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Is Jaguar capable of killing big crocodiles ?
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 (10-28-2019, 11:20 PM)DinoFan83 Wrote: @epaiva How are they "overrated?'' Jaguars are by far the most adapted big cats to hunt them and do so everywhere they are found together. Large Caimain in the Pantanal can get to 100kg and 10' long. They also are nothing more than prey not a threat.  (10-28-2019, 11:43 PM)Diamir2 Wrote:(07-25-2019, 06:37 AM)peter Wrote: BLACK CAIMAN AND JAGUAR I have the book Wild Cats of the World of Luke Hunter, take a good look at the sizes of Tigers and Lions and you will see that he really don't post the best information that we all expect from him, 3,80 meters long is too large and powerful for any Jaguar including the ones from Pantanal and los llanos  (10-29-2019, 12:05 AM)Pckts Wrote:1: I have seen people back (on land and shallow water) a jaguar (55-95 kg) against a 270-450 kg American alligator, a 262-500 kg American crocodile, a 300-500 kg black caiman, and (yes, really) a 380-635 kg Orinoco crocodile. If you want, you can debate me about it on The World of Animals forum, which is where I've seen this.(10-28-2019, 11:20 PM)DinoFan83 Wrote: @epaiva Here: http://theworldofanimals.proboards.com/thread/1860 http://theworldofanimals.proboards.com/thread/2713/jaguar-american-crocodile?page=1 http://theworldofanimals.proboards.com/thread/347/jaguar-black-caiman?page=1 http://theworldofanimals.proboards.com/thread/2909/jaguar-orinoco-crocodile NOTE: To the mods, this isn't cross advertising. Pckts already has an account on WoA, and it's a somewhat different forum from WildFact 2: I understand that jaguars go after crocodilians somewhat more frequently than other big cats, but it's not quite as impressive as one may first think. Yacare caiman are 14-58 kg while spectacled caimans are 7-40 kg. The jaguar, meanwhile, ranges from 55-95 kg. And it really doesn't help that the crocodilans are ambushed.
I'm not an active member of Woa nor am I going to be any time soon. Again, Caiman in the Panatanal can get to 100kg and 10' long, I've seen many in person that size. Caiman are very robust and the big ones can be very intimidating yet they all scatter to the water the minute the plants and high grass move.
The Jaguar is undoubtedly the ruler of that area, I'm not saying they can prey on a full grown Black Caiman but I'm certainly not saying they cannot take one of more modest size either. Like I've said, they are by far the most equipped Big Cat that preys on Crocodilians. The fact that they can hunt and kill large Caiman in deep water then drag them up steep sandy banks with little effort is a perfect example of their capabilities. To call them "overrated" is a Vs mentality that has no place in this discussion. (10-29-2019, 02:32 AM)Pckts Wrote: 1: Again, Caiman in the Panatanal can get to 100kg and 10' long, I've seen many in person that size. 1: What is your source for this? Unless you are referring to a different species, yacare caiman are most often 14-58 kg while spectacled caiman are 7-40 kg. Furthermore, 2 more things to consider regarding that: -What accounts do we have, aside from the 1 account of the jaguar ambushing the black caiman, of a jaguar killing a 100 plus kg crocodilian by ambush or not? Every account I have ever seen is of a jaguar ambushing a similar sized or significantly smaller caiman 2: Never denied they could. What I said was that a crocodilian 2-3 times (give or take some) wins against a jaguar in my opinion. 3: Never denied that. 4: Source? Accounts? I have never seen nor heard of this from jaguars before now 5: And it was just my opinion of jaguars against big crocodiles. That is precisely what this thread is for. How does it not have a place in this discussion?
You're going off a single study from years ago, Caiman suffered extreme hunting. 100s of thousands killed every year, since their numbers have returned so has their size and this has a direct correlation with Jaguar numbers and sizes as well.
In the meeting of 3 rivers alone, you have a density of 65 known adult jaguars with an additional 22 new ones recorded this year alone and from the time of Almeidas book where some of their largest cats were 120kg you now see many over 130kgs -140kg or more. *confirmed by oncafari and Panthera.* Like I've said, I've seen 1000s of Caiman, my source is my eyes, guides like Paulo Barreiros and people like @epaiva will all confirm that they can get to 10' and 100kg as well. I'm 6'5", I know when something dwarfs me and quite a few of them were much longer than I was tall, it wasn't close. Their weight estimate is modest imo, some I saw seemed larger than 100kg but I'd rather be conservative with my estimate. I've seen a few claims of Jags killing black Caiman as well, but also dont think a Jaguar can kill an adult Black Caiman, especially since Jags are smaller in the Amazon compared to the Pantanal as well. The claim of them hunting by ambush is pointless, the reason they ambush is because those Caiman are gone the sec they suspect any cat near them. This is strictly because they are all prey and nothing more, why would they stick around and fight an animal that hunts them every chance they get? You've never seen Jaguars hunting Caiman in deep water then dragging their bodies up sand banks? I suggest you look through the "jaguar predation" thread from start to finish. You'll see many videos of that happening along with black Caiman claims and some videos as well, although I believe the videos are staged and so do most of the guides I've spoken to about it. (10-29-2019, 03:04 AM)Pckts Wrote: 1: You're going off a single study from years ago, Caiman suffered extreme hunting. 100s or thousands killed every year, since their numbers have returned so has their size and this has a direct correlation with Jaguar numbers and sizes as well. 1: So, nowadays spectacled and yacare caimans are 100-130 kg? I could certainly see a few, very, very big caimans of that size but until further confirmation I still believe the sizes I first stated. 2: I agree with you on that. A 300-500 kg black caiman is definitely too much for a 55-95 kg jaguar 3: How do we know these caiman aren't smaller than the jaguars? If I was a predator who was being hunted by a significantly larger predator I would high-tail it out of there no matter what 4: Yes, many of those types of videos are staged as is the anaconda vs 2 jaguars. Most of this kind of thing you see on the internet isn't to be taken seriously.
Nothing you see in the Northern Panatanal now a days is staged, I'm talking of the old Disney videos.
Trust me, when you go through the Black River, you see 100s of giant caiman, they aren't rare. *Never said anything about 130kg though, that would be a massive yacare* The easiest trick to tell when a Caiman is large is by their tail, the thicker it is the larger the individual is. Caimans are literally everywhere in the Pantanal, they're the equivalent of Chital in India or Wildebeest in Africa and they are by far the most preyed on animal by Jaguars. In regards to size hunted by Jaguar, it's more to do about opportunity, when Jags hunt they swim and stalk through dense Bush, the second they see anything move they pounce, while I'm sure they prefer smaller easier prey to some extent it certainly doesnt stop them from hunting anything they can get a hold of. Large Caiman haven't gotten that way by being easy prey, they have survived off their learned skill and natural wit. It only makes sense that they're more aware of their surrounded and have learned some tricks and signs throughout their long lives. (10-29-2019, 03:25 AM)Pckts Wrote: 1: Trust me, when you go through the Black River, you see 100s of giant caiman, they aren't rare. Caimans are literally everywhere in the Pantanal, they're the equivalent of Chital in India or Wildebeest in Africa and they are by far the most preyed on animal by Jaguars. 1: That is true. But from what we know and see they take small caimans the vast, vast, vast majority of the time. 2: I would think that it's rather easy to ambush a similar sized or slightly larger caiman among the weeds (10-29-2019, 03:40 AM)DinoFan83 Wrote:(10-29-2019, 03:25 AM)Pckts Wrote: 1: Trust me, when you go through the Black River, you see 100s of giant caiman, they aren't rare. Caimans are literally everywhere in the Pantanal, they're the equivalent of Chital in India or Wildebeest in Africa and they are by far the most preyed on animal by Jaguars. Where are you getting "small caiman majority of the time?" You really should look through the Jaguar predation thread, most caiman preyed on are good sized animals, definitely not what I'd consider small. https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-jaguar-predation (10-29-2019, 04:00 AM)Pckts Wrote:(10-29-2019, 03:40 AM)DinoFan83 Wrote:(10-29-2019, 03:25 AM)Pckts Wrote: 1: Trust me, when you go through the Black River, you see 100s of giant caiman, they aren't rare. Caimans are literally everywhere in the Pantanal, they're the equivalent of Chital in India or Wildebeest in Africa and they are by far the most preyed on animal by Jaguars. A lot of those caimans look similar to or smaller in weight than the jaguars. Maybe it's just me, but I'm trying to look at what both might weigh and not visual size (10-29-2019, 05:31 AM)DinoFan83 Wrote:(10-29-2019, 04:00 AM)Pckts Wrote:(10-29-2019, 03:40 AM)DinoFan83 Wrote:(10-29-2019, 03:25 AM)Pckts Wrote: 1: Trust me, when you go through the Black River, you see 100s of giant caiman, they aren't rare. Caimans are literally everywhere in the Pantanal, they're the equivalent of Chital in India or Wildebeest in Africa and they are by far the most preyed on animal by Jaguars. Considering Jaguars can easily surpass 100kg while Caiman only reach that weight for the largest individuals, they should look larger for the most part. Also the fact that Jaguars are much stouter in length, they're going to look much more dense. Like any big cat compared to Crocodiles, the big cat has more weight per inch. But to think these Caiman aren't large is a mistake..  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author This is a Jaguar pair preying on a large Black Caiman as well although I believe it to be staged.  *This image is copyright of its original author I hope you also watched the videos of the Jaguars preying on Caiman in the deep water then bringing them up the bank with little issue?
@Pckts
That's precisely what I was referring to. Looking at weight, all those caiman seem to be of comparable weights (in fact, looking at the video of the third caiman, it seems significantly lighter). 100 kg is a big jaguar no? They are 55-95 kg, so a mean of 75 kg is good. (10-29-2019, 06:57 AM)DinoFan83 Wrote: @Pckts In the Northern Pantanal, 100kg is an average sized male Jaguar and really it's a smaller one when compared to most of the large males you see there. Even females there can get close to 100kg at their max, they are by far the largest Jaguars on earth and that is directly correlated to the fact that they have the richest density of Caiman. This is an absolutely massive Caiman here
@Pckts
True, Pantanal jaguars are some of the biggest at 95 kg. But I was referring to jaguars (general), and Pantanal jaguars are on the higher end of the size range. I never said they couldn't ambush and kill big caiman. I said the majority of the time they go for smaller or similar sized caiman. |
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