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Persian Leopard (Panthera pardus saxicolor)

Oman Lycaon Offline
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A big male in Khar turan national park

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United States Styx38 Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-18-2019, 09:43 AM by Styx38 Edit Reason: had to add in more info )

@Pckts 

1) That Sambar bull (possibly 300+ kg) kill was impressive, along with the occasional sambar hinds (I even posted one on the leopard predation thread).  I guess you could post that kill if anyone tries to prove the Mountain Lion is better by actually similar sized Rocky Mountain Bull elk kills.

Anyway, you made a contradiction here:

Pckts Wrote:Who points out?
If you're only speaking on one study where it says that Kill Sites only showed Juveniles (Only 16 of 50 were fresh) while Scat Samples showed the 2nd most abundant prey item as being Sambar and of course there is no way to know what Age or Sex is in the scat sample.


and 

Pckts Wrote:Sambar were found to be the 2nd most preyed item in the GIR per scat *Lion Dominated*[/quore]





Pckts Wrote:Again, it has to do with prey size, location and tree availability.


And this study states its correlated with spotted hyenas:


*This image is copyright of its original author


Source: Larger Carnivores of the African Savannas By Jacobus du P. Bothma, Clive Walker





Pckts Wrote:"Same thing with Persian leopards and adult Maral deer and Sri Lankan Leopard with Sambar deer (or an Indian Leopard and Sambar deer in Tiger-less habitat)."


^ Nice cherrypicking of my quote. 

"For example, the leopards in the Congo have been known to kill adult Okapi, at least more frequently than Savanna Leopards have been known to take on adult zebra.

There are some occasional instances of plains leopards killing something as big animals like adult zebra, but that is quite rare, while there were many more observations and records of Rainforest Leopards taking down similar sized Okapi despite being lesser studied, documented and photographed.
Same thing with Persian leopards and adult Maral deer and Sri Lankan Leopard with Sambar deer (or an Indian Leopard and Sambar deer in Tiger-less habitat)."

^In case anyone didn't see this was part of my argument: frequency of big kills. 

We know they can make occasional large kills in the carnivore dominated areas.  The question: How often can they get away with big kills with other serious competitors?

For example, in a Tiger dominated area, a Leopard made a rare adult female sambar kill, but still less compared to the total amount of young and juvenile kills (6.4% juvenile/subadult kills vs. 1.8% adult kill):


*This image is copyright of its original author


http://etheses.saurashtrauniversity.edu/804/1/majmudar_a_thesis_wildlife%20science_red..pdf


Now in a place where Tigers were briefly extirpated, a Leopard made more adult male and female sambar kills than subadults or fawns ( 15% and 31% adults vs 11% subadults)



*This image is copyright of its original author



Now in a place where there are no major competitors, a Leopard made more adult male sambar kills ( 3 adults vs 1 juvenile/subadult) :



*This image is copyright of its original author



^ I am not stating that a Leopard necessarily prefers adults, but the frequency of tackling adults (especially stags that can reach over 300 kg) seems to occur in places where they freely eat without any competitors usurping a large kill.'

This study here states that Leopards shifted more to larger ungulates (higher frequency of large kills without interruption) as soon Tigers were extirpated:

"The contribution of rodent in leopard’s diet was 44.2% in 1990, when the study area was largely occupied by tigers (Sankar & Johnsingh 2002), but after the local extermination of tiger from the study area (2007-08), Mondal et al. (2011) found no contribution of rodent in leopard’s diet. Later, after the re-introduction of tiger in the study area (in 2009), the contribution of rodent in leopard’s diet raised to 5.4% (Table III). In 1990, chital contributed maximum in tiger diet (57.2%) followed by sambar (18.1%) and in leopard diet, rodent contributed maximum (44.2%) followed by chital (20.2%), sambar (19.4%) and nilgai (7%). But after the local extermination of tiger from the study area, the diet of leopard changed significantly. The contribution of sambar and nilgai in leopard’s diet increased to 40.3% and 11.5% respectively in 2007-08, when there was no tiger in the study area (Mondal et al. 2011) (Table III). It was evident that, leopard shifted their diet from lesser prey species. to large ungulates after tiger extermination from Sariska (Sankar et al. 2009; Mondal et al. 2011)"


The study indicates that one reason Leopards prefer smaller prey is to gain enough nutrients without any thieving from lions:

"High consumption of langur occurred cause of arboreality and crypticity of leopards where they can consume its food without fear of coexisting competitor [5]. Although, it was reported as an alternative preferable prey of leopards in case of prey scarcity [51] which contrasted to our findings in presence of abundant potential prey species. Selection of peafowl or other supplementary small to smaller prey taxa seems reasonable for energy gain per hunting efforts, maximize the resource leopard has for survival when lost immediate hunting to lion [6]. "



Speaking of biomass, what is the difference between a Leopard killing a few 15-60 kg animals in one area vs. several more 15-60 kg animals in another area?

Wouldn't the leopard actually have more time to replenish its lost energy, and gain a better amount of meat in an area without other serious carnivores (as in a higher chance of losing a 15-60 kg animal to a lion/tiger/hyena).

They Savanna Leopard and the Central African/Persian/Sri Lankan Leopard can get enough of their mid-sized meals as long as they live in a healthy ecosystem:




*This image is copyright of its original author




Pckts Wrote:They don't, hence why you have Skulls that have scored higher with weights that match. How exactly have they produced larger individuals if their Skull size and weights have been matched or beaten?

If you mean they produce larger individuals more often, then yes, I agree.
But again, Africa is comprised of 1000s of Leopards, of course they'll have a much larger range since Africa encompasses the entire continent and has many different ecosystems that will affect prey preferences compared to the minimal # of Persian  Leopards


Not the best argument since Persian Leopards will still have larger individuals in proportion per population. For example, the average Swedish man is taller than the average Chinese man, but due to the huge population of China, there will be more 6+ foot men just by raw numbers.
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United States Pckts Offline
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Quote:Anyway, you made a contradiction here:

Pckts Wrote: Wrote:Who points out?
If you're only speaking on one study where it says that Kill Sites only showed Juveniles (Only 16 of 50 were fresh) while Scat Samples showed the 2nd most abundant prey item as being Sambar and of course there is no way to know what Age or Sex is in the scat sample.


and 

Pckts Wrote: Wrote:Sambar were found to be the 2nd most preyed item in the GIR per scat *Lion Dominated*[/quore]
Where exactly did I contradict my self?
You used Kill sites to claim only Juveniles where taken and of those kill sites, only 16 were even considered fresh, the rest were old and rotting carcasses. 
My point was, Scat samples have no way of telling the age or sex of the prey taken, but considering that Sambar were the 2nd most common prey species in scat, it's safe to assume that some were adults as we have already seen Leopards take adult Sambar from varies parks dominated by both, Lions and Tigers.

 
Quote:"For example, the leopards in the Congo have been known to kill adult Okapi, at least more frequently than Savanna Leopards have been known to take on adult zebra.

There are some occasional instances of plains leopards killing something as big animals like adult zebra, but that is quite rare, while there were many more observations and records of Rainforest Leopards taking down similar sized Okapi despite being lesser studied, documented and photographed.
Same thing with Persian leopards and adult Maral deer and Sri Lankan Leopard with Sambar deer (or an Indian Leopard and Sambar deer in Tiger-less habitat)."

First off, Okapi are smaller than Zebra and 2ndly, the amount of Kills contributed by either are statistically insignificant but the taking of their Fawn aren't and with a much higher biomass, adult Zebra, sub adult and fawn all fall victims to Leopards in the C/E Africa far more often than Okapi do to Congo Basin Leopards.

Quote:"The contribution of rodent in leopard’s diet was 44.2% in 1990, when the study area was largely occupied by tigers (Sankar & Johnsingh 2002), but after the local extermination of tiger from the study area (2007-08), Mondal et al. (2011) found no contribution of rodent in leopard’s diet. Later, after the re-introduction of tiger in the study area (in 2009), the contribution of rodent in leopard’s diet raised to 5.4% (Table III). In 1990, chital contributed maximum in tiger diet (57.2%) followed by sambar (18.1%) and in leopard diet, rodent contributed maximum (44.2%) followed by chital (20.2%), sambar (19.4%) and nilgai (7%). But after the local extermination of tiger from the study area, the diet of leopard changed significantly. The contribution of sambar and nilgai in leopard’s diet increased to 40.3% and 11.5% respectively in 2007-08, when there was no tiger in the study area (Mondal et al. 2011) (Table III). It was evident that, leopard shifted their diet from lesser prey species. to large ungulates after tiger extermination from Sariska (Sankar et al. 2009; Mondal et al. 2011)



A study comparing prey selection based off of Scat Samples from 1990 to another one in 2008 leave a lot of questions. What methods are they comparing, which areas, age and sex, what was the biomass, etc. 
Again, I'm also speaking on African Leopards, the contribution of Sambar to Indian Leopards diet is only being discussed because you said initially they don't hunt Sambar.
I agree that if an Apex Predator suddenly goes missing the prey it hunts will see an increase in numbers and the smaller carnivore should see a benefit in this. Whether it'd be from adults or the increase in young, either way it should benefit other predators that no longer have to worry about larger competitors. Does this somehow become more important than having the largest supply of Ungulates on earth?





Quote:Speaking of biomass, what is the difference between a Leopard killing a few 15-60 kg animals in one area vs. several more 15-60 kg animals in another area?

Wouldn't the leopard actually have more time to replenish its lost energy, and gain a better amount of meat in an area without other serious carnivores (as in a higher chance of losing a 15-60 kg animal to a lion/tiger/hyena).

They Savanna Leopard and the Central African/Persian/Sri Lankan Leopard can get enough of their mid-sized meals as long as they live in a healthy ecosystem:

There is no difference, except that the available prey with in the prime weight is much higher in one area compared to another and thus offers far more options.


Without larger carnivores it should benefit a Leopard, will it benefit a Leopard more than having the highest prey biomass on earth, I don't think so. 
This is and has always been my point. And when the prey biomass is that high both cats coexist and thrive

"given the relationships between predator density

and prey biomass, when the preferred prey of
these species increases in abundance so will the
predators (van Orsdol et al.1985;Fuller et al.1992;
Hayward et al. 2007d)."


"Although intense competitors, there is no evidence
that lions and hyaenas limit each other’s population
abundance and so there is no predicted response.
Leopards prefer and take prey smaller than that of
other guild members and this, coupled with their
use of denser habitats and adaptability, suggests
they will be largely unaffected by variation in
competitor levels"
http://www.the-eis.com/data/literature/Prey%20preferences%20and%20dietary%20overlap%20amongst%20Africas%20large%20predators.pdf


"In Chitawan National Park where tigers and leopards co-exist, tigers were recorded utilizing a much

wider range of prey sizes than leopards (Seidensticker
1976). The wild ungulate density in the intensive
study area (102 individuals/km2) is one of the highest
reported density in Indian sub-continent (Mondal
2011) and adequate to support both leopard and reintroduced tiger population in the study area (Sankar
et al. 2009). Though leopards and tigers utilized
the same prey species in the study area, but there
is a difference between the sex and size classes of
prey species, as observed by kill records. "

But again, Indian Leopards have far less to chose from, they live in a jungle habitat which means watering holes are spread out and prey doesn't congregate in the 1000s likes it does in Africa, so in turn they probably do suffer more from an Apex predator compared to their African Cousins. 

Quote:Not the best argument since Persian Leopards will still have larger individuals in proportion per population. For example, the average Swedish man is taller than the average Chinese man, but due to the huge population of China, there will be more 6+ foot men just by raw numbers.
And the reverse is true as well, there will also be way more men 5' or less as well, the averages will even out. Generally become more modest since any outliers can skew numbers more drastically when the specimens used is low. 
Also remember you are comparing the largest weights Available for a single population and you're comparing them to all African Leopards.
If you were to go by locations you can easily find larger or smaller Leopards within certain parks. Again it's going to come down to prey density, terrain, climate and the Individual cat. 

"The prey of leopards varies in different geographical areas. "
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/11250003.2012.687402?needAccess=true&
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United States Styx38 Offline
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Pckts Wrote:You used Kill sites to claim only Juveniles where taken and of those kill sites, only 16 were even considered fresh, the rest were old and rotting carcasses. 
Quote:My point was, Scat samples have no way of telling the age or sex of the prey taken, but considering that Sambar were the 2nd most common prey species in scat, it's safe to assume that some were adults as we have already seen Leopards take adult Sambar from varies parks dominated by both, Lions and Tigers.

Yes. The main guy in the study pointed out it was juveniles.

Pckts Wrote:A study comparing prey selection based off of Scat Samples from 1990 to another one in 2008 leave a lot of questions. What methods are they comparing, which areas, age and sex, what was the biomass, etc. 
Quote:Again, I'm also speaking on African Leopards, the contribution of Sambar to Indian Leopards diet is only being discussed because you said initially they don't hunt Sambar.
I agree that if an Apex Predator suddenly goes missing the prey it hunts will see an increase in numbers and the smaller carnivore should see a benefit in this. Whether it'd be from adults or the increase in young, either way it should benefit other predators that no longer have to worry about larger competitors. Does this somehow become more important than having the largest supply of Ungulates on earth?

Correction: I stated that it was rare to none. I posted the national park studies to point out they usually couldn't find adult sambar kills or a minimal amount of sambar in the leopard's diet at their time period, indicating the frequency of large kills was low. The guys who conducted these studies even doubted that a leopard could actually take down an adult sambar due to low frequency of kills. The kills that showed juveniles only supports the misinformed statements of the author.

Yes. If the animal has uninterrupted access to larger kills, then in a few generations you will find more larger individuals among the population. 

What's the point of the largest supply of ungulates when the leopard usually focuses on small to mid sized animals?

Pckts Wrote:First off, Okapi are smaller than Zebra and 2ndly, the amount of Kills contributed by either are statistically insignificant but the taking of their Fawn aren't and with a much higher biomass, adult Zebra, sub adult and fawn all fall victims to Leopards in the C/E Africa far more often than Okapi do to Congo Basin Leopards.


The adult weights seem somewhat comparable on Wikipedia:


Quote:The okapi is a medium-sized giraffid, standing 1.5 m (4 ft 11 in) tall at the shoulder. Its average body length is about 2.5 m (8 ft 2 in) and its weight ranges from 200 to 350 kg (440 to 770 lb).[19

Adults of both sexes can stand from 1.10 to 1.45 m (3.6 to 4.8 ft) high at the withers, are 2.17 to 2.46 m (7.1 to 8.1 ft) long, not counting a 47-to-56 cm (19-to-22 in) tail, and weigh 175 to 385 kg (386 to 849 lb)

Even if this study is wrong, both the animals touch the 300 kg mark. Same thing with the Sambar Deer.

There are a few instances of Leopards killing adult zebra, but nothing compared to frequency of killing Okapi:


Quote:
  • Leopards represent significant cause of death for adult okapi.


Link: http://library.sandiegozoo.org/factsheet.../okapi.htm but the original source(s) are here: (Spinage 1968) (Bodmer & Rabb 1992)

Also, isn't the Congo considered Central Africa?

There is no difference, except that the available prey with in the prime weight is much higher in one area compared to another and thus offers far more options.



Pckts Wrote:Without larger carnivores it should benefit a Leopard, will it benefit a Leopard more than having the highest prey biomass on earth, I don't think so. 

This is and has always been my point. And when the prey biomass is that high both cats coexist and thrive



"given the relationships between predator density


and prey biomass, when the preferred prey of

these species increases in abundance so will the

predators (van Orsdol et al.1985;Fuller et al.1992;

Hayward et al. 2007d)."





"Although intense competitors, there is no evidence

that lions and hyaenas limit each other’s population

abundance and so there is no predicted response.

Leopards prefer and take prey smaller than that of

other guild members and this, coupled with their

use of denser habitats and adaptability, suggests

they will be largely unaffected by variation in

competitor levels"

http://www.the-eis.com/data/literature/Prey%20preferences%20and%20dietary%20overlap%20amongst%20Africas%20large%20predators.pdf





"In Chitawan National Park where tigers and leopards co-exist, tigers were recorded utilizing a much


wider range of prey sizes than leopards (Seidensticker

1976). The wild ungulate density in the intensive

study area (102 individuals/km2) is one of the highest

reported density in Indian sub-continent (Mondal

2011) and adequate to support both leopard and reintroduced tiger population in the study area (Sankar

et al. 2009). Though leopards and tigers utilized

the same prey species in the study area, but there

is a difference between the sex and size classes of

prey species, as observed by kill records. "


But again, Indian Leopards have far less to chose from, they live in a jungle habitat which means watering holes are spread out and prey doesn't congregate in the 1000s likes it does in Africa, so in turn they probably do suffer more from an Apex predator compared to their African Cousins. 

Your studies still point out that Leopards go for the small prey compared to their bigger or numerous competitors.

While watering holes do bring out a variety of species, doesn't a predator still know where to find its prey?

Pckts Wrote:Also remember you are comparing the largest weights Available for a single population and you're comparing them to all African Leopards.
Quote:If you were to go by locations you can easily find larger or smaller Leopards within certain parks. Again it's going to come down to prey density, terrain, climate and the Individual cat.


If the animal produces more heavy weights in proportion per population, wouldn't that still mean the subspecies is the biggest?

Also, don't forget prey size.
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Oman Lycaon Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-22-2019, 09:14 PM by BorneanTiger )

(05-16-2019, 10:38 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote: Did anyone notice that since North Caucasus, where the Persian or Caucasian leopard is present, is in European Russia, that means that the leopard is in Europe? https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-european-felids

Forward from (https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-europea...7#pid82057), note that the Caucasus is to the east of the Black Sea, and that Anatolia is to the south of the sea. West of the sea lie the Balkans, including Greece: 

https://profwaqarhussain.blogspot.com/20...k-sea.html 

*This image is copyright of its original author


http://davidsbeenhere.com/2015/01/02/languages-balkans/ 

*This image is copyright of its original author


And it appears from the work of Homer that the leopard occurred in Greece, like the lion, lynx and bear: https://www.researchgate.net/publication...cal_record 
   

The twist is this, the Asiatic lion, which currently survives in India, and used to inhabit Anatolia and the Caucasus (https://archive.org/stream/mammalsofsov2...0/mode/2up), and is believed to be the same race as the Greek or European lion (https://books.google.com/books?id=TX7BmP...&q&f=false, https://books.google.com/books?id=GWslAA...on&f=false). If the European lion that occurred to the west of the Black Sea is the same race as the Asiatic lion, which occurred to the south and west of the sea, then is the Greek or European leopard, which occurred to the west of the sea, the same race as the Anatolian or Caucasian leopard (bearing in mind that both have been grouped as Panthera pardus tulliana, Pages 73–75: https://repository.si.edu/bitstream/hand...sAllowed=y)?
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United States Styx38 Offline
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Can anybody here translate this Persian documentary of the Leopard?





^ There is a cow kill at 2:46, and the Caspian Red Deer kill at 17:55

At first I thought that the was a large hind, but if you look closer, it may actually be a stag going thorough the seasonal pre-antler growth stage:



*This image is copyright of its original author




look at this deer antler growth stage:





^ You can see the growth stage from 0:12-0:16 looks quite similar to the red deer.

If this is confirmed as a stag, then this might truly be one of the biggest Leopard kills caught on video.

Caspian Red Deer weights from wikipedia:


Quote:The Caspian red deer is around 4 feet 6 inches (1.37 m) tall, and can weigh 500 to 700 pounds (230 to 320 kg). 

In some hunting sites, the Maral Stag can weigh around 300-350 kg.

If the video  can be translated, there may be more info we can gain for the subspecies, as well as the gender and possible size of the Maral Deer kill.
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@Styx38 
Quote:What's the point of the largest supply of ungulates when the leopard usually focuses on small to mid sized animals?
It has the largest biomass of small to midsized ungulates "Leopard" prey as well.

Quote:Even if this study is wrong, both the animals touch the 300 kg mark. Same thing with the Sambar Deer.

There are a few instances of Leopards killing adult zebra, but nothing compared to frequency of killing Okapi:
Again, there is no higher frequency of Okapi kills in Leopards diet.
In fact, the one study on Congo Basin Prey selection shows no Okapi predation but high dulkier and red hog but since Okapi are rarer and appear in less places obviously they are going to be not as represented. But again, you're comparing a rare animal to Wildebeest and Zebra which contribute to the greatest migration on earth. 
And yes, males and sub adults Okapis have been predated on by Leopards but nothing unseen in Zebra, Kudu, Eland, Wildebeest etc.  
Sambar are taller but leaner, Zebra and Wildebeest are similar height but Zebra are even more robust but both are more robust than Sambar. 
Animals come in all shapes and sizes, most aren't near the maximum, they are usually far less impressive than you realize. 
And Zebra still show up just as often enough along with other animals that are larger than Okapi as well.

*This image is copyright of its original author


Quote:Also, isn't the Congo considered Central Africa?

There is no difference, except that the available prey with in the prime weight is much higher in one area compared to another and thus offers far more options.
The Ngorongoro Crater is in Tanzania, same with the Serengeti, Selous and Tarangire.
All of which show major differences in terrain, climate and animal biomass.

In Central Africa you can go from the Rainforests in the Congo Basin *which all have different habitats* to the Okavanga Delta in Botswana and so on.
Africa is gigantic, the parks are very different from one another.
Even with in a park, the terrain and habitat can change drastically, for instance in the Serengeti you have an area called the Ndutu Plains that looks like an oasis, out of no where there are year round water bodies and its like something you'd see in paradise. In Kanha, you can go from one zone like Kilsi which is relatively flat with Meadows then you can go to the Sarhi Zone which is extremely hilly and dense vegetation with higher elevation.



Another example of the importance of prey biomass is this one right here that you like to use

*This image is copyright of its original author

If you notice in this exact study, when these parks were compared to the Serengeti in Leopard Density, they weren't close. This also coming from a park which has one of the highest populations of Lions on earth and reason why has to do with the prey biomass. 
Like the mention in the study, Prey biomass is small in the Kalahari, the vegetation is sparse and spread about, this is completely different compared to the Serengeti. 
Also in that study they speak on how rarely a Leopards kill was actually lost to another predator. 

Quote:If the animal produces more heavy weights in proportion per population, wouldn't that still mean the subspecies is the biggest?

Also, don't forget prey size.
How would we know per population?
You have a few at 80+ kgs and many more at 50+kg and their average per population is no different at the moment than other locations.
You are talking about a handful of individuals compared to 1000s of Africans and you have numerous Leopards from all over Africa that have matched.
But again, all that being said, I have always said that Persians are probably the largest sub species, at least in frame.


Again, what about prey size?
Average prey size for Persians is no different than anywhere else.

Lastly is that I don't even know what is being discussed anymore.... it's twisting and turning all over the place. 
This discussion started when Liuppard stated Congo Basin Leopards were Jaguar sized and twisted and turned to where we are now.
TBH I'm calling it quits on this topic after this for bit.
No new information is being presented nor will our point of views change.
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United States Styx38 Offline
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@Pckts 

Yes. We should call it quits. I agree that Pantanal Jaguars will be bigger than all the subspecies of leopards on an average. I also agree that Leopards that are top predators in these areas will produce more large individuals by proportion compared to the other parts.

Forgive me for this part, but I want to refute a few points.

1. Small nitpick, but isn't Botswana considered Southern Africa.

2. The study you posted is not in the Democratic Republic of Congo, since Mandrills are mentioned in the study. Mandrills are found Gabon, West Congo (not part of the DR Congo), and other areas on the West. On the other hand, Okapis are only in the DR of Congo, so they obviously won't appear in the scats.

As mentioned, Leopards are still responsible for the death of adult Okapis. On the other hand, there isn't so much on Leopards killing adult zebra.

In fact, adult zebras are so rare that there is even doubt about leopards being capable of taking them down (just like the Sambar studies I posted):


Quote:Leopards, for example, hunt alone, so it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for a leopard to kill an adult zebra on its own. But they can and do kill zebra foals.

https://www.certapet.com/zebra-attack-baby-zebra/


For Kudu, they can kill Kudu cows, but it will be less frequent than kudu babies since big kills will get stolen by their competitors. This is why rob mentions these are the "biggest", since it will be very rare for them to tackle down anything bigger.










They still pointed out that the density of hyenas is correlated with the amount of leopards hiding their kills up trees. Even if leopards take their kills up trees at less frequency in India, they still focus on smaller prey compared to lions and tigers, especially when they are coexisting.

Think about it. A leopard will invest too much energy in tackling a Zebra, be it mare or stallion. Once it makes the kill, a lion or hyena may take it away before the leopard can replenish its energy and nutrition. That's why leopards usually go for small to mid-sized animals in these areas.

Okapi males seem to be pretty big.

Quote: Females are typically a little heavier at 495 to 770 lbs. (225 to 350 kilograms) while males weigh 440 to 660 lbs. (200 to 300 kg).
https://www.livescience.com/56233-okapi-facts.html

And they have still been observed to kill cows.

You can argue about the zebra looking more robust, but it still won't change the correlation of mass of prey with leopard size.

Quote: Wrote:As the leopard's body mass range crosses the body mass threshold for obligate large vertebrate carnivory (>45% of predator body mass; Carbone et al., 1999), smaller body mass populations of leopards might be expected to prey on smaller vertebrates. Leopards in the Baviaanskloof Wilderness Area in South Africa's Eastern Cape Province support this, with rodents comprising 9% of the total prey species killed (Ott, 2004). Other populations of leopards that prey largely on suboptimally sized prey (Grobler & Wilson, 1972) may also be smaller in body mass than those preying on large ungulates. Limited data from Israel and Oman suggest that small leopards there largely prey on smaller body sized species (Ilani, 1981; Spalton & Willis, 1999).



This is the reason why I posted about mass is because leopards have more frequency of eating large adult ungulates in areas with the absence of competitors. This leads to a greater amount of larger, robust individuals in these areas.

My argument was more frequency of large prey will result in more larger leopards.

I guess since I made my point, and you made yours we should end it.
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Luipaard Offline
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(05-23-2019, 09:49 PM)Pckts Wrote:  This discussion started when Liuppard stated Congo Basin Leopards were Jaguar sized and twisted and turned to where we are now.

No it all started with the size difference between jaguars and leopards overall. Many thought the difference was huge but fact is, there's an overlapping in general with Central African (male) leopards getting close to the larger jaguars. This is based on skull measurements.


*This image is copyright of its original author


6 adult male skulls from Gabon and the surrounding countries averaged 10.2 inches long and 6.6 inches wide (255.4 and 164.6mm). Amazon male jaguars average skull length and width of 262.7 and 175.9mm. Larger male leopards overlap with Pantanal male jaguar skulls.

We all know jaguars have large, broad skulls. I find it very hard to believe that those leopards average 60kg while they have skulls that rival a 80kg Amazon jaguar. 

Here's what I learned after researching:
  • They have a larger appereance and look more robust
  • A Panthera researcher also noticed the above
  • Their average skull size is higher than any other subspecies; the so called largest subspecies, the Persian leopard, only comes close while big South African leopard struggle to reach those averages.
  • Skull measurements are a good indicator to estimate an animal its size
  • Their average skull size overlap with Amazon male jaguars and Pantanal jaguaresses who average between 75-85kg.
  • The larger skulls from these male leopards overlap with Pantanal jaguars
  • They're bigger and more robust becouse they're adapted to tackle larger prey; their primary prey are red river hogs for males and duikers for females
This isn't a new discussion btw. I just wanted to tell everyone my point of view. You have your point of view and I respect that even though we have different opinion regarding this.
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United States Pckts Offline
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Incredible shot







Turn the sound on ^

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"The rates at which prey are killed and consumed are less well understood. Effective management of predator–prey systems largely depends on reliable estimates of these metrics (Knopff et al. 2010). As well as informing predator–prey dynamics (Wegge et al. 2009), they are likely to indicate the extent of conflict with local stockholders (Farhadinia et al. 2014bGhoddousi et al. 2016) and also allow estimation of the nutritional carrying capacity of an area (Hayward et al. 2007Jooste et al. 2013). Detailed knowledge of predation patterns also can reveal individual dietary specialists, which are increasingly recognized as being widespread in predator populations (Lowrey et al. 2016). These attributes of predation are not straightforward to study. Problems with estimating components of predation in previous studies include tracking sessions that are too short (19 days—Odden and Wegge 2009), inadequate sampling of kill sites (Martins et al. 2011), delays in identifying kill sites due to time lapsing before downloading data (Stein et al. 2015), and failure to verify kill sites identified from clusters of movement fixes (Rozhnov et al. 2015)."

Prey characteristics

"Prey species were allocated to 2 size categories. The “small” prey (< 15 kg) included red foxes (Vulpes vulpes), Indian crested porcupines (Hystrix indica), and birds. The “medium” prey (≥ 15 kg) category included urials, bezoar goats, wild pigs, domestic sheep, and domestic dogs. Young wild ungulates and domestic animals were also included in medium-sized prey."



"We found 130 prey items of 10 species that we assigned to 3 categories (Fig. 1Table 1): wild ungulates (urials, bezoar goats, and wild pigs), domestic animals (dogs, sheep), and small animals, such as Indian crested porcupines, red foxes, raptors, pigeons (Columba livia), and chukar partridges (Alectoris chukar). Domestic prey were killed exclusively outside the national park, whereas 96.6% of all wild ungulate kills were within the park (Fig. 1). Nondomestic kills outside the park were urials (n = 3), wild pigs (n = 2), small mammals, and birds (Fig. 1). There was no evidence that prey type was influenced by season, the weight of the last prey item, or the search time since last kill (Table 2)."

"The Persian leopard is one of the largest subspecies (Stein and Hayssen 2013), adult males weigh on average 65.8 kg "

https://academic.oup.com/jmammal/article/99/3/713/4996220
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In complete disbelief, trap cameras built against a water source in Kaboodan Lake, Urumia Lake, were shooting a mature panther.

Most likely, this leopard is the same as the Leopard that was captured on the island of Tear last year, with the fall of water in the past months and connecting the islands to the island of Kaboodan.

The presence of this leopard in the islands of Lake Urmia is very strange because the islands of this lake are not miles away from the Panther's habitat.

It is unclear how and when from where and in which way the leopard has taken itself to the islands of Lake Urmia.

Some Azerbaijani wildlife experts are likely to move from the Sahand Mountains toward the lake, and when it comes to the lake water, it has been taken to the islands.

Fortunately, there is a good population of Armenian ram as a prey for this leopard on Kaboodan Island.

In 1349, the Environmental Protection Organization (EPA) to control the population of Armenian ram on the island of Kaboudan, salvaged a pair of male leopards from Golestan to the island, but both leopards disappeared after a while and the carcasses of one of them discovered.

Iranian Environment Watch
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Luipaard Offline
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( This post was last modified: 07-27-2019, 03:22 PM by Luipaard )

Camera trap captures Persian leopard 

A few days earlier, a villager in Siahkal of Gilan province contacted the environment office of the region to report the finding of his domesticated cow’s carcass after it had gone missing the night before. 

Head of Siahkal Environment Office made the announcement saying “upon receiving the report, experts and foresters headed to the location to conduct further investigation.” 

“Teeth marks and footprints left in place all served as indications to a leopard attack,” said Mirzaei adding “in order to better identify the hunter animal, a camera trap was installed in front of the prey’s carcass.”


*This image is copyright of its original author


When the camera’s memory was analyzed a few days later, images of a huge male leopard were revealed who had revisited its prey in the middle of the night. 

Fortunately, the insightful and nature-friendly farmer had refused to take any arbitrary action against the attacker leopard raising the issue with the environment office of the region instead. 

Given that an insurance company has provided an insurance policy to cover Persian Leopard in coordination with Iran's Department of Environment, the villager will be reimbursed for the loss of his domestic cow.


*This image is copyright of its original author


https://en.mehrnews.com/news/118872/Camera-trap-captures-Persian-leopard
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Persian Leopard Captured alive in NE Iran
The Managing Director of Environment Department of Razavi Khorasan, Touraj Hemmati, said on Sunday that following a series of attacks by a leopard on the herd dogs in a village located on the edge of Tandoureh Protected Area in the north east of Iran, a rescue team was sent to the area to capture the leopard alive to treat him due to the wounds on his body and tooth infection.
He mentioned that Capturing alive of this five-year-old male leopard, which is an unparalleled activity in the country, was successfully done on Saturday evening, adding that this is the third leopard that has been treated during the last year by the health care team and the wildlife recovery in the province.
Persian leopards are among the most endangered species in the world. It has been listed as "endangered" in the red list of the International Union for Conservation of Nature. Iran is one of their main habitats.
Reduced prey population and shrinkage of their natural habitat are threatening the big cats. Bamou National Park in the southern Fars province is one of the main habitats of the Persian leopard.
ZZ/IRN83414027

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://en.mehrnews.com/news/148166/Persian-leopard-captured-alive-in-NE-Iran
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