There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
04-26-2019, 01:39 PM( This post was last modified: 04-26-2019, 01:41 PM by Luipaard )
(04-26-2019, 11:02 AM)Pckts Wrote: I've seen sumatrans in person and what their weights were, that is a tiny sumatran you're comparing it to. Sumatrans I've seen outsize any leopard by quite a margin.
Also, what would it matter? You know Java Tigers are in the 100kg category and that one obviously outsized any leopard we've posted, cherry picking a small tiger to compare to a leopard isn't looking for answers but more so trying to skew a fact to back a claim.
Also, how many times are you going to post the same leopard?
You've already seen numerous leoprd from the S/E Africa who easily match it.
In regards to the hog, as you can see they are warthog sized and obviously that is in a Leopards prime prey category. In fact, leopards are specialized killers of warthogs and deliver a bite to the chest to kill them and avoid their large tusks. Its probably not far fetched to say a warthog is actually more dangerous prey due to the superior tusks they possess.
So whenever I make a comparison, it's cherry picking. Meanwhile you show a Bali tiger and claim that no leopard comes close to its size. Who are you to make those claims?
This leopard seems close in size, of course it's a Central African one from Congo (sorry posting the same leopard):
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Now I what you're gonna say, that it's a wrong comparison becouse of different angle, ... But so is your comparison, holding dead leopards v a dead tiger hold like that.
Only large males predate on warthogs. And again, it's not their main prey unlike Central African males who's main prey are red river hogs. Warthogs are indeed more dangerous, but they don't predate on them on a regluar base.
I don't even know why you're still debating about this. They are larger overall, just look at their skull measurements; they're bigger on average and the largest skulls come from these leopards. That's a good indicator.
04-26-2019, 10:16 PM( This post was last modified: 04-26-2019, 10:19 PM by Shadow )
(04-26-2019, 01:39 PM)Luipaard Wrote:
(04-26-2019, 11:02 AM)Pckts Wrote: I've seen sumatrans in person and what their weights were, that is a tiny sumatran you're comparing it to. Sumatrans I've seen outsize any leopard by quite a margin.
Also, what would it matter? You know Java Tigers are in the 100kg category and that one obviously outsized any leopard we've posted, cherry picking a small tiger to compare to a leopard isn't looking for answers but more so trying to skew a fact to back a claim.
Also, how many times are you going to post the same leopard?
You've already seen numerous leoprd from the S/E Africa who easily match it.
In regards to the hog, as you can see they are warthog sized and obviously that is in a Leopards prime prey category. In fact, leopards are specialized killers of warthogs and deliver a bite to the chest to kill them and avoid their large tusks. Its probably not far fetched to say a warthog is actually more dangerous prey due to the superior tusks they possess.
So whenever I make a comparison, it's cherry picking. Meanwhile you show a Bali tiger and claim that no leopard comes close to its size. Who are you to make those claims?
This leopard seems close in size, of course it's a Central African one from Congo (sorry posting the same leopard):
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Now I what you're gonna say, that it's a wrong comparison becouse of different angle, ... But so is your comparison, holding dead leopards v a dead tiger hold like that.
Only large males predate on warthogs. And again, it's not their main prey unlike Central African males who's main prey are red river hogs. Warthogs are indeed more dangerous, but they don't predate on them on a regluar base.
I don't even know why you're still debating about this. They are larger overall, just look at their skull measurements; they're bigger on average and the largest skulls come from these leopards. That's a good indicator.
I put here one thing which causes criticism from me and I think, that some others see this thing in same way as I do.
This is a very rough picture so, that idea should be crystal clear. Two shapes, both at as long and wide. But I think, that everyone can understand why other one is considered to be larger. So when skulls of different species are compared, it isn´t that simple, that just saying: "These are almost as long and wide, so these animals have to be about same weight". Everyone can guess, which shape represents leopard and which jaguar in this very rough comparison. But it is good to remember, that jaguar skull is described robust, leopard skull slender.
04-26-2019, 10:25 PM( This post was last modified: 04-26-2019, 10:51 PM by Wolverine )
(04-23-2019, 02:12 PM)Shadow Wrote: After all for male leopard 90 kg is on upper limit when looking overall information about them.
Exactly, there is no any reliable record of leopard more than 96-99 kg, while the reliable record for jaguar is 158 kg or weight ratio is 1,6- 1,7 times.
and average weight for male jaguars from Venezuela and Brazil according wiki is 95 kg.
Average weight of male leopards from South Africa (large subspecie) is 63,1 according to Lulaapard is 60-70 kg, = 65 kg. So again weight ratio between jaguar and leopard from large subspecie is 65/95-100 = 1,5 times.
Small subspecies:
Average weight of male jaguar from the smallest subspecies - South Mexico and Central America is 54 kg (Biodiversity and Conservation of the Yucatán Peninsula , edited by Gerald Alexander Islebe, Sophie Calmé, 2010).
Average weight of male of Arabian leopard (smallest subspecie) is 30 kg. So again weight ratio between jaguar and leopard from small subspesie is 1,8 times.
Conclusions. In whatever way we calculate (large subspecie vs large subspecie, small vs small & record vs record), jaguar as specie in general is 1,5-1,8 times more massive than leopard as a specie in general!
(04-23-2019, 02:12 PM)Shadow Wrote: After all for male leopard 90 kg is on upper limit when looking overall information about them.
Exactly, there is no any reliable record of leopard more than 96-99 kg, while the reliable record for jaguar is 158 kg or weight ratio is 1,6- 1,7 times.
and average weight for male jaguars from Venezuela and Brazil according wiki is 95 kg.
Average weight of male leopards from South Africa (large subspecie) is 63,1 according to Lulaapard is 60-70 kg, = 65 kg. So again weight ratio between jaguar and leopard from large subspecie is 65/95-100 = 1,5 times.
Small subspecies:
Average weight of male jaguar from the smallest subspecies - South Mexico and Central America is 54 kg (Biodiversity and Conservation of the Yucatán Peninsula , edited by Gerald Alexander Islebe, Sophie Calmé, 2010).
Average weight of male of Arabian leopard (smallest subspecie) is 30 kg. So again weight ratio between jaguar and leopard from small subspesie is 1,8 times.
Conclusions. In whatever way we calculate (large subspecie vs large subspecie, small vs small & record vs record), jaguar as specie in general is 1,5-1,8 times more massive than leopard as a specie in general!
I never denied the fact that the jaguar is bigger overall. My point is that they overlap, has always been my point.
Quote:Exactly, there is no any reliable record of leopard more than 96-99 kg,
This is reliable, weight chart regarding Persian leopards;
*This image is copyright of its original author
Quote:Average weight of male jaguar from the smallest subspecies - South Mexico and Central America is 54 kg
I have yet to find the average weight of Peruvian jaguars, but two male jaguars from the Peruvian Amazon weighed 31 and 37kg. Now that doesn't mean they average 'only' 35kg, but chances are their average weight is below 54kg. Still larger than the smallest leopard subspecies of course.
Again, I never tried to argue wether the leopard is bigger overall than the jaguar. I'm talking about overlapping in size, with Central African and Persian males (most likely) rivaling Amazon jaguars and average Pantanal males for the larger male leopards of these regions.
(04-23-2019, 02:12 PM)Shadow Wrote: After all for male leopard 90 kg is on upper limit when looking overall information about them.
Exactly, there is no any reliable record of leopard more than 96-99 kg, while the reliable record for jaguar is 158 kg or weight ratio is 1,6- 1,7 times.
and average weight for male jaguars from Venezuela and Brazil according wiki is 95 kg.
Average weight of male leopards from South Africa (large subspecie) is 63,1 according to Lulaapard is 60-70 kg, = 65 kg. So again weight ratio between jaguar and leopard from large subspecie is 65/95-100 = 1,5 times.
Small subspecies:
Average weight of male jaguar from the smallest subspecies - South Mexico and Central America is 54 kg (Biodiversity and Conservation of the Yucatán Peninsula , edited by Gerald Alexander Islebe, Sophie Calmé, 2010).
Average weight of male of Arabian leopard (smallest subspecie) is 30 kg. So again weight ratio between jaguar and leopard from small subspesie is 1,8 times.
Conclusions. In whatever way we calculate (large subspecie vs large subspecie, small vs small & record vs record), jaguar as specie in general is 1,5-1,8 times more massive than leopard as a specie in general!
I never denied the fact that the jaguar is bigger overall. My point is that they overlap, has always been my point.
Quote:Exactly, there is no any reliable record of leopard more than 96-99 kg,
This is reliable, weight chart regarding Persian leopards;
*This image is copyright of its original author
Quote:Average weight of male jaguar from the smallest subspecies - South Mexico and Central America is 54 kg
I have yet to find the average weight of Peruvian jaguars, but two male jaguars from the Peruvian Amazon weighed 31 and 37kg. Now that doesn't mean they average 'only' 35kg, but chances are their average weight is below 54kg. Still larger than the smallest leopard subspecies of course.
Again, I never tried to argue wether the leopard is bigger overall than the jaguar. I'm talking about overlapping in size, with Central African and Persian males (most likely) rivaling Amazon jaguars and average Pantanal males for the larger male leopards of these regions.
Thing has been, that you have used skull measurements as justification to make claims, that some leopards might be quite close to jaguars in average. And it has looked like a try out to say, that weight difference might be less, than usually is considered, imo. And I have explained now why I see problems in that logic. I think, that I´m not only one thinking like that.
Those Persian males (if counting out that 115 kg, which is controversial more or less if I remember right) would be in average about 70 kg in that chart. If that 115 kg is taken there, about 72-73 kg. I guess, that there were somewhere exact weights of these leopards. That of course is quite good average weight when usually leopards are considered be... around 60 kg in average mostly.
More weight information would be good to find. Also good information about correlation between leopard skull size and leopard weight. Not mixing up other species, which aren´t 1:1 comparable even if some measurements of bones might be close. For sure worth to look closer.
(04-23-2019, 02:12 PM)Shadow Wrote: After all for male leopard 90 kg is on upper limit when looking overall information about them.
Exactly, there is no any reliable record of leopard more than 96-99 kg, while the reliable record for jaguar is 158 kg or weight ratio is 1,6- 1,7 times.
and average weight for male jaguars from Venezuela and Brazil according wiki is 95 kg.
Average weight of male leopards from South Africa (large subspecie) is 63,1 according to Lulaapard is 60-70 kg, = 65 kg. So again weight ratio between jaguar and leopard from large subspecie is 65/95-100 = 1,5 times.
Small subspecies:
Average weight of male jaguar from the smallest subspecies - South Mexico and Central America is 54 kg (Biodiversity and Conservation of the Yucatán Peninsula , edited by Gerald Alexander Islebe, Sophie Calmé, 2010).
Average weight of male of Arabian leopard (smallest subspecie) is 30 kg. So again weight ratio between jaguar and leopard from small subspesie is 1,8 times.
Conclusions. In whatever way we calculate (large subspecie vs large subspecie, small vs small & record vs record), jaguar as specie in general is 1,5-1,8 times more massive than leopard as a specie in general!
I never denied the fact that the jaguar is bigger overall. My point is that they overlap, has always been my point.
Quote:Exactly, there is no any reliable record of leopard more than 96-99 kg,
This is reliable, weight chart regarding Persian leopards;
*This image is copyright of its original author
Quote:Average weight of male jaguar from the smallest subspecies - South Mexico and Central America is 54 kg
I have yet to find the average weight of Peruvian jaguars, but two male jaguars from the Peruvian Amazon weighed 31 and 37kg. Now that doesn't mean they average 'only' 35kg, but chances are their average weight is below 54kg. Still larger than the smallest leopard subspecies of course.
Again, I never tried to argue wether the leopard is bigger overall than the jaguar. I'm talking about overlapping in size, with Central African and Persian males (most likely) rivaling Amazon jaguars and average Pantanal males for the larger male leopards of these regions.
Thing has been, that you have used skull measurements as justification to make claims, that some leopards might be quite close to jaguars in average. And it has looked like a try out to say, that weight difference might be less, than usually is considered, imo. And I have explained now why I see problems in that logic. I think, that I´m not only one thinking like that.
Those Persian males (if counting out that 115 kg, which is controversial more or less if I remember right) would be in average about 70 kg in that chart. If that 115 kg is taken there, about 72-73 kg. I guess, that there were somewhere exact weights of these leopards. That of course is quite good average weight when usually leopards are considered be... around 60 kg in average mostly.
More weight information would be good to find. Also good information about correlation between leopard skull size and leopard weight. Not mixing up other species, which aren´t 1:1 comparable even if some measurements of bones might be close. For sure worth to look closer.
The 115kg is indeed controversial, I'm not even counting that male to be honest. But still, chances are he's still within the 90-100kg mark.
Too bad there's few documentation regarding the larger subspecies (Central African & Persian). All we can rely on are skull measurements becouse they're a good indicator. Time will tell how big these leopards really are.
As for Marlon Dutoit, she's probably been on safari in some South African regions, that female jaguar is indeed larger than any big male in that region (exceptional males like Anderson, Camp pan, Ottawa, ... might rival her). Again, jaguars are indeed the bigger cat overall. But like cougars, leopards also overlap in size with jaguars, even the larger jaguars (Pantanal and Amazon ones).
04-27-2019, 02:52 AM( This post was last modified: 04-27-2019, 03:01 AM by Pckts )
(04-27-2019, 02:45 AM)Luipaard Wrote: Here's a more impressive Persian leopard than that Pantanal jaguaress. Look at his massive skull @0:30
I'm not sure where you got that from, the leopard looks normal body sized for a Male.
You need to see good sized males in person to appreciate what a 70kg Leopard actually looks like.
Edit: I found a treasure trove of old Jaguars photos that will be great for comparison. I'll post them tomorrow and you can post the Leopards that you think match up.
(04-27-2019, 02:45 AM)Luipaard Wrote: Here's a more impressive Persian leopard than that Pantanal jaguaress. Look at his massive skull @0:30
I'm not sure where you got that from, the leopard looks normal body sized for a Male.
You need to see good sized males in person to appreciate what a 70kg Leopard actually looks like.
Edit: I found a treasure trove of old Jaguars photos that will be great for comparison. I'll post them tomorrow and you can post the Leopards that you think match up.
He looks large with a massive skull size. Not sure why you're overlooking that. But you've done that before so no surprise.
Persian have one of the biggest skulls, only Central African males best them. As you should know, it's a good indicator to estimate an animal its size. Same applies to these Central African males; their average skull size is higher than a South African male and the biggest skulls in the world are from these males. Tell me, what makes you think they're mediocre and will average 65kg with such huge skulls?
(04-27-2019, 02:45 AM)Luipaard Wrote: Here's a more impressive Persian leopard than that Pantanal jaguaress. Look at his massive skull @0:30
I'm not sure where you got that from, the leopard looks normal body sized for a Male.
You need to see good sized males in person to appreciate what a 70kg Leopard actually looks like.
Edit: I found a treasure trove of old Jaguars photos that will be great for comparison. I'll post them tomorrow and you can post the Leopards that you think match up.
He looks large with a massive skull size. Not sure why you're overlooking that. But you've done that before so no surprise.
Persian have one of the biggest skulls, only Central African males best them. As you should know, it's a good indicator to estimate an animal its size. Same applies to these Central African males; their average skull size is higher than a South African male and the biggest skulls in the world are from these males. Tell me, what makes you think they're mediocre and will average 65kg with such huge skulls?
Just so you know, Tigers for instance have a stronger correlation to body length than Skull size which is why I keep saying that since we dont know skull size to body weight nor do we have many skulls with body weights as well for any leopard, you dont know what correlation skull size has. This is also true in persians which may be the largest Leopard and also not coincidentally are the longest Leopards on record as well.
In regards to your claims of massive leopards, again, you haven't seen them, I have. There is no alterior motive, you and I see very different things. I dont thing you should be making claims about overlooking anything, you've been doing it with comparable E/S African leopards that were hunted, actual verified weights from the Congo Basin it self or from the C. African hunts which no doubt some are the same individuals you find in the Congo basin, I'm sure they travel in and out of the forest, especially ones living on the fringe.
Again, I found a huge collection of Jaguar photos, you'll be able to compare properly I no time.
I'll post in a bit
04-27-2019, 03:42 PM( This post was last modified: 04-27-2019, 03:43 PM by Luipaard )
(04-27-2019, 02:22 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-27-2019, 11:25 AM)Luipaard Wrote:
(04-27-2019, 02:52 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-27-2019, 02:45 AM)Luipaard Wrote: Here's a more impressive Persian leopard than that Pantanal jaguaress. Look at his massive skull @0:30
I'm not sure where you got that from, the leopard looks normal body sized for a Male.
You need to see good sized males in person to appreciate what a 70kg Leopard actually looks like.
Edit: I found a treasure trove of old Jaguars photos that will be great for comparison. I'll post them tomorrow and you can post the Leopards that you think match up.
He looks large with a massive skull size. Not sure why you're overlooking that. But you've done that before so no surprise.
Persian have one of the biggest skulls, only Central African males best them. As you should know, it's a good indicator to estimate an animal its size. Same applies to these Central African males; their average skull size is higher than a South African male and the biggest skulls in the world are from these males. Tell me, what makes you think they're mediocre and will average 65kg with such huge skulls?
Just so you know, Tigers for instance have a stronger correlation to body length than Skull size which is why I keep saying that since we dont know skull size to body weight nor do we have many skulls with body weights as well for any leopard, you dont know what correlation skull size has. This is also true in persians which may be the largest Leopard and also not coincidentally are the longest Leopards on record as well.
In regards to your claims of massive leopards, again, you haven't seen them, I have. There is no alterior motive, you and I see very different things. I dont thing you should be making claims about overlooking anything, you've been doing it with comparable E/S African leopards that were hunted, actual verified weights from the Congo Basin it self or from the C. African hunts which no doubt some are the same individuals you find in the Congo basin, I'm sure they travel in and out of the forest, especially ones living on the fringe.
Again, I found a huge collection of Jaguar photos, you'll be able to compare properly I no time.
I'll post in a bit
You know why I use skull measurements all the time? When weighing a (dead) animal, you have no idea how much said animal has eaten (stomach content). The head size has been shown to be a very good indicator of overall body mass for big cats. Which is why researchers use this method aswell to get a more accurate estimate of how big an animal really is.
Quote:In regards to your claims of massive leopards, again, you haven't seen them, I have.
I don't think having being on a safari trip is a criteria in this discussion, does it? I use skull measurements from different subspecies to compare different subspecies. Opinions from experts or researchers are useful aswell.
Quote:you've been doing it with comparable E/S African leopards that were hunted, actual verified weights from the Congo Basin it self or from the C. African hunts which no doubt some are the same individuals you find in the Congo basin,
Not really, some particular East African leopards are indeed comparable, such as those from the Aberdare in Kenya or Ethiopia. And regarding the Central African leopards. There are areas where they're untouched but there are areas where they're competing with bushmeat hunters, thus limiting their prey selection. In those untouched areas, such as the Batéké Plateau National Park or Lopé National Park, they can predate on whatever they want to. This is why they're bigger and more robust, it's an adaption to take on larger prey like okapi and red river hogs.
Quote:Again, I found a huge collection of Jaguar photos, you'll be able to compare properly I no time.
