There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
04-24-2019, 08:22 AM( This post was last modified: 04-24-2019, 08:24 AM by Styx38 )
(03-04-2019, 10:00 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-04-2019, 02:45 PM)Luipaard Wrote: A quote about their size and suggested prey:
"Generally speaking predators tend to be smaller in dense forests because prey densities tend to be lower compared to more open habitats. But this doesn’t seem to apply to African leopards because the density of leopards (which is pretty much proportional to prey density) in pristine rainforest areas is equally high to those recorded in well protected savanna regions. Furthermore in the case of leopards which are sympatric with other large carnivores other factors which influence size must also be considered. Firstly, the leopard is the dominant predator of the African equatorial forests unlike in the savanna where it is of course sympatric with the much larger lion. In the absence of a more dominant competitor the subordinate species will tend to exhibit an increase in size (this is known as character release). In the savanna the leopard’s size is constrained by its need to be much smaller than the lion in order to reduce competition over prey and also to be able to evade the larger cat by climbing further up into trees etc. In the forest the leopard is free to hunt larger animals and also does not need to stay lightweight to climb high into trees. The diet of leopards in Gabon (western Congo Basin) has been extensively studied by Dr. Philip Henschel who has found that in pristine areas the preferred prey is duikers and red river hogs. With females probably taking duikers and adult males tackling the much larger hogs. On the other hand, in Kruger by far the most preferred prey of both male and female leopards is the nimble impala which is larger than duikers but much less impressive than red river hogs. And though warthogs are an important prey source for male leopards in Kruger they are taken far less frequently than red river hogs in Gabon"
""The most important single prey species was found to be red river hog Potamochoerus porcus (Linnaeus), making up 20% of the biomass consumed, followed by forest buffalo Syncerus caffer nanus (Boddaert) and cane rat Thryonomys swinderianus (Temminck), each comprising 13% of biomass consumed. Bushbuck % 8.6, putty nosed guenon % 8.1 and forest buffalo with % 7.1 frequency of occurence."
Regardless of location, mean prey BW is between 20-30kg
But the difference is that South and East Africa represent the majority of leopards in all of Africa so they will no doubt have many more opportunities to have larger individuals.
But I echo @dr panthera on page 1 post #12
"Indeed the largest leopard skull is for a male from north east Iran, his skull was almost the size of the skull of a female Caspian tiger (M.Farhidinia) Recent data greatly reduced the estimated number of rain forest African leopards ( Congo-Gabon-Cote D'Ivoire)..DE MEULENAAR estimated 40 leopards per 100 km2 but recent studies by Henschell and others show one tenth such concentrations, tropical forests harbor a small number of large ungulates and therefore will accommodate less predators. I am sure there are many males in the tropical African forests that exceed 40 kg but the largest leopards are likely to come from ( in that order ) Iran, East Africa, Kruger, India and Sri Lanka due to large prey availability."
Also, red river hog is smaller and less impressive than warthogs which are preyed upon often by Leopards, but its not just that or impala, leopard prey on Wildebeest, Hartebeest, Water Buck, Kudu, Eland, etc. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/47b2/28...cbe9a4.pdf
Doesn't prey size correlate with Leopard size?
Quote:As the leopard's body mass range crosses the body mass threshold for obligate large vertebrate carnivory (>45% of predator body mass; Carbone et al., 1999), smaller body mass populations of leopards might be expected to prey on smaller vertebrates. Leopards in the Baviaanskloof Wilderness Area in South Africa's Eastern Cape Province support this, with rodents comprising 9% of the total prey species killed (Ott, 2004). Other populations of leopards that prey largely on suboptimally sized prey (Grobler & Wilson, 1972) may also be smaller in body mass than those preying on large ungulates. Limited data from Israel and Oman suggest that small leopards there largely prey on smaller body sized species (Ilani, 1981; Spalton & Willis, 1999).
Prey preferences of the leopard (Panthera pardus) ( Hayward et. al 2006)
In one study, Leopards actually consumed adult Gorillas in Gabon:
Quote:Remains of gorillas and chimpanzees were found in scats nine and six times respectively. For each species age classification of the consumed individual was possible for three scats. For gorilla, the individuals consumed were adult in all three cases, and for chimpanzee two were adult and one was juvenile.
Leopard food habits in the Lopé National Park, Gabon, Central Africa (Henschel et. al 2005)
^ Wouldn't this mean that Central African Leopards would be similar if not larger than their savanna counterparts since they eat large prey frequently?
(03-04-2019, 02:45 PM)Luipaard Wrote: A quote about their size and suggested prey:
"Generally speaking predators tend to be smaller in dense forests because prey densities tend to be lower compared to more open habitats. But this doesn’t seem to apply to African leopards because the density of leopards (which is pretty much proportional to prey density) in pristine rainforest areas is equally high to those recorded in well protected savanna regions. Furthermore in the case of leopards which are sympatric with other large carnivores other factors which influence size must also be considered. Firstly, the leopard is the dominant predator of the African equatorial forests unlike in the savanna where it is of course sympatric with the much larger lion. In the absence of a more dominant competitor the subordinate species will tend to exhibit an increase in size (this is known as character release). In the savanna the leopard’s size is constrained by its need to be much smaller than the lion in order to reduce competition over prey and also to be able to evade the larger cat by climbing further up into trees etc. In the forest the leopard is free to hunt larger animals and also does not need to stay lightweight to climb high into trees. The diet of leopards in Gabon (western Congo Basin) has been extensively studied by Dr. Philip Henschel who has found that in pristine areas the preferred prey is duikers and red river hogs. With females probably taking duikers and adult males tackling the much larger hogs. On the other hand, in Kruger by far the most preferred prey of both male and female leopards is the nimble impala which is larger than duikers but much less impressive than red river hogs. And though warthogs are an important prey source for male leopards in Kruger they are taken far less frequently than red river hogs in Gabon"
""The most important single prey species was found to be red river hog Potamochoerus porcus (Linnaeus), making up 20% of the biomass consumed, followed by forest buffalo Syncerus caffer nanus (Boddaert) and cane rat Thryonomys swinderianus (Temminck), each comprising 13% of biomass consumed. Bushbuck % 8.6, putty nosed guenon % 8.1 and forest buffalo with % 7.1 frequency of occurence."
Regardless of location, mean prey BW is between 20-30kg
But the difference is that South and East Africa represent the majority of leopards in all of Africa so they will no doubt have many more opportunities to have larger individuals.
But I echo @dr panthera on page 1 post #12
"Indeed the largest leopard skull is for a male from north east Iran, his skull was almost the size of the skull of a female Caspian tiger (M.Farhidinia) Recent data greatly reduced the estimated number of rain forest African leopards ( Congo-Gabon-Cote D'Ivoire)..DE MEULENAAR estimated 40 leopards per 100 km2 but recent studies by Henschell and others show one tenth such concentrations, tropical forests harbor a small number of large ungulates and therefore will accommodate less predators. I am sure there are many males in the tropical African forests that exceed 40 kg but the largest leopards are likely to come from ( in that order ) Iran, East Africa, Kruger, India and Sri Lanka due to large prey availability."
Also, red river hog is smaller and less impressive than warthogs which are preyed upon often by Leopards, but its not just that or impala, leopard prey on Wildebeest, Hartebeest, Water Buck, Kudu, Eland, etc. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/47b2/28...cbe9a4.pdf
Doesn't prey size correlate with Leopard size?
Quote:As the leopard's body mass range crosses the body mass threshold for obligate large vertebrate carnivory (>45% of predator body mass; Carbone et al., 1999), smaller body mass populations of leopards might be expected to prey on smaller vertebrates. Leopards in the Baviaanskloof Wilderness Area in South Africa's Eastern Cape Province support this, with rodents comprising 9% of the total prey species killed (Ott, 2004). Other populations of leopards that prey largely on suboptimally sized prey (Grobler & Wilson, 1972) may also be smaller in body mass than those preying on large ungulates. Limited data from Israel and Oman suggest that small leopards there largely prey on smaller body sized species (Ilani, 1981; Spalton & Willis, 1999).
Prey preferences of the leopard (Panthera pardus) ( Hayward et. al 2006)
In one study, Leopards actually consumed adult Gorillas in Gabon:
Quote:Remains of gorillas and chimpanzees were found in scats nine and six times respectively. For each species age classification of the consumed individual was possible for three scats. For gorilla, the individuals consumed were adult in all three cases, and for chimpanzee two were adult and one was juvenile.
Leopard food habits in the Lopé National Park, Gabon, Central Africa (Henschel et. al 2005)
^ Wouldn't this mean that Central African Leopards would be similar if not larger than their savanna counterparts since they eat large prey frequently?
It absolutely can and no Leopard species has access and preys on more variety of small to mid size prey than S. And E. African leopards.
C. African leopards actually prey on smaller and less variety of prey which is part of my hesitation on any claims of their unusual size.
(03-04-2019, 02:45 PM)Luipaard Wrote: A quote about their size and suggested prey:
"Generally speaking predators tend to be smaller in dense forests because prey densities tend to be lower compared to more open habitats. But this doesn’t seem to apply to African leopards because the density of leopards (which is pretty much proportional to prey density) in pristine rainforest areas is equally high to those recorded in well protected savanna regions. Furthermore in the case of leopards which are sympatric with other large carnivores other factors which influence size must also be considered. Firstly, the leopard is the dominant predator of the African equatorial forests unlike in the savanna where it is of course sympatric with the much larger lion. In the absence of a more dominant competitor the subordinate species will tend to exhibit an increase in size (this is known as character release). In the savanna the leopard’s size is constrained by its need to be much smaller than the lion in order to reduce competition over prey and also to be able to evade the larger cat by climbing further up into trees etc. In the forest the leopard is free to hunt larger animals and also does not need to stay lightweight to climb high into trees. The diet of leopards in Gabon (western Congo Basin) has been extensively studied by Dr. Philip Henschel who has found that in pristine areas the preferred prey is duikers and red river hogs. With females probably taking duikers and adult males tackling the much larger hogs. On the other hand, in Kruger by far the most preferred prey of both male and female leopards is the nimble impala which is larger than duikers but much less impressive than red river hogs. And though warthogs are an important prey source for male leopards in Kruger they are taken far less frequently than red river hogs in Gabon"
""The most important single prey species was found to be red river hog Potamochoerus porcus (Linnaeus), making up 20% of the biomass consumed, followed by forest buffalo Syncerus caffer nanus (Boddaert) and cane rat Thryonomys swinderianus (Temminck), each comprising 13% of biomass consumed. Bushbuck % 8.6, putty nosed guenon % 8.1 and forest buffalo with % 7.1 frequency of occurence."
Regardless of location, mean prey BW is between 20-30kg
But the difference is that South and East Africa represent the majority of leopards in all of Africa so they will no doubt have many more opportunities to have larger individuals.
But I echo @dr panthera on page 1 post #12
"Indeed the largest leopard skull is for a male from north east Iran, his skull was almost the size of the skull of a female Caspian tiger (M.Farhidinia) Recent data greatly reduced the estimated number of rain forest African leopards ( Congo-Gabon-Cote D'Ivoire)..DE MEULENAAR estimated 40 leopards per 100 km2 but recent studies by Henschell and others show one tenth such concentrations, tropical forests harbor a small number of large ungulates and therefore will accommodate less predators. I am sure there are many males in the tropical African forests that exceed 40 kg but the largest leopards are likely to come from ( in that order ) Iran, East Africa, Kruger, India and Sri Lanka due to large prey availability."
Also, red river hog is smaller and less impressive than warthogs which are preyed upon often by Leopards, but its not just that or impala, leopard prey on Wildebeest, Hartebeest, Water Buck, Kudu, Eland, etc. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/47b2/28...cbe9a4.pdf
Doesn't prey size correlate with Leopard size?
Quote:As the leopard's body mass range crosses the body mass threshold for obligate large vertebrate carnivory (>45% of predator body mass; Carbone et al., 1999), smaller body mass populations of leopards might be expected to prey on smaller vertebrates. Leopards in the Baviaanskloof Wilderness Area in South Africa's Eastern Cape Province support this, with rodents comprising 9% of the total prey species killed (Ott, 2004). Other populations of leopards that prey largely on suboptimally sized prey (Grobler & Wilson, 1972) may also be smaller in body mass than those preying on large ungulates. Limited data from Israel and Oman suggest that small leopards there largely prey on smaller body sized species (Ilani, 1981; Spalton & Willis, 1999).
Prey preferences of the leopard (Panthera pardus) ( Hayward et. al 2006)
In one study, Leopards actually consumed adult Gorillas in Gabon:
Quote:Remains of gorillas and chimpanzees were found in scats nine and six times respectively. For each species age classification of the consumed individual was possible for three scats. For gorilla, the individuals consumed were adult in all three cases, and for chimpanzee two were adult and one was juvenile.
Leopard food habits in the Lopé National Park, Gabon, Central Africa (Henschel et. al 2005)
^ Wouldn't this mean that Central African Leopards would be similar if not larger than their savanna counterparts since they eat large prey frequently?
It absolutely can and no Leopard species has access and preys on more variety of small to mid size prey than S. And E. African leopards.
C. African leopards actually prey on smaller and less variety of prey which is part of my hesitation on any claims of their unusual size.
Doesn't the frequency also matter?
For example, Leopards can kill Kudu in the Savanna, but they won't do it every single time considering how Lions, hyenas and wild dogs will frequently usurp their kills.
On the other hand, the Leopard can kill the largest prey anytime in places that lack the various competitors.
(03-04-2019, 02:45 PM)Luipaard Wrote: A quote about their size and suggested prey:
"Generally speaking predators tend to be smaller in dense forests because prey densities tend to be lower compared to more open habitats. But this doesn’t seem to apply to African leopards because the density of leopards (which is pretty much proportional to prey density) in pristine rainforest areas is equally high to those recorded in well protected savanna regions. Furthermore in the case of leopards which are sympatric with other large carnivores other factors which influence size must also be considered. Firstly, the leopard is the dominant predator of the African equatorial forests unlike in the savanna where it is of course sympatric with the much larger lion. In the absence of a more dominant competitor the subordinate species will tend to exhibit an increase in size (this is known as character release). In the savanna the leopard’s size is constrained by its need to be much smaller than the lion in order to reduce competition over prey and also to be able to evade the larger cat by climbing further up into trees etc. In the forest the leopard is free to hunt larger animals and also does not need to stay lightweight to climb high into trees. The diet of leopards in Gabon (western Congo Basin) has been extensively studied by Dr. Philip Henschel who has found that in pristine areas the preferred prey is duikers and red river hogs. With females probably taking duikers and adult males tackling the much larger hogs. On the other hand, in Kruger by far the most preferred prey of both male and female leopards is the nimble impala which is larger than duikers but much less impressive than red river hogs. And though warthogs are an important prey source for male leopards in Kruger they are taken far less frequently than red river hogs in Gabon"
""The most important single prey species was found to be red river hog Potamochoerus porcus (Linnaeus), making up 20% of the biomass consumed, followed by forest buffalo Syncerus caffer nanus (Boddaert) and cane rat Thryonomys swinderianus (Temminck), each comprising 13% of biomass consumed. Bushbuck % 8.6, putty nosed guenon % 8.1 and forest buffalo with % 7.1 frequency of occurence."
Regardless of location, mean prey BW is between 20-30kg
But the difference is that South and East Africa represent the majority of leopards in all of Africa so they will no doubt have many more opportunities to have larger individuals.
But I echo @dr panthera on page 1 post #12
"Indeed the largest leopard skull is for a male from north east Iran, his skull was almost the size of the skull of a female Caspian tiger (M.Farhidinia) Recent data greatly reduced the estimated number of rain forest African leopards ( Congo-Gabon-Cote D'Ivoire)..DE MEULENAAR estimated 40 leopards per 100 km2 but recent studies by Henschell and others show one tenth such concentrations, tropical forests harbor a small number of large ungulates and therefore will accommodate less predators. I am sure there are many males in the tropical African forests that exceed 40 kg but the largest leopards are likely to come from ( in that order ) Iran, East Africa, Kruger, India and Sri Lanka due to large prey availability."
Also, red river hog is smaller and less impressive than warthogs which are preyed upon often by Leopards, but its not just that or impala, leopard prey on Wildebeest, Hartebeest, Water Buck, Kudu, Eland, etc. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/47b2/28...cbe9a4.pdf
Doesn't prey size correlate with Leopard size?
Quote:As the leopard's body mass range crosses the body mass threshold for obligate large vertebrate carnivory (>45% of predator body mass; Carbone et al., 1999), smaller body mass populations of leopards might be expected to prey on smaller vertebrates. Leopards in the Baviaanskloof Wilderness Area in South Africa's Eastern Cape Province support this, with rodents comprising 9% of the total prey species killed (Ott, 2004). Other populations of leopards that prey largely on suboptimally sized prey (Grobler & Wilson, 1972) may also be smaller in body mass than those preying on large ungulates. Limited data from Israel and Oman suggest that small leopards there largely prey on smaller body sized species (Ilani, 1981; Spalton & Willis, 1999).
Prey preferences of the leopard (Panthera pardus) ( Hayward et. al 2006)
In one study, Leopards actually consumed adult Gorillas in Gabon:
Quote:Remains of gorillas and chimpanzees were found in scats nine and six times respectively. For each species age classification of the consumed individual was possible for three scats. For gorilla, the individuals consumed were adult in all three cases, and for chimpanzee two were adult and one was juvenile.
Leopard food habits in the Lopé National Park, Gabon, Central Africa (Henschel et. al 2005)
^ Wouldn't this mean that Central African Leopards would be similar if not larger than their savanna counterparts since they eat large prey frequently?
It absolutely can and no Leopard species has access and preys on more variety of small to mid size prey than S. And E. African leopards.
C. African leopards actually prey on smaller and less variety of prey which is part of my hesitation on any claims of their unusual size.
Doesn't the frequency also matter?
For example, Leopards can kill Kudu in the Savanna, but they won't do it every single time considering how Lions, hyenas and wild dogs will frequently usurp their kills.
On the other hand, the Leopard can kill the largest prey anytime in places that lack the various competitors.
If you're comparing frequency between the prey I listed and gorilla it would heavily favor the prey I listed.
Also just think of the sheer number of animals in E. Africa for instance, the great migration will go directly through the territory of many leopards on top of having access to the highest abundance of prey of any big cat on earth.
(03-04-2019, 02:45 PM)Luipaard Wrote: A quote about their size and suggested prey:
"Generally speaking predators tend to be smaller in dense forests because prey densities tend to be lower compared to more open habitats. But this doesn’t seem to apply to African leopards because the density of leopards (which is pretty much proportional to prey density) in pristine rainforest areas is equally high to those recorded in well protected savanna regions. Furthermore in the case of leopards which are sympatric with other large carnivores other factors which influence size must also be considered. Firstly, the leopard is the dominant predator of the African equatorial forests unlike in the savanna where it is of course sympatric with the much larger lion. In the absence of a more dominant competitor the subordinate species will tend to exhibit an increase in size (this is known as character release). In the savanna the leopard’s size is constrained by its need to be much smaller than the lion in order to reduce competition over prey and also to be able to evade the larger cat by climbing further up into trees etc. In the forest the leopard is free to hunt larger animals and also does not need to stay lightweight to climb high into trees. The diet of leopards in Gabon (western Congo Basin) has been extensively studied by Dr. Philip Henschel who has found that in pristine areas the preferred prey is duikers and red river hogs. With females probably taking duikers and adult males tackling the much larger hogs. On the other hand, in Kruger by far the most preferred prey of both male and female leopards is the nimble impala which is larger than duikers but much less impressive than red river hogs. And though warthogs are an important prey source for male leopards in Kruger they are taken far less frequently than red river hogs in Gabon"
""The most important single prey species was found to be red river hog Potamochoerus porcus (Linnaeus), making up 20% of the biomass consumed, followed by forest buffalo Syncerus caffer nanus (Boddaert) and cane rat Thryonomys swinderianus (Temminck), each comprising 13% of biomass consumed. Bushbuck % 8.6, putty nosed guenon % 8.1 and forest buffalo with % 7.1 frequency of occurence."
Regardless of location, mean prey BW is between 20-30kg
But the difference is that South and East Africa represent the majority of leopards in all of Africa so they will no doubt have many more opportunities to have larger individuals.
But I echo @dr panthera on page 1 post #12
"Indeed the largest leopard skull is for a male from north east Iran, his skull was almost the size of the skull of a female Caspian tiger (M.Farhidinia) Recent data greatly reduced the estimated number of rain forest African leopards ( Congo-Gabon-Cote D'Ivoire)..DE MEULENAAR estimated 40 leopards per 100 km2 but recent studies by Henschell and others show one tenth such concentrations, tropical forests harbor a small number of large ungulates and therefore will accommodate less predators. I am sure there are many males in the tropical African forests that exceed 40 kg but the largest leopards are likely to come from ( in that order ) Iran, East Africa, Kruger, India and Sri Lanka due to large prey availability."
Also, red river hog is smaller and less impressive than warthogs which are preyed upon often by Leopards, but its not just that or impala, leopard prey on Wildebeest, Hartebeest, Water Buck, Kudu, Eland, etc. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/47b2/28...cbe9a4.pdf
Doesn't prey size correlate with Leopard size?
Quote:As the leopard's body mass range crosses the body mass threshold for obligate large vertebrate carnivory (>45% of predator body mass; Carbone et al., 1999), smaller body mass populations of leopards might be expected to prey on smaller vertebrates. Leopards in the Baviaanskloof Wilderness Area in South Africa's Eastern Cape Province support this, with rodents comprising 9% of the total prey species killed (Ott, 2004). Other populations of leopards that prey largely on suboptimally sized prey (Grobler & Wilson, 1972) may also be smaller in body mass than those preying on large ungulates. Limited data from Israel and Oman suggest that small leopards there largely prey on smaller body sized species (Ilani, 1981; Spalton & Willis, 1999).
Prey preferences of the leopard (Panthera pardus) ( Hayward et. al 2006)
In one study, Leopards actually consumed adult Gorillas in Gabon:
Quote:Remains of gorillas and chimpanzees were found in scats nine and six times respectively. For each species age classification of the consumed individual was possible for three scats. For gorilla, the individuals consumed were adult in all three cases, and for chimpanzee two were adult and one was juvenile.
Leopard food habits in the Lopé National Park, Gabon, Central Africa (Henschel et. al 2005)
^ Wouldn't this mean that Central African Leopards would be similar if not larger than their savanna counterparts since they eat large prey frequently?
It absolutely can and no Leopard species has access and preys on more variety of small to mid size prey than S. And E. African leopards.
C. African leopards actually prey on smaller and less variety of prey which is part of my hesitation on any claims of their unusual size.
Doesn't the frequency also matter?
For example, Leopards can kill Kudu in the Savanna, but they won't do it every single time considering how Lions, hyenas and wild dogs will frequently usurp their kills.
On the other hand, the Leopard can kill the largest prey anytime in places that lack the various competitors.
If you're comparing frequency between the prey I listed and gorilla it would heavily favor the prey I listed.
Also just think of the sheer number of animals in E. Africa for instance, the great migration will go directly through the territory of many leopards on top of having access to the highest abundance of prey of any big cat on earth.
No. Leopards in the Savannas usually focus on a smaller weight range than their competitors. Their main prey will be Impala and smaller antelopes, with the occasional Kudu/Wildebeest/Waterbuck.
On the other hand, the Gorilla will be a frequent prey item among the Gabon Leopards.
Hypothetically speaking, if competitors move into the Gabon Leopard's ecosystem, then the Leopard will focus on smaller animals to kill and easily cache in trees.
Thus, if the prey weight average decreases, then the Leopard's weight will diminish, meaning lesser robust Leopards. The amount of big Forest Leopards may decrease until it reached the amount of big Savanna Leopards.
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(03-04-2019, 02:45 PM)Luipaard Wrote: A quote about their size and suggested prey:
"Generally speaking predators tend to be smaller in dense forests because prey densities tend to be lower compared to more open habitats. But this doesn’t seem to apply to African leopards because the density of leopards (which is pretty much proportional to prey density) in pristine rainforest areas is equally high to those recorded in well protected savanna regions. Furthermore in the case of leopards which are sympatric with other large carnivores other factors which influence size must also be considered. Firstly, the leopard is the dominant predator of the African equatorial forests unlike in the savanna where it is of course sympatric with the much larger lion. In the absence of a more dominant competitor the subordinate species will tend to exhibit an increase in size (this is known as character release). In the savanna the leopard’s size is constrained by its need to be much smaller than the lion in order to reduce competition over prey and also to be able to evade the larger cat by climbing further up into trees etc. In the forest the leopard is free to hunt larger animals and also does not need to stay lightweight to climb high into trees. The diet of leopards in Gabon (western Congo Basin) has been extensively studied by Dr. Philip Henschel who has found that in pristine areas the preferred prey is duikers and red river hogs. With females probably taking duikers and adult males tackling the much larger hogs. On the other hand, in Kruger by far the most preferred prey of both male and female leopards is the nimble impala which is larger than duikers but much less impressive than red river hogs. And though warthogs are an important prey source for male leopards in Kruger they are taken far less frequently than red river hogs in Gabon"
""The most important single prey species was found to be red river hog Potamochoerus porcus (Linnaeus), making up 20% of the biomass consumed, followed by forest buffalo Syncerus caffer nanus (Boddaert) and cane rat Thryonomys swinderianus (Temminck), each comprising 13% of biomass consumed. Bushbuck % 8.6, putty nosed guenon % 8.1 and forest buffalo with % 7.1 frequency of occurence."
Regardless of location, mean prey BW is between 20-30kg
But the difference is that South and East Africa represent the majority of leopards in all of Africa so they will no doubt have many more opportunities to have larger individuals.
But I echo @dr panthera on page 1 post #12
"Indeed the largest leopard skull is for a male from north east Iran, his skull was almost the size of the skull of a female Caspian tiger (M.Farhidinia) Recent data greatly reduced the estimated number of rain forest African leopards ( Congo-Gabon-Cote D'Ivoire)..DE MEULENAAR estimated 40 leopards per 100 km2 but recent studies by Henschell and others show one tenth such concentrations, tropical forests harbor a small number of large ungulates and therefore will accommodate less predators. I am sure there are many males in the tropical African forests that exceed 40 kg but the largest leopards are likely to come from ( in that order ) Iran, East Africa, Kruger, India and Sri Lanka due to large prey availability."
Also, red river hog is smaller and less impressive than warthogs which are preyed upon often by Leopards, but its not just that or impala, leopard prey on Wildebeest, Hartebeest, Water Buck, Kudu, Eland, etc. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/47b2/28...cbe9a4.pdf
Doesn't prey size correlate with Leopard size?
Quote:As the leopard's body mass range crosses the body mass threshold for obligate large vertebrate carnivory (>45% of predator body mass; Carbone et al., 1999), smaller body mass populations of leopards might be expected to prey on smaller vertebrates. Leopards in the Baviaanskloof Wilderness Area in South Africa's Eastern Cape Province support this, with rodents comprising 9% of the total prey species killed (Ott, 2004). Other populations of leopards that prey largely on suboptimally sized prey (Grobler & Wilson, 1972) may also be smaller in body mass than those preying on large ungulates. Limited data from Israel and Oman suggest that small leopards there largely prey on smaller body sized species (Ilani, 1981; Spalton & Willis, 1999).
Prey preferences of the leopard (Panthera pardus) ( Hayward et. al 2006)
In one study, Leopards actually consumed adult Gorillas in Gabon:
Quote:Remains of gorillas and chimpanzees were found in scats nine and six times respectively. For each species age classification of the consumed individual was possible for three scats. For gorilla, the individuals consumed were adult in all three cases, and for chimpanzee two were adult and one was juvenile.
Leopard food habits in the Lopé National Park, Gabon, Central Africa (Henschel et. al 2005)
^ Wouldn't this mean that Central African Leopards would be similar if not larger than their savanna counterparts since they eat large prey frequently?
It absolutely can and no Leopard species has access and preys on more variety of small to mid size prey than S. And E. African leopards.
C. African leopards actually prey on smaller and less variety of prey which is part of my hesitation on any claims of their unusual size.
Doesn't the frequency also matter?
For example, Leopards can kill Kudu in the Savanna, but they won't do it every single time considering how Lions, hyenas and wild dogs will frequently usurp their kills.
On the other hand, the Leopard can kill the largest prey anytime in places that lack the various competitors.
If you're comparing frequency between the prey I listed and gorilla it would heavily favor the prey I listed.
Also just think of the sheer number of animals in E. Africa for instance, the great migration will go directly through the territory of many leopards on top of having access to the highest abundance of prey of any big cat on earth.
No. Leopards in the Savannas usually focus on a smaller weight range than their competitors. Their main prey will be Impala and smaller antelopes, with the occasional Kudu/Wildebeest/Waterbuck.
On the other hand, the Gorilla will be a frequent prey item among the Gabon Leopards.
Hypothetically speaking, if competitors move into the Gabon Leopard's ecosystem, then the Leopard will focus on smaller animals to kill and easily cache in trees.
Thus, if the prey weight average decreases, then the Leopard's weight will diminish, meaning lesser robust Leopards. The amount of big Forest Leopards may decrease until it reached the amount of big Savanna Leopards.
When you write, that "gorilla will be a frequent prey" I find what you write exaggeration. I understand the word "frequent" so, that leopards would hunt gorillas often/all the time. So do you have something to back up such claim?
I have looked sometimes leopard-gorilla situation and I personally am convinced, that leopards kill gorillas, sometimes even big boys. But frequently.... based on what do you say so? And please don´t put here a link to some discussion in another forum :) Just show which study gives such information and/or who biologist/zoologist says so and where. I admit, that I will be surprised if you have something to back up that claim.
(03-04-2019, 02:45 PM)Luipaard Wrote: A quote about their size and suggested prey:
"Generally speaking predators tend to be smaller in dense forests because prey densities tend to be lower compared to more open habitats. But this doesn’t seem to apply to African leopards because the density of leopards (which is pretty much proportional to prey density) in pristine rainforest areas is equally high to those recorded in well protected savanna regions. Furthermore in the case of leopards which are sympatric with other large carnivores other factors which influence size must also be considered. Firstly, the leopard is the dominant predator of the African equatorial forests unlike in the savanna where it is of course sympatric with the much larger lion. In the absence of a more dominant competitor the subordinate species will tend to exhibit an increase in size (this is known as character release). In the savanna the leopard’s size is constrained by its need to be much smaller than the lion in order to reduce competition over prey and also to be able to evade the larger cat by climbing further up into trees etc. In the forest the leopard is free to hunt larger animals and also does not need to stay lightweight to climb high into trees. The diet of leopards in Gabon (western Congo Basin) has been extensively studied by Dr. Philip Henschel who has found that in pristine areas the preferred prey is duikers and red river hogs. With females probably taking duikers and adult males tackling the much larger hogs. On the other hand, in Kruger by far the most preferred prey of both male and female leopards is the nimble impala which is larger than duikers but much less impressive than red river hogs. And though warthogs are an important prey source for male leopards in Kruger they are taken far less frequently than red river hogs in Gabon"
""The most important single prey species was found to be red river hog Potamochoerus porcus (Linnaeus), making up 20% of the biomass consumed, followed by forest buffalo Syncerus caffer nanus (Boddaert) and cane rat Thryonomys swinderianus (Temminck), each comprising 13% of biomass consumed. Bushbuck % 8.6, putty nosed guenon % 8.1 and forest buffalo with % 7.1 frequency of occurence."
Regardless of location, mean prey BW is between 20-30kg
But the difference is that South and East Africa represent the majority of leopards in all of Africa so they will no doubt have many more opportunities to have larger individuals.
But I echo @dr panthera on page 1 post #12
"Indeed the largest leopard skull is for a male from north east Iran, his skull was almost the size of the skull of a female Caspian tiger (M.Farhidinia) Recent data greatly reduced the estimated number of rain forest African leopards ( Congo-Gabon-Cote D'Ivoire)..DE MEULENAAR estimated 40 leopards per 100 km2 but recent studies by Henschell and others show one tenth such concentrations, tropical forests harbor a small number of large ungulates and therefore will accommodate less predators. I am sure there are many males in the tropical African forests that exceed 40 kg but the largest leopards are likely to come from ( in that order ) Iran, East Africa, Kruger, India and Sri Lanka due to large prey availability."
Also, red river hog is smaller and less impressive than warthogs which are preyed upon often by Leopards, but its not just that or impala, leopard prey on Wildebeest, Hartebeest, Water Buck, Kudu, Eland, etc. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/47b2/28...cbe9a4.pdf
Doesn't prey size correlate with Leopard size?
Quote:As the leopard's body mass range crosses the body mass threshold for obligate large vertebrate carnivory (>45% of predator body mass; Carbone et al., 1999), smaller body mass populations of leopards might be expected to prey on smaller vertebrates. Leopards in the Baviaanskloof Wilderness Area in South Africa's Eastern Cape Province support this, with rodents comprising 9% of the total prey species killed (Ott, 2004). Other populations of leopards that prey largely on suboptimally sized prey (Grobler & Wilson, 1972) may also be smaller in body mass than those preying on large ungulates. Limited data from Israel and Oman suggest that small leopards there largely prey on smaller body sized species (Ilani, 1981; Spalton & Willis, 1999).
Prey preferences of the leopard (Panthera pardus) ( Hayward et. al 2006)
In one study, Leopards actually consumed adult Gorillas in Gabon:
Quote:Remains of gorillas and chimpanzees were found in scats nine and six times respectively. For each species age classification of the consumed individual was possible for three scats. For gorilla, the individuals consumed were adult in all three cases, and for chimpanzee two were adult and one was juvenile.
Leopard food habits in the Lopé National Park, Gabon, Central Africa (Henschel et. al 2005)
^ Wouldn't this mean that Central African Leopards would be similar if not larger than their savanna counterparts since they eat large prey frequently?
It absolutely can and no Leopard species has access and preys on more variety of small to mid size prey than S. And E. African leopards.
C. African leopards actually prey on smaller and less variety of prey which is part of my hesitation on any claims of their unusual size.
Doesn't the frequency also matter?
For example, Leopards can kill Kudu in the Savanna, but they won't do it every single time considering how Lions, hyenas and wild dogs will frequently usurp their kills.
On the other hand, the Leopard can kill the largest prey anytime in places that lack the various competitors.
If you're comparing frequency between the prey I listed and gorilla it would heavily favor the prey I listed.
Also just think of the sheer number of animals in E. Africa for instance, the great migration will go directly through the territory of many leopards on top of having access to the highest abundance of prey of any big cat on earth.
No. Leopards in the Savannas usually focus on a smaller weight range than their competitors. Their main prey will be Impala and smaller antelopes, with the occasional Kudu/Wildebeest/Waterbuck.
On the other hand, the Gorilla will be a frequent prey item among the Gabon Leopards.
Hypothetically speaking, if competitors move into the Gabon Leopard's ecosystem, then the Leopard will focus on smaller animals to kill and easily cache in trees.
Thus, if the prey weight average decreases, then the Leopard's weight will diminish, meaning lesser robust Leopards. The amount of big Forest Leopards may decrease until it reached the amount of big Savanna Leopards.
When you write, that "gorilla will be a frequent prey" I find what you write exaggeration. I understand the word "frequent" so, that leopards would hunt gorillas often/all the time. So do you have something to back up such claim?
I have looked sometimes leopard-gorilla situation and I personally am convinced, that leopards kill gorillas, sometimes even big boys. But frequently.... based on what do you say so? And please don´t put here a link to some discussion in another forum :) Just show which study gives such information and/or who biologist/zoologist says so and where. I admit, that I will be surprised if you have something to back up that claim.
Here:
Quote: Wrote:Remains of gorillas and chimpanzees were found in scats nine and six times respectively. For each species age classification of the consumed individual was possible for three scats. For gorilla, the individuals consumed were adult in all three cases, and for chimpanzee two were adult and one was juvenile.
Leopard food habits in the Lopé National Park, Gabon, Central Africa (Henschel et. al 2005)
(03-04-2019, 02:45 PM)Luipaard Wrote: A quote about their size and suggested prey:
"Generally speaking predators tend to be smaller in dense forests because prey densities tend to be lower compared to more open habitats. But this doesn’t seem to apply to African leopards because the density of leopards (which is pretty much proportional to prey density) in pristine rainforest areas is equally high to those recorded in well protected savanna regions. Furthermore in the case of leopards which are sympatric with other large carnivores other factors which influence size must also be considered. Firstly, the leopard is the dominant predator of the African equatorial forests unlike in the savanna where it is of course sympatric with the much larger lion. In the absence of a more dominant competitor the subordinate species will tend to exhibit an increase in size (this is known as character release). In the savanna the leopard’s size is constrained by its need to be much smaller than the lion in order to reduce competition over prey and also to be able to evade the larger cat by climbing further up into trees etc. In the forest the leopard is free to hunt larger animals and also does not need to stay lightweight to climb high into trees. The diet of leopards in Gabon (western Congo Basin) has been extensively studied by Dr. Philip Henschel who has found that in pristine areas the preferred prey is duikers and red river hogs. With females probably taking duikers and adult males tackling the much larger hogs. On the other hand, in Kruger by far the most preferred prey of both male and female leopards is the nimble impala which is larger than duikers but much less impressive than red river hogs. And though warthogs are an important prey source for male leopards in Kruger they are taken far less frequently than red river hogs in Gabon"
""The most important single prey species was found to be red river hog Potamochoerus porcus (Linnaeus), making up 20% of the biomass consumed, followed by forest buffalo Syncerus caffer nanus (Boddaert) and cane rat Thryonomys swinderianus (Temminck), each comprising 13% of biomass consumed. Bushbuck % 8.6, putty nosed guenon % 8.1 and forest buffalo with % 7.1 frequency of occurence."
Regardless of location, mean prey BW is between 20-30kg
But the difference is that South and East Africa represent the majority of leopards in all of Africa so they will no doubt have many more opportunities to have larger individuals.
But I echo @dr panthera on page 1 post #12
"Indeed the largest leopard skull is for a male from north east Iran, his skull was almost the size of the skull of a female Caspian tiger (M.Farhidinia) Recent data greatly reduced the estimated number of rain forest African leopards ( Congo-Gabon-Cote D'Ivoire)..DE MEULENAAR estimated 40 leopards per 100 km2 but recent studies by Henschell and others show one tenth such concentrations, tropical forests harbor a small number of large ungulates and therefore will accommodate less predators. I am sure there are many males in the tropical African forests that exceed 40 kg but the largest leopards are likely to come from ( in that order ) Iran, East Africa, Kruger, India and Sri Lanka due to large prey availability."
Also, red river hog is smaller and less impressive than warthogs which are preyed upon often by Leopards, but its not just that or impala, leopard prey on Wildebeest, Hartebeest, Water Buck, Kudu, Eland, etc. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/47b2/28...cbe9a4.pdf
Doesn't prey size correlate with Leopard size?
Quote:As the leopard's body mass range crosses the body mass threshold for obligate large vertebrate carnivory (>45% of predator body mass; Carbone et al., 1999), smaller body mass populations of leopards might be expected to prey on smaller vertebrates. Leopards in the Baviaanskloof Wilderness Area in South Africa's Eastern Cape Province support this, with rodents comprising 9% of the total prey species killed (Ott, 2004). Other populations of leopards that prey largely on suboptimally sized prey (Grobler & Wilson, 1972) may also be smaller in body mass than those preying on large ungulates. Limited data from Israel and Oman suggest that small leopards there largely prey on smaller body sized species (Ilani, 1981; Spalton & Willis, 1999).
Prey preferences of the leopard (Panthera pardus) ( Hayward et. al 2006)
In one study, Leopards actually consumed adult Gorillas in Gabon:
Quote:Remains of gorillas and chimpanzees were found in scats nine and six times respectively. For each species age classification of the consumed individual was possible for three scats. For gorilla, the individuals consumed were adult in all three cases, and for chimpanzee two were adult and one was juvenile.
Leopard food habits in the Lopé National Park, Gabon, Central Africa (Henschel et. al 2005)
^ Wouldn't this mean that Central African Leopards would be similar if not larger than their savanna counterparts since they eat large prey frequently?
It absolutely can and no Leopard species has access and preys on more variety of small to mid size prey than S. And E. African leopards.
C. African leopards actually prey on smaller and less variety of prey which is part of my hesitation on any claims of their unusual size.
Doesn't the frequency also matter?
For example, Leopards can kill Kudu in the Savanna, but they won't do it every single time considering how Lions, hyenas and wild dogs will frequently usurp their kills.
On the other hand, the Leopard can kill the largest prey anytime in places that lack the various competitors.
If you're comparing frequency between the prey I listed and gorilla it would heavily favor the prey I listed.
Also just think of the sheer number of animals in E. Africa for instance, the great migration will go directly through the territory of many leopards on top of having access to the highest abundance of prey of any big cat on earth.
No. Leopards in the Savannas usually focus on a smaller weight range than their competitors. Their main prey will be Impala and smaller antelopes, with the occasional Kudu/Wildebeest/Waterbuck.
On the other hand, the Gorilla will be a frequent prey item among the Gabon Leopards.
Hypothetically speaking, if competitors move into the Gabon Leopard's ecosystem, then the Leopard will focus on smaller animals to kill and easily cache in trees.
Thus, if the prey weight average decreases, then the Leopard's weight will diminish, meaning lesser robust Leopards. The amount of big Forest Leopards may decrease until it reached the amount of big Savanna Leopards.
When you write, that "gorilla will be a frequent prey" I find what you write exaggeration. I understand the word "frequent" so, that leopards would hunt gorillas often/all the time. So do you have something to back up such claim?
I have looked sometimes leopard-gorilla situation and I personally am convinced, that leopards kill gorillas, sometimes even big boys. But frequently.... based on what do you say so? And please don´t put here a link to some discussion in another forum :) Just show which study gives such information and/or who biologist/zoologist says so and where. I admit, that I will be surprised if you have something to back up that claim.
Here:
Quote: Wrote:Remains of gorillas and chimpanzees were found in scats nine and six times respectively. For each species age classification of the consumed individual was possible for three scats. For gorilla, the individuals consumed were adult in all three cases, and for chimpanzee two were adult and one was juvenile.
Leopard food habits in the Lopé National Park, Gabon, Central Africa (Henschel et. al 2005)
Yes, gorillas are predated sometimes. But saying frequently if you mean by that often is another thing. But have to look that study and see what there is more than one short quote :)
About gorillas as prey species, this study is for me more like confirmation to what is already known. That gorillas are prey animal for leopard. But then again what comes to terms used to describe it, that how often/regularly it happens, that is another thing.
Quote from that study:
Predation on apes has been reported from other studies on leopards (Hart et al., 1996; Ososky, 1998), and leopards are believed to be the main cause of mortality in a popu- lation of chimpanzees in Taı ¨National Park in Ivory Coast (Boesch, 1991). The finding in this study that gorillas are a prey species is new, studies of leopard scat had so far failed to identify gorillas as prey species (Hart et al., 1996; Ososky, 1998; Ray & Sunquist, 2001), although leopard attacks have been reported from studies on gorillas (Johnson, 1931; Schaller, 1963; Fay et al., 1995; Watson, 1999–2000).
04-24-2019, 12:37 PM( This post was last modified: 04-24-2019, 12:43 PM by Luipaard )
Central African leopards main prey for males are red river hogs. There's no doubt it would be a much bigger struggle taking it down than something like an impala which is the main prey for savanna leopards. Though the lack of more dominant competitors would certainly have some influence, the more impressive prey taken by leopards in the forest would be the main factor behind their more robust builds. And don't forget they also predate on forest buffaloes:
From 'Leopard food habits in the Lopé National Park, Gabon, Central Africa' (by P. Henschel, 2005)
Quote:The most important single prey species was found to be red river hog Potamochoerus porcus (Linnaeus), making up 20% of the biomass consumed, followed by forest buffalo Syncerus caffer nanus (Boddaert) and cane rat Thryonomys swinderianus (Temminck), each comprising 13% of biomass consumed.
From "Leopard attack on and consumption of gorillas in the Central African Republic" 1995 (by Michael Fay.)
*This image is copyright of its original author
They even predate on 200kg adult okapis (!)
It's only logical that these leopards are bigger and more robust, it's an adaptation to take on larger prey.
As for the sexual dimorphism in Central African leopards @Pckts
The male skulls from this region are so much bigger and more muscularly developed than the female skulls that early zoologists actually thought they were 2 different species. The reason is probably more enhanced resource partitioning. In the South African savanna for example, the main prey for both male and female leopards is impala. And while the second most important prey for females is small duikers, for male leopards it’s warthogs. In the central African forest, however, things get more interesting because there isn’t a nimble impala like substitute so males appear to have shifted more exclusively to the available suids (red river hogs) and females more exclusively to duikers. Extensive studies by Philip Henschel have shown that hogs and duikers are the main prey for leopards here and he suspects it’s the males who are mostly preying on the hogs. And this has probably resulted in the male leopards here becoming more specialized big game hunters and the already extreme sexual dimorphism in the species becoming even more pronounced in this region.
The most dimorphic modern big cat definitely appears to be the leopard. In most regions like India, Sri Lanka, and East Africa male skulls are around 20% larger than female skulls but in the Congo Basin region the difference is over 30% which is quite extraordinary. To my knowledge no other felid species exhibits anywhere near this level of sexual dimorphism. African lions are also at the upper extreme in terms of sexual dimorphism with male skulls generally being around 20% larger with some samples from certain regions showing a difference of up to 25%. Among tigers, the smaller subspecies from Southeast Asia are less dimorphic at 15% while the larger subspecies (Bengal, Amur, Caspian) show a difference of around 20% or so. The available data on jaguar skulls is summarized well by Hoogesteijn in the following table. Most of the skull measurements used were originally published by Pocock, Goldman, and Almeida. Compared to females, adult male skulls from Central America were 13.2% larger, from the Amazon 10.8% larger, from the Pantanal 12.8% larger, and from the Llanos 19.3% larger.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The following tables from Pocock and Allen show skull measurements for leopards from the Congo Basin forest and the adjacent forest/savanna mosaic habitat. The average skull length for 22 adult males was 254.2mm and for 18 females 193.4mm, a difference of 31.4%. Also note that the male skull average in this sample is equal to the average Pantanal jaguaress (78kg).
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
You can argue all you want. The evidence is there.
04-24-2019, 12:59 PM( This post was last modified: 04-24-2019, 01:15 PM by Shadow )
Two things just to be considered. It is quite clear for people who have read a lot about leopards and gorillas, that there is predation and gorillas are time to time prey for leopards. So there is no need to prove that, criticism concerning that is about it, that can someone really say, that it would happen often/frequently. Or is that a prey animal, which is in more extreme end of prey animals of leopards and happens time to time but not so regularly. There are many studies founding nothing while there are some showing, that at least some leopards are able to do that. That is interesting question even though most probably quite minor issue for both, I mean leopards and gorillas.
Then about skull measurements. Again here are mentioned jaguars. One important thing to remember is, that skull isn´t only length and width, those don´t give all relevant information about skull size. When comparing sizes of skulls of different species we can´t ignore volume of skull. Jaguar skulls appear to be much bigger when looking at overall size. Skull is three-dimensional, not two-dimensional. Leopard skull tends to be narrower and also more flat.
If comparing skulls then most interesting thing is to look at overall size, which reveals then the truth without a doubt.
04-24-2019, 02:16 PM( This post was last modified: 04-24-2019, 02:17 PM by Luipaard )
(04-24-2019, 12:59 PM)Shadow Wrote: Two things just to be considered. It is quite clear for people who have read a lot about leopards and gorillas, that there is predation and gorillas are time to time prey for leopards. So there is no need to prove that, criticism concerning that is about it, that can someone really say, that it would happen often/frequently. Or is that a prey animal, which is in more extreme end of prey animals of leopards and happens time to time but not so regularly. There are many studies founding nothing while there are some showing, that at least some leopards are able to do that. That is interesting question even though most probably quite minor issue for both, I mean leopards and gorillas.
Then about skull measurements. Again here are mentioned jaguars. One important thing to remember is, that skull isn´t only length and width, those don´t give all relevant information about skull size. When comparing sizes of skulls of different species we can´t ignore volume of skull. Jaguar skulls appear to be much bigger when looking at overall size. Skull is three-dimensional, not two-dimensional. Leopard skull tends to be narrower and also more flat.
If comparing skulls then most interesting thing is to look at overall size, which reveals then the truth without a doubt.
Well we can check how large skulls are overall (inches)?
These are the 20 biggest male leopard skulls from scientific sources I'm aware of in terms of total score (total length + width). Note that the biggest are from either Central Africa or Iran (the biggest leopard subspecies).
*This image is copyright of its original author
Yes I like to compare leopards with jaguars in this case. So for comparison, 47 adult male jaguar skulls recorded by professional hunter Tony Almeida from the Pantanal ranged from 18.125" to 20.75". He classified any jaguar skull measuring 19" or over as huge and anything at or above 19.75" as a monster specimen.
Notice how the large ones rival Pantanal jaguar ones.
Now in comparison with South African leopards; the largest recorded skull measurements are 274mm in total length but only 153mm wide with a total score of 16.81. For comparison, skull from Gabon of a relatively young adult male leopard measured by Pocock was 267mm x 180mm.
Quote:Jaguar skulls appear to be much bigger when looking at overall size. Skull is three-dimensional, not two-dimensional. Leopard skull tends to be narrower and also more flat.
Here's some data from the paper 'The assessment of size in fossil Felidae':
"the correlation between condylobasal length and zygomatic width in jaguars and lions was similar at 0.875 and 0.855, respectively. Whereas in leopards the correlation between these measurements was weaker at 0.772. For this reason, while jaguar skulls are definitely broader relative to length in general, the broadest leopard skulls have a length to width ratio which is about the same as the the broadest jaguar skulls."
04-24-2019, 02:51 PM( This post was last modified: 04-24-2019, 04:38 PM by Shadow )
(04-24-2019, 02:16 PM)Luipaard Wrote:
(04-24-2019, 12:59 PM)Shadow Wrote: Two things just to be considered. It is quite clear for people who have read a lot about leopards and gorillas, that there is predation and gorillas are time to time prey for leopards. So there is no need to prove that, criticism concerning that is about it, that can someone really say, that it would happen often/frequently. Or is that a prey animal, which is in more extreme end of prey animals of leopards and happens time to time but not so regularly. There are many studies founding nothing while there are some showing, that at least some leopards are able to do that. That is interesting question even though most probably quite minor issue for both, I mean leopards and gorillas.
Then about skull measurements. Again here are mentioned jaguars. One important thing to remember is, that skull isn´t only length and width, those don´t give all relevant information about skull size. When comparing sizes of skulls of different species we can´t ignore volume of skull. Jaguar skulls appear to be much bigger when looking at overall size. Skull is three-dimensional, not two-dimensional. Leopard skull tends to be narrower and also more flat.
If comparing skulls then most interesting thing is to look at overall size, which reveals then the truth without a doubt.
Well we can check how large skulls are overall (inches)?
These are the 20 biggest male leopard skulls from scientific sources I'm aware of in terms of total score (total length + width). Note that the biggest are from either Central Africa or Iran (the biggest leopard subspecies).
*This image is copyright of its original author
Yes I like to compare leopards with jaguars in this case. So for comparison, 47 adult male jaguar skulls recorded by professional hunter Tony Almeida from the Pantanal ranged from 18.125" to 20.75". He classified any jaguar skull measuring 19" or over as huge and anything at or above 19.75" as a monster specimen.
Notice how the large ones rival Pantanal jaguar ones.
Now in comparison with South African leopards; the largest recorded skull measurements are 274mm in total length but only 153mm wide with a total score of 16.81. For comparison, skull from Gabon of a relatively young adult male leopard measured by Pocock was 267mm x 180mm.
Quote:Jaguar skulls appear to be much bigger when looking at overall size. Skull is three-dimensional, not two-dimensional. Leopard skull tends to be narrower and also more flat.
Here's some data from the paper 'The assessment of size in fossil Felidae':
"the correlation between condylobasal length and zygomatic width in jaguars and lions was similar at 0.875 and 0.855, respectively. Whereas in leopards the correlation between these measurements was weaker at 0.772. For this reason, while jaguar skulls are definitely broader relative to length in general, the broadest leopard skulls have a length to width ratio which is about the same as the the broadest jaguar skulls."
Three-dimensional was one key word in what I wrote. Overall volume of skull. It is good to remember also if comparing skulls of animals with different types of bodies overall in other ways too, it can be quite tricky and not so easily comparable just like that, what comes to overall sizes and weights of different species. Especially when animals have so different body types overall as jaguars and leopards.
Also if you take some exceptional individual measurements, then to compare in fair way you should take same kind of chart of other species. Anyway naturally even the biggest leopard skulls are smaller than biggest jaguars, so no new information here. But if wanting to discuss more about jaguar-leopard sizes, then again size comparisons thread is for sure better place even though this subject starts to be really boring when same things repeated all the time :)
But I say just this, taking exceptional individuals and trying to create image, like those would be something common... that creates questions. Maybe it is not intentional, but it is good to remember that we are talking in this thread about rainforest leopards, what is usual, what is time to time and then what is extreme/exceptional.
For sure in rainforests can be found many male leopards weighing 60-80 kg so if that is the issue, I think that many people see it in same way. But when putting a photo of some robust leopard, that proves nothing if trying to use a photo as proof that some leopard would be, let´s say 90 kg. If there is a 30-40 kg female leopard in photo and compared to 60-70 kg male, that male for sure looks like to be a huge one. 70 kg leopard actually is quite huge looking in photos where some hunter poses with it :)
Here one study about skulls of big cats giving overall information.
04-24-2019, 04:48 PM( This post was last modified: 04-24-2019, 06:36 PM by Pckts )
(04-24-2019, 12:37 PM)Luipaard Wrote: Central African leopards main prey for males are red river hogs. There's no doubt it would be a much bigger struggle taking it down than something like an impala which is the main prey for savanna leopards. Though the lack of more dominant competitors would certainly have some influence, the more impressive prey taken by leopards in the forest would be the main factor behind their more robust builds. And don't forget they also predate on forest buffaloes:
From 'Leopard food habits in the Lopé National Park, Gabon, Central Africa' (by P. Henschel, 2005)
Quote:The most important single prey species was found to be red river hog Potamochoerus porcus (Linnaeus), making up 20% of the biomass consumed, followed by forest buffalo Syncerus caffer nanus (Boddaert) and cane rat Thryonomys swinderianus (Temminck), each comprising 13% of biomass consumed.
From "Leopard attack on and consumption of gorillas in the Central African Republic" 1995 (by Michael Fay.)
*This image is copyright of its original author
They even predate on 200kg adult okapis (!)
It's only logical that these leopards are bigger and more robust, it's an adaptation to take on larger prey.
As for the sexual dimorphism in Central African leopards @Pckts
The male skulls from this region are so much bigger and more muscularly developed than the female skulls that early zoologists actually thought they were 2 different species. The reason is probably more enhanced resource partitioning. In the South African savanna for example, the main prey for both male and female leopards is impala. And while the second most important prey for females is small duikers, for male leopards it’s warthogs. In the central African forest, however, things get more interesting because there isn’t a nimble impala like substitute so males appear to have shifted more exclusively to the available suids (red river hogs) and females more exclusively to duikers. Extensive studies by Philip Henschel have shown that hogs and duikers are the main prey for leopards here and he suspects it’s the males who are mostly preying on the hogs. And this has probably resulted in the male leopards here becoming more specialized big game hunters and the already extreme sexual dimorphism in the species becoming even more pronounced in this region.
The most dimorphic modern big cat definitely appears to be the leopard. In most regions like India, Sri Lanka, and East Africa male skulls are around 20% larger than female skulls but in the Congo Basin region the difference is over 30% which is quite extraordinary. To my knowledge no other felid species exhibits anywhere near this level of sexual dimorphism. African lions are also at the upper extreme in terms of sexual dimorphism with male skulls generally being around 20% larger with some samples from certain regions showing a difference of up to 25%. Among tigers, the smaller subspecies from Southeast Asia are less dimorphic at 15% while the larger subspecies (Bengal, Amur, Caspian) show a difference of around 20% or so. The available data on jaguar skulls is summarized well by Hoogesteijn in the following table. Most of the skull measurements used were originally published by Pocock, Goldman, and Almeida. Compared to females, adult male skulls from Central America were 13.2% larger, from the Amazon 10.8% larger, from the Pantanal 12.8% larger, and from the Llanos 19.3% larger.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The following tables from Pocock and Allen show skull measurements for leopards from the Congo Basin forest and the adjacent forest/savanna mosaic habitat. The average skull length for 22 adult males was 254.2mm and for 18 females 193.4mm, a difference of 31.4%. Also note that the male skull average in this sample is equal to the average Pantanal jaguaress (78kg).
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
You can argue all you want. The evidence is there.
Skull size is only one factor of sexual dimorphism but isn't the whole story. A Male Lion has a Longer skull than a Male tiger while females have similar sized skulls and thus a Male Lion would have more "sexual dimorphism" but just in skull size. Again, were talking about total size and Lions are exactly the same as Tigers when it comes to that and Jaguars and Leopards show the same difference between them as well, none show more or less comparatively.
Now in regards to prey, Congo Basin's #1 prey is either Red Duiker or Red Hog, depends on the area. So that means its warthog sized prey or smaller, this of course reflects in the 10-35kg mean bodyweight of prey taken in the Congo which is the same the other African Leopards from East and South. But the major difference is that Leopards have far more access to a wide variety of prey and let's not forget the amount of Ungulates, C. Africa has barely any compared E. and S. Africa which have many.
When you go there you really can understand this, in the Serengeti for instance, there is prey everywhere, especially ungulates which of course the leopard preys on often.
Warterbuck, Wildebeest, Herdebeest, Zebra and Kudu are all much larger than Duikers and Red Hogs.
And all of those species are preyed upon by Leopards, again the African Forest doesnt hold a candle to the savanah when we're talking about prey diversity and biomass.
Gorilla Predation-
Let's be honest, it's going to be extremely difficult to determine if the hair found in the scat is even a Gorilla, let alone trying to determine age, sex and health status. The frequency of predation on Gorilla is insignificant compared to predation of Dulkiers and Red hog, which means it is an exceptional event and not something that occurs regularly.
(04-24-2019, 12:37 PM)Luipaard Wrote: Central African leopards main prey for males are red river hogs. There's no doubt it would be a much bigger struggle taking it down than something like an impala which is the main prey for savanna leopards. Though the lack of more dominant competitors would certainly have some influence, the more impressive prey taken by leopards in the forest would be the main factor behind their more robust builds. And don't forget they also predate on forest buffaloes:
From 'Leopard food habits in the Lopé National Park, Gabon, Central Africa' (by P. Henschel, 2005)
Quote:The most important single prey species was found to be red river hog Potamochoerus porcus (Linnaeus), making up 20% of the biomass consumed, followed by forest buffalo Syncerus caffer nanus (Boddaert) and cane rat Thryonomys swinderianus (Temminck), each comprising 13% of biomass consumed.
From "Leopard attack on and consumption of gorillas in the Central African Republic" 1995 (by Michael Fay.)
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They even predate on 200kg adult okapis (!)
It's only logical that these leopards are bigger and more robust, it's an adaptation to take on larger prey.
Actually, even a 30-40 kg female Leopard might be able to kill a 200 kg ungulate.
The main point your study indicates is that the Leopards can feast as frequently on large animals without interference of other carnivores.
Since the jungle Leopard has freedom, it can kill large prey as much as it wants, and gain back all the energy wasted on the kill.
Remember guys the point is the frequency of killing big prey, not the capability of the leopard killing big prey.
For example here is a large South African Leopard with a Kudu Cow kill:
at 0:09, Rob mentions:
Quote:Not only is the biggest kill you'll see a Leopard make
^ This is the larger kill that a Leopard can occasionally make in the savanna.
Afterwards, a Lion steals the kill, and the Leopard may not be able to replenish all the energy. It will now focus on impala, steenbok, duiker and baby nyalas and wildebeest calves.
On the other hand, there were 3 adult Gorillas and 2 adult chimps that were part of the Gabon Leopard's diet. This indicates that not only can forest leopards make big kills more often compared to savanna leopards, but they can also gain enough nutrition without interference from a major competitor.
This is why there are more robust Leopards in the Central African forests.
