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Is Jaguar capable of killing big crocodiles ?

Malaysia johnny rex Offline
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#16

(07-15-2019, 11:24 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-15-2019, 08:08 AM)epaiva Wrote:
*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
Important prey of Jaguars: A Friend named Jacabo Friera Acebal who worked a few years in Hato El Frio in the Venezuelan Llanos, he visited el Pantanal recently I asked  him the comparison of the size of Caiman yacaré from el Pantanal with Caiman crocodilus from Venezuelan Llanos. He told me that he saw a good number of yacares 2,5 meters or larger and the biggest one he  saw he estimates measured 3 meters long he took a picture of the biggest one attached, very few caiman crocodilus from los llanos grow over 2,40 meters long.
@yacobnaturaleza

That's exactly what Paulo and I thought as well. The largest we saw we estimated to be around 10 feet.
They are also very dense and completely armoured and they seem to be adapting more armor right behind their heads that is where they even have bigger scales.
The best way to tell their girth is actually by their tales, the thicker the tail the heavier the caiman according to Paulo.

They are everywhere btw, my favorite shots of them are when you boat past the dense floating foliage and you see them sitting deep inside,  it looks so cool.

Yet, jaguars simply bite through their armour just like how jaguars crush the shells of turtles.
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United States Pckts Offline
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#17

They sure do, they're quite an impressive cat.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
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Venezuela epaiva Offline
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#18
( This post was last modified: 07-15-2019, 09:54 PM by epaiva )

Los Llanos of Venezuela had a big number of Caiman crocodilus but far from the numbers of Caiman yacare in el Pantanal, I saw many of them I estimate the largest one attached in the first picture measured under 2,50 meters long the largest captured and measured by us was 2,05 meters long and weighted 44 kilograms 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
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Venezuela epaiva Offline
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#19
( This post was last modified: 07-15-2019, 09:53 PM by epaiva )

The late Jose Ayarzaguena Zanz who worked in the Venezuelan Llanos for 30 years did a research with Caiman crocodilus in 1983, largest male measured 2,31 meters long and heaviest weighted 58 kilograms Largest female measured 1,61 mts long and heaviest 20 kg. He captured 324 animals.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
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India sanjay Offline
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#20

Wow.. you look great in that picture..
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United States Pckts Offline
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#21

I'd say that Pantanal Caiman weigh upwards of 100kg at their max put that is purely speculation based off my visual estimate of large ones.
They are hard to get an accurate weight on since I'm far less familiar with Croc's.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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Venezuela epaiva Offline
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#22

(07-15-2019, 09:51 PM)Pckts Wrote: I'd say that Pantanal Caiman weigh upwards of 100kg at their max put that is purely speculation based off my visual estimate of large ones.
They are hard to get an accurate weight on since I'm far less familiar with Croc's.
Totally agree with you @Pckts
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Australia GreenGrolar Offline
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#23

Honestly, I doubt a jaguar can kill huge crocs and even crocs which are larger than average. Leopards, however, have killed small crocordiles. Therefore, the more powerful jaguar could kill at least caiman size crocs.
While big cats are strong and powerful animals which can give bears a good fight at weight parity, it is no shame to admit both a large male brown bear (grizzly and kodiak bear) and polar bear are stronger than any big cat (extinct or extant).
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United States Roberto Offline
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I agree Greengrolar.
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Netherlands peter Offline
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#25
( This post was last modified: 07-25-2019, 08:27 AM by peter )

BLACK CAIMAN AND JAGUAR

a - Interaction

Not so long ago, researchers found a black caiman of 380 cm. killed by a jaguar. The article, with a photograph, is on the internet, but I also saw it at Carnivora. I also remember an article (with a photograph) of a breeding, and therefore adult, female killed by a jaguar. Both the male and the female were not eaten. 

The conclusion is that jaguars are capable of killing adult female black caimans and quite large males, but incidents of this nature are very rare. Jaguars no doubt have been killed by black caimans as well.

b - Video  

Here's an interesting video on Melanosuchus niger: 

https://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/00000144-0a2c-d3cb-a96c-7b2d436d0000

c - Article

Here's an article written by J.B. Thorbjarnarson. He also featured in the video:

https://www.iucncsg.org/365_docs/attachments/protarea/06_M-24b37cab.pdf

d - Black caimans and humans

When I was in French Guyana, I saw a large black caiman near a river. The head seemed broader and heavier than in other caimans and crocs of similar length.

They told me to be wary. The stories I heard have some foundation. Here's a report (2018) about a man attacked by a 5-meter black caiman in his canoe when he was fishing. He was saved by his wife: 

http://www.jctt.org/article.asp?issn=2542-6281;year=2018;volume=3;issue=1;spage=24;epage=26;aulast=Corr%EAa

A child in Brazil was not so lucky. The attack happened in 2010. The report is from 2011:

https://www.wemjournal.org/article/S1080-6032(10)00374-1/fulltext

e - Size 

I saw a few documentaries about the black caiman in French Guyana. Same region I visited. In one of them, they came very close to the boat of the crew. According to the film maker, large males exceeded 20 feet. If we add they have relatively large and massive skulls, the conclusion is adult males of Melanosuchus niger are not on the menu of jaguars. Adult jaguars, however, could be on the list of the black caiman.

The former owner of this skull most probably was about 14 feet in length. Too large for any jaguar, I think:   


*This image is copyright of its original author
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Canada DinoFan83 Offline
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#26
( This post was last modified: 10-26-2019, 02:48 AM by DinoFan83 )

In my opinion, in a head-on fight on land, with healthy individuals of both species, a crocodilian 2-3 times as big would win against a jaguar.

However, I've seen people back a 55-95 kg jaguar against a 380-635 Orinoco crocodile on land 55-60 percent of the time on The World of Animals forum. And I am nor surprised, given that crocodilians are EXTREMELY underrated both on land and against big cats.
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Venezuela epaiva Offline
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#27
( This post was last modified: 10-28-2019, 11:16 PM by epaiva )

A big croc is simply too much for any Jaguar, Orinoco Crocodiles are the third larger Crocodile species they are out of reach for any Jaguar. There is not even one case of observation of interaction of Orinoco Crocs and Jaguars. Orinoco Crocs are only found in Venezuela and Colombia.

*This image is copyright of its original author
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Canada DinoFan83 Offline
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#28

@epaiva 

Right on! I'd in fact say that jaguars in general are extremely overrated against crocodilians due to some accounts of them ambushing relatively unimpressive spectacled and yacare caiman only about 1/3 their size.

@Luipaard 
You may wish to participate in this.
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Russian Federation Diamir2 Offline
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#29

(07-25-2019, 07:07 AM)peter Wrote: BLACK CAIMAN AND JAGUAR

a - Interaction

Not so long ago, researchers found a black caiman of 380 cm. killed by a jaguar. The article, with a photograph, is on the internet, but I also saw it at Carnivora. I also remember an article (with a photograph) of a breeding, and therefore adult, female killed by a jaguar. Both the male and the female were not eaten. 

The conclusion is that jaguars are capable of killing adult female black caimans and quite large males, but incidents of this nature are very rare. Jaguars no doubt have been killed by black caimans as well.

b - Video  

Here's an interesting video on Melanosuchus niger: 

https://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/00000144-0a2c-d3cb-a96c-7b2d436d0000

c - Article

Here's an article written by J.B. Thorbjarnarson. He also featured in the video:

https://www.iucncsg.org/365_docs/attachments/protarea/06_M-24b37cab.pdf

d - Black caimans and humans

When I was in French Guyana, I saw a large black caiman near a river. The head seemed broader and heavier than in other caimans and crocs of similar length.

They told me to be wary. The stories I heard have some foundation. Here's a report (2018) about a man attacked by a 5-meter black caiman in his canoe when he was fishing. He was saved by his wife: 

http://www.jctt.org/article.asp?issn=2542-6281;year=2018;volume=3;issue=1;spage=24;epage=26;aulast=Corr%EAa

A child in Brazil was not so lucky. The attack happened in 2010. The report is from 2011:

https://www.wemjournal.org/article/S1080-6032(10)00374-1/fulltext

e - Size 

I saw a few documentaries about the black caiman in French Guyana. Same region I visited. In one of them, they came very close to the boat of the crew. According to the film maker, large males exceeded 20 feet. If we add they have relatively large and massive skulls, the conclusion is adult males of Melanosuchus niger are not on the menu of jaguars. Adult jaguars, however, could be on the list of the black caiman.

The former owner of this skull most probably was about 14 feet in length. Too large for any jaguar, I think:   


*This image is copyright of its original author

"Yacare,Spectacled andBlack Caimams in Amazon forest and some  parts of the Pantanal;Jaguars  take all life-stages of these three species, including large adults and eggs."
"large anacondas and Boa Constrictors ,are also killed by Jaguars"
"Wild cats" Luke Hunter



Jaguar vs Melanosuchus niger

In September 1995, we found the remains of a female C. crocodilus (skull length 18.5 cm, estimated total length  1.3 m) adjacent to a depredated nest with the remains of 12 eggs scattered around the nest. In June 1999, we found a male M. niger 3.8 m TL that apparently had recently been killed by a jaguar. Based on the paw marks around the site, the caiman had been attacked by the jaguar while on a thick mat of floating vegetation in a canal located along the margin of Lago Mamiraua´. In August 2007, a camera trap set along a trail in the Mamiraua´ Reserve captured a photograph of a jaguar with the remains of a C. crocodilus in its mouth. The photograph was taken in low restinga forest habitat, approximately 30 m from the nearest water body, and the estimated size of
the caiman, between 1.2 and 1.5 m TL, is consistent with it being an adult female.
"Depredation by Jaguars on Caimans and Importance of Reptiles in the Diet of Jaguar"
Ronis Da Silveira , Emiliano E. Ramalho , John B. Thorbjarnarson , and William E. Magnusson 
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United States Pckts Offline
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#30

(10-29-2019, 12:13 AM)Diamir2 Wrote:
(07-25-2019, 07:07 AM)peter Wrote: BLACK CAIMAN AND JAGUAR

a - Interaction

Not so long ago, researchers found a black caiman of 380 cm. killed by a jaguar. The article, with a photograph, is on the internet, but I also saw it at Carnivora. I also remember an article (with a photograph) of a breeding, and therefore adult, female killed by a jaguar. Both the male and the female were not eaten. 

The conclusion is that jaguars are capable of killing adult female black caimans and quite large males, but incidents of this nature are very rare. Jaguars no doubt have been killed by black caimans as well.

b - Video  

Here's an interesting video on Melanosuchus niger: 

https://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/00000144-0a2c-d3cb-a96c-7b2d436d0000

c - Article

Here's an article written by J.B. Thorbjarnarson. He also featured in the video:

https://www.iucncsg.org/365_docs/attachments/protarea/06_M-24b37cab.pdf

d - Black caimans and humans

When I was in French Guyana, I saw a large black caiman near a river. The head seemed broader and heavier than in other caimans and crocs of similar length.

They told me to be wary. The stories I heard have some foundation. Here's a report (2018) about a man attacked by a 5-meter black caiman in his canoe when he was fishing. He was saved by his wife: 

http://www.jctt.org/article.asp?issn=2542-6281;year=2018;volume=3;issue=1;spage=24;epage=26;aulast=Corr%EAa

A child in Brazil was not so lucky. The attack happened in 2010. The report is from 2011:

https://www.wemjournal.org/article/S1080-6032(10)00374-1/fulltext

e - Size 

I saw a few documentaries about the black caiman in French Guyana. Same region I visited. In one of them, they came very close to the boat of the crew. According to the film maker, large males exceeded 20 feet. If we add they have relatively large and massive skulls, the conclusion is adult males of Melanosuchus niger are not on the menu of jaguars. Adult jaguars, however, could be on the list of the black caiman.

The former owner of this skull most probably was about 14 feet in length. Too large for any jaguar, I think:   


*This image is copyright of its original author

"Yacare,Spectacled andBlack Caimams in Amazon forest and some  parts of the Pantanal;Jaguars  take all life-stages of these three species, including large adults and eggs."
"large anacondas and Boa Constrictors ,are also killed by Jaguars"
"Wild cats" Luke Hunter



Jaguar vs Melanosuchus niger

In September 1995, we found the remains of a female C. crocodilus (skull length 18.5 cm, estimated total length  1.3 m) adjacent to a depredated nest with the remains of 12 eggs scattered around the nest. In June 1999, we found a male M. niger 3.8 m TL that apparently had recently been killed by a jaguar. Based on the paw marks around the site, the caiman had been attacked by the jaguar while on a thick mat of floating vegetation in a canal located along the margin of Lago Mamiraua´. In August 2007, a camera trap set along a trail in the Mamiraua´ Reserve captured a photograph of a jaguar with the remains of a C. crocodilus in its mouth. The photograph was taken in low restinga forest habitat, approximately 30 m from the nearest water body, and the estimated size of
the caiman, between 1.2 and 1.5 m TL, is consistent with it being an adult female.
"Depredation by Jaguars on Caimans and Importance of Reptiles in the Diet of Jaguar"
Ronis Da Silveira , Emiliano E. Ramalho , John B. Thorbjarnarson , and William E. Magnusson 
Nice find, I'd still have some skepticism as to if the 3.8m Caiman was actually killed by the Jaguar or if it died of natural causes though.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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