tigress killing and eating a male tiger, this is in page 59 and 60, also in page 68 he describe a similar event, but the conclusion in the last one was not death, she was just trying to fend-off the male until her cubs grow up. Check the images:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Now Dr Luke Hunter in this book "Wild Cats of the World" of 2015 follow the same conclution, check the section of Mortality:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Now, it is common consensus that tigers avoid fights trought a very complex system of land tenure, that change from estrict territories (Chitwan), to home range with overlap and even low-profile "residents" (Panna), Goodrich et al., 2010 made a good summary of this in this table, but take in count that he did not had the results about Panna that Dr Cundawat published until 2018:

*This image is copyright of its original author

However, when tigers fight they may cause death on each other. Dr Karanth gives a good example of that in his book "The Way of the Tiger " of 2001, in pages 75 and 76, check them:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

So, normally a male tiger (100 - 260 kg) will defeat a female (73 - 170 kg) with no doubt, but at least in those two cases described above, the female killed the male taking him by surprise.

2. Is Valmik Thapar a person that sensationalize stories or theories? 
I think that with more than 40 years of experience in tigers, with many books and other publications about this magnificent species, it seems unnecesary to defent the reputation of the great Valmik Thapar. All his books about tigers are based in real facts, using his own observations and also those of modern tiger scientists and well documented observations of zoologists and hunters in old litterature. Even his most criticized book "Exotic Aliens", which may have an incorrect conclution about the origin of the Indian lions, DO have real facts about India's history and culture and historic events. So, from my part, Valmik Thapar is one of the most reliable sources about tigers, together with Sunquist, Karanth and Chundawat, and if he ever "sensationalized" something, is probably the fact that tigers in India are STILL in danger, and for me, that is not sensationalization, but a bitter truth that some people in the Indian goverment still try to denied.

Thank you, seeing those pages was interesting. Good, that Thapar was there himself and could see all traces, carcass etc. It clarified things and from my part "case closed". Reply

[Pckts]

(12-31-2019, 04:41 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(12-31-2019, 03:30 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(12-30-2019, 02:58 AM)Pckts Wrote: Some may not like this but, sometimes thapar likes to sensationalize stories or theories.
I'm not saying he's not a valid source though.

Is a tigress capable to kill a tiger? Is Valmik Thapar a person that sensationalize stories or theories?

These two questions arise here and @Shadow tagged me to help him to answer one ot them.

1. Tiger vs tigress:
Logic will dictate that a smaller cat will lost agains a larger cat, however that is not always the case. In fact, Valmik Thapar in his great book "Tiger: The ultimate guide" of 2004 describes two events of a tigress killing and eating a male tiger, this is in page 59 and 60, also in page 68 he describe a similar event, but the conclusion in the last one was not death, she was just trying to fend-off the male until her cubs grow up. Check the images:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Now Dr Luke Hunter in this book "Wild Cats of the World" of 2015 follow the same conclution, check the section of Mortality:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Now, it is common consensus that tigers avoid fights trought a very complex system of land tenure, that change from estrict territories (Chitwan), to home range with overlap and even low-profile "residents" (Panna), Goodrich et al., 2010 made a good summary of this in this table, but take in count that he did not had the results about Panna that Dr Cundawat published until 2018:

*This image is copyright of its original author

However, when tigers fight they may cause death on each other. Dr Karanth gives a good example of that in his book "The Way of the Tiger " of 2001, in pages 75 and 76, check them:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

So, normally a male tiger (100 - 260 kg) will defeat a female (73 - 170 kg) with no doubt, but at least in those two cases described above, the female killed the male taking him by surprise.

2. Is Valmik Thapar a person that sensationalize stories or theories? 
I think that with more than 40 years of experience in tigers, with many books and other publications about this magnificent species, it seems unnecesary to defent the reputation of the great Valmik Thapar. All his books about tigers are based in real facts, using his own observations and also those of modern tiger scientists and well documented observations of zoologists and hunters in old litterature. Even his most criticized book "Exotic Aliens", which may have an incorrect conclution about the origin of the Indian lions, DO have real facts about India's history and culture and historic events. So, from my part, Valmik Thapar is one of the most reliable sources about tigers, together with Sunquist, Karanth and Chundawat, and if he ever "sensationalized" something, is probably the fact that tigers in India are STILL in danger, and for me, that is not sensationalization, but a bitter truth that some people in the Indian goverment still try to denied.

Thank you, seeing those pages was interesting. Good, that Thapar was there himself and could see all traces, carcass etc. It clarified things and from my part "case closed".

He wasn't there himself nor did he see anything take place, in fact he was 12 miles away in the rest house.
Allegedly the noises were heard at a Guard House 2km away but again, no name or witness is given here.
All Valmik claims is that a Tigress was eating a Tiger's rump section if he even saw it at all.
Could of very well been a Male, Female, Cub, Sub adult, who knows but no photos of the account nor witnesses have been presented.

The 2nd instance is a claim from a British Officer in 1950, again who knows if it's true.
Or if a British Officer stationed in a Forest Post would even be able to tell the difference between a male or female Tiger or let alone if it happened or was witnessed. Reply

[GuateGojira]

(12-31-2019, 03:53 AM)Pckts Wrote: Also another example of Sensationalism is the claim that a Tigress could pull an adult Male Tiger and Sambar together, I'm sorry but we all know a Tigress isn't going to out pull a Male Tiger and a Sambar Carcass at the same time. 

It is not just a "claim", he saw it, here is the report in the page No. 45 of Thapar's book "Tigers The Secret Life":

"Confortable in the presence of jeeps, she grips the throat of the sambar for a couple of minutes, ensures that there is no life left in the deer and starts the tedious process of dragging the 180 kg cascass away, a few metres at a time, into thick cover. The Bakaula male watches her carefully. The carcass is now some fifteen metres insde the jamun grove at the edfe of a small clearing. The tiger moves toward it. So does Fateh. An amusing scene confronts him. The male tiger, whith his forepaws on the sambar's sump, has a firm grip on one of the hind legs. Laxmi has a firm grip on the throat. The carcass is stretched between the two tigers. A mock tug war ensues as each tries to pull the carcass a little towards them. Both tigers emit low-pitched growls, insterpersed with herculean tugs at the carcass. THen, with a sudden burst of energy and strength, Laxmi yanks the carcass some four metres away with the Bakaula male astride its rump: a remarkable feat, as sambar and tiger together must weight about 450 kg. But it exhausts her and she lets go of the throat. The male quickly pulls the carcass out of sight".

This the real report of Valmik Thapar, I don't see where is the "sensationalism" on this story. Is prety simple, the tigerss pulled the carcass and the tiger for about 4 meters and she exhausted, for obvious resons, and lost the carcass. He provided a figure of 450 kg, 180 kg for the sambar and 270 kg for the tiger, but these are just calculations and the weight of the sambar could be somewhat higher while the weight of the male tiger was certainly much lower. Interestingly Thapar estimated this tiger in page No. 50 at "over 200 kg", so the figure of 450 kg, which is still posible to be draged by a tigress sor a short time, was probably much lower, may be as low as 400 kg. Besides, the drag was probably just for less than a minute in a burst of energy, but after that the tigress give up at the moment. So, no "sensationalism", just a report of an event. Reply

[Shadow]

(12-31-2019, 04:49 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(12-31-2019, 04:41 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(12-31-2019, 03:30 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(12-30-2019, 02:58 AM)Pckts Wrote: Some may not like this but, sometimes thapar likes to sensationalize stories or theories.
I'm not saying he's not a valid source though.

Is a tigress capable to kill a tiger? Is Valmik Thapar a person that sensationalize stories or theories?

These two questions arise here and @Shadow tagged me to help him to answer one ot them.

1. Tiger vs tigress:
Logic will dictate that a smaller cat will lost agains a larger cat, however that is not always the case. In fact, Valmik Thapar in his great book "Tiger: The ultimate guide" of 2004 describes two events of a tigress killing and eating a male tiger, this is in page 59 and 60, also in page 68 he describe a similar event, but the conclusion in the last one was not death, she was just trying to fend-off the male until her cubs grow up. Check the images:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Now Dr Luke Hunter in this book "Wild Cats of the World" of 2015 follow the same conclution, check the section of Mortality:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Now, it is common consensus that tigers avoid fights trought a very complex system of land tenure, that change from estrict territories (Chitwan), to home range with overlap and even low-profile "residents" (Panna), Goodrich et al., 2010 made a good summary of this in this table, but take in count that he did not had the results about Panna that Dr Cundawat published until 2018:

*This image is copyright of its original author

However, when tigers fight they may cause death on each other. Dr Karanth gives a good example of that in his book "The Way of the Tiger " of 2001, in pages 75 and 76, check them:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

So, normally a male tiger (100 - 260 kg) will defeat a female (73 - 170 kg) with no doubt, but at least in those two cases described above, the female killed the male taking him by surprise.

2. Is Valmik Thapar a person that sensationalize stories or theories? 
I think that with more than 40 years of experience in tigers, with many books and other publications about this magnificent species, it seems unnecesary to defent the reputation of the great Valmik Thapar. All his books about tigers are based in real facts, using his own observations and also those of modern tiger scientists and well documented observations of zoologists and hunters in old litterature. Even his most criticized book "Exotic Aliens", which may have an incorrect conclution about the origin of the Indian lions, DO have real facts about India's history and culture and historic events. So, from my part, Valmik Thapar is one of the most reliable sources about tigers, together with Sunquist, Karanth and Chundawat, and if he ever "sensationalized" something, is probably the fact that tigers in India are STILL in danger, and for me, that is not sensationalization, but a bitter truth that some people in the Indian goverment still try to denied.

Thank you, seeing those pages was interesting. Good, that Thapar was there himself and could see all traces, carcass etc. It clarified things and from my part "case closed".

He wasn't there himself nor did he see anything take place.
A Guard heard noises 2km off, no one saw what happened or if it even happened.
All Valmik claims is that a Tigress was eating a Tiger's rump section if he even saw it at all.
Could of very well been a Male, Female, Cub, Sub adult, who knows but no photos of the account nor witnesses have been presented.

You are free to think how you think, as are everyone else. What Thapar wrote is now there for everyone to read. I believe him in this kind of matter, because I don´t see any reason to doubt it and he is acknowledged expert. This isn´t about estimating size from distance or running speed in hasty situation. He was there and could check all the traces etc. taking his time. 

In this kind of thing I consider Thapar as reliable source. That´s why I don´t have anything more to say. I hope that people who read this thread look what Thapar wrote and look closer who he is and then make their own conclusions. Reply

[sanjay]

This is one good video.. One tiger grabbed others paw from fence

Reply

[Rishi]

Tiger Breaks Into Closure of Tigress in Udaipur, Kills Her 'For Not Being Receptive of Sexual Approaches'
Jan 03, 2020

Udaipur: In a first-of-its-kind incident, a tiger stormed into the closure of a tigress and killed her reportedly for not responding to his sexual approaches. The incident took place at the Sajjangarh Zoological Park in Udaipur on Thursday. The tiger, Kumar, and tigress, Damini, were kept in separate enclosures adjacently. While Damini was brought from Pune, Kumar came from Karnataka. 

On Thursday afternoon, the tiger barged into Damini's cage by breaking the wired fencing and mauled her to death. The encounter between the male and female tiger was witnessed by many visitors who were around the area at the moment. "The tiger is aggressive in nature. He barged into the enclosure of Damini and killed her after he caught her by the neck. There are some minor injuries on his body," told GV Reddy, Forest official at the park.

Reply

[Rage2277]

Shubham Yada-Yuvraj Vs M3 fight( kanha 6/01/020)                                                                      just as i thought M3 challenging yuvraj for position in sarhi Reply

[Rage2277]

 uma and jamuntola tussle looks like jamuntola put on some size he's pretty big now Reply

[Pckts]

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply

[Pckts]

Yuvraj vs M3

No clear winner but Yuvraj was said to be a big Tiger by the person who filmed it.
Kanha has some new big boys all fighting it out right now, great to see it continue to do well. Reply

[Pckts]

(01-06-2020, 10:06 PM)Pckts Wrote: Yuvraj vs M3

No clear winner but Yuvraj was said to be a big Tiger by the person who filmed it.
Kanha has some new big boys all fighting it out right now, great to see it continue to do well.

Another one, these guys both look like very big Tigers.

Reply

[Spalea]

Altercation between two male lions... A third one intervenes softly.

Reply

[Rishi]

Again quite tiger-like... 

Reply