There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
09-02-2019, 10:49 PM( This post was last modified: 09-03-2019, 12:11 AM by Shadow )
(09-02-2019, 08:24 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(08-26-2019, 11:09 PM)chui_ Wrote: As can be clearly seen from the dates of the emails, Dr. Hoojensteijn told me (in 2016) after he had the discussion with you (in 2015) that 10-15kg could be subtracted for meat in the stomach (I simply asked him if it was empty stomach or not – I did not try to tell him what the empty stomach weight should be because I am in no position to tell him). So I don’t see why we must assume it was only 4-5kg since he has also stated up to 15kg, he’s obviously not too sure. We will probably never know exactly how much meat that jag had in the stomach as even those who weighed him can only speculate and arguing about that seems pointless.
Well, I have the new answer from Dr Hoojemsteijn at 2019, and he made a clear explanation:
*This image is copyright of its original author
I just cover the parts of the phones/email/whatsapp for the Dr privacy, and also cover the comment about the fires in the Amazon region, as that is his personal opinion and while I am 100% agree with him in that, that part is not relevant about the weight of jaguars.
So, no such thing as a bait of 10-15 kg, probably he want to say 10-15 pounds. The bait was fish and he says that the amount was very small which match the amount of 4-5 kg that he told me previously.
Also, he clarify that the jaguar bottomed the scale of 300 lb (the same problem with the Chitwan tigers) but the estimated weight was accourate. They probably knew that the bottomed scale could record other 15 pounds more, which is normal in some scales (remember that the scales used in Panna could mark other 20 pounds more according with Dr Chundawat). So a figure of c.143 kg "empty" is, after all, accurate.
Finally he says that the discussion about the stomach content is futile. Hope this helps to clarify the facts of this big jaguar's weight, which is accepted and certified by the scientists that took it in the field.
Fully translation in English for those that can't read Spanish: To start with the discussion, nobody can know the weight of the stomach content of a jaguar, unless he kill it, open the stomach and weight the content, then this is a interminable and bizantine discussion. A jaguar is able to eat that weight in meat [about the 10-15 kg figure], but the bait used do not had even the forth part of that weight (fish). You can thell these to the expert. [i]
[i]The scale that we had in that moment at hand, was in pounds and reached the 300 pounds, we place the jaguar to weight him and reached the top of the 300 pounds, with strength, that means that weighed above that, and then the investigator Sandra Cavalcanti, with great experience in capture and evaluation of jaguars in the Pantanal, determined that the weight of that huge jaguar was about the 148 kg, and I was there and trully it was very big. I copy to you a publication from me about the comparison of weights and measurements of jaguars and other publication where I am in the picture with this jaguat thet we tagged 148. [/i][/i]
Good to have now clear situation with that jaguar. People can of course always speculate, but obviously that jaguar could have been about 140 kg with empty stomach.
Coming back to the leopard skulls you’ve looked at. If it’s not too much trouble could you provide any further details about the 12 skulls which were from outside Tanzania (location/origin, age, size etc). I’m assuming when you say western Central Africa you mean Cameroon (a former German colony)? If so can you tell me what specific area the biggest skull and others were from? I ask because Cameroon spans a large area from north to south and as a result covers different African biomes (the sahel, the savanna, savanna/forest mosaic, rainforest). Also, recent genetic studies suggest the leopards of Cameroon may group with 3 distinct populations – West African, Central/East African, and the Gabonese in the south (although further studies are needed to confirm this).
Regarding the skulls from Tanzania (formerly German East Africa), I suspect all or most of the skulls you looked at may have been from the lower elevation southern and coastal areas of that country where the leopards are known to be pretty small, averaging around 45kg based on recorded data. The bigger leopards in Tanzania (and East Africa in general) are those from the highlands in the more northern and western parts of that country (near the border with Kenya and Uganda) – averaging around 60kg based on recorded data from Kenya and northern Tanzania. And the very biggest in East Africa appear to be from the dense forests surrounding mountain peaks – especially areas like the Aberdares and Mt Kenya in Kenya but also places like Mt Meru in Tanzania. No specific sample available from these high mountain forests but PH Hamilton (senior wildlife biologist of the Kenya Wildlife department in the 1980s) indicated an average of around 70kg for males in the mountain forests with a range of 60-95kg (probably based on hunted specimens). This overall trend in leopard size related to elevation has been noted pretty consistently by professional hunters experienced in East Africa.
For comparison to the fairly small skulls from former German East Africa (modern day Tanzania) - Pocock with his sample from mostly Kenya (former British East Africa) and northern Tanzania gave an average of 236mm greatest length for adult male leopard skulls from East Africa (vs your max of only 221mm). As noted above this probably reflects the difference in habitat – with most of British East Africa occupying the highland areas of Kenya where leopards are bigger compared to the area of German East Africa being mostly low ground miombo woodland type habitat known for its small leopards.
The next days, I'm out. I'll start on a table next week. Might take some time, as it needs to be accurate. Will post it later this week.
My proposal is to continue in the leopard extinction thread. That's the one we should use when discussing the essentials of leopards.
Overall it looks like, that a lot of discussion and some adjustment to jaguar weight information. Still that one discussion, that where are the biggest leopards in average and differences with other subspecies/populations stayed as open as it was before. Looks like it, that there simply isn´t enough information available to know for sure. But on the other hand, what would life be if no little mysteries time to time :)
Hopefully Philipp Henschel can give us some more insight into this subject. So far we have skull data which shows us that leopards from Central Africa have larger, more robust skulls on average. Then there are those claims from professional hunters who claim that the largest leopards come indeed from the equatorial forests of Africa + the fact that their main prey are red river hogs and even young forest buffalo! (Philipp Henschel stated this).
All of this makes me consider these particular leopards to be the largest in the world. But for now we are indeed not for sure so we can only speculate for now
Coming back to the leopard skulls you’ve looked at. If it’s not too much trouble could you provide any further details about the 12 skulls which were from outside Tanzania (location/origin, age, size etc). I’m assuming when you say western Central Africa you mean Cameroon (a former German colony)? If so can you tell me what specific area the biggest skull and others were from? I ask because Cameroon spans a large area from north to south and as a result covers different African biomes (the sahel, the savanna, savanna/forest mosaic, rainforest). Also, recent genetic studies suggest the leopards of Cameroon may group with 3 distinct populations – West African, Central/East African, and the Gabonese in the south (although further studies are needed to confirm this).
Regarding the skulls from Tanzania (formerly German East Africa), I suspect all or most of the skulls you looked at may have been from the lower elevation southern and coastal areas of that country where the leopards are known to be pretty small, averaging around 45kg based on recorded data. The bigger leopards in Tanzania (and East Africa in general) are those from the highlands in the more northern and western parts of that country (near the border with Kenya and Uganda) – averaging around 60kg based on recorded data from Kenya and northern Tanzania. And the very biggest in East Africa appear to be from the dense forests surrounding mountain peaks – especially areas like the Aberdares and Mt Kenya in Kenya but also places like Mt Meru in Tanzania. No specific sample available from these high mountain forests but PH Hamilton (senior wildlife biologist of the Kenya Wildlife department in the 1980s) indicated an average of around 70kg for males in the mountain forests with a range of 60-95kg (probably based on hunted specimens). This overall trend in leopard size related to elevation has been noted pretty consistently by professional hunters experienced in East Africa.
For comparison to the fairly small skulls from former German East Africa (modern day Tanzania) - Pocock with his sample from mostly Kenya (former British East Africa) and northern Tanzania gave an average of 236mm greatest length for adult male leopard skulls from East Africa (vs your max of only 221mm). As noted above this probably reflects the difference in habitat – with most of British East Africa occupying the highland areas of Kenya where leopards are bigger compared to the area of German East Africa being mostly low ground miombo woodland type habitat known for its small leopards.
The next days, I'm out. I'll start on a table next week. Might take some time, as it needs to be accurate. Will post it later this week.
My proposal is to continue in the leopard extinction thread. That's the one we should use when discussing the essentials of leopards.
Overall it looks like, that a lot of discussion and some adjustment to jaguar weight information. Still that one discussion, that where are the biggest leopards in average and differences with other subspecies/populations stayed as open as it was before. Looks like it, that there simply isn´t enough information available to know for sure. But on the other hand, what would life be if no little mysteries time to time :)
Hopefully Philipp Henschel can give us some more insight into this subject. So far we have skull data which shows us that leopards from Central Africa have larger, more robust skulls on average. Then there are those claims from professional hunters who claim that the largest leopards come indeed from the equatorial forests of Africa + the fact that their main prey are red river hogs and even young forest buffalo! (Philipp Henschel stated this).
All of this makes me consider these particular leopards to be the largest in the world. But for now we are indeed not for sure so we can only speculate for now
Yes, there are things indicating that it could be so. What Henschel tells, when he has time, will be interesting to see.
09-03-2019, 12:02 AM( This post was last modified: 09-03-2019, 12:04 AM by Pckts )
(09-02-2019, 08:24 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(08-26-2019, 11:09 PM)chui_ Wrote: As can be clearly seen from the dates of the emails, Dr. Hoojensteijn told me (in 2016) after he had the discussion with you (in 2015) that 10-15kg could be subtracted for meat in the stomach (I simply asked him if it was empty stomach or not – I did not try to tell him what the empty stomach weight should be because I am in no position to tell him). So I don’t see why we must assume it was only 4-5kg since he has also stated up to 15kg, he’s obviously not too sure. We will probably never know exactly how much meat that jag had in the stomach as even those who weighed him can only speculate and arguing about that seems pointless.
Well, I have the new answer from Dr Hoojemsteijn at 2019, and he made a clear explanation:
*This image is copyright of its original author
I just cover the parts of the phones/email/whatsapp for the Dr privacy, and also cover the comment about the fires in the Amazon region, as that is his personal opinion and while I am 100% agree with him in that, that part is not relevant about the weight of jaguars.
So, no such thing as a bait of 10-15 kg, probably he want to say 10-15 pounds. The bait was fish and he says that the amount was very small which match the amount of 4-5 kg that he told me previously.
Also, he clarify that the jaguar bottomed the scale of 300 lb (the same problem with the Chitwan tigers) but the estimated weight was accourate. They probably knew that the bottomed scale could record other 15 pounds more, which is normal in some scales (remember that the scales used in Panna could mark other 20 pounds more according with Dr Chundawat). So a figure of c.143 kg "empty" is, after all, accurate.
Finally he says that the discussion about the stomach content is futile. Hope this helps to clarify the facts of this big jaguar's weight, which is accepted and certified by the scientists that took it in the field.
Fully translation in English for those that can't read Spanish: To start with the discussion, nobody can know the weight of the stomach content of a jaguar, unless he kill it, open the stomach and weight the content, then this is a interminable and bizantine discussion. A jaguar is able to eat that weight in meat [about the 10-15 kg figure], but the bait used do not had even the forth part of that weight (fish). You can thell these to the expert. [i]
[i]The scale that we had in that moment at hand, was in pounds and reached the 300 pounds, we place the jaguar to weight him and reached the top of the 300 pounds, with strength, that means that weighed above that, and then the investigator Sandra Cavalcanti, with great experience in capture and evaluation of jaguars in the Pantanal, determined that the weight of that huge jaguar was about the 148 kg, and I was there and trully it was very big. I copy to you a publication from me about the comparison of weights and measurements of jaguars and other publication where I am in the picture with this jaguat thet we tagged 148. [/i][/i]
It's very hard with Jags to determine if they're full or not, they're just so filled to the brim all the time. They dont make the drastic weight changes you see in Lions and Tigers between full or empty for whatever reason.
Thanks GG
(08-26-2019, 11:09 PM)chui_ Wrote: As can be clearly seen from the dates of the emails, Dr. Hoojensteijn told me (in 2016) after he had the discussion with you (in 2015) that 10-15kg could be subtracted for meat in the stomach (I simply asked him if it was empty stomach or not – I did not try to tell him what the empty stomach weight should be because I am in no position to tell him). So I don’t see why we must assume it was only 4-5kg since he has also stated up to 15kg, he’s obviously not too sure. We will probably never know exactly how much meat that jag had in the stomach as even those who weighed him can only speculate and arguing about that seems pointless.
Well, I have the new answer from Dr Hoojemsteijn at 2019, and he made a clear explanation:
*This image is copyright of its original author
I just cover the parts of the phones/email/whatsapp for the Dr privacy, and also cover the comment about the fires in the Amazon region, as that is his personal opinion and while I am 100% agree with him in that, that part is not relevant about the weight of jaguars.
So, no such thing as a bait of 10-15 kg, probably he want to say 10-15 pounds. The bait was fish and he says that the amount was very small which match the amount of 4-5 kg that he told me previously.
Also, he clarify that the jaguar bottomed the scale of 300 lb (the same problem with the Chitwan tigers) but the estimated weight was accourate. They probably knew that the bottomed scale could record other 15 pounds more, which is normal in some scales (remember that the scales used in Panna could mark other 20 pounds more according with Dr Chundawat). So a figure of c.143 kg "empty" is, after all, accurate.
Finally he says that the discussion about the stomach content is futile. Hope this helps to clarify the facts of this big jaguar's weight, which is accepted and certified by the scientists that took it in the field.
Fully translation in English for those that can't read Spanish: To start with the discussion, nobody can know the weight of the stomach content of a jaguar, unless he kill it, open the stomach and weight the content, then this is a interminable and bizantine discussion. A jaguar is able to eat that weight in meat [about the 10-15 kg figure], but the bait used do not had even the forth part of that weight (fish). You can thell these to the expert. [i]
[i]The scale that we had in that moment at hand, was in pounds and reached the 300 pounds, we place the jaguar to weight him and reached the top of the 300 pounds, with strength, that means that weighed above that, and then the investigator Sandra Cavalcanti, with great experience in capture and evaluation of jaguars in the Pantanal, determined that the weight of that huge jaguar was about the 148 kg, and I was there and trully it was very big. I copy to you a publication from me about the comparison of weights and measurements of jaguars and other publication where I am in the picture with this jaguat thet we tagged 148. [/i][/i]
I agree with Dr Hoojensteijn that there is no way to know exactly how much meat the jaguar had in his stomach, we can only speculate (I stated this in my last post on this topic). In any case, it appears to have been an exceptionally huge jaguar with a possible empty stomach weight of around 140kg. It's unfortunate that a proper scale wasn't available to record a precise weight for this monster jaguar.
It would be interesting to see if any other body measurements were recorded for this jaguar. Tony Almeida recorded very detailed measurements for jaguars (chest girth, head girth, neck girth, body length, height etc). Especially measurements like body length and chest girth would give us a good idea of how this jaguar compared to the largest recorded by Almeida.
(08-26-2019, 11:09 PM)chui_ Wrote: As can be clearly seen from the dates of the emails, Dr. Hoojensteijn told me (in 2016) after he had the discussion with you (in 2015) that 10-15kg could be subtracted for meat in the stomach (I simply asked him if it was empty stomach or not – I did not try to tell him what the empty stomach weight should be because I am in no position to tell him). So I don’t see why we must assume it was only 4-5kg since he has also stated up to 15kg, he’s obviously not too sure. We will probably never know exactly how much meat that jag had in the stomach as even those who weighed him can only speculate and arguing about that seems pointless.
Well, I have the new answer from Dr Hoojemsteijn at 2019, and he made a clear explanation:
*This image is copyright of its original author
I just cover the parts of the phones/email/whatsapp for the Dr privacy, and also cover the comment about the fires in the Amazon region, as that is his personal opinion and while I am 100% agree with him in that, that part is not relevant about the weight of jaguars.
So, no such thing as a bait of 10-15 kg, probably he want to say 10-15 pounds. The bait was fish and he says that the amount was very small which match the amount of 4-5 kg that he told me previously.
Also, he clarify that the jaguar bottomed the scale of 300 lb (the same problem with the Chitwan tigers) but the estimated weight was accourate. They probably knew that the bottomed scale could record other 15 pounds more, which is normal in some scales (remember that the scales used in Panna could mark other 20 pounds more according with Dr Chundawat). So a figure of c.143 kg "empty" is, after all, accurate.
Finally he says that the discussion about the stomach content is futile. Hope this helps to clarify the facts of this big jaguar's weight, which is accepted and certified by the scientists that took it in the field.
Fully translation in English for those that can't read Spanish: To start with the discussion, nobody can know the weight of the stomach content of a jaguar, unless he kill it, open the stomach and weight the content, then this is a interminable and bizantine discussion. A jaguar is able to eat that weight in meat [about the 10-15 kg figure], but the bait used do not had even the forth part of that weight (fish). You can thell these to the expert. [i]
[i]The scale that we had in that moment at hand, was in pounds and reached the 300 pounds, we place the jaguar to weight him and reached the top of the 300 pounds, with strength, that means that weighed above that, and then the investigator Sandra Cavalcanti, with great experience in capture and evaluation of jaguars in the Pantanal, determined that the weight of that huge jaguar was about the 148 kg, and I was there and trully it was very big. I copy to you a publication from me about the comparison of weights and measurements of jaguars and other publication where I am in the picture with this jaguat thet we tagged 148. [/i][/i]
I agree with Dr Hoojensteijn that there is no way to know exactly how much meat the jaguar had in his stomach, we can only speculate (I stated this in my last post on this topic). In any case, it appears to have been an exceptionally huge jaguar with a possible empty stomach weight of around 140kg. It's unfortunate that a proper scale wasn't available to record a precise weight for this monster jaguar.
It would be interesting to see if any other body measurements were recorded for this jaguar. Tony Almeida recorded very detailed measurements for jaguars (chest girth, head girth, neck girth, body length, height etc). Especially measurements like body length and chest girth would give us a good idea of how this jaguar compared to the largest recorded by Almeida.
I'll ask Fernando Tortato what other body dimensions they take and if he'd mind sharing the available data.
From my own observations you'd be surprised how tall they are, definitely seem taller at the shoulder than any leopard I've seen. Body length looks long too but they're so stocky and their spine curves quite a bit so it's harder to tell length.
That rule actually holds true for all cats I've seen, I'd say length is definitely the hardest to tell differences in visually but shoulder height and mass are much easier.
Quail Hunters VERY RARE photo of a hunted guar in its natural distribution. Hunting the Indian bison, as it was called by the British in India, was considered a highly noble undertaking. A bull gaur with horns spreading over three feet is as impressive a trophy as anyone could wish for. Formidable, huge(can reach 3000 pounds making them the largest of the bovinae), potentially dangerous and elusive, the gaur tested the skill and endurance of any hunter attempting to collect it. The usual method of hunting was to locate fresh tracks and follow, hopefully being able to approach the animal while it was still feeding, for once bedded down it was virtually impossible to approach undetected. Its huge size required shooting with heavy caliber rifles, and the amount of damage a gaur could sustain before succumbing is difficult to believe. •••••••
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
A 10 1/2 foot man-eater taken in India by Sam Pancotto. •••••••••••••••••• "The Man-Eater of Bastar"- As the story goes... "The damn tiger was smart. He'd been hunted before, maybe even wounded, and now his natural cunning plus his "knowledge" of mans ways -- he was a man-eater with two kills in three days to his credit -- made him more dangerous than ever.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Giant wild lion. It is said that you hunt elephant with your feet, buffalo with your gut and lion with your heart. Legend further has it that a hunter is scared by a lion three times; the first time when its spoor is encountered, the second time when its mighty roar is heard and the third time when it is seen for the first time. ••••• Man…can understand a lion, because a lion is life in its simplest form, beautiful, menacing, dangerous, and attractive to his ego. A lion has always been the symbol of challenge, the prototype of personal hazard. You get the lion, or the lion gets you. -RR
*This image is copyright of its original author
This is the second largest Nile crocodile ever entered into the record books. It was hunted in 2006 on the banks of Lake Chamo in Ethiopia. Take a guess how long and how old this croc is! All the biggest crocs come from this lake, even the current #1
09-08-2019, 03:58 AM( This post was last modified: 09-08-2019, 03:59 AM by epaiva )
(09-07-2019, 11:52 PM)Pckts Wrote: Quail Hunters
Male Leoaprd from C. Africa
*This image is copyright of its original author
Cougar
*This image is copyright of its original author
Quail Hunters VERY RARE photo of a hunted guar in its natural distribution. Hunting the Indian bison, as it was called by the British in India, was considered a highly noble undertaking. A bull gaur with horns spreading over three feet is as impressive a trophy as anyone could wish for. Formidable, huge(can reach 3000 pounds making them the largest of the bovinae), potentially dangerous and elusive, the gaur tested the skill and endurance of any hunter attempting to collect it. The usual method of hunting was to locate fresh tracks and follow, hopefully being able to approach the animal while it was still feeding, for once bedded down it was virtually impossible to approach undetected. Its huge size required shooting with heavy caliber rifles, and the amount of damage a gaur could sustain before succumbing is difficult to believe. •••••••
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
A 10 1/2 foot man-eater taken in India by Sam Pancotto. •••••••••••••••••• "The Man-Eater of Bastar"- As the story goes... "The damn tiger was smart. He'd been hunted before, maybe even wounded, and now his natural cunning plus his "knowledge" of mans ways -- he was a man-eater with two kills in three days to his credit -- made him more dangerous than ever.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Giant wild lion. It is said that you hunt elephant with your feet, buffalo with your gut and lion with your heart. Legend further has it that a hunter is scared by a lion three times; the first time when its spoor is encountered, the second time when its mighty roar is heard and the third time when it is seen for the first time. ••••• Man…can understand a lion, because a lion is life in its simplest form, beautiful, menacing, dangerous, and attractive to his ego. A lion has always been the symbol of challenge, the prototype of personal hazard. You get the lion, or the lion gets you. -RR
*This image is copyright of its original author
This is the second largest Nile crocodile ever entered into the record books. It was hunted in 2006 on the banks of Lake Chamo in Ethiopia. Take a guess how long and how old this croc is! All the biggest crocs come from this lake, even the current #1
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Incredible huge Nile Crocodile from Lake Chamo, yes Lake Chamo is famous for its giant Crocs
The following 1 user Likes epaiva's post:1 user Likes epaiva's post • Pckts
Now for some contrast from the cute cubs, here’s “The Dark” — the biggest, baddest male puma in area.
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We caught this brute stealing bites from one of Rupestre‘s kills in the morning. After a brief showdown with her she chased him off to a rocky outcropping. We followed quickly and cautiously on foot — and that’s how I got this glimpse of the biggest wild cat I’ve ever seen. Imagine coming around a huge boulder on foot and looking through your lens to see this face ?
.
It’s more rare to see big males because their territory is much larger, so they spend more time roaming their circuit. Adult male pumas pose a serious threat to the cubs; if given the chance, they will kill the whole litter. So this encounter was both exciting and very worrisome. The cubs scattered in panic at the sight of this dude, across the ridge, and we couldn’t account for all of them. More on that later...
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Shot on safari in Torres del Paine
He's seen and photographed a good amount of Sri Lankan Leopards, so it's safe to say these Cougars are larger.
09-19-2019, 10:13 AM( This post was last modified: 10-21-2019, 08:47 PM by BorneanTiger )
There's no doubt that the African bush elephant (Loxodonta africana) is the heaviest, biggest and strongest terrestrial animal, but the giraffe is nevertheless so tall and big that it can use its size to intimidate an elephant! In this video, after an elephant is shown kicking off a hippo (the screenshots of that can be viewed here), when a small family of elephants approaches a couple of aggressive giraffes, the giraffes make them retreat!
09-19-2019, 01:07 PM( This post was last modified: 09-19-2019, 01:11 PM by BorneanTiger )
This northern Iranian tiger from the early 1940's, albeit stuffed, is so big that it's no wonder that Vratislav Mazák said that the Caspian tiger (a close relative of the Siberian tiger which inhabited Afghanistan (South Asia), Central and Southwestern Asia, and possibly Eastern Europe) was one of the biggest cats that ever lived: http://www.tigers.ca/Foundation%20overview/caspian2.htm
According to Compion and Power, the highest prey-to-predator weight ratio among known terrestrial mammals is that of the African bush elephant (Loxodonta africana) to the lion (Panthera leo) at 10–15 : 1, and this was calculated for subadult or small adult elephants which were killed by the Savuti lions of Chobe National Park, Botswana, the very group of lions which were caught on camera in that documentary by the BBC:
Otherwise, check out this case of a lone lioness chasing an adult elephant, and almost catching it:
