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BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS
BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS
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BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS
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 (02-17-2015, 07:59 PM)'chaos' Wrote: Not for nothing, but Ammons comment is an opinion and Grizzlies comment don't even pertain to my argument so now you are calling for more scientific approach/argumentation...or what? :-) Relax chaos, I think there is general argreement here that crater lions are huge, that they are probably the biggest local group of lions in the world. The question is whether the 212 kg estimate is or is not exaggerated. Some of us have opinion that the real average is probably somewhat lower, for example 197 kg...and we are trying to discuss the thing. Thats all...there is no reason to be angry or unfriendly...for me personally this site is a place for pleasant relaxation after stressful work, so please avoid negative emotions :-) (02-17-2015, 06:00 AM)'tigerluver' Wrote: Peer-reviewed papers must be intrinsically respected, but they are not necessarily the final, undeniable word. Exactly. For instance in various peer-reviewed papers amur tigers are said to be the largest felids...but we safely know that the title goes to bengal tigers - just example. btw chaos...for a lion fan it could be quite "dangerous" (lol) to blindly follow articles published in peer-reviewed papers :-)  (02-17-2015, 05:56 AM)'chaos' Wrote:(02-17-2015, 05:43 AM)'Pckts' Wrote:(02-17-2015, 05:05 AM)'chaos' Wrote: And?...............My posts are based solely on logic as to why craters could be larger. I am not the only person whoThe only thing that "irks me" is your refusal of anybody who disagrees with your claim. The crater is with in the Conservation area! "The Ngorongoro Conservation Area (NCA) is a conservation area and a UNESCO World Heritage Site located 180 km (110 mi) west of Arusha in the Crater Highlands area of Tanzania. Ngorongoro Crater, a large volcanic caldera WITHIN the area, is recognized by one private organization as one of the Seven Natural Wonders of Africa.[sup][3][/sup] The conservation area is administered by the Ngorongoro Conservation Area Authority, an arm of the Tanzanian government, and its boundaries follow the boundary of the Ngorongoro Division of the Arusha Region. " (02-17-2015, 06:00 AM)'tigerluver' Wrote: Peer-reviewed papers must be intrinsically respected, but they are not necessarily the final, undeniable word. By the conversations cited, something was off in the equation used and the peer-review did not catch it. Why? The peer-review process is not really focused on the data. The editors are rarely experts in the same concentration as the author. They do not know what is a right number and what's not. I'd say that a quarter of peer-reviewed works in the zoological and paleobiological field have some type of undetected data error. Rather if the work somehow gets past the "important enough" threshold, it will be more grammatically shredded than anything else. This is something to keep in mind when citing any peer-reviewed paper. Exactly, also when comparing lets say "crater lions" to "kaziranga Tigers" we must take in to account time for morphological differences to occur. Kaziranga has had 100s of years for Tigers to attain different morphological attributes I:E: skull size for one, while Crater lions have only had 30 years or so to attain any difference in morphology compared to Serengeti, if any at all. Its not a climatic difference or terrain difference so there wouldn't need to be different charicteristics compared to lets say Marsh land in the Delta or Kaziranga. etc. (02-17-2015, 10:51 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: The crater is with in the Conservation area! No no, chaos is right, young tom is not directly from crater - he is from other part of NCA (02-17-2015, 10:55 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote:(02-17-2015, 10:51 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: The crater is with in the Conservation area! The crater lies in the NCA http://www.ngorongorocrater.org/ I don't know what part of the NCA he is from, but I just know they are all in the NCA. Edit: I found where he is from. Where is this in proximity to the Crater? "In mid-October, however, Ingela and staff from the local Ndutu Lodge were notified that an injured, male lion had been spotted lying under a tree in the Ngorongoro’s Hugo Valley area. " If you google map it, it is right dead center of the NCA https://www.google.com/maps/search/Ngoro...7150206,7z (02-17-2015, 11:05 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: Edit: I found where he is from. ...so he is not directly from the crater... btw please don't quote huge chunks of texts, it wastes space on the page and isn't aesthetically pleasing. :-) (02-17-2015, 11:32 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote:(02-17-2015, 11:05 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: Edit: I found where he is from. It was a pretty small quote. So please tell me the difference between the "Ngorongoro’s Hugo Valley area" and the "Ngorongoro's Crater". What is the distance between them, where is one located compared to the other? I have been able to find the Lodge but not the Hugo Valley. (02-17-2015, 11:35 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: It was a pretty small quote. but your posts above are huge like crater lions :-) I dont know where it is, but I found nothing like Hugo Valley in the crater. BTW Ndutu area is at the border with Serengeti. ...btw photos and videos of young tom are again one nice example of how misleading they are - because young tom looks like quite robust felid...and 146 kg is not much for a lion of that age. But perhaps he was in bad shape when weighted (injured) and the photos and videos are taken later... (02-17-2015, 11:39 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote: but your posts above are huge like crater lions :-) There you go [img]images/smilies/tongue.gif[/img] You can actually see his size when captured as well. The lodge is on the border but that is not where he was found, that is who was called to check on it. http://www.panthera.org/blog/young-tom-t...and-rescue Scroll through to see him during capture, sedation and release. He doesn't look skinny during capture that is for sure, especially the image of him with the female vet in front. He has some nice sized limbs on him. 146 kg is a decent size for a Tom of 4 years of age, nothing special by any means but he could still put on another 50+kg of size in the next 4-6 years. He is from the Masek Pride, so I will look up where they are inside the NCA. (02-17-2015, 11:52 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: 146 kg is a decent size for a Tom of 4 years of age, nothing special by any means but he could still put on another 50+kg of size in the next 4-6 years.50+ kg? Oh no...at this age he probably wont be any longer or taller...and he is already quite massive. Give him 20-30 kg max. BTW I know about one amur tiger who is around 220 kg at the age of 2. According to you, he should be well over 300 kg in his prime :-) Another example - I think you know the table with the data on growth of 3 bengal tigers (2 males, 1 female). The males were 200 kg at the age of 2...so again..they should hit 300 kg in their prime :-)
Info on the Masek Pride and the Big Marsh Pride
MASEK PRIDE This pride resides near the Masek Area. It appears that the pride is comprised of three females who have taken interest in the Big Marsh Pride males. They have been witnesses climbing trees in the area and are the only lions in the region to do so .In early December, two females from the Masek Pride were seen with Fluffyless from the Big Marsh Pride. They disappeared until mid February when they were seen again near Lake Ndutu within the Olasiti Pride territory. Again, they were with Fluffyless and his brother. http://www.safaridealsafrica.com/flexlea...lions.html THE BIG MARSH PRIDE This is the largest pride with 16 members including 8 cubs, 6 females, and two males—“Fluffyless” and his brother. The camp biologist originally tallied the pride to 13 members, but in late March, a female emerged with two month-old cubs. They named her, Mama Wawili, which means “Mother of Two” in Swahili. The end of March is a difficult time to be born as soon the migration will be making its way north and the food sources will dwindle. The pride is large and well-established, though.Whitey – the matriarch of the Big Marsh Pride is distinctive in her tawny color, which is lighter than the others.All members of the pride have been seen regularly within the marsh territory. The older cubs were about 9 – 10 months old when the camp biologist first began tracking them and the younger cubs were 5 – 6 months old. The two males typically are away from the group courting females from the Olasiti and Masek prides.  (02-17-2015, 10:41 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote:(02-17-2015, 07:59 PM)'chaos' Wrote: Not for nothing, but Ammons comment is an opinion and Grizzlies comment don't even pertain to my argument ~~ Thats all...there is no reason to be angry or unfriendly...for me personally this site is a place for pleasant relaxation after stressful work, so please avoid negative emotions :-) No malice on my end. There's enough familiarity amongst us to realize no harm intended. (02-17-2015, 11:59 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote:(02-17-2015, 11:52 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: 146 kg is a decent size for a Tom of 4 years of age, nothing special by any means but he could still put on another 50+kg of size in the next 4-6 years.50+ kg? Oh no...at this age he probably wont be any longer or taller...and he is already quite massive. Give him 20-30 kg max. I don't like to use any captive weights for Amurs (if that is what you're quoting) just because they do so well there and I am not sure if that is actually due to the fact that they can put quite a bit of fat in captivity compared to their wild counterparts. I don't think its unreasonable to put on another 40kg or so by the time he reached 8. But that is what peter and I are talking about now, we should start to take note the amount of varience in size of animals in different age group and how much they actually put on as the reach their prime age and what exactly that might be. (02-17-2015, 10:44 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote:(02-17-2015, 06:00 AM)'tigerluver' Wrote: Peer-reviewed papers must be intrinsically respected, but they are not necessarily the final, undeniable word. ~~btw chaos...for a lion fan it could be quite "dangerous" (lol) to blindly follow articles published in peer-reviewed papers :-) Thats odd, because I'm not feeling any sense of dread. Truth is certain people get very uncomfortable when anything positive about lions is posted.(size, hunting potential, fighting prowess) Its entertaining. This is not intended as provocative in nature, but a simple observation. Why is that? We are all adults, correct? |
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