|
The Terai Tiger
|
 (07-02-2019, 10:05 AM)Rishi Wrote: Actual comparative size of tigers would be very hard to tell. Take for example the above male & Wagdoh. I think the other Terai males like the ones below are much larger than the above male tiger. Compare the Terai tigers below with Wagdoh by using the dimension of the center of Maruti wheels track, you can see their size overlaps.  (07-02-2019, 10:05 AM)Rishi Wrote: Actual comparative size of tigers would be very hard to tell. Take for example the above male & Wagdoh.Grass and track size look different from both photos and to me Waghdoh looks smaller. Also when you see them from behind Wagdoh is much leaner compared to these Dudhwa boys. I have also posted a few videos of Dudhwa/Pilibhit Tigers and they look to be some of the largest cats I've seen on video as well. Even tail circumference is a good indicator and while Dudhwa Tigers may have thicker fur they also have thicker tails regardless. In regards to frame size, from what I've heard Waghodh isn't anything special in terms of height, he is said to be long though but trying to determine an inch or two difference from a fleeting glimpse is tough. Watch videos of Wagdoh and these boys and I think you'll notice a difference fairly fast when it comes to robustness and frame size looks comparable to me. Videos of Dudhwa males Watch the last one I labelled "Big Fella" He seems to be a a giant cat. https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-large-m...1#pid71571 But that being said, the one person who's seen both Gulrighat and Umarpani wouldn't say which is larger but did say that Dudhwa Tigers should be competing with the largest Tigers in C. India, Kanha Cats. (07-02-2019, 08:15 AM)Ashutosh Wrote: @RoflcoptersDudhwa does have 4 different Deer species including Sambar and Barasingha and it also has Boar and Nilgali as well. It is missing large Bovine like Gaur and Water Buffalo but the reintroduced Rhino have fallen victim to Tigers and being semi Wild could mean they are easier to prey on than a fully Wild Rhino. Elephant also make their way into the park too. I also assume Dudhwa is cooler than most parks in C. India with more consistent rainfall and more elevation but you'd know better than I. Kaziranga is it's own special place, it's a small park comparatively but holds a very unique landscape and fauna. The males there look very large as well but tbh I still would probably Favor Terai Tigers over them but they definitely can compete.  (07-02-2019, 04:25 PM)Pckts Wrote: Grass and track size look different from both photos... No... you can get frame size. The actual one, not estimations from photos & videos. That's why i'm refering to the tracks, because you can actually get measurements with considerable accuracy. Yep, you can get the numbers as long as the animal's are crossing the track at right angle. Irrespective of how wide the safari track is, there's one distance that can never change, the distance between Maruti Gypsys wheels, be it wide tracks...  *This image is copyright of its original author ...or narrow ones.  *This image is copyright of its original author That distance is static, it's 1210 cm. Consider some ±20cm variation due to vegetation.  *This image is copyright of its original author So. it need not be about how an animals size looks or seems like... There's no need to guesstimate when one can have a yardstick to measure with & get numbers. I intend to start a seperate thread shortly, but for now take an example with those three. Resized by the track-width, the first two photos are very comparable as both tigers are at same angle & photos have been from same angle. The third one by @johnny rex however is not comparable that way due to major difference in camera angle & the animal's posture too. The closest you can come is match the width of the track at its front paws like the others.  *This image is copyright of its original author
(07-02-2019, 04:25 PM)Pckts Wrote: But that being said, the one person who's seen both Gulrighat and Umarpani wouldn't say which is larger but did say that Dudhwa Tigers should be competing with the largest Tigers in C. India, Kanha Cats. Anyway a comparison between those two-three individuals was not my point... What i'm saying is when you see a set of camera-trap photos, then there's no noticeable difference in size between any of the populations, if there is any. The stature varies a bit, but a random tiger from terai or northeast, could very easily pass of as a random tigers from elsewhere. Nor does a big tiger from the north, atleast look, any bigger than a big central India's one. I don't know why everyone finds them to be so big, but most of them like Gulrighat or Charger, look nothing special compared to other dominant males. Then there's the matter robustness & size. I found out how big an issue this could be some time ago... See, the Kathmandu Central Zoo in Nepal has a massive looking male. His photos have been shared here before with just the captions. (Know this one, @Jimmy?)  *This image is copyright of its original author Impressed by his robustness, i did some digging & multiple eye-witnesses told me that this one was no larger than a german shephard dog. He was even shorter than his mates. That & my experience with captive Sundarban tigers have made me very wary about assuming size based of photos, videos, or even naked sight. Half the people who've seen both Sundarban & Terai tigers in wild would swear they noticed no size difference. The Kazi & Dudhwa-Pilibhit "giant"s could all be below 1m high & we could all be under complete misconception.
Track size can be dependent on many factors.
Old tracks will be more worn down compared to newer ones. Erratic driving and passing leads to larger tracks and long or short grass surrounding the tracks will all play roles. Picking where one track begins and another ends is also flawed since all tracks are ran over time and time again so picking out tracks that belong to a single vehicle is impossible. When it comes to eye witness accounts, I'll take them over a camera trap photo any day. Most people can tell which cats are larger unless they are close in size, mass is even easier to tell. Then when you're talking about people who've seen 100s in their lifetime, their word holds even more weight. For instance  *This image is copyright of its original author In regards to peole who've seen Sunderban and terai tigers, I'd be very skeptical of that claim. I've never seen anyone say they are the same size let alone half of all people who've seen both, Sunderban tigers are also very hard to spot and even harder to get close too, compared to terai Tigers which are far more known and seen closer much more often. Lastly is this, watch videos of Tadoba Females next to jeeps compared to Kanha ones for instance, their size difference is easily noticeable. Look at muscle mass and head size of Kanha males compared to Tadoba males and you'll see the same. I only got to see a few of each but the size difference was noticeable for sure but I know quite a few who've seen many of the famous C. Indian Tigers and they say the same as well. The only park that I've ever heard of having comparably sized cats to Kanha in C. India is Bandhavgarh and even then its fewer than most who say it. There is definitely a difference in Cat physiology between parks, some are more pronounced than others but I have no doubt that certain parks will produce larger animals. I've seen it with my own eyes and you go to these parks and you can tell right away that some have more going for them than others.  (07-06-2019, 07:48 AM)Rishi Wrote:(07-02-2019, 04:25 PM)Pckts Wrote: But that being said, the one person who's seen both Gulrighat and Umarpani wouldn't say which is larger but did say that Dudhwa Tigers should be competing with the largest Tigers in C. India, Kanha Cats. My old profile was deleted for no reason so I made a new one. Anyways coming back to the point, I won't state my opinion as growing up seeing Terai Tigers I might be termed off as being biased but there are some things that I don't agree with at all. 1. The example of the zoo tiger from Nepal is a flawed one. You talk about how videos could be misleading and yet you believe eye-witnesses regarding the small size of this tiger. If these people from the zoo can be believed then someone like Dr. Wasif Jamshed can be believed too. Now his tiger from Dudhwa might not be 340 KG but still must be close to that figure and that animal cannot be a small or short one. 2. Let's talk about size. I do agree that videos can be very misleading. I remember being a fan of wrestling when I was a kid and not really realizing how big a typical wrestler can be. Then when I went to a show I saw the really huge one's stand out easily. Same applies to Tigers. Normal individuals might be difficult to identify but an exceptional individual from close will be easy to spot as a big Tiger. Now there might be something to Terai and Kaziranga tigers that even people like Valmik Thapar, Dr. Raghu Chundawat have talked about the exceptional size of these tigers. It's simply because they are big. One example is the video of the fight between Umarpani and MB2. It's just easy to not miss that Umarpani had a significant size advantage over his rival. Another example is from @Pckts journey where he saw Link 8 female and in a matter of seconds he realized it was the biggest female cat he'd ever seen. Exceptional individuals are easy to figure out with the naked eye and most of Tiger experts have claimed that Terai and Kaziranga tigers are on some other level. 3. The gypsy theory has been talked about in Pckts post so I won't talk about it again. 4. The Sunderbans and Terai tigers being the same size for one is claim taken too far. And talking about half of the people who've seen both believe that is again something I don't agree with as never in my life have I heard that from anyone. 5. Again I don't want to be coming off as a Terai Tigers fanboy. I myself agree that the best specimen from Kanha or even Bandipur in the south will match up to most of the tigers from Terai and Kaziranga but on average Terai and Kaziranga has an edge and even the history points towards that. (Even the Hasinger Tiger was from the Dudhwa Region) 
I second that, how do you tell the difference between a dude that’s 6”6 or 6”9 just by looking at a picture. everyone is built differently, same way it works for tigers. tigers from Central India are generally shorter in length and height as compared to the individuals in the North and this isn’t an opinion, it’s facts. there is no way to really tell the difference just by looking at pictures so i think if anything you’re contradicting yourself from your own statements. you’re basically doing a comparison in your own head and you’re seeing them even. there’s a lot of factors. I think what matters the most is the eye witnesses more than the pictures themselves. when KZT023’s picture was posted, Kanwar Juneja had already seen most of the big males from Central India and he had made it clear. they did not even compare, not even Prime Wagdoh, Bamera or any of the males from Central India for that matter. Dr.Raghu Chundawat himself witnessed 3 living legends and performed check ups on them and he himself admits, the Northern Breed is on a level of it’s own, Dr. Valmik Thappar has been involved for many decades and his biggest bengal tiger he ever saw was from Kaziranga. statements like that are legendary because they have seen tiger from almost every part of the country and they’re able to tell the obvious. also based on records. whatever i have said supports this. in all honesty, i think it’s the Central Indian tigers that are slightly overrated just because they’re followed the most. i believe tigers from South and Central are more or less rivals in size, Northern Bengals are just different al together, body patterns, height, longer body and just overall larger animals. this is undeniable. what’s the most overrated tiger in India right now? I think the answer is obvious and those Kanha Fanboys are responsible for it, no wonder i can’t follow the TOK group. I’m all for learning but all the bullcrap fanatcism isn’t really my cup of tea. I’m neutral but i do know the very obvious and i do acknowledge what i see and have seen. tigers from Terai and Assam are uncontested and not many tigers from South or Central India can compare on average.
also i’m willing to bet anything (if you prove me wrong, i’ll paypal you money.) we were the very first group of people back in yuku days that did picture comparisons and i’m talking back in 2007-2008. once i realized how flawed that concept was, we abandoned the ship. It’s not all just pictures, it’s also what the eye witnesses have seen. every tiger from every park is different and that’s a fact. there is no way those Kanha/Pench tigers compare to the likes of Gulrighat, KZT023, KZT085, Sathiana range male or Kauvia Ghatia. they sit comfortably on top and are the best representatives of their kinds. the record breaking specimens have also been recorded from Up North. you can also turn this argument any way you like, even the prey density supports this, nicer habitat, tall grass and bigger prey selection. It’s all tipped in the favor of Northern Males. just my two cents.  (07-07-2019, 12:31 AM)SuSpicious Wrote: My old profile was deleted for no reason so I made a new one.We can not find how it got deleted, can you tell me the exact same name of your old profile ? Also, can you point to any thread or post where you made posting using your old profile, I want to help you in getting your old profile
https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-modern-weights-and-measurements-on-wild-tigers?page=14#post_56289
I don’t know if this helps, post #202 was from his original account.
Kishanpur tiger. Source: http://jairmohan.blogspot.com/2018/06/ki...rness.html
 *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author (07-06-2019, 04:56 PM)Pckts Wrote: Picking where one track begins and another ends is also flawed since all tracks are ran over time and time again so picking out tracks that belong to a single vehicle is impossible. Because they're formed by vehicles passing hundreds of times, the wearing away of grass & floor-vegetation on both sides should be equal where the ground is flat & straight... in theory, atleast in the more lush areas.  *This image is copyright of its original author Can't be said for sure obviously, but the next time i'm anywhere near a forest with safari tracks, i'll be having a measuring tape. I know the ideal number to look for. All it would take is a few tries at different places.  (07-07-2019, 12:34 PM)Roflcopters Wrote: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-modern-weights-and-measurements-on-wild-tigers?page=14#post_56289 Will respond to that question (referring to post 202 in the modern weights thread) in some detail soon. Everything I have (including genes) strongly suggests tigers in northern India and Nepal (as well as northeast India) are different from those in central and southern India. It's a bit like with lions and tigers: you can find reliable information about large individuals (referring to lions) in just about every region (same in tigers), but (Indian) tigers do it more often. Furthermore, region, in contrast to lions, seems to be more important in tigers, meaning you'll find large individuals in some regions more often than in others. The best way to answer the question is to use averages. As there's, apart from a few reports here and there, nothing on tigers today, I've no option but to use historic info. In order to prevent clicking and loss of info, I'll respond in the tiger thread. All can help by posting recent info on length and weight in that thread. A few pics also help. *This image is copyright of its original author Perfect picture for what I mean, notice the jeep on the left hand side of the road but the tracks suggest jeeps drive down the center. This shows that roads get worn down and cannot necessarily give you an accurate measuring scale. Especially in different locations which will have different tire tracks depending on all the factors we've discussed. If we could have a Tiger crossing right in front of it or in the exact same spot then you can get a much more accurate measurement since you'd be able to use the size of the Jeep to scale it.  tigertrailsbyanthony- First jungle safari with our guests & they got this awesome sighting at Corbett . She carried the kill right to her (07-07-2019, 06:03 AM)sanjay Wrote:(07-07-2019, 12:31 AM)SuSpicious Wrote: My old profile was deleted for no reason so I made a new one.We can not find how it got deleted, can you tell me the exact same name of your old profile ? It had almost the same name 'SuSpiciouS'. I have no idea how or why it got deleted. I was resisting coming back to the website but this discussion was something I wanted to be a part of so made a new profile again. If my old profile can be recovered great, otherwise I will just use this new one. Thanks |
| Users browsing this thread: |
| 13 Guest(s) |